Limor Bergman Gross: Crushing Career Stereotypes and Women in Tech Leadership

100:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,458You welcome to the A World of Difference200:00:04,458 --> 00:00:06,766podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown, and this is300:00:06,766 --> 00:00:08,606a podcast for those who are different and400:00:08,606 --> 00:00:12,382want to make a difference. Today on the500:00:12,382 --> 00:00:14,666show, we have someone coming to us600:00:14,666 --> 00:00:17,530straight from Israel. Her name is Lemore700:00:17,530 --> 00:00:20,718Bergman Gross. And for over 20 years, she800:00:20,718 --> 00:00:23,658worked as an engineer, manager and900:00:23,658 --> 00:00:26,342director of engineering and Tech IT. Now.1000:00:26,342 --> 00:00:29,446She spent the past five years to dedicate1100:00:29,446 --> 00:00:32,550her life to mentoring women in tech. And1200:00:32,550 --> 00:00:35,382she has a strong passion around helping1300:00:35,382 --> 00:00:37,910women to get to the C suite. She has a lot1400:00:37,910 --> 00:00:41,522of tools and strategies and tips for1500:00:41,522 --> 00:00:43,146people based on her experience of working1600:00:43,146 --> 00:00:45,946in tech and working up the career ladder,1700:00:45,946 --> 00:00:48,906as well as being a mom during that time.1800:00:48,906 --> 00:00:50,458And so we're going to talk today about1900:00:50,458 --> 00:00:53,454what it was like to work in tech and how2000:00:53,454 --> 00:00:57,162she can help women to rise in their2100:00:57,162 --> 00:00:59,806careers if that's what they desire to do.2200:00:59,806 --> 00:01:03,310She has a lot of great information and2300:01:03,310 --> 00:01:05,534work around just career development,2400:01:05,534 --> 00:01:06,914specifically as it relates to the tech2500:01:06,914 --> 00:01:09,214world. But a lot of her strategies are2600:01:09,214 --> 00:01:11,998helpful in all types of careers. And also,2700:01:11,998 --> 00:01:15,442it's a really helpful conversation to have2800:01:15,442 --> 00:01:16,706with someone like this because I know2900:01:16,706 --> 00:01:18,546there are many male allies that listen to3000:01:18,546 --> 00:01:21,046this podcast. So if you're a manager or3100:01:21,046 --> 00:01:23,046you work in a faith based space or you3200:01:23,046 --> 00:01:24,694work in a nonprofit, you're going to get3300:01:24,694 --> 00:01:27,222something out of this podcast today. So,3400:01:27,222 --> 00:01:29,514yeah, happy to introduce you if you've not3500:01:29,514 --> 00:01:31,754yet heard of her. So welcome to the show3600:01:31,754 --> 00:01:40,006Today, Lemore Bergman Griff hello,3700:01:40,006 --> 00:01:42,254Leymore. And thanks for coming onto the3800:01:42,254 --> 00:01:45,406show today all the way from Israel. How3900:01:45,406 --> 00:01:49,438are you doing today, Leymore hi, Lori.4000:01:49,438 --> 00:01:51,774Thank you so much for having me. I'm doing4100:01:51,774 --> 00:01:54,334great. It's a wonderful evening here. Yes,4200:01:54,334 --> 00:01:56,710well, it's an early morning for me, and4300:01:56,710 --> 00:01:58,402I'm glad that we got our time zones to4400:01:58,402 --> 00:02:00,786connect and we could make this time work4500:02:00,786 --> 00:02:03,186and really excited to get to know you a4600:02:03,186 --> 00:02:05,794little bit better and allow you to bring4700:02:05,794 --> 00:02:07,906your differences to the table today to4800:02:07,906 --> 00:02:09,654make a difference in our lives. Those of4900:02:09,654 --> 00:02:12,338us listening love to learn, and we love5000:02:12,338 --> 00:02:13,782bringing on thought leaders, subject5100:02:13,782 --> 00:02:16,146matter experts, and people who bring their5200:02:16,146 --> 00:02:18,154differences to the table to help us grow.5300:02:18,154 --> 00:02:20,234And so today, I'd love for you just to5400:02:20,234 --> 00:02:23,846start off with the introduction of who is5500:02:23,846 --> 00:02:26,534Lemore Bergman growth and how would you5600:02:26,534 --> 00:02:33,018describe yourself to our audience? So I'll5700:02:33,018 --> 00:02:34,686give you kind of a mission statement, I5800:02:34,686 --> 00:02:37,086think, that will describe me the most. I'm5900:02:37,086 --> 00:02:40,394on a mission to bring more women to the C6000:02:40,394 --> 00:02:43,934suite in tech. I do that by mentoring,6100:02:43,934 --> 00:02:46,530coaching, and supporting women in6200:02:46,530 --> 00:02:50,482different roles. And I bring all my6300:02:50,482 --> 00:02:53,442experience, all my years of experience in6400:02:53,442 --> 00:02:55,886tech. I mean, I was an engineer, a6500:02:55,886 --> 00:02:58,062software engineer, and grew into6600:02:58,062 --> 00:03:00,998leadership roles both here in Israel and6700:03:00,998 --> 00:03:04,066in the US. So that's kind of what I do.6800:03:04,066 --> 00:03:05,478I'm trying to make my own difference in6900:03:05,478 --> 00:03:06,998the world. Absolutely. That's why you're7000:03:06,998 --> 00:03:10,074on the show today. And I love that. And we7100:03:10,074 --> 00:03:12,038definitely need more female7200:03:12,038 --> 00:03:14,566representation. And there are so many7300:03:14,566 --> 00:03:18,394factors that are out of women's control.7400:03:18,394 --> 00:03:20,506But the things we can control are what we7500:03:20,506 --> 00:03:22,362also want to talk about today, as well as7600:03:22,362 --> 00:03:24,586maybe give some tips to our male allies7700:03:24,586 --> 00:03:26,350that want to be a part of helping make a7800:03:26,350 --> 00:03:29,454difference, too. And so as we dig into7900:03:29,454 --> 00:03:31,022this a little bit, tell us a little bit8000:03:31,022 --> 00:03:32,830about your career journey. You worked in8100:03:32,830 --> 00:03:34,478tech, you've lived in the US for a period8200:03:34,478 --> 00:03:36,650of time. You were in the Denver area. You8300:03:36,650 --> 00:03:39,186were also in Plano, in Texas for a while,8400:03:39,186 --> 00:03:41,450and now you're back in Israel. Tell us a8500:03:41,450 --> 00:03:43,474little bit about your career and why you8600:03:43,474 --> 00:03:48,950came to this mission statement. Sure. So8700:03:48,950 --> 00:03:51,142started my career as a software engineer,8800:03:51,142 --> 00:03:55,510so I went into computer science in8900:03:55,510 --> 00:03:57,674university because I thought that would9000:03:57,674 --> 00:04:02,554make sense given my STem background and9100:04:02,554 --> 00:04:05,722started my career in Israel. At some9200:04:05,722 --> 00:04:08,490point, realized I wanted to become a9300:04:08,490 --> 00:04:13,774manager. I have four children, and back9400:04:13,774 --> 00:04:15,566then, when I wanted to become a manager, I9500:04:15,566 --> 00:04:18,510was actually pregnant with my second child9600:04:18,510 --> 00:04:21,486and nominated myself to a manager position9700:04:21,486 --> 00:04:24,100and basically got my first manager9800:04:24,100 --> 00:04:27,218position when I got back from maternity9900:04:27,218 --> 00:04:30,306leave of my second son. So my big changes10000:04:30,306 --> 00:04:33,474in my career actually happened related to10100:04:33,474 --> 00:04:37,794new kids. So my first engineering10200:04:37,794 --> 00:04:42,182management position was after I had a10300:04:42,182 --> 00:04:46,614second child, and our move to the US was10400:04:46,614 --> 00:04:49,160after I delivered my twins. So I have four10500:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,614kids. The young ones are twins, and when10600:04:52,614 --> 00:04:55,594they're babies, we move the entire family,10700:04:55,594 --> 00:04:58,614all the six of us, to the US, to Denver,10800:04:58,614 --> 00:05:03,486Colorado in the winter of 2010. It was10900:05:03,486 --> 00:05:06,334kind of driven by my husband. His employer11000:05:06,334 --> 00:05:09,422really wanted him to move. And we realized11100:05:09,422 --> 00:05:11,422that it's an opportunity to do something11200:05:11,422 --> 00:05:13,374else. I mean, I don't know if I was crazy11300:05:13,374 --> 00:05:17,794or what, but I decided that it's an11400:05:17,794 --> 00:05:20,418opportunity and I had to figure out if I11500:05:20,418 --> 00:05:22,754want to take it or not. And I decided to11600:05:22,754 --> 00:05:25,518take this opportunity despite all the11700:05:25,518 --> 00:05:27,686difficulties and the unknowns. So moving11800:05:27,686 --> 00:05:30,630to the US had to reinvent myself,11900:05:30,630 --> 00:05:32,406basically. I mean, I continued my career,12000:05:32,406 --> 00:05:35,090but it wasn't so easy because I was on a12100:05:35,090 --> 00:05:37,506visa that employers, many employers,12200:05:37,506 --> 00:05:40,458didn't know what to do with it, and12300:05:40,458 --> 00:05:43,418obviously what was a new country for me.12400:05:43,418 --> 00:05:46,186And, yeah, and I continue on that journey12500:05:46,186 --> 00:05:50,622in the US, and we moved also in Denver,12600:05:50,622 --> 00:05:54,254and we moved to Texas. And along the way,12700:05:54,254 --> 00:05:56,654I found out several things. I found out12800:05:56,654 --> 00:06:00,906that I'm driven by supporting other12900:06:00,906 --> 00:06:03,354managers. So I started mentoring as a13000:06:03,354 --> 00:06:05,718volunteer at the beginning of 2017. I13100:06:05,718 --> 00:06:07,934loved it. I loved it. I got a lot of13200:06:07,934 --> 00:06:10,494positive feedback that also with my13300:06:10,494 --> 00:06:12,354growing passion to having more women, I13400:06:12,354 --> 00:06:15,154mean, as I grew in my leadership roles, I13500:06:15,154 --> 00:06:18,674saw fewer and fewer women there and fewer13600:06:18,674 --> 00:06:20,486role models. A lot of times I didn't have13700:06:20,486 --> 00:06:23,382any role models to look up to. Maybe13800:06:23,382 --> 00:06:26,738someone from HR, but like no executive13900:06:26,738 --> 00:06:33,210female at realized, I really want to14000:06:33,210 --> 00:06:36,154change that. And when we decided to move14100:06:36,154 --> 00:06:38,794back to Israel, I decided that was my14200:06:38,794 --> 00:06:41,114opportunity because we made a huge change.14300:06:41,114 --> 00:06:44,302As it is, we moved back. I had to leave my14400:06:44,302 --> 00:06:47,886job. I said, okay, that's my sign, that's14500:06:47,886 --> 00:06:50,254my cue that I have to make this change.14600:06:50,254 --> 00:06:54,366Love your story. I know are going to14700:06:54,366 --> 00:06:55,778resonate with our audience because we have14800:06:55,778 --> 00:06:59,566a lot of people who've moved abroad and14900:06:59,566 --> 00:07:01,826moved multiple times to multiple countries15000:07:01,826 --> 00:07:04,802for various reasons, for being expats, for15100:07:04,802 --> 00:07:08,658just immigration, and also because of15200:07:08,658 --> 00:07:10,770unrest in certain places where that was a15300:07:10,770 --> 00:07:14,514forced situation as well. And I have15400:07:14,514 --> 00:07:16,626twins, by the wAy, and I also moved. My15500:07:16,626 --> 00:07:21,322twins were born in 2007, and we moved in15600:07:21,322 --> 00:07:25,8142009 from Indonesia to Singapore for a15700:07:25,814 --> 00:07:27,606career move as well. And so I can somewhat15800:07:27,606 --> 00:07:29,740relate to, and they're my youngest, too.15900:07:29,740 --> 00:07:33,738So it is challenging. When I think about16000:07:33,738 --> 00:07:35,546women getting to the C suite. I know that16100:07:35,546 --> 00:07:38,222you've probably faced this, too. There's16200:07:38,222 --> 00:07:42,970so much performance, so much, so many16300:07:42,970 --> 00:07:45,106stereotypes. I don't know if you face that16400:07:45,106 --> 00:07:47,346in the US or what your perspective was.16500:07:47,346 --> 00:07:50,114And then also how that looks in Israel,16600:07:50,114 --> 00:07:53,822which is know every culture and how16700:07:53,822 --> 00:07:55,746cultures perceive women is really unique16800:07:55,746 --> 00:07:57,714to that culture. And then at the same16900:07:57,714 --> 00:08:00,066time, anywhere where there's sort of this17000:08:00,066 --> 00:08:02,646patriarchy, there's some similarities. So17100:08:02,646 --> 00:08:06,326do you feel like you were facing any sort17200:08:06,326 --> 00:08:08,474of performance bias for yourself or that17300:08:08,474 --> 00:08:10,954you saw other women facing, especially17400:08:10,954 --> 00:08:22,846around the time of having. Absolutely. And17500:08:22,846 --> 00:08:26,946I think that I saw that both in Israel and17600:08:26,946 --> 00:08:30,238the US. And obviously it's a huge17700:08:30,238 --> 00:08:32,754generalization. It depends on the company,17800:08:32,754 --> 00:08:35,186it depends on the manager and the leaders.17900:08:35,186 --> 00:08:37,970I mean, it varies, right? I cannot just18000:08:37,970 --> 00:08:41,286generalize a country, but yes, I've seen18100:08:41,286 --> 00:08:43,206that. Actually, when I was pregnant with18200:08:43,206 --> 00:08:47,414my second child, I was miserable at on.18300:08:47,414 --> 00:08:49,414Even before that, I was put on something18400:08:49,414 --> 00:08:51,686that I really didn't want to do. I18500:08:51,686 --> 00:08:55,034traveled quite a bit when I had my first.18600:08:55,034 --> 00:08:58,700She was a baby, and I traveled from Israel18700:08:58,700 --> 00:09:02,270to California one month and to Japan one18800:09:02,270 --> 00:09:04,462month to do something I hated and I wasn't18900:09:04,462 --> 00:09:08,302even good at. I was just used as a pond in19000:09:08,302 --> 00:09:13,326someone else's toolbox, and I didn't feel19100:09:13,326 --> 00:09:16,610like I had the support I needed. By the19200:09:16,610 --> 00:09:19,518way, women not always support other women,19300:09:19,518 --> 00:09:21,374unfortunately. So the manager above my19400:09:21,374 --> 00:09:23,774manager was a woman, and I didn't feel she19500:09:23,774 --> 00:09:28,118supported me as well. I don't hold grudges19600:09:28,118 --> 00:09:30,258and all that, and I'm not victimizing, but19700:09:30,258 --> 00:09:34,294I'm just saying, yes, there are biases to19800:09:34,294 --> 00:09:38,422make a difference. We need to rise above19900:09:38,422 --> 00:09:42,070those biases and see where we can make an20000:09:42,070 --> 00:09:44,938impact and what kind of choices we have.20100:09:44,938 --> 00:09:47,366So in my example back then, I had a20200:09:47,366 --> 00:09:51,434choice. I could stay or I could leave, but20300:09:51,434 --> 00:09:53,594I wanted to have another child. That was20400:09:53,594 --> 00:09:57,038one of the conflicts that I had. Like have20500:09:57,038 --> 00:09:59,070a child, not have a child. Right. You20600:09:59,070 --> 00:10:01,326mentioned about being a mom. That's one of20700:10:01,326 --> 00:10:04,414the challenges that we face as women, that20800:10:04,414 --> 00:10:07,266when we want to expand the families, then20900:10:07,266 --> 00:10:09,646we have to weigh in also the career21000:10:09,646 --> 00:10:12,462progression, and how is that going to21100:10:12,462 --> 00:10:14,494impact our careers? Unfortunately, it21200:10:14,494 --> 00:10:18,594shouldn't be that way, but it is. I chose21300:10:18,594 --> 00:10:23,046expanding my family. The interesting thing21400:10:23,046 --> 00:10:25,286is that as I was pregnant, this21500:10:25,286 --> 00:10:27,382opportunity for engineering manager came21600:10:27,382 --> 00:10:30,314up, and eventually I actually benefited21700:10:30,314 --> 00:10:32,940from it, but I didn't know that that way.21800:10:32,940 --> 00:10:37,180So I guess that there are biases, but we21900:10:37,180 --> 00:10:43,114have a lot of power to overcome them.22000:10:43,114 --> 00:10:45,310Thank you for sharing that part of your22100:10:45,310 --> 00:10:47,934story. I know that many people listening,22200:10:47,934 --> 00:10:49,946whether they are women and they've22300:10:49,946 --> 00:10:51,454considered having children, already have,22400:10:51,454 --> 00:10:54,446or they're a man married to a woman who's22500:10:54,446 --> 00:10:55,902also wanted to expand their family and22600:10:55,902 --> 00:10:57,506have watched their wife have to go through22700:10:57,506 --> 00:10:59,106some of these complicated decisions. It22800:10:59,106 --> 00:11:01,442can be really challenging. Or even some22900:11:01,442 --> 00:11:03,374people listening might be managers, and23000:11:03,374 --> 00:11:06,034they're also trying to figure out how to23100:11:06,034 --> 00:11:08,194not have any sort of performance bias23200:11:08,194 --> 00:11:09,814against the women that maybe directly23300:11:09,814 --> 00:11:12,438report to them. So all of these things23400:11:12,438 --> 00:11:14,550that we're talking about are super23500:11:14,550 --> 00:11:16,790helpful. When you think about getting23600:11:16,790 --> 00:11:20,374women to the C suite, what is your23700:11:20,374 --> 00:11:22,358perspective on some of the biggest23800:11:22,358 --> 00:11:27,334obstacles to overcome? So there are23900:11:27,334 --> 00:11:29,002obstacles that are internal to those24000:11:29,002 --> 00:11:31,062women, and there are obstacles that are24100:11:31,062 --> 00:11:34,142external. The internal ones are just24200:11:34,142 --> 00:11:38,030having a sense of a, this is feasible for24300:11:38,030 --> 00:11:41,710me. I can see myself sitting at that24400:11:41,710 --> 00:11:46,722table. I'm confident in my ability. I'm24500:11:46,722 --> 00:11:50,706worth it. I deserve it. I have a seat at24600:11:50,706 --> 00:11:54,014that table. My voice matters. I have a24700:11:54,014 --> 00:11:55,954unique voice. I'm different, but it's a24800:11:55,954 --> 00:11:59,410good thing. So those are all the internal24900:11:59,410 --> 00:12:01,814things that women. A lot of times, I mean,25000:12:01,814 --> 00:12:04,246I had that too, right? We understand that25100:12:04,246 --> 00:12:06,354we are different. We don't see role25200:12:06,354 --> 00:12:08,614models, we don't see anyone else. And then25300:12:08,614 --> 00:12:11,882we start kind of doubting ourselves25400:12:11,882 --> 00:12:14,106whether we actually belong there, whether25500:12:14,106 --> 00:12:17,754we are capable and so forth. The external25600:12:17,754 --> 00:12:21,706thing Is the biases, right? Those that are25700:12:21,706 --> 00:12:25,022sitting there already, whether they see us25800:12:25,022 --> 00:12:28,462as worthy, whether they see us as someone25900:12:28,462 --> 00:12:33,390that can provide value, although we are26000:12:33,390 --> 00:12:35,182different, although we bring something26100:12:35,182 --> 00:12:37,058else, because we are different, because we26200:12:37,058 --> 00:12:40,114are not part of the boys Club, because we26300:12:40,114 --> 00:12:43,518are unique. And a lot of times, and again,26400:12:43,518 --> 00:12:44,994I'm not saying anything that they are26500:12:44,994 --> 00:12:48,360doing it from bad intentions, but a lot of26600:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,266times. And this is why I am a huge26700:12:51,266 --> 00:12:53,542proponent of diversity, related not just26800:12:53,542 --> 00:12:58,070to gender. When everyone is alike and26900:12:58,070 --> 00:13:02,550everyone think the same, there is a basic27000:13:02,550 --> 00:13:04,522hesitation to bring anyone that is27100:13:04,522 --> 00:13:06,314different. I had it, I'll give an example27200:13:06,314 --> 00:13:09,834like I had in one of the companies, people27300:13:09,834 --> 00:13:12,090that brought, you know how it is, refer a27400:13:12,090 --> 00:13:14,974friend program. It's a great thing. But27500:13:14,974 --> 00:13:17,818what happened was that there were a lot of27600:13:17,818 --> 00:13:19,438referrals of people who worked at the same27700:13:19,438 --> 00:13:23,630team. And then what it created like an27800:13:23,630 --> 00:13:28,286internal club, closed club, of those27900:13:28,286 --> 00:13:30,466people who came from the same company. So28000:13:30,466 --> 00:13:34,754this is kind of the problem that it's like28100:13:34,754 --> 00:13:39,926a closed circle. Yeah, I've seen that28200:13:39,926 --> 00:13:43,174happen in more than one situation. It is28300:13:43,174 --> 00:13:47,046the truth that most people get hired in a28400:13:47,046 --> 00:13:48,614situation where they know someone. That's28500:13:48,614 --> 00:13:52,006just statistically true. And there's a lot28600:13:52,006 --> 00:13:54,378of reasons for that. On the recruiting28700:13:54,378 --> 00:13:56,966side, it is a risk every time a recruiter28800:13:56,966 --> 00:13:58,726brings someone new into a company that28900:13:58,726 --> 00:14:00,794doesn't know someone there, because people29000:14:00,794 --> 00:14:03,386can present themselves very well on paper.29100:14:03,386 --> 00:14:05,914They may even have good references. Their29200:14:05,914 --> 00:14:07,646LinkedIn may look incredible and they may29300:14:07,646 --> 00:14:10,286say all these things, but then, every now29400:14:10,286 --> 00:14:13,294and then you get someone that it wasn't a29500:14:13,294 --> 00:14:15,966good fit and you couldn't tell because29600:14:15,966 --> 00:14:18,026they didn't know someone. And so there is29700:14:18,026 --> 00:14:20,142that side. I know that people on the29800:14:20,142 --> 00:14:21,586recruiting side, and I've been on that29900:14:21,586 --> 00:14:24,766side in these interviews before, it always30000:14:24,766 --> 00:14:26,434helps to know you can trust this person30100:14:26,434 --> 00:14:29,234when somebody inside says, I know them.30200:14:29,234 --> 00:14:31,682However, the downside is that you get a30300:14:31,682 --> 00:14:33,990group think with people who are so30400:14:33,990 --> 00:14:36,870similar, and groupthink really inhibits30500:14:36,870 --> 00:14:39,846innovation. And in tech that's huge. We30600:14:39,846 --> 00:14:41,782have to have the ability to innovate.30700:14:41,782 --> 00:14:46,058That's exactly how these companies grow.30800:14:46,058 --> 00:14:47,754Another question related to this. You have30900:14:47,754 --> 00:14:49,702worked in tech for so long, and we've31000:14:49,702 --> 00:14:51,726recently had here in Silicon Valley, quite31100:14:51,726 --> 00:14:54,334a few tech layoffs because of what's been31200:14:54,334 --> 00:14:59,786going on in the last year or so. And so31300:14:59,786 --> 00:15:02,346there's a lot of people looking for new31400:15:02,346 --> 00:15:04,766roles. And today, speaking of LinkedIn,31500:15:04,766 --> 00:15:07,506there really is a piece of it that knowing31600:15:07,506 --> 00:15:09,714how to present yourself on LinkedIn can be31700:15:09,714 --> 00:15:13,586quite hard. And I think specifically, men31800:15:13,586 --> 00:15:15,822and women are often socialized really31900:15:15,822 --> 00:15:18,886differently around this. Self promotion is32000:15:18,886 --> 00:15:22,918really so much more fraught for women in a32100:15:22,918 --> 00:15:27,474lot of cases where it decreases likability32200:15:27,474 --> 00:15:30,530factor for them if they look ambitious or32300:15:30,530 --> 00:15:33,466present themselves. And yet there are ways32400:15:33,466 --> 00:15:36,074to do it that can maybe minimize some of32500:15:36,074 --> 00:15:39,126that. And you mentioned that you also32600:15:39,126 --> 00:15:40,746offered yourself up for a manager32700:15:40,746 --> 00:15:44,634position. So what advice would you give to32800:15:44,634 --> 00:15:46,938women and men who are trying to promote32900:15:46,938 --> 00:15:49,134themselves for a new role and how to do33000:15:49,134 --> 00:15:50,814that in a way that's going to make it a33100:15:50,814 --> 00:15:52,926little easier on the likability for women,33200:15:52,926 --> 00:15:56,226if there is such a thing? Yeah. So first33300:15:56,226 --> 00:15:59,650of all, when you are on the look for a new33400:15:59,650 --> 00:16:06,670role, you have to get into the head of the33500:16:06,670 --> 00:16:08,434recruiter, the hiring manager. What are33600:16:08,434 --> 00:16:10,550they looking for? First of all, so do your33700:16:10,550 --> 00:16:12,326research. I always recommend people I work33800:16:12,326 --> 00:16:14,614with on LinkedIn. Like for example, do33900:16:14,614 --> 00:16:17,090your research. Look at different job34000:16:17,090 --> 00:16:18,646descriptions, see what kind of qualities34100:16:18,646 --> 00:16:21,490they are looking for. We tend to think34200:16:21,490 --> 00:16:24,186inwards about ourselves. What do I want?34300:16:24,186 --> 00:16:27,674What have I done? No, first of all, start34400:16:27,674 --> 00:16:30,362with the opposite. Think, what do they34500:16:30,362 --> 00:16:32,702want? What are they looking for? What do34600:16:32,702 --> 00:16:36,334they value? Then ask yourself, where do I34700:16:36,334 --> 00:16:39,374fit in? What kind of skills and qualities34800:16:39,374 --> 00:16:41,786I have that are super valuable for what34900:16:41,786 --> 00:16:44,962they're looking for. And highlight those.35000:16:44,962 --> 00:16:48,194Make sure that you speak in the language35100:16:48,194 --> 00:16:51,620that they want to hear, that basically you35200:16:51,620 --> 00:16:54,526address what they are looking for. You35300:16:54,526 --> 00:16:57,246solve their problems. That's the biggest35400:16:57,246 --> 00:17:00,562tip I have. And overall, like LinkedIn35500:17:00,562 --> 00:17:02,838branding, that's a marathon. That's not35600:17:02,838 --> 00:17:04,566like one thing that you do when you look35700:17:04,566 --> 00:17:07,446for a job. It something I started doing35800:17:07,446 --> 00:17:09,986when I moved to the US. I had a LinkedIn35900:17:09,986 --> 00:17:12,202profile, like a bare minimum, and I36000:17:12,202 --> 00:17:14,378started nurturing that. And I do that36100:17:14,378 --> 00:17:16,090still. Now it's more focused on my36200:17:16,090 --> 00:17:19,814business. But that was a long haul that I36300:17:19,814 --> 00:17:22,746continued investing in, and it bear36400:17:22,746 --> 00:17:29,022fruits. I got all the time inbound request36500:17:29,022 --> 00:17:31,902from recruiters and hiring managers. And36600:17:31,902 --> 00:17:34,590even if you think that now is the worst36700:17:34,590 --> 00:17:36,914time, a lot of people lost their job.36800:17:36,914 --> 00:17:39,246Still, some companies are still hiring.36900:17:39,246 --> 00:17:41,646They're looking for some people in some37000:17:41,646 --> 00:17:43,666skill set. So there is always a need,37100:17:43,666 --> 00:17:45,906there is always an opportunity. Think that37200:17:45,906 --> 00:17:49,910the mindset of basically that there is37300:17:49,910 --> 00:17:51,958always abundance, there is always37400:17:51,958 --> 00:17:54,806something out there for everyone is very37500:17:54,806 --> 00:17:57,954important. Otherwise you sink into37600:17:57,954 --> 00:18:01,766negativity and there's nothing for me, and37700:18:01,766 --> 00:18:06,266that's not helpful. Yeah, it's so true.37800:18:06,266 --> 00:18:09,738And there is so much psychology around37900:18:09,738 --> 00:18:13,558being laid off or fired from a job for38000:18:13,558 --> 00:18:14,558people who've walked through that, that38100:18:14,558 --> 00:18:16,302are listening, you know what I'm talking38200:18:16,302 --> 00:18:19,854about. But it's a grief process. People38300:18:19,854 --> 00:18:22,670walk through a lot of shock, especially38400:18:22,670 --> 00:18:26,258when it was so unexpected. And then often38500:18:26,258 --> 00:18:28,978the goodbyes can be complicated because38600:18:28,978 --> 00:18:30,210sometimes the need to get out of the38700:18:30,210 --> 00:18:33,394office quickly happens. So picking oneself38800:18:33,394 --> 00:18:36,594up from that shock and grief experience38900:18:36,594 --> 00:18:38,742and the psychology around all of that,39000:18:38,742 --> 00:18:42,066while having to be somebody who's39100:18:42,066 --> 00:18:43,698promoting themselves to want to get hired39200:18:43,698 --> 00:18:47,746somewhere else, it can be a very difficult39300:18:47,746 --> 00:18:51,046mental health journey for a lot of people.39400:18:51,046 --> 00:18:53,594Do you have any advice for people as they39500:18:53,594 --> 00:18:55,914walk through that and how? Were there any39600:18:55,914 --> 00:18:57,146things that have been helpful that you39700:18:57,146 --> 00:19:00,826have seen along the way? Yeah, it's very39800:19:00,826 --> 00:19:04,666difficult. It's not easy. First of all,39900:19:04,666 --> 00:19:06,958griefing is okay, right? I mean, it's not40000:19:06,958 --> 00:19:09,038easy. It's a crisis. A lot of times it's40100:19:09,038 --> 00:19:11,402the biggest cris people face in their40200:19:11,402 --> 00:19:14,674lifetime. Right. Losing a job. First of40300:19:14,674 --> 00:19:16,866all, surround yourself with supportive.40400:19:16,866 --> 00:19:19,378With supportive people, friends, family,40500:19:19,378 --> 00:19:22,226anyone that is supportive. Stay away from40600:19:22,226 --> 00:19:24,482people that maybe bring negativity.40700:19:24,482 --> 00:19:26,642Because sometimes it can be that your best40800:19:26,642 --> 00:19:28,934friends or the people that you hang out40900:19:28,934 --> 00:19:31,702with the most, well, they may not be the41000:19:31,702 --> 00:19:35,558best people to hang around when you are41100:19:35,558 --> 00:19:38,562down, because some people are just41200:19:38,562 --> 00:19:43,366sarcastic, maybe they bring this negative41300:19:43,366 --> 00:19:46,010mindset. So just be aware of that. The41400:19:46,010 --> 00:19:49,642second thing is that volunteering can help41500:19:49,642 --> 00:19:52,202you, although it sounds kind of weird, but41600:19:52,202 --> 00:19:54,170that can help you actually build your41700:19:54,170 --> 00:19:56,718confidence. So think about, okay, I gained41800:19:56,718 --> 00:20:01,262a lot of skills. Who can I help? Like, for41900:20:01,262 --> 00:20:03,594example, when I started mentoring, you42000:20:03,594 --> 00:20:05,234cannot believe the amount of confidence I42100:20:05,234 --> 00:20:08,260got out of it. Just giving back to42200:20:08,260 --> 00:20:11,822someone, sharing my expertise, getting the42300:20:11,822 --> 00:20:15,074feedback, went long ways to my confidence.42400:20:15,074 --> 00:20:17,640So think about mentoring. Think about,42500:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,694okay, with all the knowledge that I gained42600:20:20,694 --> 00:20:24,214and who can I help? If you help someone42700:20:24,214 --> 00:20:26,502else, it boosts your confidence. You're42800:20:26,502 --> 00:20:28,274doing something. You're actually42900:20:28,274 --> 00:20:29,786identifying your skills. It helps you kind43000:20:29,786 --> 00:20:32,362of sharpen what kind of skills I have, and43100:20:32,362 --> 00:20:34,538maybe those people eventually can connect43200:20:34,538 --> 00:20:37,306it to some other people. Something good43300:20:37,306 --> 00:20:42,830will come out of that. Yeah, I love that43400:20:42,830 --> 00:20:45,978perspective. We can't control the43500:20:45,978 --> 00:20:49,070curveballs that life gives us, but we can43600:20:49,070 --> 00:20:52,186control how we respond. Right. And43700:20:52,186 --> 00:20:55,370sticking to what we know, being able to be43800:20:55,370 --> 00:20:56,946moldable and surrounding ourselves with43900:20:56,946 --> 00:20:58,594good, supportive people, I think that's44000:20:58,594 --> 00:21:02,018really good advice. And considering so44100:21:02,018 --> 00:21:04,642many companies, you said, like you said,44200:21:04,642 --> 00:21:06,686some have laid people off, but some are44300:21:06,686 --> 00:21:10,054hiring right now. And so a lot of people44400:21:10,054 --> 00:21:12,134are having this experience over the last44500:21:12,134 --> 00:21:15,746few years, especially a lot of remote44600:21:15,746 --> 00:21:17,720employees. And I know that especially for44700:21:17,720 --> 00:21:22,106women we see over and over again. McKinsey44800:21:22,106 --> 00:21:25,354and company just last month released their44900:21:25,354 --> 00:21:27,386state of women in the workforce research45000:21:27,386 --> 00:21:29,722that they do every year. And one of the45100:21:29,722 --> 00:21:32,150things that continually comes up,45200:21:32,150 --> 00:21:34,414particularly for women in the workforce,45300:21:34,414 --> 00:21:37,162is how important the ability to work45400:21:37,162 --> 00:21:39,566remotely or hybrid is for women in45500:21:39,566 --> 00:21:41,710particular, because of all the reasons45600:21:41,710 --> 00:21:44,206where women often are doing the second45700:21:44,206 --> 00:21:47,230shift of the unpaid labor at home, either45800:21:47,230 --> 00:21:51,886exclusively or the majority of iT. And so45900:21:51,886 --> 00:21:54,226that's why remote work allows them to stay46000:21:54,226 --> 00:21:57,374in the workforce in ways that they46100:21:57,374 --> 00:21:59,574otherwise would not be able to. But46200:21:59,574 --> 00:22:02,454companies onboarding new remote employees,46300:22:02,454 --> 00:22:05,126that can be challenging. So what advice do46400:22:05,126 --> 00:22:07,186you have for companies that are doing the46500:22:07,186 --> 00:22:09,820onboarding process mostly remotely right46600:22:09,820 --> 00:22:14,074now? Yeah. So I worked remote since 2016,46700:22:14,074 --> 00:22:18,086way before the pandemic. I think that it46800:22:18,086 --> 00:22:21,094starts with a mindset. When you work with46900:22:21,094 --> 00:22:23,662remote people, you have to be investing47000:22:23,662 --> 00:22:26,654more time in processes like structure,47100:22:26,654 --> 00:22:30,558more structure, and in being deliberate47200:22:30,558 --> 00:22:34,066about building relationships and trust. So47300:22:34,066 --> 00:22:36,734first of all, have a well defined47400:22:36,734 --> 00:22:39,422onboarding process, company wide, and then47500:22:39,422 --> 00:22:41,982department wide, and then team wide. Well47600:22:41,982 --> 00:22:46,606defined, well documented. I'm not a47700:22:46,606 --> 00:22:49,154process kind of fanatic. I'm not a process47800:22:49,154 --> 00:22:53,078oriented person. But when I worked remote,47900:22:53,078 --> 00:22:57,190I really made a huge effort in defining48000:22:57,190 --> 00:23:00,838onboarding and made a list of, okay,48100:23:00,838 --> 00:23:03,146someone starting, who is their buddy, who48200:23:03,146 --> 00:23:05,786is kind of accompanying them, who do they48300:23:05,786 --> 00:23:08,346need to meet in their first week? Who do48400:23:08,346 --> 00:23:10,074they need to meet in their second week?48500:23:10,074 --> 00:23:12,142Even I set up meetings for those people. I48600:23:12,142 --> 00:23:14,350thought that needed that extra kind of48700:23:14,350 --> 00:23:19,200help facilitating that define 30, 60, 9048800:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,794day plan and what success. So be48900:23:22,794 --> 00:23:25,106deliberate about setting even more than49000:23:25,106 --> 00:23:26,626when you work in an office. Because when49100:23:26,626 --> 00:23:28,654you work in an office, you have more than49200:23:28,654 --> 00:23:30,594informal interactions. You have to invest49300:23:30,594 --> 00:23:35,810more time in setting the expectations, in49400:23:35,810 --> 00:23:39,202building the onboarding process and then49500:23:39,202 --> 00:23:41,862checking in with people deliberately.49600:23:41,862 --> 00:23:43,606Again, you don't have the opportunity to49700:23:43,606 --> 00:23:47,186see them in the coffee break or getting to49800:23:47,186 --> 00:23:49,106lunch. So you have to be deliberate about49900:23:49,106 --> 00:23:51,974it, checking in, maybe reaching out in50000:23:51,974 --> 00:23:55,702slack, maybe setting up some time. I was50100:23:55,702 --> 00:23:57,706fanatic with one on ones, and believe me,50200:23:57,706 --> 00:24:01,510when you manage engineers, they don't like50300:24:01,510 --> 00:24:03,722meetings, even more so than managers.50400:24:03,722 --> 00:24:05,694Right? And I said, why do I need to meet50500:24:05,694 --> 00:24:08,494with you? And I said, well, you need to50600:24:08,494 --> 00:24:10,986meet with me because I want to see how50700:24:10,986 --> 00:24:14,590you're doing. Even if we just spend five50800:24:14,590 --> 00:24:16,626minutes, you tell me everything is fine,50900:24:16,626 --> 00:24:19,294and then we say bye until next week,51000:24:19,294 --> 00:24:22,498that's fine. That kind of force, that kind51100:24:22,498 --> 00:24:25,506of thing. Because sometimes things come up51200:24:25,506 --> 00:24:29,746and if you don't have that meeting, I will51300:24:29,746 --> 00:24:32,046not be aware of that. I don't know what51400:24:32,046 --> 00:24:33,654someone is going through if I don't see51500:24:33,654 --> 00:24:35,298them, if I don't see their face, if I51600:24:35,298 --> 00:24:37,462don't see like maybe they're going through51700:24:37,462 --> 00:24:40,406something in life. I have no ability to51800:24:40,406 --> 00:24:43,180see that when they are not next to me.51900:24:43,180 --> 00:24:47,306Yeah, so good. Really helpful. Because I52000:24:47,306 --> 00:24:49,098think the onboarding experience, we have52100:24:49,098 --> 00:24:50,954all this research to show, like how you52200:24:50,954 --> 00:24:52,858start people off, it really sets the tone52300:24:52,858 --> 00:24:54,666for how they're going to feel about the52400:24:54,666 --> 00:24:57,086company going forward. And you really get52500:24:57,086 --> 00:24:58,942one chance to do that well, and it's not52600:24:58,942 --> 00:25:00,606easy, it's very time consuming. But I52700:25:00,606 --> 00:25:02,046think that hitting the highlights, like52800:25:02,046 --> 00:25:03,854you mentioned, are really important. And52900:25:03,854 --> 00:25:07,374having those open communications too53000:25:07,374 --> 00:25:08,658remote teams, like you mentioned, you have53100:25:08,658 --> 00:25:10,674to work a lot on building relationships53200:25:10,674 --> 00:25:13,474and building trust. Any tips around that53300:25:13,474 --> 00:25:17,166for people who may be know, we have global53400:25:17,166 --> 00:25:19,282workforce know? So you might have somebody53500:25:19,282 --> 00:25:23,346living here in California and they know53600:25:23,346 --> 00:25:25,046interactions with a remote team in China53700:25:25,046 --> 00:25:28,434or Taiwan. And so they're not only53800:25:28,434 --> 00:25:31,862opposite time zones, but also cultural53900:25:31,862 --> 00:25:34,346communication is so different. One might54000:25:34,346 --> 00:25:36,154be more of a direct communicator, one54100:25:36,154 --> 00:25:39,110might be more of a high context54200:25:39,110 --> 00:25:41,722communication. There's so many nuances54300:25:41,722 --> 00:25:43,626there. Any tips on how to build54400:25:43,626 --> 00:25:45,306relationships and trust with these remote54500:25:45,306 --> 00:25:49,914global teams? Absolutely. So obviously,54600:25:49,914 --> 00:25:52,094it's much, much more challenging when you54700:25:52,094 --> 00:25:54,926work with people from a totally different54800:25:54,926 --> 00:25:58,100culture. You have to first of all,54900:25:58,100 --> 00:26:02,466understand that they are different. So you55000:26:02,466 --> 00:26:06,478need to start getting to know them,55100:26:06,478 --> 00:26:09,010understanding their motivations,55200:26:09,010 --> 00:26:11,206understanding how they like to work, how55300:26:11,206 --> 00:26:12,966they like to communicate. What do they55400:26:12,966 --> 00:26:14,646need from you? And in order to know that,55500:26:14,646 --> 00:26:16,840you need to ask. There is no way you can55600:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,534guess asking what are they expecting from55700:26:20,534 --> 00:26:22,550you? What do they need from you as their55800:26:22,550 --> 00:26:24,346manager? What is important to them, what55900:26:24,346 --> 00:26:27,546are their goals? What kind of environment56000:26:27,546 --> 00:26:30,634do they need to succeed? So just asking. I56100:26:30,634 --> 00:26:33,434mean, sometimes people are, especially in56200:26:33,434 --> 00:26:36,574cultures that are not very open. They may56300:26:36,574 --> 00:26:38,846not elaborate if you will not ask. So you56400:26:38,846 --> 00:26:43,774need to be a great at asking questions and56500:26:43,774 --> 00:26:47,078be curious instead of making assumptions.56600:26:47,078 --> 00:26:50,718Adopt curiosity over judgment and56700:26:50,718 --> 00:26:53,186assumptions, because we judge people when56800:26:53,186 --> 00:26:56,114we look from our own lenses and someone56900:26:56,114 --> 00:26:58,462that may operate on a completely different57000:26:58,462 --> 00:26:59,814operating system, right? I mean, they have57100:26:59,814 --> 00:27:02,134their own values and the way they operate57200:27:02,134 --> 00:27:04,194is totally different. And then we make57300:27:04,194 --> 00:27:06,310assumptions and we judge them. So be57400:27:06,310 --> 00:27:11,330curious. Really good. I love that the57500:27:11,330 --> 00:27:13,386curiosity is what leads to knowledge. And57600:27:13,386 --> 00:27:15,286if we don't have that curiosity, then we57700:27:15,286 --> 00:27:18,106don't know. And knowing people and knowing57800:27:18,106 --> 00:27:20,266them deeply and knowing them well is a way57900:27:20,266 --> 00:27:23,018to build trust and doing what we say we're58000:27:23,018 --> 00:27:25,886going to do and doing our best with each58100:27:25,886 --> 00:27:29,434other. And I do really appreciate that58200:27:29,434 --> 00:27:30,606perspective because it is so true. I've58300:27:30,606 --> 00:27:33,114found it to be true again and again.58400:27:33,114 --> 00:27:36,386Communication is really key there. Some58500:27:36,386 --> 00:27:38,578people struggle, especially remotely when58600:27:38,578 --> 00:27:41,726it comes to sort of delegating. And as58700:27:41,726 --> 00:27:44,226leaders and managers and organizations58800:27:44,226 --> 00:27:45,650where there's a lot on our plate,58900:27:45,650 --> 00:27:47,426sometimes you feel like there's much more59000:27:47,426 --> 00:27:48,966than you can accomplish in a given week59100:27:48,966 --> 00:27:50,966because some of these companies that some59200:27:50,966 --> 00:27:53,926of us work for just move fast and there's59300:27:53,926 --> 00:27:58,246a lot expected of us. And yet delegation59400:27:58,246 --> 00:28:00,486can be a really big challenge for a lot of59500:28:00,486 --> 00:28:02,922managers and leaders. Do you have any tips59600:28:02,922 --> 00:28:07,500about that for people? Yeah, absolutely.59700:28:07,500 --> 00:28:11,434So it's an acquired skill. First of all, I59800:28:11,434 --> 00:28:15,466think that you need to ask yourself, what59900:28:15,466 --> 00:28:17,982are the things that I do that makes the60000:28:17,982 --> 00:28:20,606most impact? So looking at all the things60100:28:20,606 --> 00:28:22,990that you do, first of all, and assessing60200:28:22,990 --> 00:28:25,006impact, the things that you do that maybe60300:28:25,006 --> 00:28:28,194are not making the most impact, thinking,60400:28:28,194 --> 00:28:30,850okay, who is maybe a better fit to do60500:28:30,850 --> 00:28:32,802them? Maybe it's someone from your team,60600:28:32,802 --> 00:28:35,282maybe someone else. I don't know. The60700:28:35,282 --> 00:28:38,594other way to look about it is if I60800:28:38,594 --> 00:28:41,218delegate something to someone. Maybe60900:28:41,218 --> 00:28:43,218that's not like, for example, when61000:28:43,218 --> 00:28:45,670engineers grow to be managers, it's very61100:28:45,670 --> 00:28:48,614difficult for them to let go of technical61200:28:48,614 --> 00:28:51,394stuff that they used to do, maybe taking61300:28:51,394 --> 00:28:53,866architecture decisions, making. But then61400:28:53,866 --> 00:28:55,962you need to ask yourself, is it the best61500:28:55,962 --> 00:28:58,774use of our time? Because maybe I'm a great61600:28:58,774 --> 00:29:00,698technical engineer, but now I'm a manager,61700:29:00,698 --> 00:29:03,150so I have other things to worry about. And61800:29:03,150 --> 00:29:07,194maybe I'm most effective in nurturing my61900:29:07,194 --> 00:29:09,326teams, helping them grow, building62000:29:09,326 --> 00:29:11,102relationship with product, I don't know,62100:29:11,102 --> 00:29:14,298whatever the case may be. And then if I62200:29:14,298 --> 00:29:16,606delegate those technical stuff to someone62300:29:16,606 --> 00:29:19,282in my team, that's another way to help62400:29:19,282 --> 00:29:21,874them grow. So it's not just that I free up62500:29:21,874 --> 00:29:24,862my time to think that I can make a greater62600:29:24,862 --> 00:29:28,166impact, but also I free up my time to help62700:29:28,166 --> 00:29:33,298someone else progress in their careers.62800:29:33,298 --> 00:29:35,974It's a great perspective. Yeah. When we62900:29:35,974 --> 00:29:39,046can let things go a little bit, it is a63000:29:39,046 --> 00:29:41,750way to develop leaders, and that's hard. I63100:29:41,750 --> 00:29:44,202think you and I are both parents, and it's63200:29:44,202 --> 00:29:45,562something that parents have to walk63300:29:45,562 --> 00:29:48,886through. So I always feel sad when I see63400:29:48,886 --> 00:29:51,174organizations that are so biased against63500:29:51,174 --> 00:29:53,206moms or a lot of this narrative that says63600:29:53,206 --> 00:29:55,838moms are lazy or not capable at work. And63700:29:55,838 --> 00:29:57,466I just think, why wouldn't you want to63800:29:57,466 --> 00:29:59,662hire moms? Most moms I know are great63900:29:59,662 --> 00:30:01,166project managers at home. They're having64000:30:01,166 --> 00:30:04,154to learn to delegate, to raise little64100:30:04,154 --> 00:30:07,114humans into adults and help them leave the64200:30:07,114 --> 00:30:09,730nest one day. I mean, this is a years long64300:30:09,730 --> 00:30:11,186process that moms are having to make sure64400:30:11,186 --> 00:30:12,958the catering is done at home, whether64500:30:12,958 --> 00:30:15,394they're cooking it or outsourcing it,64600:30:15,394 --> 00:30:17,218making sure supplies are always stocked in64700:30:17,218 --> 00:30:19,842the warehouse, aka the cabinets and the64800:30:19,842 --> 00:30:21,766pantry. Right. We have a lot of skills64900:30:21,766 --> 00:30:25,218that we bring, but it does require65000:30:25,218 --> 00:30:27,366delegation as a parent. And so we see that65100:30:27,366 --> 00:30:30,018in managers too. It can be hard to. You65200:30:30,018 --> 00:30:32,070don't think as a parent your kid is quite65300:30:32,070 --> 00:30:33,866ready sometimes, but you test it out a65400:30:33,866 --> 00:30:35,974little bit. Right? And the same with65500:30:35,974 --> 00:30:37,322managers. Maybe you're not sure if65600:30:37,322 --> 00:30:39,286somebody that directly reports to you65700:30:39,286 --> 00:30:41,446feels 100% ready for that task, but you65800:30:41,446 --> 00:30:43,934walk alongside, you do this model assist,65900:30:43,934 --> 00:30:45,918watch and leave kind of process that a lot66000:30:45,918 --> 00:30:49,454of us use. Right? Yeah. And sometimes66100:30:49,454 --> 00:30:52,000people just have to restructure things66200:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,366too. I'm thinking right now, you're66300:30:56,366 --> 00:30:58,562talking about being an engineer, and the66400:30:58,562 --> 00:31:00,462company I work in, we have a lot of66500:31:00,462 --> 00:31:03,118engineers as well. And my oldest son is66600:31:03,118 --> 00:31:05,620studying to be an engineer and so familiar66700:31:05,620 --> 00:31:08,806with that sort of way of thinking and that66800:31:08,806 --> 00:31:11,938way of working. I think in a lot of66900:31:11,938 --> 00:31:15,414engineering situations, not exclusively by67000:31:15,414 --> 00:31:17,366any means, but you tend to get a lot more67100:31:17,366 --> 00:31:20,086sort of introverts in a role like that.67200:31:20,086 --> 00:31:21,674And so if you have somebody who's a little67300:31:21,674 --> 00:31:24,986more introverted, and then they're needing67400:31:24,986 --> 00:31:27,482to grow into a manager role or even learn67500:31:27,482 --> 00:31:29,914to network, do you have any tips for67600:31:29,914 --> 00:31:31,838people that are on the introverted side67700:31:31,838 --> 00:31:33,678that are having to sort of build these67800:31:33,678 --> 00:31:36,366relationship skills? I know, it's so67900:31:36,366 --> 00:31:42,174difficult. I'm an introvert myself. I68000:31:42,174 --> 00:31:46,142think that the best way would be to see68100:31:46,142 --> 00:31:48,466what areas you're passionate about and how68200:31:48,466 --> 00:31:50,530can you help others. That's a great first68300:31:50,530 --> 00:31:53,570step, right? To build kind of to network,68400:31:53,570 --> 00:31:56,378help other people speak on an area that68500:31:56,378 --> 00:31:58,514you're passionate about. Even the most68600:31:58,514 --> 00:32:03,106introverted persons, and I've managed very68700:32:03,106 --> 00:32:06,390introverted engineers, when you find68800:32:06,390 --> 00:32:08,150something that they are very passionate68900:32:08,150 --> 00:32:10,154about, they can talk all day long about69000:32:10,154 --> 00:32:12,934it. So find those areas where you're69100:32:12,934 --> 00:32:15,002passionate, where you're interested, and69200:32:15,002 --> 00:32:16,790find opportunities to share that69300:32:16,790 --> 00:32:19,718knowledge, and it can be with just one69400:32:19,718 --> 00:32:22,634individuals maybe in some group setup,69500:32:22,634 --> 00:32:25,850maybe eventually, maybe at a conference.69600:32:25,850 --> 00:32:28,334Conferences are great ways to get out of69700:32:28,334 --> 00:32:30,766your comfort zone. And I'll tell you, it69800:32:30,766 --> 00:32:32,682was very difficult for me to go to69900:32:32,682 --> 00:32:34,626conferences and network and all that. It70000:32:34,626 --> 00:32:38,174was not easy, but I kind of deliberately70100:32:38,174 --> 00:32:41,406decided to go there, despite my nature, to70200:32:41,406 --> 00:32:46,302avoid those situations. So follow just the70300:32:46,302 --> 00:32:49,446things that you feel like you are more70400:32:49,446 --> 00:32:53,042easy to talk about. And also finding70500:32:53,042 --> 00:32:55,398opportunities to collaborate with people.70600:32:55,398 --> 00:32:58,326Like for example, hackathons are great70700:32:58,326 --> 00:33:00,774ways to kind of get to know people, open70800:33:00,774 --> 00:33:02,890source projects. So find those70900:33:02,890 --> 00:33:06,234opportunities to meet people on areas that71000:33:06,234 --> 00:33:09,126you feel super comfortable, super71100:33:09,126 --> 00:33:11,286passionate about. That will make it just71200:33:11,286 --> 00:33:13,850easier than just network with someone71300:33:13,850 --> 00:33:15,806because we tend to think of networking.71400:33:15,806 --> 00:33:18,574Oh, I just go and talk with someone about71500:33:18,574 --> 00:33:20,846their life, right? Or talk about, I don't71600:33:20,846 --> 00:33:22,574know what to talk about. So talk about71700:33:22,574 --> 00:33:25,682things that you feel comfortable talking71800:33:25,682 --> 00:33:27,998about. Be a geek and just talk about the71900:33:27,998 --> 00:33:31,554techie stuff. Love that advice. That's72000:33:31,554 --> 00:33:35,634really great advice. Yeah. I think that72100:33:35,634 --> 00:33:37,618for most introverts that I know, chitchat72200:33:37,618 --> 00:33:40,066can be really uncomfortable, but that is72300:33:40,066 --> 00:33:41,638really good advice. Just geek out on what72400:33:41,638 --> 00:33:43,782you know and talk about what you know, and72500:33:43,782 --> 00:33:45,014somebody out there is going to love it72600:33:45,014 --> 00:33:46,662too. And that's part of networking, which72700:33:46,662 --> 00:33:50,058is really great. I want to talk about this72800:33:50,058 --> 00:33:55,370a little bit. One of the challenges I hear72900:33:55,370 --> 00:33:57,766about every now and then in the global73000:33:57,766 --> 00:34:00,426leadership and development work I do here73100:34:00,426 --> 00:34:03,094is sometimes people who are managers, they73200:34:03,094 --> 00:34:05,840have a direct report and they're seeing73300:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,606some performance issues, and maybe they73400:34:08,606 --> 00:34:10,346don't even know why. It's just that73500:34:10,346 --> 00:34:12,906there's deadlines that are being missed or73600:34:12,906 --> 00:34:16,706there's work that's not being done up to73700:34:16,706 --> 00:34:20,078the expectation. Various types of73800:34:20,078 --> 00:34:23,778performance issues that may be unknown as73900:34:23,778 --> 00:34:26,402to what the reasons are with their team.74000:34:26,402 --> 00:34:28,342What strategies do you recommend when74100:34:28,342 --> 00:34:30,246somebody faces that on their team that74200:34:30,246 --> 00:34:32,470they need to have a difficult conversation74300:34:32,470 --> 00:34:34,950with? Yeah, and this is extremely74400:34:34,950 --> 00:34:37,650difficult for all managers, especially new74500:34:37,650 --> 00:34:41,654managers. Always difficult to have those74600:34:41,654 --> 00:34:44,374uncomfortable conversations. My first74700:34:44,374 --> 00:34:47,162advice would be sticking with facts,74800:34:47,162 --> 00:34:51,222trying to be less emotional about it and74900:34:51,222 --> 00:34:56,330less opinionated. So try to avoid75000:34:56,330 --> 00:35:00,234sentences that start with I think, I feel.75100:35:00,234 --> 00:35:06,882Replace them with I observed, I saw. So75200:35:06,882 --> 00:35:10,594use data, use observation. Use things that75300:35:10,594 --> 00:35:14,686are neutral. Right? I mean, it's not an75400:35:14,686 --> 00:35:18,422opinion, it's not a feeling, it's data.75500:35:18,422 --> 00:35:20,502Then be curious. As I said, curiosity is75600:35:20,502 --> 00:35:23,378number one. You start with sharing75700:35:23,378 --> 00:35:27,254observations. I observe that every time75800:35:27,254 --> 00:35:32,394you estimate something, it takes you twice75900:35:32,394 --> 00:35:35,722as much. I'm just making something up.76000:35:35,722 --> 00:35:41,338Right. I observe that when you submit a PR76100:35:41,338 --> 00:35:43,646there are always a lot of comments from76200:35:43,646 --> 00:35:48,138your peers. I observe that you get, I76300:35:48,138 --> 00:35:50,974don't know, whatever amount of bugs on76400:35:50,974 --> 00:35:53,642code that you submit or you get more76500:35:53,642 --> 00:35:58,482whatever observations. Then give the space76600:35:58,482 --> 00:36:02,990to respond. But be curious about listen.76700:36:02,990 --> 00:36:05,566Practice active listening, not hearing.76800:36:05,566 --> 00:36:08,206Active listening. Be curious to say, okay,76900:36:08,206 --> 00:36:10,518I've said what I wanted to say. Now I'm77000:36:10,518 --> 00:36:13,654going to fully listen to you and I want to77100:36:13,654 --> 00:36:15,986hear what you have to say. What are your77200:36:15,986 --> 00:36:19,322thoughts about it? What is your take? Hear77300:36:19,322 --> 00:36:24,106them out. Sometimes they may not agree77400:36:24,106 --> 00:36:27,174with you, but you have to be at least open77500:36:27,174 --> 00:36:29,980minded to hearing out what they have to77600:36:29,980 --> 00:36:34,622say and then make sure that expectations77700:36:34,622 --> 00:36:39,120are clear. A lot of times the child start77800:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,074with having different expectations or77900:36:42,074 --> 00:36:43,738understanding of what is the role of what78000:36:43,738 --> 00:36:48,510is expected from them and have those78100:36:48,510 --> 00:36:50,942conversations about expectations from that78200:36:50,942 --> 00:36:53,650role, from that individual. Maybe there's78300:36:53,650 --> 00:36:57,794something not aligned there and agree on78400:36:57,794 --> 00:37:01,014what's next. Ask them, what do you think?78500:37:01,014 --> 00:37:03,938What do you propose? It's their78600:37:03,938 --> 00:37:05,586responsibility as well. It's not just78700:37:05,586 --> 00:37:09,350yours. As a manager, if they are not78800:37:09,350 --> 00:37:11,986performing, they need to come up with78900:37:11,986 --> 00:37:13,978solutions. They need to propose. What do79000:37:13,978 --> 00:37:15,770you need for me? I mean, you're there to79100:37:15,770 --> 00:37:17,866support them. What do you need for me?79200:37:17,866 --> 00:37:21,394What is missing? But also what do you79300:37:21,394 --> 00:37:27,278propose doing? Very good. Yeah, I love79400:37:27,278 --> 00:37:31,962that. I think that good leadership at79500:37:31,962 --> 00:37:33,946foundational level is the kind where79600:37:33,946 --> 00:37:37,938listening to understand is right. And I do79700:37:37,938 --> 00:37:40,446a lot of training on this and have79800:37:40,446 --> 00:37:41,646recently done a couple of different79900:37:41,646 --> 00:37:43,826leadership summits, both in our UK office80000:37:43,826 --> 00:37:47,602as well as our office near Memphis. And80100:37:47,602 --> 00:37:49,478every time I'm doing these listening to80200:37:49,478 --> 00:37:52,162understand workshops with people, it's so80300:37:52,162 --> 00:37:54,006impactful because good listening skills,80400:37:54,006 --> 00:37:55,634where you're listening for facts and80500:37:55,634 --> 00:37:57,926feelings and values, is a really deeper80600:37:57,926 --> 00:38:00,214kind of listening than just hearing.80700:38:00,214 --> 00:38:02,122Right? Especially in our distracted world80800:38:02,122 --> 00:38:04,954of fast paced but deep listening is80900:38:04,954 --> 00:38:06,854something we have to work on. And as81000:38:06,854 --> 00:38:09,274leaders and managers in particular,81100:38:09,274 --> 00:38:11,754because of the power dynamic that exists81200:38:11,754 --> 00:38:13,514there, that if we're not listening, we81300:38:13,514 --> 00:38:15,730have blind spots. Blind spots are81400:38:15,730 --> 00:38:18,398dangerous. We could run over people. And81500:38:18,398 --> 00:38:21,166one of the things I really appreciate in81600:38:21,166 --> 00:38:23,214the work that I do, I partner with the81700:38:23,214 --> 00:38:26,174center for Creative Leadership and am81800:38:26,174 --> 00:38:28,306using their curriculum in the company81900:38:28,306 --> 00:38:30,498where I work to help us train on their82000:38:30,498 --> 00:38:33,358research based methods. But one of their82100:38:33,358 --> 00:38:35,634models for feedback in these situations or82200:38:35,634 --> 00:38:38,418any situation is to do what they call SBI.82300:38:38,418 --> 00:38:40,440It's a lot of what you just. Said,82400:38:40,440 --> 00:38:44,946situation. Behavior, impact. And then you82500:38:44,946 --> 00:38:46,742pause and ask for the intent, like you82600:38:46,742 --> 00:38:48,774said, and you stay really curious. You82700:38:48,774 --> 00:38:50,374say, this is the situation. You're not82800:38:50,374 --> 00:38:52,790using feelings, you're just using the82900:38:52,790 --> 00:38:54,314data, what you observe, right. And then83000:38:54,314 --> 00:38:56,586their behavior and then how that impacted83100:38:56,586 --> 00:38:58,106you, and then you pause and you ask for83200:38:58,106 --> 00:39:00,586their intent. And it's been really great83300:39:00,586 --> 00:39:03,686to see how people using that, myself83400:39:03,686 --> 00:39:06,142included. It's really a great way to have83500:39:06,142 --> 00:39:08,366that difficult conversation, which we have83600:39:08,366 --> 00:39:11,742to have a lot as managers and leaders. So83700:39:11,742 --> 00:39:13,146love what you had to say and very83800:39:13,146 --> 00:39:14,706consistent with what I found to be helpful83900:39:14,706 --> 00:39:18,594as well. I'd love to hear if you have any84000:39:18,594 --> 00:39:24,050sort of story that is impactful from your84100:39:24,050 --> 00:39:29,474career that made you who you are as a84200:39:29,474 --> 00:39:31,574leader. Was there any particular person84300:39:31,574 --> 00:39:33,926that influenced you? Was there any84400:39:33,926 --> 00:39:36,374particular situation that kind of gave you84500:39:36,374 --> 00:39:38,486the values that you have to want to invest84600:39:38,486 --> 00:39:41,366in others and make a difference? Any story84700:39:41,366 --> 00:39:43,098that kind of formed you to make you kind84800:39:43,098 --> 00:39:45,466of the leader that you are? I don't know84900:39:45,466 --> 00:39:47,786if I can point to one story. I think it85000:39:47,786 --> 00:39:52,714was a journey, but I remember that the85100:39:52,714 --> 00:39:56,142managers that inspired me even when I85200:39:56,142 --> 00:39:59,118started out, and I couldn't even see85300:39:59,118 --> 00:40:02,378myself there, I was so much at the85400:40:02,378 --> 00:40:04,366beginning. I saw those managers and said,85500:40:04,366 --> 00:40:07,666I want to become this. So a lot of times,85600:40:07,666 --> 00:40:10,306just identifying someone and say, I want85700:40:10,306 --> 00:40:12,962to be like that. And what I appreciated,85800:40:12,962 --> 00:40:15,182and those are my core values, I85900:40:15,182 --> 00:40:19,766appreciated people who were humble, who86000:40:19,766 --> 00:40:23,702were compassionate and empathetic, who86100:40:23,702 --> 00:40:27,510wanted to help me grow, always listened,86200:40:27,510 --> 00:40:30,662and always kind of treated people with86300:40:30,662 --> 00:40:35,914respect and every person differently. I86400:40:35,914 --> 00:40:38,602had a manager that we had a team, a global86500:40:38,602 --> 00:40:40,886team. I was still relatively at the86600:40:40,886 --> 00:40:44,254beginning of my career. And that manager,86700:40:44,254 --> 00:40:48,462I was totally inspired and amazed how he86800:40:48,462 --> 00:40:51,934was able to conduct a meeting with people86900:40:51,934 --> 00:40:55,282from so many different countries and be87000:40:55,282 --> 00:40:58,190able to motivate everyone and kind of87100:40:58,190 --> 00:41:00,354gather everyone together. And I remember87200:41:00,354 --> 00:41:05,474that I thought, I want to become like him.87300:41:05,474 --> 00:41:08,454It took me some years to eventually get87400:41:08,454 --> 00:41:12,402there, but I think that having someone who87500:41:12,402 --> 00:41:15,778inspire you, that you can see yourself87600:41:15,778 --> 00:41:17,590role models are really important. That's87700:41:17,590 --> 00:41:19,702why. One of the reasons why I think that87800:41:19,702 --> 00:41:23,154women have problems getting up to the87900:41:23,154 --> 00:41:25,766exact roles they don't see women role88000:41:25,766 --> 00:41:28,038models. So you really need to relate to a88100:41:28,038 --> 00:41:31,210role model to see, this is what I want to88200:41:31,210 --> 00:41:33,194be again, it's not a copy, it's not a88300:41:33,194 --> 00:41:36,720clone, but someone to aspire to become.88400:41:36,720 --> 00:41:41,370Like. So true. It's been true in my88500:41:41,370 --> 00:41:43,690career, in life as well. I did work in an88600:41:43,690 --> 00:41:46,174organization that had no women in the88700:41:46,174 --> 00:41:50,094executive level or even the senior88800:41:50,094 --> 00:41:52,066management level for a long time. And it88900:41:52,066 --> 00:41:54,594does impact you because you need to see89000:41:54,594 --> 00:41:56,626your person, at least one, obviously more89100:41:56,626 --> 00:41:58,946than one, is helpful. But so many women89200:41:58,946 --> 00:42:00,446are really the ones breaking the glass89300:42:00,446 --> 00:42:01,666ceiling, blazing the trail. And we need89400:42:01,666 --> 00:42:03,446male allies to come along and support us89500:42:03,446 --> 00:42:06,006and be aware that we haven't had the wind89600:42:06,006 --> 00:42:08,294at our back. And it does affect us and it89700:42:08,294 --> 00:42:10,034does affect the bias we all have,89800:42:10,034 --> 00:42:11,386ourselves included. Sometimes, like you89900:42:11,386 --> 00:42:13,914said, it's women also making it harder on90000:42:13,914 --> 00:42:17,146other women. It's not just men, right? All90100:42:17,146 --> 00:42:19,818of us have the ability to open doors for90200:42:19,818 --> 00:42:22,054people, make things easier or make it90300:42:22,054 --> 00:42:23,386harder. So thank you for your insights90400:42:23,386 --> 00:42:25,070today. I really appreciate your90500:42:25,070 --> 00:42:28,126perspective. We are going to let you hang90600:42:28,126 --> 00:42:29,758out with our Patreon supporters, and I'm90700:42:29,758 --> 00:42:32,446going to ask you another question related90800:42:32,446 --> 00:42:34,254to just living in Israel during a time90900:42:34,254 --> 00:42:35,982when the world is watching everything91000:42:35,982 --> 00:42:37,434happening there. I just want to get your91100:42:37,434 --> 00:42:40,754perspective on that as somebody who's from91200:42:40,754 --> 00:42:42,194there and living there and just want to91300:42:42,194 --> 00:42:44,318hear your thoughts about the situation. So91400:42:44,318 --> 00:42:45,886we'll let you do that with our Patreon91500:42:45,886 --> 00:42:47,874supporters. But for now, thank you for91600:42:47,874 --> 00:42:50,014being on the podcast today. Thank you for91700:42:50,014 --> 00:42:51,818sharing your perspective and your91800:42:51,818 --> 00:42:53,222insights, for making a difference in the91900:42:53,222 --> 00:42:55,462ways that you are. And I do hope that your92000:42:55,462 --> 00:42:57,462work produces the fruit you're looking92100:42:57,462 --> 00:42:59,186for, where women are getting to the C92200:42:59,186 --> 00:43:00,706suite to be those kind of leaders that92300:43:00,706 --> 00:43:03,402you're dreaming of and inspiring them to.92400:43:03,402 --> 00:43:05,466Thanks for being on today. Lee Moore,92500:43:05,466 --> 00:43:07,418thank you so much for having me. It's been92600:43:07,418 --> 00:43:10,314a true pleasure speaking with you today.92700:43:10,314 --> 00:43:14,438You too. I hope you enjoyed that92800:43:14,438 --> 00:43:16,106conversation as much as I did. I learned92900:43:16,106 --> 00:43:19,406so much from Leymore, and she hangs around93000:43:19,406 --> 00:43:21,774and talks to us in our Patreon group93100:43:21,774 --> 00:43:23,406called difference Makers. So if you've not93200:43:23,406 --> 00:43:25,118yet joined that community, this would be93300:43:25,118 --> 00:43:27,118the day to do so because I ask her about93400:43:27,118 --> 00:43:30,066what it's like to be living in Israel93500:43:30,066 --> 00:43:31,438during the midst of all this conflict93600:43:31,438 --> 00:43:33,342that's going on. And she gives us her93700:43:33,342 --> 00:43:35,346perspective on what that's like and gives93800:43:35,346 --> 00:43:37,374a very strong appeal for her own93900:43:37,374 --> 00:43:39,870perspective on how we can be helpful. So I94000:43:39,870 --> 00:43:41,414know many of you are trying to figure out94100:43:41,414 --> 00:43:42,966ways you can be helpful in this situation.94200:43:42,966 --> 00:43:44,294And just hearing her perspective was94300:43:44,294 --> 00:43:48,182really great. And just also, it's always94400:43:48,182 --> 00:43:51,042good to think through if that's something94500:43:51,042 --> 00:43:53,106that's triggering for you in any way. So94600:43:53,106 --> 00:43:54,618trigger warning if you've been in part of94700:43:54,618 --> 00:43:57,210a conflict zone or currently are in one,94800:43:57,210 --> 00:43:58,794because some of the things she talks about94900:43:58,794 --> 00:44:00,634might be a little bit triggering. But do95000:44:00,634 --> 00:44:02,254stop by on the difference maker95100:44:02,254 --> 00:44:04,910Community@patreon.com. A world of95200:44:04,910 --> 00:44:07,966difference to check it out. And as always,95300:44:07,966 --> 00:44:11,998this podcast episode is sponsored by95400:44:11,998 --> 00:44:14,734BetterHelp.com difference. And I have very95500:44:14,734 --> 00:44:16,494much benefited from working with a95600:44:16,494 --> 00:44:17,854therapist there and all the different95700:44:17,854 --> 00:44:21,854tools of how to get ourselves through95800:44:21,854 --> 00:44:24,594traumatic situations. Speaking of trauma,95900:44:24,594 --> 00:44:26,174but if you've been in a traumatic96000:44:26,174 --> 00:44:28,306workplace or you've had relationships that96100:44:28,306 --> 00:44:31,266have been traumatic for you, or you are96200:44:31,266 --> 00:44:32,566walking through anything right now that96300:44:32,566 --> 00:44:34,306you just feel like you need some96400:44:34,306 --> 00:44:36,326professional help, I really encourage you96500:44:36,326 --> 00:44:41,254to go to WW dot betterhelp.com difference96600:44:41,254 --> 00:44:44,474and get 10% off your first month. It's96700:44:44,474 --> 00:44:46,602once again been so helpful for me and so I96800:44:46,602 --> 00:44:48,858recommend it to you. So yeah, check them96900:44:48,858 --> 00:44:52,540out and you can also find classes and97000:44:52,540 --> 00:44:55,238different places to go and to be into97100:44:55,238 --> 00:44:57,066groups of people if that's going to be97200:44:57,066 --> 00:44:59,226helpful for you. But also just one on one97300:44:59,226 --> 00:45:01,434therapy and if you decide you want to97400:45:01,434 --> 00:45:03,390switch, they make it really easy. Yeah, go97500:45:03,390 --> 00:45:06,546to www.betterhelp.com difference today to97600:45:06,546 --> 00:45:09,042get 10% off your first month. And as97700:45:09,042 --> 00:45:11,762always, wherever you are around the world,97800:45:11,762 --> 00:45:14,194stay safe. Especially if you're listening97900:45:14,194 --> 00:45:16,914in from the conflict going on in the98000:45:16,914 --> 00:45:19,320Middle east right now. I know it's very98100:45:19,320 --> 00:45:22,022difficult, all of you that are doing great98200:45:22,022 --> 00:45:24,390work there and risking your lives to help98300:45:24,390 --> 00:45:27,622others. And it's a situation we're all98400:45:27,622 --> 00:45:30,438paying attention to and just grieved and98500:45:30,438 --> 00:45:32,810heartbroken and hoping that peace can come98600:45:32,810 --> 00:45:36,186soon in that area for everyone's sake and98700:45:36,186 --> 00:45:38,540that people can live and flourish in that98800:45:38,540 --> 00:45:42,442area simultaneously, side by side with all98900:45:42,442 --> 00:45:44,134different diversity of thought and99000:45:44,134 --> 00:45:46,830cultures and languages and faith99100:45:46,830 --> 00:45:49,086expressions. So yeah, we are sending you99200:45:49,086 --> 00:45:51,166so much love. If you're there and wherever99300:45:51,166 --> 00:45:52,894you are in the world, I know many of you99400:45:52,894 --> 00:45:54,830are doing incredible things to make a99500:45:54,830 --> 00:45:56,794difference. So let us know how this99600:45:56,794 --> 00:45:58,894episode resonated with you. If you work in99700:45:58,894 --> 00:46:01,806Silicon Valley, in tech, if you live in99800:46:01,806 --> 00:46:03,022anywhere in the world, if you're in99900:46:03,022 --> 00:46:04,690Singapore listening to this and work in100000:46:04,690 --> 00:46:07,026tech or in any kind of corporate space and100100:46:07,026 --> 00:46:09,794you want to reach out to Lee Moore for100200:46:09,794 --> 00:46:13,218more tips, you can find her on LinkedIn100300:46:13,218 --> 00:46:15,106and a few other spaces and I'm going to100400:46:15,106 --> 00:46:16,466link all her information in the show notes100500:46:16,466 --> 00:46:18,446so you can make sure and find her anyway.100600:46:18,446 --> 00:46:20,460Wherever you are in world, keep making a