Boldly Leading in the AI Age: Valuing People in the Age of Technology with Minette Norman

00:00:00
Hi Difference Makers. I have a really exciting update for you. Many of you know that for the past few years I've been writing over on Substack. Some of you have been over there, some of you haven't yet. But there I've written some reflections and behind the scenes thoughts, deeper dives into global leadership, equity and the kind of topics we often explore here on the podcast together.

00:00:21
Well, today I launched paid subscriptions for the very first time on substack@Loriadamsbrown.substack.com so I'm very excited because I've been sharing all this for free for years and I'm so grateful for your support along the way. But you know, let's be honest. Women deserve to be paid for their work, especially women of color. For those of you listening and who are out there often expected to serve and teach and lead without compensation, it's awful. But launching paid subscription is one small but bold way.

00:00:55
I'm pushing back on that narrative because. The truth is your voice, your labor. Your difference making matters. And so does mine. So here's what this means for you.

00:01:04
If you're already a paid supporter on Patreon, you don't need to do anything. I've given you a free gift subscription to my substack for a limited time. Just my way of saying thank you. Check your email or head to patreon.com A World of Difference to get all the details. And if you're not a subscriber on Substack yet, this is the perfect time to join us.

00:01:25
You'll get access to thoughtful written content that complements what you hear on the show and and for a limited time, you can subscribe with 20% off the. Lowest price Substack allows. This community is built around belonging, global voices, leadership that lifts and content that challenges and inspires. And I want your voice in that room. So if you've ever thought I love what she's creating, but how can I support more deeply, or if you've ever wanted to ask, could you write more about that topic?

00:01:53
Well, this is your moment. Head over to Loriadamsbrown.substack.com and become a paid subscriber or or a founding member. If you want to help build this new space with me. Thank you for making a difference. Let's keep changing the world one brave voice at a time.

00:02:11
Welcome to the A World of Difference podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown and this is a podcast for those who are different and want to make a difference. Hey difference makers. A quick gut Check. Are you leading in a way that actually makes people feel safe, safe, seen and like they belong?

00:02:30
Or are you stuck in outdated leadership patterns that quietly drain innovation and leave your team checked out? Well, today's episode might be that wake up call that you didn't know that you needed, because I'm talking with Minette Norman, a Silicon Valley powerhouse turned leadership consultant who's flipping the script on what effective leadership looks like. She led thousands of engineers at Autodesk, and now she's coaching leaders across industries on how to create radically inclusive, psychologically safe cultures that actually work. She's the author of the Boldly Inclusive Leader and the co author of the Psychological Safety Playbook. And if you've ever felt like your meetings are broken or your culture's off or your team's not performing at their potential, this conversation is your roadmap to turn it around.

00:03:21
And listen. Don't keep this to yourself. If you care about building better teams, share this episode with five people you respect. Be that person who sends the good stuff. Because the leaders who are going to thrive in the future, they're the ones who are brave enough to rethink everything now.

00:03:40
Let's go.

00:03:46
Hi, Minette. It's great to see you and I'm really excited about talking about your work and your books and the difference you're making in the world. So a very warm welcome to A World of Difference podcast today. Thank you, Lori. I'm so happy to be here with you.

00:03:58
Me too. We got to know each other not long ago at an event in Palo Alto. And when we did introductions at this Alley to Valley event, both of us noticed that we were going to have a lot in common to speak about. And since then, you have sent me a couple of your books, which I also see behind you. If you're on YouTube, you can see these.

00:04:15
We're going to talk about these today. The Psychological Safety Playbook. Lead more powerfully by being more human and the Boldly Inclusive Leader. Transform your workplace and the world by valuing the differences within. Could we have more in common?

00:04:28
I'm not sure that we could, no. As soon as you mentioned what you did and what you cared about, I'm like, must talk to this woman. Kindred spirits from the get go. Well, I'm really excited to dig into this conversation. Already reading some of your writing, I felt like I was reading parts of my own story, which is really the power of story that we love here on the podcast.

00:04:47
So my audience is going to be really excited to get to know you. And we're going to get into some of the questions we prepare. But first of all, I would just like to maybe ask you a fun question. Are you a traveler? Do you like to travel?

00:04:57
And if so, do you have a favorite place that you like to go to? Yes, I am a traveler and I've had so much wonderful travel, both for vacations, but also during my career. I had a lot of business travel. Favorite places, hard to pick, but I am a big fan of Spain. And then I recently went to Portugal.

00:05:14
I love Barcelona, I love Lisbon, I love Paris. So there are many places I'm always happy to travel to. And I just love to explore the world and meet people from all different cultures. You're a good fit for us in all the ways here at A World of Difference. Shout out to all of our friends in all of those places that listen.

00:05:34
I also really love Barcelona and went there years ago with my family. And it's just. It's such a magical place like nowhere else. I love the architecture, I love the food. I actually have some friends from Venezuela, where I grew up, that landed there because Venezuelans over the last 20 years have really sort of emigrated into all kinds of places.

00:05:52
And so had a friend that showed me around and we got some great tapas and saw the Roman ruins and it's a really. I'm noticing a lot of expats are landing in Spain, Barcelona and other areas, Madrid even, because it is a great place to. To go if you want to experience life abroad. And it's a very friendly environment for business and types of roles that some of our expat listeners really enjoy. So glad that you have had that experience to travel both for business and pleasure, which is something I talk about quite a bit here, too.

00:06:22
Any times that you traveled for business that you added on extra days just for sightseeing, and any tips around that for people who are trying to navigate that? I did that a lot, especially because I had traveled to Europe before on my own, before I started business travel, but I had never traveled to Asia before. And so I was going a lot to Singapore and Shanghai. Those were the two places that we had offices and I had staff. And so I felt like, well, I want to see more while I'm here, because I've never been to this part of the world before.

00:06:49
So, yeah, I would often add on a weekend or a long weekend and go somewhere nearby in Europe that's so easy to do because things are so close. So I would often. I have friends in Europe. I would be like I'm going to be in Switzerland. Can we meet in France or Belgium else for the weekend?

00:07:02
So I did a lot of that FLorida flight to hotel to office. And it could be that you're anywhere in the world and you wouldn't even get to appreciate that because you are literally going from airplane to hotel to office. And so for me, it's always important to see, like, where am I? And so at least get a day or two to see where you are and to experience a little bit of what it's like to be there. And I feel like that was such an incredibly enriching experience for me to be able to travel to all these places.

00:07:27
I wouldn't necessarily have gone on my own, and I'm so grateful to that. I got to do that. Can totally relate to that. Well, I mean, I lived in Singapore for 10 years, and we had. There's a large expat community at the time.

00:07:37
I think there were about a million expats in Singapore during most of my 10 years that I lived and worked there. And we would have friends that came in on business and get to take them. Singapore has so many incredible sites to see. It's very easy to add on a day or two. And tourism is very clean and safe and friendly and run by their excellent government SO system.

00:07:56
But also it's so easy to go to places like Bali or Thailand or Vietnam from there. And so it always brings a smile to my face when people mention Singapore because it was such a special part of my time. And with the company I work with now, we have a place near Shanghai that I've been able to go to. And I look forward to actually extending my time into more places there because it's not an area of the world. I've discovered as much.

00:08:17
I lived in Southeast Asia, but China is a place I've never been. But in this current role, I'm discovering just the beauties and the vastness of the history. It feels like I would need a lot more trips there to really explore enough because it's such a vast culture. But I highly encourage people to do what you're saying, not just go from plane to hotel to office, but add on a little time to explore the culture. Because part of learning in business is learning to appreciate the cultures of the world.

00:08:43
And that is something I think we're gonna dig into a little bit today as we talk about, especially your boldly inclusive leader book. Because here on this podcast, we recognize nobody knows everything. We don't all have a corner on all the knowledge in the world. You and I sit here in Silicon Valley and there's some real geniuses that have founded companies that are global and have revolutionized the tech industry, and yet no one leader, even Albert Einstein, knows everything about everything. This is the beauty of inclusion.

00:09:13
We continue to learn more as we grow. And. And so you've written these two books, one on psychological safety, one on inclusive leadership. Give us a little high level of how these books are connected and these topics are connected. Yeah.

00:09:26
And it's kind of a funny story that I did not plan to write the psychological safety playbook because I was already writing the Boldly Inclusive Leader, and then I met, you know, the Boldly Inclusive Leader was my solo book, but the other book I wrote with Carolyn Helbig, and we met in a class on psychological safety and took a little detour to write that book. But in some ways, it's not at all surprising that I ended up writing these two books because the two topics are so intrinsically linked. And the way I like to look at it is psychological safety, which is the belief that in a group it is okay to ask a question, ask for help, make a mistake, knowing you're not going to be marginalized or embarrassed, and that there'll be no negative retribution after that. Psychological safety, that feeling and that experience in a group is the foundation for an inclusive culture, because inclusive cultures are ones where everyone can show up and know that they are valued and appreciated and respected for who they are uniquely, and they don't have to pretend to be someone they're not. And I don't think that you get to that feeling of inclusion and belonging unless there's this base level of psychological safety and that I can be myself as opposed to masking my identity or my personality.

00:10:36
I 100% agree. And I think, you know, we are seeing a lot of pushback in the country where we currently sit and work and live around some of these words that now have been understood by some and maybe misunderstood to mean something that they don't. So we're seeing a lot of shifts for legal reasons for people in these big corporations to change the language from what used to be diversity, equity, and inclusion. Sometimes they would add belonging, justice, various things into something other than that, to give new language around what was maybe misunderstood. But I think sometimes even a fair argument would be just because people have those values on a wall or the surface level DEI metrics, for example, doesn't mean they were doing the very hard work of changing the system to be inclusive.

00:11:23
So that means exactly what you're saying that psychological safety is something that must be cultivated for the people who show up to have the voice to be able to share their perspective or push back with a different opinion. So what are your views, I guess, in light of what you've written, being a subject matter expert on this, on what we have missed and why it's important to do the hard work? Yeah, I just want to address the language questions first because it's. It's, like, so prevalent right now in the United States and that I have. For example, I did a webinar last week, and it was based on my book, the Boldly Inclusive Leader, but the organizers asked me to change the title.

00:12:00
And. And that is because of. For legal reasons and because they get government funding. And so the topic was changed from Boldly Inclusive leadership to Human Centered leadership. And, you know, I am okay as long as we're still doing this hard work.

00:12:14
And as you say, this is not. I think a lot of the misunderstandings around what has been called DEI was that, you know, people were trying to stamp a label of like, okay, we have a diverse slate of applicants. Check, we're done. The real work, and I know you understand this so well, Lori. This is the work that you and I both do.

00:12:30
The real work is how do we create the conditions that if we do bring together a diverse group of people, and it can be any aspect of human diversity. That's the thing. It's not just race or gender. It is how we think, how our brains are wired, what our education is, what our background is. All of these differences, these are.

00:12:48
We don't. So I guess the thing that I want to say is that we don't naturally make an environment inclusive because we as human beings have this bias which is innate in all of us, which is called affinity bias. We're drawn to the people most like us. And so when we bring people together who are not just like us, you know, your whole idea of embracing differences, we have to deliberately create the conditions where it is okay not to conform, but to have that different perspective, to think different. And to do that, we have to do some very, I would say, very specific and practical things in how we engage in dialogue, how we run meetings, how we take input, how do we make decisions.

00:13:26
All of those things have to be deliberately designed to be inclusive, because by default, they aren't. They aren't. I mean, you look at the middle school lunch room, they are sitting by people like them. This is human nature. It takes courage.

00:13:40
It takes curiosity, empathy, to desire to know Other people's perspectives. I mean, I know that I myself have not struggled with any label of, you know, being what would qualify me in the United States for a parking spot where I could hang a tag on my mirror that showed that I might be in a wheelchair or have crutches or, you know, have been. I'm a veteran from a war and I have an injury. And so unless I was, you know, in my younger parenting years and was pushing a stroller, I might not notice that there was no ramp going into a building. So, you know, that type of perspective, I wouldn't know unless I bothered to notice or ask.

00:14:23
And you, you mentioned meetings. Both of your books, you write about meetings. What is it about meetings that is so important? Yeah, it's funny. People think I'm a little bit obsessed with meetings, and maybe I am.

00:14:32
And I'll tell you why I think it's, you know, first of all, when I was in the tech industry, where I spent 30 years, 20 of those years, I was in leadership positions, I spent the majority of my days in meetings, as do many, many people in the business world, in the academic world, we spent a lot of time in meetings. And what I observed, and it was really only late in my career that I was more deliberate in how to run meetings. What I observed is that meetings are usually a few people taking up all the airtime while everyone else remains silent. There were the people who were sort of the loudest voices, the most dynamic, dominant voices, the most well respected, and everyone else just sat back there trying to either get a word in edgewise or try to figure out what to say and how to be part of the conversation or withdraw because they knew their viewpoint wasn't really welcome. Why I think this is so important is that I think meetings embody the culture of the organization.

00:15:24
How your meetings unfold is probably a pretty good illustration of who has power and influence and who doesn't, who gets listened to and who gets ignored. And so I think we can change the culture in a positive way by being more intentional about how we run our meetings and how we ensure that we get to hear from everybody. For example, how we set up the meeting, how we prepare for it, by letting people prepare and read an agenda and maybe have some pre reading so everyone comes on a level playing field. And then how do we take turns, how do we interrupt the people, for example, who won't stop speaking? And that's something that I've gotten good at and comfortable with, although that can be really uncomfortable at first.

00:16:04
When you say Minette, hold on. Like, we want to hear from Lori, right? Like stop. And without offending someone, but at the same time making sure we hear from others. And so I think a lot of these things we don't think about, we just call the meeting and we kind of go as.

00:16:18
As we've gone, we've always run them. And I have seen very, very positive shift by starting with how we run our meetings and how we can really hear all the voices. And that's both literal but also figurative. Like when everyone can fully participate and share their ideas, then they feel valued and then they're going to do better work and they're going to be more willing to contribute. And then we really do start to embrace our differences by tapping into all the talent that may be remaining silent in your organization and not sharing with what could be breakthrough ideas because they can't find a way to get into the conversation in a meeting.

00:16:55
I'm wondering how that resonates for you. I mean, you do a lot of this work, right? I love it so much. I kind of wish I could bring you into all my meetings. I'm learning to enter, I'm going to meditate meetings.

00:17:04
Yeah. Yes, I'm sure you do. You know, I really struggle with the interrupting part, which is something I need to learn to navigate a little bit better in some meetings. You know, I think that meetings that I'm leading, obviously I'm trying my very best to, to make sure I, you know, ask the introverts who have been quiet what their perspective is, to give them that safety to share as much as they do or don't want to share. Obviously working cross culturally and starting off my career straight out of grad school here in the Bay Area, I went to Indonesia and worked in a nonprofit.

00:17:37
That was where I worked alongside the Ministry of Education of Indonesia. And so I was working on like a train, the trainer program, consulting and helping their high school English teachers with a program. And in Asia, in meetings or in training contexts or in academic contexts, you often, in many Asian cultures won't have people raise their hand, for example. So there's different tricks of how to really calling on people. So looking for the bright eyes in the room is something we talk about, especially in the culture in Taiwan and China where I go and obviously in Japan, all of that cultural nuance is really important.

00:18:11
But man, if you don't understand that cross cultural, cultural piece, or even that introvert extrovert piece, or even female and men and women dynamics in the workplace, you're gonna miss Some of the best ideas. I personally love having introverts on my team. I'm a big extrovert, but I have gained so much insight. They sit and observe, they see and hear things the extroverts miss. And I find it to be gold when they do share.

00:18:36
So, yes, that's my reaction to what you're saying. I'd like to have you in all my meetings. Well, you know, I learned so much, too. I also am extroverted. And.

00:18:43
And I had, I would say, probably the majority of my team members actually in engineering, mostly introverts. And I learned so much not only about how to. How to lead meetings, but also how to tap into some of these incredibly innovative ideas that we needed from people who are traditionally silent or quiet. And it's often not in the meeting. You know, that's the other thing.

00:19:06
It's like meetings cannot be every. And you can't expect to get everyone to speak up in every meeting. I found that you have to find other ways to bring out the ideas, and maybe you have, you know, an online whiteboard where people can suggest them or just other mechanisms for sharing ideas. And yeah, not everyone likes to speak in meetings. So how do we tap into this genius?

00:19:25
I like to talk about the collective genius of diverse teams. And how do we really source all of these ideas in different ways? Some of it, I think we have to have more silence. And, you know, that's one of the things we don't have a lot of in the business world, especially in meetings. It's like we have to fill all the airtime.

00:19:42
I actually love to build in silence for people to reflect and give people time to collect their thoughts, write down their ideas, and then share them. And that in some ways mitigates this extrovert bias that we have. Like, we think people are quick on their feet, are the smart ones, but it's not that. It's just that they're the fastest to speak, but they may not have the best ideas. So how do we hear from the quieter people who might need a little bit more time?

00:20:05
I love that. I love the building in the silence because, you know, even as an extrovert, I need that. You know, some people are verbal processors. I'm not necessarily a verbal processor. I do.

00:20:14
I do like to think internally. And what I've noticed is, especially when it comes to internal promotions, you'll see a lot of people get promoted in that kind of a system where talking. Talking makes it seem as if they're doing when they're not being rated Necessarily on outcomes, but they just, they talk a lot. Maybe they talk a good game, I guess is a thing we say. Whereas some of the very introverted, productive women in particular are often overlooked for promotions because they're not out there constantly talking about all the things they're doing, they're just getting it done.

00:20:48
So yeah, I would love to hear your thoughts on that because people listening around the world might be facing that kind of a situation when they're looking to either be promoted themselves or looking to promote somebody on their team. What would you say to them? You know, Lori, I've seen that so much, this bias towards like the loudest, most outspoken voices, those are the ones that often get all the attention and then they're promoted. They're given stretch assignments, they're given opportunities that quieter people aren't. And I remember, I remember this because I was leading a very global team.

00:21:19
I remember being in performance conversations with the leadership team. I was a part of, part of where I would say like, you know, I think we should consider promoting or giving an assignment to this person who might have been outside the US, in another country, heard leaders say, I don't know them, how can they be any good? I don't know them. Well, you don't know them one, because they're not in this office. Two, they generally don't speak up in an all hands meeting, which is when you'd have the opportunity maybe.

00:21:42
And three, we have to start looking beyond the most obvious because what we're getting is homogeneity. We, we're getting all the loud people, we're getting all the extroverts or even the people who are really good at self promotion, you know, talking a good game instead of the people who, you know, maybe not from the dominant culture, from a quieter culture where you don't speak up as much and where hierarchy really plays a huge role. So you're not gonna necessarily speak up when someone at a higher level hierarchically is speaking. So how do we invite, how do we make sure that we practice, promote and acknowledge and give assignments to the people that are not the loudest ones? And so I think one of the things that is incumbent upon anyone in a management role that can be first line manager all the way up to the C suite, is that they take the time to get to know the people in their organizations.

00:22:31
I mean, that is how I grew as a leader. I actually spent a lot of time on listening tours. I would go to all of our offices, I would have office hours and, and I would just have people come in and you know, tell me what they were up to, tell me what they cared about, what they were challenged by. That's how I actually learned who's who first of all, and maybe what some of our secret hidden talent is. And then also I learned about things going on in the organization that I didn't know about.

00:22:56
Because you know, often when you're in a leadership role you only hear what people want to tell you. And suddenly I was hearing more of what's really going on. So I think we cannot underestimate the need to get, get to know our staff members as individuals. What are their strengths, what are their aspirations, what are their talents, what do they need help with so that we can then give them everything that they need. And really not just to give them what they need, but to give them what they need so they can do their best work to contribute fully to this organization.

00:23:25
Right. So everyone benefits. I love that so much. Listening is something I full confession. I'm not a PhD in because it's hard work, but I.

00:23:34
When I developed our key leadership strategy at the company where I currently work about two and a half years ago, I put as our core foundational course Listen to understand. Because not only did I come into a company where I got our Glint survey data and then started doing lots of one on ones with 100 people or so just to listen to what was going on. And the pattern became very clear. Just actually the communication piece was a big piece of opportunity for us both cross cultural communication, but just flat out listening. The skills of listening to understand, which I do, I often do talk about a human centered approach.

00:24:10
I don't shy away from the word inclusion. I don't take government contracts, I don't have to. But I do also like the language of human centered. I think that is the future of work with AI being a partner for us to be productive. And I think the more human we are, the more we lean into our humanity.

00:24:26
Listening to each other to understand these facts and feelings and values, learning to ask clarifying questions when we don't understand that real curiosity. Even body language, which is over 55% of how we communicate, is huge. And it's different across cultures. But there is so much we miss when we don't take time to listen. And so I think that in business, at least here in Silicon Valley, what I've noticed is a lot of people assume if you talk a lot and you talk in an eloquent way about what you do, especially then and especially if you're a Man.

00:24:58
Because sometimes if women do that too much, we lose likability because it looks like you're taking too much credit for what your team does. So there's different nuances there. But by and large people who talk quite a bit are seen as more executive presence, having more gravitas and having more promotability when in fact somebody with more introverted insight who's been observing people's body language, nothing has been missed. They actually could sometimes have even more qualifications for that role. But you spent no shortage amount of time in this kind of work.

00:25:29
You spent three decades in the software industry. What made you leave? And you can be as vulnerable or as private as you want to about that and what compelled you to start your own business? Yeah, so I did, I kind of had an unexpected 30 year career in tech and it was a, it was great because I never even aspired to leadership. I started as an individual contributor and thought I can do that forever.

00:25:50
I was a technical writer, ended up in management and then bigger and bigger roles and had this very large VP of engineering role for my last five years in the industry. And I wasn't planning to leave when I left, but we had a leadership change. And you know, this is where, you know this data that we leave because of manager, we stay because of managers and we leave because of managers. And this is so true because our manager, our direct manager, has so much influence on our work experience experience which then translates into our personal lives as well if we're having a good or a bad experience day to day. So we had a leadership change and I got a new manager who came in and what's the.

00:26:26
I'm just trying to think of the best way to talk about this. He bullied me. I mean, and those were facts. This was, we, there was actually an investigation. I was bullied by him, I was retaliated against by him.

00:26:37
And I had a choice of either staying working under these circumstances which were, I would say, incredibly damaging to my well being and my self esteem. Anyone who's been through a situation like this knows that it doesn't. You just don't leave it at work. You go home and you take it with you. So I chose, you know, I was, in some ways I was at the peak of my game.

00:26:56
I was, I was doing my best, most impactful work and then I couldn't anymore. And so I made this choice and this was late 2019. I'm like, no, you have, you've done enough, you've had a great career time to do something else. So I left without a plan in August of 2019. And I thought, you know, I thought I was certain.

00:27:14
I knew I wasn't done working. I mean, I had learned so much, especially about leadership over that 20 years, leading teams. And I'm like, I want to help other people be better leaders because of everything that I learned quite late in my. In my career. So I want to help others do better.

00:27:29
And I thought I would go work for someone else because I didn't think I was entrepreneurial and I had never run my own business. But then an interesting thing happened, which is that another woman was starting a consulting business, and she wanted me to come work with her. I thought, great, I don't have to start my own business. And then she. She sent me a contract to sign.

00:27:47
And in the contract, she wanted me to turn over anything I wrote or created while working with her to her and her business. And it was this moment of, like, no way. This is what I have. I have my intellectual property and my knowledge. I cannot give this away to anyone else.

00:28:04
And that's when I made the decision, this is now early 2020, to start my own business. And so, timing wise, very funny. Just when we were shutting down, when we were locking down because of the pandemic in 2020, was when I said, I'm launching a new business. I'm going to be a speaker and a consultant. And I hadn't even written my book, but I knew I wanted to write my books.

00:28:24
And so I launched my business in 2020. And, you know, everyone's budgets were completely frozen for the beginning of the pandemic. But by late in the year, I had my first client. And now I've been doing this work as a keynote speaker, as a workshop facilitator. As I would say, I'm not a coach, but I am an advisor and consultant.

00:28:44
And then I ended up writing these two books. And so now most of my work is based on either the Psychological Safety book or the inclusive leadership or the intersection of the two. Wow. I just first want to say thank you for sharing your story. There are many in this community who have experienced.

00:28:58
Experienced workplace bullying. And that's one of the ways they're making a difference, is by either sharing their story or working really hard to cultivate psychologically safe workplace environments for others. And I. I have my own lived experience, which I've spoken about here on the podcast. And one of the statistics, in addition to what you mentioned about people leaving work based on their managers, is that the mental health that we experience is directly related to our managers, equal to our spouses, which is really horrible to think about when it goes wrong because we do spend so much of our lives at work, and if we are being bullied by the person who our mental health is so much in their hands, it is absolutely devastating.

00:29:43
And high performers are often targeted. Yes. And so I guess the U shape of what the research has shown is that high performers are targeted because they're often seen as a threat to the bully, but also low performers who may be struggling with various reasons related to a lack of inclusion, why they're low performers, but they also can often be targeted somewhere. If you kind of just stay average and under the radar, maybe you haven't experienced workplace bullying, which we're also seeing a bit of a rise of in certain generations that have observed their parents and people they know having been bullied at work. And so their desire to stay safe has often resulted in this sort of quiet quitting that we see to kind of coast and be average.

00:30:27
So they won't be targeted. Have you seen any of that in your observation at all? Yes, and I think I'm familiar with the research on bullying because when it happened to me, I really wanted to learn more about it. And I know there's this really fabulous research that's come out of the Institute for Workplace Bullying. And.

00:30:43
And so much of it resonated because it is really true. They were saying. And I was, you know, I'm not. This is where, as you mentioned, it's sometimes hard for women to toot their own horn because we are often then seen as like, oh, she's bragging or she's unlikable, whatever. But I will say I was very well regarded and respected and liked.

00:30:59
And bullies often target those people because they see them as a threat. So I think that I fit into that category. And I have seen. I've seen a lot of the. I am just going to say stay under the radar and quiet because I do not want to be in the crosshairs of a bully or a toxic leader.

00:31:15
And I've seen so many people who have a lot of talent, a lot of experience, a lot of expertise, just lilo. And so they're not fully contributing. And it's not because they're lazy. It's because they are terrified because of what they've witnessed. And the statistics on bullying.

00:31:31
It's pretty phenomenal. It's. It's something like. I forget now, I've forgotten the numbers, but it's more than 30% of the people who have been directly bullied. But it's something like 70% of the workplace who has witnessed workplace bullying.

00:31:43
I've seen. It's a very. You've seen that, right? I think that's about the number. And so think about that.

00:31:47
If like two thirds of your more than 2/3 of your workforce has seen bullying, they do not want to be the next victim. And so they don't want to be the contrarian, they don't want to be the troublemaker, they don't want to be the one who speaks up and maybe challenges things because Lord knows they don't want to be the next one. Right. And so then they just withdraw and do this quiet quitting kind of thing. And it's so damaging for the individuals and for the organization.

00:32:11
So damaging. And honestly, if, if you take empathy out of the equation. So if you're dealing with a leader who struggles with empathy, which is something some people just seem to be born knowing how to do and others have to work really hard at that skill. But either way, they are, you know, missing that skill. And they may be seen as one of those toxic rock stars, stars who get a lot done, but the organization sort of ignores the bullying complaints or treats the direct reports that have been bullied by this individual as well.

00:32:41
I guess that's sort of a collateral damage. But when we do these sort of risk assessments and we understand the finances, it's very. Not only risky for business, there's a lot of research on that, but it's also very expensive because replacing that talent and any of their tribal knowledge that they take with them is incredible, incredibly expensive. So even if you just look at the numbers, it's very dangerous for business and very risky to keep these toxic rock stars around and to just ignore the exit interviews of people who may have, you know, mentioned that, and then it might pop up on a glass door review here and there. And then that prevents other talent from maybe taking that job or word of mouth in the community.

00:33:16
So some of that is unknown that you can't really have data around. However, it is in my experience when I've seen companies keep a toxic rock star around that often it a lack of curiosity that is risky because at the end of the day, that person is not usually just bullying one person and they typically will not stop unless they are held accountable. Have you seen anything like that as well? I have, I have. And yes, they don't stop.

00:33:42
It's. The data backs this up also. Is that in the. I forget again, I'm sorry, I don't have the exact number. I wish I had the report.

00:33:49
But in my cases, it is the victim of the bullying who leaves an organization, not the bully. Right. So the bully, the toxic rock star sticks around. The collateral damage is the person who suffered so much under the bully, then they. The toxic rock star goes on to bully more people until eventually, usually at some point they are exited or they leave to go on to their next big thing.

00:34:11
But the damage that has been done, like how many people? And then as I said, like, it's not just the direct victims, but the people who witnessed it who says, like, they now think this is okay. In our culture, we can treat people horribly. And then there's the self perpetuation that goes on there. So I have seen it.

00:34:27
And unfortunately, I think, you know, I know you did an episode on. On toxic rock stars, didn't you? For your. Yeah, and I was listening to that and totally resonating with that. Like, we have to really address the problem at the source.

00:34:39
It is not the victims who are the. The problem and the collateral. I hate that term, but you're right. It's often seen as like, well, this guy's so brilliant. This person's so brilliant.

00:34:47
It's not always men. So just the person who is toxic is. Is brilliant and they're worth keeping around for the results. But you're forgetting all the damage, like what is happening in the wake of this person. So I think we have to deal with them directly and say, like, we just, you know, we know you're brilliant and we cannot accept this disrespectful, hurtful behavior.

00:35:07
And one thing's got to give, like, you change or you have to exit this organization. And I think the better thing to do is get rid of the toxic rock star and say that you care about the rest of the people in your organization. Yes, because I totally agree. Because what that does is it suddenly helps people's nervous systems that have been these silent bystanders watching it happen, which is that huge number, which is. We're not sure exactly what it is.

00:35:30
Somewhere around 70%, maybe more of people who observe it. And I'll put it this way. Have you ever seen the show? So I only recently started watching this with my husband. Okay.

00:35:39
I think it's the pilot episode. It's about these lawyers in New York City, and one of the lawyers in the firm, one of the partners, he basically, there's an intern that starts and it's his first day, and he's meeting with the intern and he calls someone else into the office, one of the other, I think, interns or maybe associates. And he says to him, you didn't get this done, you're fired. And he leaves the room. And so the new intern is the silent bystander observing this behavior where he was just cold heartedly fired for not for making mistake, which wasn't a huge, you know, firm altering type of mistake.

00:36:16
And that makes him suddenly start to probably fawn with trauma thinking, oh no, I could never push back against this person or question them or do anything wrong. And you know what we know now from the brain scan research. And I've met some incredible people who are doing leadership development in businesses related to some of that research. I was at a talent development conference in Chicago a couple months ago and met these two men out of Australia, neuroscientists who have a consulting for business. And they have these little pictures of the brain and they show the parts of the brain that light up when people feel they have clarity and they feel psychologically safe and all those things that brains and nervous systems need to thrive and work well.

00:36:56
But then when you have one where they aren't feeling psychologically safe or maybe they're being yelled at, shamed publicly, anything like that, then just a little part of the brain is lighting up so their full brain isn't available to do the work that we're wanting people to do. And so hopefully, at least that part of the research would be compelling to not have a scenario like this in suits where you use power by fear. Day one of onboarding for someone to make them just be so paranoid to do anything wrong that they'll get fired or bullied in that way. Have you observed anything around that type of power by fear where leaders think, well, I get so much productivity out of my people if I just push them really hard instead of really understanding how the brain works and how sociology and psychology work. Yes, unfortunately, I have seen this.

00:37:43
I had, I knew a leader who said, you know, people are motivated by only two things, fear and greed. Like, okay, that's a very, very cynical view of the world. And he led that way. Right. And so I also got really interested and that does not bring out the best, right?

00:37:58
That obviously doesn't because as you said, like I read similar research, I remember when I was still in my tech job, I read this book by Minette Norman called Social and he's a neuroscience researcher at UCLA who was doing functional MRA MRI scans to look at the brain under conditions similar to what you're talking about. Wasn't Specifically psychological safety, but it was inclusion and exclusion. So when you were part of a group versus when you were left out of a group and he was simulating this with exercises and he was observing the brain and what he observed is that when people are excluded, their brains light up with pain just as if it were physical pain. So our brains don't distinguish between physical and social or emotional pain. So like for me, when I think about the, the leader leading by fear and you know, people are only motivated by fear and greed and then me, me learning about this as a leader, that anyone who is feeling excluded, including myself, is experiencing pain, I feel like our job as leaders is to minimize that, to make people feel that they are part of this group and they can contribute so that they can do their best and we can all benefit as an organization rather than like if I just scare them and I'm never satisfied with anything, then they're going to work harder and better and faster and instead you're, you know, you know, they're just going to burn out, they're going to quiet, quit, they're going to preserve whatever they can of their well being and their mental health, their physical health and they're not going to give the max, they're going to give the max when you appreciate them, when you value them, when you hear them and you, you, you know, give them appreciation.

00:39:30
Like people need that, we need that, that, that dopamine hit when people acknowledge us and recognize that we're doing good work. I totally agree. And you know, you and I have worked here in the tech space and it's so exciting to be at the front seat of innovation with science and technology and yet the social science of how humans work best, taking in sociology, psychology, social psychology to understand way more than we did 20 years ago of how humans work, what's going on with brain science? So much brain research has come out of the last few years and even since the pandemic, we've learned more and more and are currently learning. And to see so many managers, so many founders, CEOs, executives, boards, really not dig into the social science that's so readily available because the more we get into AI, the more we're going to need to really deeply understand how humans work together in the best ways and position our workforces for the future of work, to future proof them for what's coming.

00:40:34
What are you seeing in terms of maybe if there's a CEO listening and they're trying to make these decisions right now, what would you say to them in terms of we don't want them to be left behind by ignoring this. What would be the cost or the risk of ignoring some of this information? I think it's so important that you're bringing this up in the context of AI because there's this, you know, I feel like there's this irrational example exuberance that there was around the dot com boom in Silicon Valley, like AI is going to solve everything and you know, there will be no more entry level jobs because AI is going to do it all. I think at this point, if you are a CEO, if you are a leader, what you need to pay attention to is not just the technology, not just what AI can do, but what are the uniquely human things that we must respect and that we must tap into. How do we get, as you said, how do we get humans to work together in the best way?

00:41:22
We are going to have to embrace these new learnings about neuroscience and, and social science and psychology that have come out and are really eye openening and it's not leading the way we led a century ago, it's leading for the modern age. And that means respecting fellow humans and treating them with empathy and respect and compassion and creating the conditions so they can be creative and they can be, they can be looking at ethical AI, they can look, be looking at what are the best ways we use AI as a partner to us as human beings. And so we cannot ignore the human beings in our organization. And I was just interviewed or I was just doing a webinar last week and one of the things that I said is if you are in leadership or aspire to leadership, I hope you like people because you have to care about the people in your organizations because they're doing the work, whether it's working with AI or not. They are doing the work, they are innovating, they are delivering your business results and you have to care about them and you have to create the conditions where they can thrive and fully contribute and tap into their ideas and innovation.

00:42:26
So that would be my advice to CEOs and leaders, is do not neglect the human beings. Such good advice really resonate with that. Okay, we're going to finish up with a 60 second lightning round. Just whatever comes off the top of your head. It's just fun questions.

00:42:40
Doesn't have to be well thought through, obviously. So do you have a book or a podcast that recently inspired you? It's funny being an author, I have so many books sitting around, but I will tell you, yeah, because I'm constantly reading great books, but I just Read a terrific book. In fact, I got to endorse it. It's called Perceptive by Rachel Radway, and it's about highly sensitive or highly perceptive people, which is about 30% of the population.

00:43:04
You can think of it as a form of neurodiversity. I knew nothing about it before, and I feel like my eyes were open. And I not only understood others, I understood myself better. I have people in my life in that category, and they're some of the very best people that I know. So glad that you shouted that out.

00:43:20
Yeah. Perceptive. Are you? Yes, perceptive. I'll check that one out.

00:43:23
You. Are you more of a coffee or tea person to power you on a tough day? Coffee. Me too. Dark black coffee?

00:43:31
Dark, yes, same. What's your favorite way to recharge outside of work? I have a few things. So one is I'm a big walker and a big hiker. And that's one of the things I do almost every day, is at least get out and walk somewhere.

00:43:43
And that recharges my body, but it also recharges my mind because I feel like when I'm walking, I often am freed up and get great ideas. And I'm also a knitter. I love to knit. I just have a sweater drawing here that I knit. So I often do two things at once, which is I listen to audiobooks, which I love, while knitting.

00:44:01
So that's why I can have two recharging activities at the same time. It's really great. I love walking too. And I live in a beautiful place where I get to smell roses in my neighborhood when I'm working from home on a work from home day or over the weekend. And where my office is, even though it's in Silicon Valley, there's a hiking trail not far, and you can see cows, which is people always think, what?

00:44:21
But it is that brain reset break. And there is obviously. We've talked about brain science research, which is why I am a big proponent of the autonomy in the workplace. Some people, all of us need to move to get our brains thinking. And sometimes being stuck at your desk in front of a screen, you're not having the ideas you need.

00:44:37
So we need to get out in the sunshine, we need to walk around. I even have meetings walking sometimes with people. That helps when I can do that. Walking is so good. So if you could sit down for a meal with any historical leader, who would it be and why?

00:44:49
You know how I'm really fascinated by. It's not so historical, but recent. I would love to have a meal with Madeline Albright, the former secretary of state, because she has, I'm sure she has some amazing stories and you know, she was such a trailblazer. And so Madeline Albright comes to mind when you, you know, as having not given that a lot of thought but just like she jumped to my mind. Can you imagine?

00:45:11
And ask her about all her little brooches that she. Her brooches, yes. Like so famous for that. Okay, last one is what one word would you use to describe how you feel when you see a team thriving? Inspired.

00:45:23
Good word. Thank you so much for being you, for sharing your authentic self with us today for, for doing this writing and this work. It's so, so important and I just really appreciate you. Thank you for the difference that you're making and for being on the show today. Thank you for inviting me, Lori.

00:45:36
You're welcome. Well, I'm going to have you hang out with our difference makers. But for now, for all of you listening, go check out the difference maker community@patreon.com World of Difference. See you there. This episode was packed.

00:45:47
And if you're like me, you've already thought of five meetings this week where you can start making the changes Minette talked about. Because here's the deal. Psychological safety and inclusion aren't nice to have. They're just business critical. And you heard Minette meetings are where culture actually happens.

00:46:04
Inclusion is a basic human need and leaders, you have way more influence than you think. So if something clicked for you today, don't keep it to yourself. Forward this to five people you admire. Your colleagues, your boss, that friend who always gives you great advice because you sharing this, it positions you as a thought leader too. And hey, don't miss a single episode that could help you grow your influence and impact.

00:46:29
Hit subscribe, drop us a rate rating and review. 5 stars if you think we did a great job and help more difference makers find the show. And for those of you in our difference makers Patreon community, we of course have got an exclusive bonus question with Minette and you do not want to miss this because she's getting vulnerable and real about a leadership failure that changed everything for her. You are not going to want to miss what she has to say about what she learned and how that experience went and her regrets and what she did even to repair in the aftermath. Until next time, lead boldly, love deeply, and never stop making a difference.

00:47:08
Thank you so very much for joining us today on A World of Difference. Whether you're tuning in from across the street or across the globe. I'm I want you to know this. Your voice matters, your story matters, and the difference you're making in the world is real. If this episode spoke to you, would you take a moment to subscribe, rate and share the show with five people who need it too?

00:47:32
When you share, you're not just spreading a message. You're building a community of people who believe in empathy, equity, kindness, and the power of listening to those who are different from us. And hey, I'd love to hear from you. What resonated with you? What's a question or a story you'd like us to explore next?

00:47:49
Reach out anytime, because this isn't just my podcast. This is our conversation. Remember, you were made to make a difference. So let's keep showing up together for ourselves, for each other, and for a world that needs all of us. Until next time, stay curious, stay kind, and keep making your world a little more whole.

00:48:12
Here on A World of Difference, we talk a lot about what it means to show up with courage, especially when the world tells us to stay silent. But here's the truth. Healing isn't meant to happen in isolation. We all carry stories of joy, of pain, of resilience. And sometimes we need a space that's just for us.

00:48:31
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00:49:22
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00:49:43
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00:50:14
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00:50:42
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00:50:57
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