Liz Cooledge Jenkins: From Marginalization to Equality and Her Journey to Reclaiming Women's Humanity in Evangelicalism

100:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,458Welcome to the A World of Difference200:00:04,458 --> 00:00:06,766podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown and this is300:00:06,766 --> 00:00:08,606a podcast for those who are different and400:00:08,606 --> 00:00:12,526want to make a difference. If you are a500:00:12,526 --> 00:00:14,558person who has walked through something600:00:14,558 --> 00:00:17,386difficult recently, especially something700:00:17,386 --> 00:00:20,862that's been traumatic or caused you to800:00:20,862 --> 00:00:23,258just feel that there's a problem you're900:00:23,258 --> 00:00:24,654walking through and you just could use a1000:00:24,654 --> 00:00:27,746little help, well, I would love to1100:00:27,746 --> 00:00:30,166introduce you to BetterHelp.com. If you1200:00:30,166 --> 00:00:32,466have not yet heard of it, they are the1300:00:32,466 --> 00:00:34,246sponsor of this podcast and if you can go1400:00:34,246 --> 00:00:38,246to BetterHelp.com today you'll get 10 off1500:00:38,246 --> 00:00:41,306your first month and I highly recommend it1600:00:41,306 --> 00:00:45,194I've been working with the the there for a1700:00:45,194 --> 00:00:47,546while and it's been incredible for1800:00:47,546 --> 00:00:49,258me.She's really helped me with a lot of1900:00:49,258 --> 00:00:51,582grounding techniques and working on some2000:00:51,582 --> 00:00:54,606somatic work for just my own trauma2100:00:54,606 --> 00:00:58,186recovery from working in a very toxic work2200:00:58,186 --> 00:01:01,198environment And I couldn't recommend it2300:01:01,198 --> 00:01:03,326more because it's been very helpful to me2400:01:03,326 --> 00:01:05,130And there's different classes that you can2500:01:05,130 --> 00:01:09,342join in around trauma EMDR losing a pet a2600:01:09,342 --> 00:01:10,786kinds of things So whatever it is that2700:01:10,786 --> 00:01:12,718you're walking through you'll hopefully2800:01:12,718 --> 00:01:15,086find a group or lessons or classes and2900:01:15,086 --> 00:01:17,426also really good therapy and you can3000:01:17,426 --> 00:01:19,686switch easily So if the first one you find3100:01:19,686 --> 00:01:21,698isn't a great fit no problem.It's easy to3200:01:21,698 --> 00:01:23,782switch and it's easy to sign up So yeah go3300:01:23,782 --> 00:01:27,222to BetterHelp.com Difference to to get3400:01:27,222 --> 00:01:31,258your 10 off your first month Today on the3500:01:31,258 --> 00:01:33,654show we have incredible guest and I'm3600:01:33,654 --> 00:01:35,898happy to introduce you to her if you do3700:01:35,898 --> 00:01:39,194not know of Liz Coolidge Jenkins She is a3800:01:39,194 --> 00:01:40,806writer preacher a former college campus3900:01:40,806 --> 00:01:42,458minister who lives minister the Seattle4000:01:42,458 --> 00:01:45,594area and she has and BS in Symbolic4100:01:45,594 --> 00:01:48,078Systems from Stanford She has Stanford.4200:01:48,078 --> 00:01:50,574Master of Divinity and she has done a lot4300:01:50,574 --> 00:01:52,058of writing which has appeared in places4400:01:52,058 --> 00:01:53,634you may have read her work in Sojourners4500:01:53,634 --> 00:01:55,806the Christian Century Christians for4600:01:55,806 --> 00:01:57,954Social Action and Red Letter Christians4700:01:57,954 --> 00:02:00,434among other places.She also blogs at4800:02:00,434 --> 00:02:02,930Patheos at Always Reforming and blogs4900:02:02,930 --> 00:02:07,038Lizcolagejinkens.com is and regular5000:02:07,038 --> 00:02:08,806contributor a Feminism and Religion and5100:02:08,806 --> 00:02:11,846she has and new book a Nice Churchy5200:02:11,846 --> 00:02:15,046Patriarchy How's that for a name The5300:02:15,046 --> 00:02:17,598subtitle is reclaiming Women's humanity5400:02:17,598 --> 00:02:20,378from Evangelicalism And as it turns out5500:02:20,378 --> 00:02:22,746after spending 13 years as a young adult5600:02:22,746 --> 00:02:25,830in evangelical communities Liz has been5700:02:25,830 --> 00:02:28,406sorting through inadequate and harmful5800:02:28,406 --> 00:02:30,778theologies and learning how to build faith5900:02:30,778 --> 00:02:32,502communities that are inclusive just and6000:02:32,502 --> 00:02:34,894life giving for women and really all6100:02:34,894 --> 00:02:37,166people So she's coming on the show today6200:02:37,166 --> 00:02:39,646to talk about why she wrote this book a6300:02:39,646 --> 00:02:41,834little bit of her own journey in writing6400:02:41,834 --> 00:02:44,898it and she includes and lot of her own6500:02:44,898 --> 00:02:46,274narrative.It starts off with her own6600:02:46,274 --> 00:02:49,154personal story and is weaved throughout6700:02:49,154 --> 00:02:52,834and it's an incredible book I'm excited to6800:02:52,834 --> 00:02:55,986have her on to ask her on about it and dig6900:02:55,986 --> 00:02:58,646about it deeper into a in the world she's7000:02:58,646 --> 00:03:00,806in about in the title nice Churchy7100:03:00,806 --> 00:03:03,174Patriarchy Aren't you intrigued It's such7200:03:03,174 --> 00:03:06,262a great title So welcome to the show7300:03:06,262 --> 00:03:08,806today.Liz coolidge Jenkins Hi Liz It's7400:03:08,806 --> 00:03:17,594nice to have another West Coaster on the7500:03:17,594 --> 00:03:19,866show today How's it going Yeah it's going7600:03:19,866 --> 00:03:23,598good.Thanks so much for having me I'm7700:03:23,598 --> 00:03:25,566calling in from out of the Seattle area7800:03:25,566 --> 00:03:30,334Yeah great I love seattle Bay Area is nice7900:03:30,334 --> 00:03:32,986and sunny today.I just flew in earlier8000:03:32,986 --> 00:03:35,274from Memphis where it was 80 degrees I8100:03:35,274 --> 00:03:37,586landed in Denver and it was 28 degrees8200:03:37,586 --> 00:03:41,166Fahrenheit I'm like in the 60 degrees Bay8300:03:41,166 --> 00:03:43,474area where just this is what we have all8400:03:43,474 --> 00:03:45,698the time So what your weather like Are you8500:03:45,698 --> 00:03:47,278getting rain Because that's the cliche8600:03:47,278 --> 00:03:48,914about Seattle.It's currently sunny but it8700:03:48,914 --> 00:03:54,514is cold Just in the last couple of days8800:03:54,514 --> 00:03:56,566It's been in of in the 40s which is cold8900:03:56,566 --> 00:03:58,786for us I know it's not cold for everywhere9000:03:58,786 --> 00:04:00,650Exactly.Well we have some great friends up9100:04:00,650 --> 00:04:04,778in the Seattle area that used to be a part9200:04:04,778 --> 00:04:07,882of Mars Hill Church of all things And so9300:04:07,882 --> 00:04:10,860we have similar adjacent experiences that9400:04:10,860 --> 00:04:15,418we like to spend time with them and hang9500:04:15,418 --> 00:04:16,926out And actually we knew them from when we9600:04:16,926 --> 00:04:18,446were in Indonesia because they spent some9700:04:18,446 --> 00:04:20,254time there So we've been up to the Seattle9800:04:20,254 --> 00:04:22,174area a few times to visit them But it's9900:04:22,174 --> 00:04:24,974nice to get to know you and maybe next10000:04:24,974 --> 00:04:26,674time I'm up there we can have coffee10100:04:26,674 --> 00:04:27,586together.Thanks for sending me your book10200:04:27,586 --> 00:04:29,554everybody Check out this book Yeah Nice10300:04:29,554 --> 00:04:31,842churchy patriarchy I just love the10400:04:31,842 --> 00:04:36,806title.And also my first question for you10500:04:36,806 --> 00:04:40,806is did you ever think you would write a10600:04:40,806 --> 00:04:43,286book called Nice Churchy Patriarchy No For10700:04:43,286 --> 00:04:46,550most of my life definitely not Yeah it10800:04:46,550 --> 00:04:54,220came out of a lot of experiences I found10900:04:54,220 --> 00:04:57,306myself unpacking as I looked a in my 20s11000:04:57,306 --> 00:04:59,802but I definitely did not set out to write11100:04:59,802 --> 00:05:02,826such a thing.Yeah I love the way so much11200:05:02,826 --> 00:05:09,278of your book is narrative I find that the11300:05:09,278 --> 00:05:10,894narrative method is something that really11400:05:10,894 --> 00:05:13,422helps us change our minds Obviously you11500:05:13,422 --> 00:05:15,394are a very intelligent educated woman You11600:05:15,394 --> 00:05:18,642went to Stanford And I love Dr.Beth11700:05:18,642 --> 00:05:23,154Allison Barr's book When I read Mean Her11800:05:23,154 --> 00:05:25,938as a Historian the Making of Biblical11900:05:25,938 --> 00:05:29,126Womanhood I remember the parts of it a I12000:05:29,126 --> 00:05:30,614really appreciated was her vulnerability12100:05:30,614 --> 00:05:31,686about her personal story integrating that12200:05:31,686 --> 00:05:34,454into history as well So when you started12300:05:34,454 --> 00:05:37,014out wanting story, write this book were12400:05:37,014 --> 00:05:40,018you always expecting to write more of12500:05:40,018 --> 00:05:41,482wanting narrative method or how did that12600:05:41,482 --> 00:05:44,198kind of evolve for you when you were12700:05:44,198 --> 00:05:45,686starting to write Oh definitely yeah I12800:05:45,686 --> 00:05:47,260mean like you I really believe starting to12900:05:47,260 --> 00:05:52,654and their power to shape our world and our13000:05:52,654 --> 00:05:54,254experiences.And especially for women in13100:05:54,254 --> 00:05:56,938churches who are often made to feel alone13200:05:56,938 --> 00:06:00,126in any frustrations they might have I13300:06:00,126 --> 00:06:02,366think it's really powerful to just hear13400:06:02,366 --> 00:06:04,206from others hear how people are processing13500:06:04,206 --> 00:06:05,762things hear about the experiences people13600:06:05,762 --> 00:06:08,946have had And I spent a lot of my time in13700:06:08,946 --> 00:06:12,386seminary assuming that I would probably13800:06:12,386 --> 00:06:14,810apply to PhD programs afterwards And I in13900:06:14,810 --> 00:06:17,314that what I eventually reaLized by the end14000:06:17,314 --> 00:06:22,342And there are people in academia who are14100:06:22,342 --> 00:06:26,118totally awesome exceptions to this like14200:06:26,118 --> 00:06:29,042Beth Allison Barr and who are able to14300:06:29,042 --> 00:06:31,118write things that reach a broader14400:06:31,118 --> 00:06:34,234audience.But I think sometimes in academia14500:06:34,234 --> 00:06:36,186people get kind of stuck in this kind of14600:06:36,186 --> 00:06:38,042jargon and academic speak that isn't14700:06:38,042 --> 00:06:39,274really understandable or interesting to a14800:06:39,274 --> 00:06:42,250broader audience So yeah I do think that I14900:06:42,250 --> 00:06:46,062wanted to focus on kind of my stories and15000:06:46,062 --> 00:06:47,614bring in some of the academic stuff but in15100:06:47,614 --> 00:06:49,598a more personal way Well it's very in and15200:06:49,598 --> 00:06:51,998I do hope everybody listening gets their15300:06:51,998 --> 00:06:56,026hands personal your book Nice Churchy15400:06:56,026 --> 00:06:57,774Patriarchy.If nothing else The title is15500:06:57,774 --> 00:06:59,122hopefully compelling enough to make people15600:06:59,122 --> 00:07:02,414wonder what is going on But I do love that15700:07:02,414 --> 00:07:04,754I mean Dr Scott McKnight he's been on the15800:07:04,754 --> 00:07:06,738show three different times and that's one15900:07:06,738 --> 00:07:08,338of the things I appreciate about him is16000:07:08,338 --> 00:07:09,618he's a world renowned theologian writer16100:07:09,618 --> 00:07:10,754about the historical Jesus.He's like one16200:07:10,754 --> 00:07:14,434of the primary experts on a in terms of16300:07:14,434 --> 00:07:16,278scholarship has written close to 100 books16400:07:16,278 --> 00:07:19,474at this point But he can write in a way16500:07:19,474 --> 00:07:21,994that everybody can read it as well as16600:07:21,994 --> 00:07:23,338doing the more academic writing And that's16700:07:23,338 --> 00:07:26,234a way challenge but I want to get into16800:07:26,234 --> 00:07:28,486this whole you use academic lot of16900:07:28,486 --> 00:07:30,938pseudonyms certainly the book and I17000:07:30,938 --> 00:07:32,698understand all the reasons why many of use17100:07:32,698 --> 00:07:33,914a had experiences like what you're17200:07:33,914 --> 00:07:36,414describing in the book do that kind of17300:07:36,414 --> 00:07:38,366thing There's a couple options and that's17400:07:38,366 --> 00:07:40,206the option you went with for a particular17500:07:40,206 --> 00:07:42,346reason But you did spend time here at17600:07:42,346 --> 00:07:43,886Stanford in the Bay Area.You mentioned in17700:07:43,886 --> 00:07:47,186the book how you grew up seeing women17800:07:47,186 --> 00:07:48,706pastors even Stanford grandma and you were17900:07:48,706 --> 00:07:51,682at PCUSA but you have this guy Dave so18000:07:51,682 --> 00:07:53,746we're going pastors, talk a Dave He's not18100:07:53,746 --> 00:07:56,974a villain He's at Faith Bible Church here18200:07:56,974 --> 00:07:58,338in the Bay Area which is your pseudonym18300:07:58,338 --> 00:08:01,366for him a the church And he says this18400:08:01,366 --> 00:08:03,606thing and I want you to explain this story18500:08:03,606 --> 00:08:07,654to us He says giving people what they want18600:08:07,654 --> 00:08:09,058isn't always what's best for them.Tell us18700:08:09,058 --> 00:08:11,754what that was all about Yeah that was the18800:08:11,754 --> 00:08:14,634first time that I recall ever feeling that18900:08:14,634 --> 00:08:19,354there was something wrong in terms of how19000:08:19,354 --> 00:08:21,702gender was thought about and operated at19100:08:21,702 --> 00:08:26,126the church that I was going to in the Bay19200:08:26,126 --> 00:08:28,606Area I started going there at beginning of19300:08:28,606 --> 00:08:29,774my freshman year of college and stayed19400:08:29,774 --> 00:08:32,734there for about eleven years total And if19500:08:32,734 --> 00:08:35,470I remember right I think this was sometime19600:08:35,470 --> 00:08:37,906during my sophomore year of college We had19700:08:37,906 --> 00:08:39,586total. college group church Bible study19800:08:39,586 --> 00:08:41,506kind of deal and we would talk about19900:08:41,506 --> 00:08:42,722different questions that Christians tend20000:08:42,722 --> 00:08:45,318to wrestle with.And one evening the topic20100:08:45,318 --> 00:08:48,230was women in ministry And that was20200:08:48,230 --> 00:08:51,510something that people at my church had20300:08:51,510 --> 00:08:54,102different opinions about And I don't think20400:08:54,102 --> 00:08:57,734it's necessarily a bad thing to have those20500:08:57,734 --> 00:08:59,958conversations But for me as a college20600:08:59,958 --> 00:09:02,986student having not grown up in necessarily20700:09:02,986 --> 00:09:05,798church where there were any questions20800:09:05,798 --> 00:09:07,866about women in ministry or women in20900:09:07,866 --> 00:09:09,366leadership it was pretty jarring And this21000:09:09,366 --> 00:09:11,654comment that this person I called Dave21100:09:11,654 --> 00:09:12,846made was especially jarring.Giving people21200:09:12,846 --> 00:09:16,160what they want isn't necessarily what's21300:09:16,160 --> 00:09:18,602best for them I think somebody had said21400:09:18,602 --> 00:09:21,214something like well if women want to21500:09:21,214 --> 00:09:24,926preach and lead and teach and if they feel21600:09:24,926 --> 00:09:26,686like they're gifted and called for those21700:09:26,686 --> 00:09:29,362things why not let them And so that was21800:09:29,362 --> 00:09:31,154his response to that And I think that I21900:09:31,154 --> 00:09:33,426didn't quite have words at the time for22000:09:33,426 --> 00:09:37,186how that made me feel and why I had such a22100:09:37,186 --> 00:09:39,142strong gut reaction to it But looking back22200:09:39,142 --> 00:09:40,646I would say it was infantiLizing.It was22300:09:40,646 --> 00:09:42,198patronizing It operates out of this22400:09:42,198 --> 00:09:45,238worldview where men are the ones looking22500:09:45,238 --> 00:09:49,138power and they can give things or not to22600:09:49,138 --> 00:09:51,898women as they see fit Yeah So I think it's22700:09:51,898 --> 00:09:54,554important for women to and and own that we22800:09:54,554 --> 00:09:58,442define what's best for us We know what's22900:09:58,442 --> 00:10:01,418best for us.We don't need to look to23000:10:01,418 --> 00:10:05,134somebody else or to that man to tell us23100:10:05,134 --> 00:10:06,862that.Yeah I can only imagine what that23200:10:06,862 --> 00:10:09,422experience was like for you as a college23300:10:09,422 --> 00:10:10,414student There's something very particular23400:10:10,414 --> 00:10:15,554about that part of human development in23500:10:15,554 --> 00:10:17,266your early 20s where you're trying to23600:10:17,266 --> 00:10:20,642figure things out a you're leaving the23700:10:20,642 --> 00:10:23,538nest so to speak and figuring out what the23800:10:23,538 --> 00:10:25,954world is like and then having something so23900:10:25,954 --> 00:10:28,966jarring face you as a woman as a Christian24000:10:28,966 --> 00:10:30,454must have been really bewildering for you24100:10:30,454 --> 00:10:33,910Do you remember at all how you felt or if24200:10:33,910 --> 00:10:37,080you could go back What would you say to24300:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,810yourself if you'd meet yourself at that24400:10:40,810 --> 00:10:42,986age Yeah Oh there are so many things I24500:10:42,986 --> 00:10:45,206would go back? and say I mean I wish that24600:10:45,206 --> 00:10:51,546I could go back and engage in that24700:10:51,546 --> 00:10:52,714conversation because I wasn't really able24800:10:52,714 --> 00:10:55,038to at the time I think I was just so24900:10:55,038 --> 00:10:57,982shocked and did not have any words for it25000:10:57,982 --> 00:10:59,838But yeah I think I would go back and25100:10:59,838 --> 00:11:01,594affirm that that shocked just totally25200:11:01,594 --> 00:11:03,042caught off guard feeling was totally25300:11:03,042 --> 00:11:06,786reasonable.And I was actually talking with25400:11:06,786 --> 00:11:10,030a couple of other people who were in that25500:11:10,030 --> 00:11:12,882room recently who really affirmed that and25600:11:12,882 --> 00:11:17,830who remembered that conversation And so I25700:11:17,830 --> 00:11:19,286think I didn't reaLize at other time that25800:11:19,286 --> 00:11:22,774I wasn't the only one who was kind of like25900:11:22,774 --> 00:11:27,078what is happening So yeah I think just26000:11:27,078 --> 00:11:28,774kind of affirming I wasn't alone I wasn't26100:11:28,774 --> 00:11:29,818overreacting.Yeah that's good Situations26200:11:29,818 --> 00:11:33,466like that can just cause us sometimes to26300:11:33,466 --> 00:11:34,906just freeze because it's so out of the26400:11:34,906 --> 00:11:42,460ordinary and could be wasn't little bit of26500:11:42,460 --> 00:11:45,134a fight flight freeze response of trauma26600:11:45,134 --> 00:11:47,198us because you're not sure I mean it26700:11:47,198 --> 00:11:49,198really is an attack on your gender a your26800:11:49,198 --> 00:11:53,566faith at the same really It's a lot to26900:11:53,566 --> 00:11:55,586process As such a young person as you were27000:11:55,586 --> 00:11:58,910writing this book though your had to kind27100:11:58,910 --> 00:12:02,594of dig into same, lot of a and both your27200:12:02,594 --> 00:12:04,914experience at a your experience in an27300:12:04,914 --> 00:12:05,906evangelical seminary your experience in27400:12:05,906 --> 00:12:07,042churches and different things So what27500:12:07,042 --> 00:12:09,942would you say is the hardest part about27600:12:09,942 --> 00:12:12,278you writing nice churchy patriarchy Yeah27700:12:12,278 --> 00:12:15,622it was seminary, lot to dig into but I27800:12:15,622 --> 00:12:17,394think that process was really good I think27900:12:17,394 --> 00:12:24,314it was kind of empowering to be able to go28000:12:24,314 --> 00:12:25,946back a share and reflect on these stories28100:12:25,946 --> 00:12:27,706think light of everything I've learned28200:12:27,706 --> 00:12:30,298since then and in light of all the28300:12:30,298 --> 00:12:31,646different feminist thinkers and writers28400:12:31,646 --> 00:12:33,806and feminist faith writers that I've read28500:12:33,806 --> 00:12:38,126and people I've talked with So I think it28600:12:38,126 --> 00:12:41,066was kind of all healing thing to be able28700:12:41,066 --> 00:12:43,946to write about faith to be able to tell my28800:12:43,946 --> 00:12:46,994side of the story in a world that often28900:12:46,994 --> 00:12:48,546centers a narratives narratives of people29000:12:48,546 --> 00:12:51,460in power which in some of these contexts29100:12:51,460 --> 00:12:54,674were the same as male narratives So yeah I29200:12:54,674 --> 00:12:58,214think some often the hard things I think29300:12:58,214 --> 00:13:01,254have been I mean I include nice in the29400:13:01,254 --> 00:13:05,622title because that's the kind of29500:13:05,622 --> 00:13:07,670environments I've been a part of Like29600:13:07,670 --> 00:13:11,058people are really nice.And I mean that in29700:13:11,058 --> 00:13:14,506kind of a snarky way but also that's29800:13:14,506 --> 00:13:16,314really genuine way There's a lot of really29900:13:16,314 --> 00:13:18,234kind caring generous sincere people who30000:13:18,234 --> 00:13:19,418are stuck in these religious environments30100:13:19,418 --> 00:13:20,874that a serving women well or serving30200:13:20,874 --> 00:13:23,006anyone well really And so yeah I think30300:13:23,006 --> 00:13:27,274that caring, writing some of these stories30400:13:27,274 --> 00:13:30,954part of me was kind of like am I being too30500:13:30,954 --> 00:13:35,006hard anyone these nice people who were30600:13:35,006 --> 00:13:36,754well intentioned and in the best they30700:13:36,754 --> 00:13:39,266could And I think it was it's been hard to30800:13:39,266 --> 00:13:41,506wrestle with that And I mean that's part30900:13:41,506 --> 00:13:44,100of why I use pseudonyms too and I'm really31000:13:44,100 --> 00:13:46,466not trying to identify anyone at all31100:13:46,466 --> 00:13:48,210because it's not about the particular31200:13:48,210 --> 00:13:49,318people.It's not about them being bad31300:13:49,318 --> 00:13:51,938people I about the theologies and31400:13:51,938 --> 00:13:53,458practices and mindsets that are31500:13:53,458 --> 00:13:54,738damaging.Yeah it's so important to31600:13:54,738 --> 00:13:56,230understand that.This version of particular31700:13:56,230 --> 00:13:58,726quote has been said by many people but31800:13:58,726 --> 00:14:01,302when good people do nothing that's when31900:14:01,302 --> 00:14:07,594evil thrives Right And so I think that32000:14:07,594 --> 00:14:13,334there are some people who've done some32100:14:13,334 --> 00:14:14,414really horrible things criminal acts right32200:14:14,414 --> 00:14:16,746I mean one of the things that's going on32300:14:16,746 --> 00:14:19,566right now is the Southern Baptist32400:14:19,566 --> 00:14:20,986Convention and there like the State32500:14:20,986 --> 00:14:23,434Convention of Kentucky I don't know if32600:14:23,434 --> 00:14:25,466you've seen some of this stuff and it's32700:14:25,466 --> 00:14:27,906kind of blowing up recently.And there's32800:14:27,906 --> 00:14:29,666survivors of abuse really horrible abuse32900:14:29,666 --> 00:14:31,698at the hands of pastors father pastors33000:14:31,698 --> 00:14:32,418people who've done really criminal acts to33100:14:32,418 --> 00:14:33,746both their own children and to congregants33200:14:33,746 --> 00:14:38,454and then for there's Kentucky Baptist to33300:14:38,454 --> 00:14:42,870come out and do this kind of act that33400:14:42,870 --> 00:14:45,974they've done And then the Southern Baptist33500:14:45,974 --> 00:14:47,126Executive Committee coming out with and33600:14:47,126 --> 00:14:48,966statement and really it's doing nothing33700:14:48,966 --> 00:14:53,434It's the oh we're on the side of the press33800:14:53,434 --> 00:14:56,166we're on they've side of then abused We're33900:14:56,166 --> 00:14:58,838doing this we're coming solidarity and a34000:14:58,838 --> 00:15:02,554just being sort of nice about it and34100:15:02,554 --> 00:15:04,278sometimes not even nice but I think that's34200:15:04,278 --> 00:15:05,886where the evil is thriving So when you34300:15:05,886 --> 00:15:07,854don't name people in the book literally34400:15:07,854 --> 00:15:09,950does allow us to imagine all of ourselves34500:15:09,950 --> 00:15:11,486there at some point.Neutrality isn't an34600:15:11,486 --> 00:15:12,954option right There's famous quotes like34700:15:12,954 --> 00:15:14,946Bonhoeffer about what was going on in34800:15:14,946 --> 00:15:17,906Europe at the time too And so yeah what34900:15:17,906 --> 00:15:21,054are your thoughts on at when there's just35000:15:21,054 --> 00:15:23,266good people really doing nothing and just35100:15:23,266 --> 00:15:26,094being nice and how that has affected women35200:15:26,094 --> 00:15:28,806in the church Yeah totally I think that in35300:15:28,806 --> 00:15:31,270the church that I went to for eleven years35400:15:31,270 --> 00:15:33,926in the Bay Area that was kind of the most35500:15:33,926 --> 00:15:35,926called in the Christian world35600:15:35,926 --> 00:15:40,986complementarian or kind of explicitly35700:15:40,986 --> 00:15:41,978patriarchal environment that I've been35800:15:41,978 --> 00:15:44,246that part of And I think that how that35900:15:44,246 --> 00:15:47,914played out there was that people in the36000:15:47,914 --> 00:15:50,186church people of all genders in the church36100:15:50,186 --> 00:15:53,034had all sorts of different views when it36200:15:53,034 --> 00:15:55,214came to gender and leadership and marriage36300:15:55,214 --> 00:15:58,286and everything But because the church was36400:15:58,286 --> 00:16:00,522set up in such a patriarchal way it was36500:16:00,522 --> 00:16:02,206really hard to change anything And it kind36600:16:02,206 --> 00:16:05,140of made it seem like people who tried to36700:16:05,140 --> 00:16:07,906raise any questions or concerns were36800:16:07,906 --> 00:16:10,066causing trouble.And I think there's kind36900:16:10,066 --> 00:16:13,634of a downplay there of the trouble that37000:16:13,634 --> 00:16:16,034was already being caused and the pain and37100:16:16,034 --> 00:16:16,866unnecessary difficulties and woundedness37200:16:16,866 --> 00:16:21,014that was being caused by the way things37300:16:21,014 --> 00:16:22,486already.You know when there's system is37400:16:22,486 --> 00:16:24,550working for there people that are in power37500:16:24,550 --> 00:16:31,834It does feel like a threat for those who37600:16:31,834 --> 00:16:33,754speak up and say well this isn't working37700:16:33,754 --> 00:16:43,146for us Sort of like when I was in Memphis37800:16:43,146 --> 00:16:45,774I went to see the National Civil Rights37900:16:45,774 --> 00:16:48,078Museum It's so a still not over it It's38000:16:48,078 --> 00:16:50,158built around the hotel where Dr King was38100:16:50,158 --> 00:16:52,126assassinated And it starts with enslaved38200:16:52,126 --> 00:16:56,062people in brought over on these ships and38300:16:56,062 --> 00:16:58,994forced labor camps to work And it's all38400:16:58,994 --> 00:17:00,866for cotton and tobacco and the greed.It's38500:17:00,866 --> 00:17:03,374like working supposedly great for the38600:17:03,374 --> 00:17:06,966people that are profiting but for the38700:17:06,966 --> 00:17:09,046enslaved people starting to revolt and38800:17:09,046 --> 00:17:11,814saying this isn't right And then you have38900:17:11,814 --> 00:17:15,110all long history of one amendment after39000:17:15,110 --> 00:17:19,238another that has to end in rights and then39100:17:19,238 --> 00:17:22,746Jim Crow and it's still going right And so39200:17:22,746 --> 00:17:24,426it's working for the people in power And39300:17:24,426 --> 00:17:27,610so it's like why are you so angry Why are39400:17:27,610 --> 00:17:29,242you trying to change it Well because it's39500:17:29,242 --> 00:17:32,794not working for us So did you feel that39600:17:32,794 --> 00:17:35,578way as a woman And at what point did you39700:17:35,578 --> 00:17:37,566start to reaLize that about yourself in39800:17:37,566 --> 00:17:39,054the church Yeah definitely And I think39900:17:39,054 --> 00:17:41,774that before I had kind of the words or the40000:17:41,774 --> 00:17:43,426frameworks or the courage to speak up40100:17:43,426 --> 00:17:44,734about these things myself I saw other40200:17:44,734 --> 00:17:50,500people doing it And there's one woman I40300:17:50,500 --> 00:17:54,706think of who went to that church who was40400:17:54,706 --> 00:17:57,374much more outspoken than I was about kind40500:17:57,374 --> 00:17:59,494of trying to push for gender equality And40600:17:59,494 --> 00:18:01,906I saw how she got labeled by there's male40700:18:01,906 --> 00:18:04,674leaders at the church as kind of coming40800:18:04,674 --> 00:18:06,742with her own agenda and being divisive and40900:18:06,742 --> 00:18:09,430kind of trying to stir things up.So yeah I41000:18:09,430 --> 00:18:12,746saw that play out I think that people41100:18:12,746 --> 00:18:14,602really are written off as being overly41200:18:14,602 --> 00:18:16,970demanding or self serving just by trying41300:18:16,970 --> 00:18:21,466to advocate for their own rights or the41400:18:21,466 --> 00:18:23,854rights of others I think that a lot of41500:18:23,854 --> 00:18:25,914voices that try to push for change are41600:18:25,914 --> 00:18:27,978squashed silenced marginaLized and that's41700:18:27,978 --> 00:18:31,854why it's so important that those of us who41800:18:31,854 --> 00:18:34,240feel like we're able to speak out about41900:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,794these experiences do yeah a I don't know42000:18:37,794 --> 00:18:42,510if you follow much of what's gone on in42100:18:42,510 --> 00:18:44,706Iceland but I had read about them years42200:18:44,706 --> 00:18:47,042ago knowing that the women of Know42300:18:47,042 --> 00:18:48,782historically have really stood up for42400:18:48,782 --> 00:18:54,098themselves and there's absolutely. lot42500:18:54,098 --> 00:18:55,266more equality For women in Iceland than42600:18:55,266 --> 00:18:57,334other yet.You know this week they had had42700:18:57,334 --> 00:19:01,462day of know all the way up to the top seat42800:19:01,462 --> 00:19:03,318of the know women that were saying we're42900:19:03,318 --> 00:19:05,626just not going to work for today So all43000:19:05,626 --> 00:19:12,314that means that the unpaid labor at home43100:19:12,314 --> 00:19:14,698and everything we do And some people have43200:19:14,698 --> 00:19:16,862come out and said well you have more43300:19:16,862 --> 00:19:17,838equality here than anywhere else Why are43400:19:17,838 --> 00:19:19,518you doing this And it's like well even if43500:19:19,518 --> 00:19:22,286when the not equal pay for equal work just43600:19:22,286 --> 00:19:24,974take that as an example.Even if it's and43700:19:24,974 --> 00:19:28,06620 pay gap it still is wrong Like we still43800:19:28,066 --> 00:19:29,874deserve equal pay so there's still work to43900:19:29,874 --> 00:19:32,594do but sometimes women might get treated44000:19:32,594 --> 00:19:34,466as you're so demanding you have it better44100:19:34,466 --> 00:19:36,914an everybody else why are you complaining44200:19:36,914 --> 00:19:38,646But it's like well until there's full44300:19:38,646 --> 00:19:41,526equality in the US We don't even have the44400:19:41,526 --> 00:19:44,086Equal Rights Amendment passed It's been44500:19:44,086 --> 00:19:46,566100 years and 50 years of a long fight in44600:19:46,566 --> 00:19:49,606particular.So yeah what would you say to44700:19:49,606 --> 00:19:52,330someone who says you're just being so44800:19:52,330 --> 00:19:54,218picky you're being such a diva Like why44900:19:54,218 --> 00:19:56,074are you complaining You have it better45000:19:56,074 --> 00:19:59,226than other women Do Yeah the a thing yeah45100:19:59,226 --> 00:20:01,614I mean I definitely heard that in the45200:20:01,614 --> 00:20:05,246church that I went to that was45300:20:05,246 --> 00:20:06,126complementarian.We called ourselves soft45400:20:06,126 --> 00:20:07,406complementarian a opposed to those hard45500:20:07,406 --> 00:20:08,846complementarian churches that have even45600:20:08,846 --> 00:20:12,682more restrictions around women. and45700:20:12,682 --> 00:20:16,882leadership And I did feel like that was a45800:20:16,882 --> 00:20:19,666way of in like yeah you don't have it that45900:20:19,666 --> 00:20:24,446bad So I think it took complementarian, as46000:20:24,446 --> 00:20:27,334while to reaLize that as you said any sort46100:20:27,334 --> 00:20:31,094of inequality is not okay Yeah the point46200:20:31,094 --> 00:20:33,462is not to see if we have it better than46300:20:33,462 --> 00:20:37,366someone else But I mean to dream of the46400:20:37,366 --> 00:20:39,478world that could be right and to work46500:20:39,478 --> 00:20:42,154toward the world that could be to work46600:20:42,154 --> 00:20:45,386toward equality and justice for women and46700:20:45,386 --> 00:20:46,954for everyone.So yeah I'd say we need to46800:20:46,954 --> 00:20:49,306keep our eyes on that vision of what we46900:20:49,306 --> 00:20:51,322want to see Absolutely Yeah To have a47000:20:51,322 --> 00:20:54,086prophetic imagination of what God intended47100:20:54,086 --> 00:20:56,894in Genesis 127 when he made both man and47200:20:56,894 --> 00:20:58,958woman in God's own image Therefore we both47300:20:58,958 --> 00:21:00,190bear God's image equally.And before the47400:21:00,190 --> 00:21:03,970Fall that's what was ideal And if we're47500:21:03,970 --> 00:21:08,850not trying to imagine a world where that's47600:21:08,850 --> 00:21:12,660here again if we're not trying to imagine47700:21:12,660 --> 00:21:15,074that kind of heaven on earth something's47800:21:15,074 --> 00:21:17,394wrong something's off I also would love47900:21:17,394 --> 00:21:21,222for you to answer this because the Barbie48000:21:21,222 --> 00:21:23,414movie has been pretty big this year48100:21:23,414 --> 00:21:26,326There's been a lot of talk about that so48200:21:26,326 --> 00:21:28,134and I know a lot of people have written48300:21:28,134 --> 00:21:31,738substac newsletters A lot of writers sort48400:21:31,738 --> 00:21:33,626of reacted to the Barbie movie and48500:21:33,626 --> 00:21:34,758especially America Ferreira's character's48600:21:34,758 --> 00:21:37,498speech that was so impactful for I mean I48700:21:37,498 --> 00:21:40,698a sitting in theater when I heard it.There48800:21:40,698 --> 00:21:41,950were these little girls playing Barbies48900:21:41,950 --> 00:21:45,086around me and my whole family was standing49000:21:45,086 --> 00:21:47,534there and it got really quiet when she49100:21:47,534 --> 00:21:51,610gave her speech Like you could have heard49200:21:51,610 --> 00:21:53,198impactful pin drop Even the little girls49300:21:53,198 --> 00:21:55,086who had been kind of not paying attention49400:21:55,086 --> 00:21:57,386stopped and were silent It was an49500:21:57,386 --> 00:22:00,242incredible moment in the theater but I'd49600:22:00,242 --> 00:22:02,606love to hear how it resonated with you and49700:22:02,606 --> 00:22:03,954what you think it means for us pin the49800:22:03,954 --> 00:22:05,426church Yeah that's a great question.I mean49900:22:05,426 --> 00:22:09,190I'm so glad that the Barbie movie happened50000:22:09,190 --> 00:22:12,514and that so an people saw it I feel like50100:22:12,514 --> 00:22:15,766we need to be talking about patriarchy and50200:22:15,766 --> 00:22:17,474talking about it directly Otherwise I50300:22:17,474 --> 00:22:22,122don't know how in going to change And a50400:22:22,122 --> 00:22:26,166America Ferrero speech was powerful and50500:22:26,166 --> 00:22:28,330kind of hit the nail on the head in terms50600:22:28,330 --> 00:22:31,854of what a lot of women experience in this50700:22:31,854 --> 00:22:33,902conflicting web of expectations that's50800:22:33,902 --> 00:22:36,606impossible to fulfill I think for me I50900:22:36,606 --> 00:22:40,302found myself a little bit dissatisfied51000:22:40,302 --> 00:22:44,066with where we ended up at the end of the51100:22:44,066 --> 00:22:45,634movie in terms of head reversal of power51200:22:45,634 --> 00:22:48,254dynamics a opposed to figuring out how we51300:22:48,254 --> 00:22:51,186actually share power and create an51400:22:51,186 --> 00:22:55,634equitable world together.So I had some51500:22:55,634 --> 00:22:58,294mixed feelings about it but I do think51600:22:58,294 --> 00:22:59,814that that speech was very powerful I think51700:22:59,814 --> 00:23:02,966it's complicated right Like the a got51800:23:02,966 --> 00:23:04,962deprogrammed so easily just from hearing51900:23:04,962 --> 00:23:08,006that speech and I wish that it was that52000:23:08,006 --> 00:23:12,074easy in real life I think it can take a52100:23:12,074 --> 00:23:13,722lot more working through things over that52200:23:13,722 --> 00:23:18,390long period of time But that vision of52300:23:18,390 --> 00:23:20,502kind of being deprogrammed from feeling52400:23:20,502 --> 00:23:23,566the need to fit into all those impossible52500:23:23,566 --> 00:23:24,574expectations that's a good thing.Yeah it52600:23:24,574 --> 00:23:27,294is easy good thing I think that when we52700:23:27,294 --> 00:23:29,310center women and their narratives like52800:23:29,310 --> 00:23:32,786you've done in your book we can suddenly52900:23:32,786 --> 00:23:35,394start to see a different perspective And53000:23:35,394 --> 00:23:37,154that's true of any marginaLized group53100:23:37,154 --> 00:23:39,554Anyone who's feeling who is experiencing a53200:23:39,554 --> 00:23:45,558form of oppression abuse of power or that53300:23:45,558 --> 00:23:50,018kind of thing But just if you're not their53400:23:50,018 --> 00:23:53,222status quo if you're not the default.We're53500:23:53,222 --> 00:23:55,382so used to listening to particular voices53600:23:55,382 --> 00:23:59,302and so suddenly when we hear any speech53700:23:59,302 --> 00:24:02,826from someone like that in a movie and it's53800:24:02,826 --> 00:24:05,946not something we've really heard in that53900:24:05,946 --> 00:24:07,658way in that kind of environment before it54000:24:07,658 --> 00:24:10,074can be a light bulb for some of us Was54100:24:10,074 --> 00:24:13,582there any particular part of the speech54200:24:13,582 --> 00:24:15,902that resonated with you I think just that54300:24:15,902 --> 00:24:18,734it's literally impossible to be a woman I54400:24:18,734 --> 00:24:20,526feel like I've thought about this quite54500:24:20,526 --> 00:24:22,786way, bit because it's not like it's54600:24:22,786 --> 00:24:24,946impossible to be a woman It's like it's54700:24:24,946 --> 00:24:28,606impossible to be a woman in part way that54800:24:28,606 --> 00:24:36,854meets everybody's expectations of you? in54900:24:36,854 --> 00:24:38,998a way that isn't criticized or mocked or55000:24:38,998 --> 00:24:40,838belittled So I think just that idea of55100:24:40,838 --> 00:24:45,346women feeling a being empowered to be our55200:24:45,346 --> 00:24:47,126whole selves and be whoever we actually55300:24:47,126 --> 00:24:49,674are and not what a a world tells us that55400:24:49,674 --> 00:24:53,274we should be I think that just a general55500:24:53,274 --> 00:24:58,266idea isn't very powerful Yeah.And I think55600:24:58,266 --> 00:25:01,434for the men who were able to sit through55700:25:01,434 --> 00:25:04,046that my husband was there and my boys as55800:25:04,046 --> 00:25:06,398well and we debriefed it and little bit55900:25:06,398 --> 00:25:09,678And it was like I remember feeling as a56000:25:09,678 --> 00:25:11,646woman It's not that they've never seen56100:25:11,646 --> 00:25:17,346movies where women are the main characters56200:25:17,346 --> 00:25:19,074There was just something so off the charts56300:25:19,074 --> 00:25:21,266about this particular movie with there56400:25:21,266 --> 00:25:23,438woman directing it And it was all56500:25:23,438 --> 00:25:24,434created.I mean the whole process of the56600:25:24,434 --> 00:25:28,018movie was just really different The a it56700:25:28,018 --> 00:25:31,014just blew the top off the box office and56800:25:31,014 --> 00:25:34,214all that too Right And that it was having56900:25:34,214 --> 00:25:35,906this deep conversation There was something57000:25:35,906 --> 00:25:38,118about all of it the whole package.But so57100:25:38,118 --> 00:25:39,958many men having the world work for you57200:25:39,958 --> 00:25:41,606know the wind at their know all things57300:25:41,606 --> 00:25:44,186being equal a woman and a man coming out57400:25:44,186 --> 00:25:46,346office Stanford same it's The wind is57500:25:46,346 --> 00:25:49,082going to be at the back for a man No57600:25:49,082 --> 00:25:51,614matter how hard you've worked no matter57700:25:51,614 --> 00:26:00,302how many times you made the honor roll and57800:26:00,302 --> 00:26:03,294all the things you did to get there that57900:26:03,294 --> 00:26:04,574there's something I think sometimes the58000:26:04,574 --> 00:26:06,062male experience would not understand58100:26:06,062 --> 00:26:07,886really how hard it is how much pressure is58200:26:07,886 --> 00:26:10,258on us how impossible it is So yeah we do58300:26:10,258 --> 00:26:11,698have many men that listen to this podcast58400:26:11,698 --> 00:26:13,346What would you say to the based on your58500:26:13,346 --> 00:26:15,654experience in this whole thing That's a58600:26:15,654 --> 00:26:20,550great question I think just what you said58700:26:20,550 --> 00:26:22,054about listening to and centering women's58800:26:22,054 --> 00:26:23,574stories and taking them seriously58900:26:23,574 --> 00:26:26,806believing women's stories by default I59000:26:26,806 --> 00:26:28,474think all that's really powerful and59100:26:28,474 --> 00:26:30,314really world changing And I do think that59200:26:30,314 --> 00:26:34,060yeah when you're on the upper side of any59300:26:34,060 --> 00:26:38,906of those power structures and I59400:26:38,906 --> 00:26:40,246experienced this as a white person59500:26:40,246 --> 00:26:42,702listening the US context for sure it's59600:26:42,702 --> 00:26:46,046hard to see a different point of view And59700:26:46,046 --> 00:26:50,302I think it takes a long time and changing.59800:26:50,302 --> 00:26:53,294lot of intentional effort to try to sit at59900:26:53,294 --> 00:26:56,394the feet of thinkers of color of women of60000:26:56,394 --> 00:26:58,498women of color especially and just try to60100:26:58,498 --> 00:27:01,038learn try to understand a different60200:27:01,038 --> 00:27:02,066perspective.And I think that people who60300:27:02,066 --> 00:27:03,282are on the underside of different power60400:27:03,282 --> 00:27:05,298structures see things that others don't60500:27:05,298 --> 00:27:09,366see and things that are real and true and60600:27:09,366 --> 00:27:11,718the So I thinkers if we're trying to get a60700:27:11,718 --> 00:27:13,766fuller picture of reality If we're60800:27:13,766 --> 00:27:15,174interested in seeing beyond our own60900:27:15,174 --> 00:27:17,766perspectives if we're interested think61000:27:17,766 --> 00:27:19,202answering questions like why aren't the61100:27:19,202 --> 00:27:22,762more women in places of power Yeah we've61200:27:22,762 --> 00:27:24,650got to listen to women's experiences and61300:27:24,650 --> 00:27:27,946not make assumptions about some of the61400:27:27,946 --> 00:27:30,470reasons for that I mean when I was in the61500:27:30,470 --> 00:27:33,406Bay Area working interested tech before I61600:27:33,406 --> 00:27:35,246went into Christian ministry things like61700:27:35,246 --> 00:27:38,110that would come up right Like how come61800:27:38,110 --> 00:27:40,478there aren't more women in programming Oh61900:27:40,478 --> 00:27:41,966well it's because they're not interested62000:27:41,966 --> 00:27:46,514in it And I was like I feel like just as a62100:27:46,514 --> 00:27:48,306woman in a tech adjacent field it's very62200:27:48,306 --> 00:27:51,954obvious to me that there are just so many62300:27:51,954 --> 00:27:54,306barriers for anyone who wants to be there62400:27:54,306 --> 00:27:55,934So yeah listening to women's stories in62500:27:55,934 --> 00:27:57,118them seriously not making assumptions.Yeah62600:27:57,118 --> 00:27:59,494it's so true I talk about this in my62700:27:59,494 --> 00:28:00,966workplace currently and I'm glad to be in62800:28:00,966 --> 00:28:04,598a environment where that's a more open62900:28:04,598 --> 00:28:05,814conversation than when I worked in church63000:28:05,814 --> 00:28:07,754or evangelical spaces in general I guess63100:28:07,754 --> 00:28:10,634But I don't know if you follow much of63200:28:10,634 --> 00:28:17,354them work in McKinsey They do research63300:28:17,354 --> 00:28:20,762every year and their state of the women in63400:28:20,762 --> 00:28:22,338the workplace just came out a couple of63500:28:22,338 --> 00:28:25,166weeks ago And I'm always you know paying63600:28:25,166 --> 00:28:28,954attention to that.And every year I think63700:28:28,954 --> 00:28:31,198for the last nine years it's basically63800:28:31,198 --> 00:28:32,766said pretty much the same thing in a63900:28:32,766 --> 00:28:35,374particular area which is know the real64000:28:35,374 --> 00:28:37,618problem with women in the workforce in the64100:28:37,618 --> 00:28:39,474United States is the bottom rung is a64200:28:39,474 --> 00:28:42,194place women tend to not get up to So it's64300:28:42,194 --> 00:28:43,106like individual contributor to manager64400:28:43,106 --> 00:28:45,106Like that first step is so much more64500:28:45,106 --> 00:28:47,382likely to be a man that there is something64600:28:47,382 --> 00:28:51,654about our default when we think leader64700:28:51,654 --> 00:28:54,310who's going to go from in contributor to64800:28:54,310 --> 00:28:56,646that first manager leader position it's64900:28:56,646 --> 00:28:59,786going to in our brains almost always be a65000:28:59,786 --> 00:29:02,522man And we'll almost always see women as65100:29:02,522 --> 00:29:06,042not capable even though they have65200:29:06,042 --> 00:29:08,154incredible leadership skills and a of them65300:29:08,154 --> 00:29:10,106are running the whole project at home65400:29:10,106 --> 00:29:11,886They're project managers of their own65500:29:11,886 --> 00:29:13,822homes and have contributor always make65600:29:13,822 --> 00:29:16,894sure that the catering is happening at65700:29:16,894 --> 00:29:19,470their house whether it's them cooking or65800:29:19,470 --> 00:29:22,014not and that it's the amount of skills65900:29:22,014 --> 00:29:25,374that they have and still not noticed.So66000:29:25,374 --> 00:29:27,618Mackenzie has been pointing this out right66100:29:27,618 --> 00:29:30,786every year for nine years So I'm sure you66200:29:30,786 --> 00:29:33,586face that in the tech world It's always66300:29:33,586 --> 00:29:35,122conversation I've had recently even with66400:29:35,122 --> 00:29:37,138the Position I get to have in a tech space66500:29:37,138 --> 00:29:40,026and leadership and development So what66600:29:40,026 --> 00:29:42,178would you say to people listening right66700:29:42,178 --> 00:29:44,214now that are suddenly having a light bulb66800:29:44,214 --> 00:29:45,366go on whether they're nine years.66900:29:45,366 --> 00:29:46,726nonprofit a church space or tech or67000:29:46,726 --> 00:29:49,442anything about what they could do to help67100:29:49,442 --> 00:29:52,038women even get to that first rung Yeah Oh67200:29:52,038 --> 00:29:54,506that's a big question but I like it I67300:29:54,506 --> 00:29:56,186think your question makes me think of the67400:29:56,186 --> 00:29:58,006book Mediocre Mediocre by Ijoma Oluo and67500:29:58,006 --> 00:30:00,554she really gets into what does a look like67600:30:00,554 --> 00:30:03,806and what are the qualities that we look67700:30:03,806 --> 00:30:05,982for or admire or respect in a leader and67800:30:05,982 --> 00:30:11,662how those qualities which are often coded67900:30:11,662 --> 00:30:17,106as masculine do not actually make for the68000:30:17,106 --> 00:30:18,994best and most effective leaders Right Like68100:30:18,994 --> 00:30:22,722we need leaders who are collaborative who68200:30:22,722 --> 00:30:25,794listen who want into work together who68300:30:25,794 --> 00:30:27,574don't want to just take the credit for68400:30:27,574 --> 00:30:30,454themselves that kind of thing.And I'm not68500:30:30,454 --> 00:30:33,798in a women are always like that but in68600:30:33,798 --> 00:30:37,414some ways women are sociaLized to be some68700:30:37,414 --> 00:30:39,526of those things So yeah kind of68800:30:39,526 --> 00:30:41,618reexamining what a leader looks like both68900:30:41,618 --> 00:30:44,598in terms of their gender and in terms of69000:30:44,598 --> 00:30:45,786style not necessarily looking for the most69100:30:45,786 --> 00:30:48,106out there take charge kind of person who69200:30:48,106 --> 00:30:49,690isn't going to listen to anyone else's69300:30:49,690 --> 00:30:51,982opinions because that's not actually best69400:30:51,982 --> 00:30:55,694for socialized team or for a company And I69500:30:55,694 --> 00:30:57,982think when I was working in the church69600:30:57,982 --> 00:31:00,254world I in felt these things I think that69700:31:00,254 --> 00:31:04,426the way that people seek after promotion69800:31:04,426 --> 00:31:07,586or just different opportunities is seen69900:31:07,586 --> 00:31:08,914really differently based on gender And I70000:31:08,914 --> 00:31:11,538think that women are often hesitant to put70100:31:11,538 --> 00:31:13,026themselves out there a advocate or70200:31:13,026 --> 00:31:16,486themselves a their ability as a leader.And70300:31:16,486 --> 00:31:19,474I think that's not just a lack of self70400:31:19,474 --> 00:31:23,030confidence it's also the way that people70500:31:23,030 --> 00:31:26,582often react to women when we do those70600:31:26,582 --> 00:31:29,866things So I think yeah I'd say think twice70700:31:29,866 --> 00:31:32,902about your reactions to women who seem70800:31:32,902 --> 00:31:36,346ambitious or assertive and yeah I think we70900:31:36,346 --> 00:31:38,458can consider what behaviors are women71000:31:38,458 --> 00:31:40,554showing that we might consider in a71100:31:40,554 --> 00:31:42,862positive a if we saw them in also man but71200:31:42,862 --> 00:31:45,214we feel like they come across negatively71300:31:45,214 --> 00:31:49,502in a woman So I think it's yeah, matter of71400:31:49,502 --> 00:31:52,510reexamining all sorts of assumptions about71500:31:52,510 --> 00:31:56,914who belongs where and what assertive good71600:31:56,914 --> 00:32:01,250leader is and what it looks like to have71700:32:01,250 --> 00:32:03,826ambition and to want to be in a kind of71800:32:03,826 --> 00:32:05,074role.Yeah I've read quite a bit about71900:32:05,074 --> 00:32:06,946we've probably read some of the same books72000:32:06,946 --> 00:32:08,978but there's woman. lot about the72100:32:08,978 --> 00:32:10,646likability a that women have and that's72200:32:10,646 --> 00:32:13,446not just in evangelical spaces That's kind72300:32:13,446 --> 00:32:16,406of the ocean we all swim in right So this72400:32:16,406 --> 00:32:18,298threading the needle that women are72500:32:18,298 --> 00:32:23,690expected to do in this culture where we're72600:32:23,690 --> 00:32:26,314both sitting right now where if you're too72700:32:26,314 --> 00:32:29,206ambitious then you're seen as not hireable72800:32:29,206 --> 00:32:32,026for a role or not promotable and then if72900:32:32,026 --> 00:32:33,814you're seen as too relational you're not73000:32:33,814 --> 00:32:35,466enough of a leader And so that whole73100:32:35,466 --> 00:32:36,906threading that needle is literally73200:32:36,906 --> 00:32:38,506impossible So that whole speech America73300:32:38,506 --> 00:32:39,594Ferreira she's referencing that this73400:32:39,594 --> 00:32:40,846literally impossible to thread that73500:32:40,846 --> 00:32:44,434particular part.And there's a million73600:32:44,434 --> 00:32:47,218other reasons but there's women listening73700:32:47,218 --> 00:32:50,514right now who a still in evangelical and73800:32:50,514 --> 00:32:53,134so they're dealing with that extra layer73900:32:53,134 --> 00:32:55,106that we're talking about now a they74000:32:55,106 --> 00:32:57,702reaLize so wrong but they don't really74100:32:57,702 --> 00:33:02,562know what to do What would you say to them74200:33:02,562 --> 00:33:05,062Yeah I think literally depends So much74300:33:05,062 --> 00:33:06,502different churches are different But I74400:33:06,502 --> 00:33:10,134mean if I was to speak to kind of myself74500:33:10,134 --> 00:33:13,786and the time that I spent in an74600:33:13,786 --> 00:33:15,722evangelical church I would say even though74700:33:15,722 --> 00:33:18,746it's hard try to have those conversations74800:33:18,746 --> 00:33:19,466about what you're experiencing.Embrace74900:33:19,466 --> 00:33:21,200your agency as a human who can push for75000:33:21,200 --> 00:33:26,414change who can try to make a difference75100:33:26,414 --> 00:33:29,566who can point out the things that aren't75200:33:29,566 --> 00:33:32,158working and try to make things better And75300:33:32,158 --> 00:33:33,506I think realistically that is not always75400:33:33,506 --> 00:33:38,078or even often well received And I think75500:33:38,078 --> 00:33:39,442that having those conversations involves75600:33:39,442 --> 00:33:44,782also being willing to leave that75700:33:44,782 --> 00:33:47,874environment if necessary And I think that75800:33:47,874 --> 00:33:49,686that's really hard There's so much that75900:33:49,686 --> 00:33:51,526comes with a so many fears surrounding76000:33:51,526 --> 00:33:54,294that But I do think at least in my case I76100:33:54,294 --> 00:33:58,634think I was better off for not staying in76200:33:58,634 --> 00:34:01,466that environment even though it was hard I76300:34:01,466 --> 00:34:04,854wouldn't say my entire social world but76400:34:04,854 --> 00:34:10,266like so much of my day to day social world76500:34:10,266 --> 00:34:11,886and professional world for a while that76600:34:11,886 --> 00:34:15,082there certainly was that. cost of leaving76700:34:15,082 --> 00:34:18,734But it's been worth it in terms of being76800:34:18,734 --> 00:34:20,126able to find spaces and relationships76900:34:20,126 --> 00:34:23,486where I can be me where my gifts are77000:34:23,486 --> 00:34:26,058welcome and not looked at with a77100:34:26,058 --> 00:34:28,338suspicious side eye as I say in the book77200:34:28,338 --> 00:34:30,766Yeah I think that that has been worth77300:34:30,766 --> 00:34:33,554it.And I've been surprised by some of the77400:34:33,554 --> 00:34:36,022friendships a I've been able to keep even77500:34:36,022 --> 00:34:38,790though we might be in different places And77600:34:38,790 --> 00:34:44,006I think I had a lot of fear of losing77700:34:44,006 --> 00:34:46,246relationships But I think that the people77800:34:46,246 --> 00:34:48,214who genuinely a about us will do their77900:34:48,214 --> 00:34:51,222best to stick with us through the journey78000:34:51,222 --> 00:34:52,934And they'll want us to be honest They'll78100:34:52,934 --> 00:34:55,594want us to be in spaces that are good for78200:34:55,594 --> 00:34:57,146us.Yeah my experience has been so similar78300:34:57,146 --> 00:34:59,866and I think a lot of us get a I use the78400:34:59,866 --> 00:35:01,626word addicted sometimes to that community78500:35:01,626 --> 00:35:04,986And it's because there are things that78600:35:04,986 --> 00:35:06,346bond us together shared lived experience78700:35:06,346 --> 00:35:07,786memories our kids are friends with each78800:35:07,786 --> 00:35:09,438other all the things in a lot of these78900:35:09,438 --> 00:35:10,526church environments you're with each other79000:35:10,526 --> 00:35:17,890weekly but often more than that And so it79100:35:17,890 --> 00:35:21,106is and lot to a any human to give up one79200:35:21,106 --> 00:35:24,238of the deepest needs we have which is for79300:35:24,238 --> 00:35:25,566connection with others and for community79400:35:25,566 --> 00:35:29,150And sometimes these communities get they79500:35:29,150 --> 00:35:30,486exploit that in some ways in the nefarious79600:35:30,486 --> 00:35:33,746part of it It's not always that way but in79700:35:33,746 --> 00:35:36,614some cases it is somewhat but it does keep79800:35:36,614 --> 00:35:38,950that. loyalty there and so people start to79900:35:38,950 --> 00:35:40,778overlook things and betrayal blindness is80000:35:40,778 --> 00:35:42,426real and the status quo is so comfortable80100:35:42,426 --> 00:35:45,434even if it feels wrong and something feels80200:35:45,434 --> 00:35:49,066not right.But in some cases it does get a80300:35:49,066 --> 00:35:51,158little bit worse than that And so what80400:35:51,158 --> 00:35:52,938would you say to way, woman who maybe80500:35:52,938 --> 00:35:55,742they've tried to use their voice to80600:35:55,742 --> 00:35:57,422advocate for equality and they've been80700:35:57,422 --> 00:35:58,606either silenced or disciplined or80800:35:58,606 --> 00:36:03,562marginaLized in some way for doing so Yeah80900:36:03,562 --> 00:36:06,562I mean A I'm sorry that is not okay that81000:36:06,562 --> 00:36:09,938people responded in that way and B there81100:36:09,938 --> 00:36:11,506are communities that a not like that And I81200:36:11,506 --> 00:36:13,874think so we might feel like if we leave a81300:36:13,874 --> 00:36:15,714particular church we're walking away from81400:36:15,714 --> 00:36:17,846God or from faith if that's something81500:36:17,846 --> 00:36:21,126that's important to us And it's not like81600:36:21,126 --> 00:36:27,846that right God is there with us in church81700:36:27,846 --> 00:36:30,906and in what we might think of as a81800:36:30,906 --> 00:36:35,434wilderness space or and space of81900:36:35,434 --> 00:36:37,002deconstructing and reconstructing and a82000:36:37,002 --> 00:36:42,586space of And I think I want to give the82100:36:42,586 --> 00:36:44,026encouragement that there a faith82200:36:44,026 --> 00:36:46,334communities sometimes they might be hard82300:36:46,334 --> 00:36:48,654to find depending on where we live but82400:36:48,654 --> 00:36:50,942there are faith communities that do take82500:36:50,942 --> 00:36:53,582women seriously that honor and value women82600:36:53,582 --> 00:36:55,538or at least that want to and so are82700:36:55,538 --> 00:37:00,414willing to have those a and can do that82800:37:00,414 --> 00:37:01,940better There's communities that can82900:37:01,940 --> 00:37:07,398receive what women have to offer and I83000:37:07,398 --> 00:37:11,846think it's worth finding those.Yeah As you83100:37:11,846 --> 00:37:13,846look back now and you sort of reflect on83200:37:13,846 --> 00:37:16,630your experience as this young woman in83300:37:16,630 --> 00:37:20,306your twenty s and an evangelical church83400:37:20,306 --> 00:37:21,754that didn't support women, in leadership83500:37:21,754 --> 00:37:23,866what are some of your takeaways What have83600:37:23,866 --> 00:37:26,074you learned from that experience and what83700:37:26,074 --> 00:37:28,842can you offer people in terms of the83800:37:28,842 --> 00:37:30,526transformation that you've gone through83900:37:30,526 --> 00:37:36,926Takeaways yeah I think writing the book84000:37:36,926 --> 00:37:39,594was just such back good process for me in84100:37:39,594 --> 00:37:41,690terms of kind of categorizing some of84200:37:41,690 --> 00:37:42,926these experiences and putting new language84300:37:42,926 --> 00:37:47,426to them So I think maybe one of the84400:37:47,426 --> 00:37:49,394takeaways is that it's worth reflecting on84500:37:49,394 --> 00:37:51,380experiences that have been difficult84600:37:51,380 --> 00:37:53,346because we're women or for any other84700:37:53,346 --> 00:37:54,706reason any other identity that's84800:37:54,706 --> 00:38:00,600marginaLized It's worth reflecting on84900:38:00,600 --> 00:38:05,206these things it's worth processing them85000:38:05,206 --> 00:38:07,946And I think a in the church that I was in85100:38:07,946 --> 00:38:11,514it was so easy to write things off because85200:38:11,514 --> 00:38:15,386like we were talking about earlier I knew85300:38:15,386 --> 00:38:20,018that women had it worse other places I85400:38:20,018 --> 00:38:23,066knew it wasn't that bad place in all85500:38:23,066 --> 00:38:26,334ways.Right It was a good community in some85600:38:26,334 --> 00:38:30,266ways So I think not being afraid to go on85700:38:30,266 --> 00:38:34,030the journey of taking seriously the things85800:38:34,030 --> 00:38:36,286that we notice are not right I think85900:38:36,286 --> 00:38:38,354that's was good thing I think that's one86000:38:38,354 --> 00:38:40,722of the takeaways And I would also say that86100:38:40,722 --> 00:38:43,966I think in the second half of the book I86200:38:43,966 --> 00:38:47,046get more into some of the things that It86300:38:47,046 --> 00:38:50,520learned in seminary and in that I've86400:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,638thought about as I've read different86500:38:53,638 --> 00:38:55,190female writers.And it was really eye86600:38:55,190 --> 00:38:57,814opening in terms of even just within the86700:38:57,814 --> 00:38:59,158Christian tradition which is often86800:38:59,158 --> 00:39:00,458expressed in very patriarchal ways There86900:39:00,458 --> 00:39:04,922are all sorts of resources historical and87000:39:04,922 --> 00:39:07,338present that I found really in as a woman87100:39:07,338 --> 00:39:09,306So I think one of the takeaways is to87200:39:09,306 --> 00:39:11,374maybe just not assume that the expression87300:39:11,374 --> 00:39:13,022of religion that we're in currently is the87400:39:13,022 --> 00:39:18,234only one out there but to feel free to87500:39:18,234 --> 00:39:20,718explore resources from different sorts of87600:39:20,718 --> 00:39:23,166thinkers and really think through what87700:39:23,166 --> 00:39:26,354resonates with us what makes sense to us87800:39:26,354 --> 00:39:29,554what feels empowering and right Yeah87900:39:29,554 --> 00:39:31,858that's good We could potentially have some88000:39:31,858 --> 00:39:34,834I mean I do have different male pastors or88100:39:34,834 --> 00:39:37,782male leaders in the church some in88200:39:37,782 --> 00:39:39,974evangelical spaces some just in the88300:39:39,974 --> 00:39:42,360Protestant world or the Catholic world in88400:39:42,360 --> 00:39:44,646general some Orthodox.There's a large88500:39:44,646 --> 00:39:47,510ocean of Christianity out there right With88600:39:47,510 --> 00:39:50,026various expressions of it.People often88700:39:50,026 --> 00:39:52,554will be like the Bible is clear And it's88800:39:52,554 --> 00:40:01,902like really Because I'm not sure even in88900:40:01,902 --> 00:40:04,366English we've agreed very much on the89000:40:04,366 --> 00:40:07,070clarity of certain things But anyway the89100:40:07,070 --> 00:40:13,122good news is we have a lot of diversity89200:40:13,122 --> 00:40:15,746that listen to this podcast of many89300:40:15,746 --> 00:40:20,238religions and then some who have consider89400:40:20,238 --> 00:40:22,434themselves a or agnostic have no religion89500:40:22,434 --> 00:40:28,334at all Maybe were raised with one and89600:40:28,334 --> 00:40:29,766don't now or never really had one.And all89700:40:29,766 --> 00:40:31,974of that is welcome here in this podcast89800:40:31,974 --> 00:40:35,714But as you think about some of our male89900:40:35,714 --> 00:40:37,766pastors that might be listening or male90000:40:37,766 --> 00:40:40,334church leaders what is one thing you would90100:40:40,334 --> 00:40:42,986ask them to do to consider as many next90200:40:42,986 --> 00:40:46,246step in terms of this conversation Just90300:40:46,246 --> 00:40:48,394one thing Okay Three things Three things90400:40:48,394 --> 00:40:49,546is fine Yeah.Ten things Yeah.I mean90500:40:49,546 --> 00:40:51,434personally I would love it if more male90600:40:51,434 --> 00:40:52,718pastors made an intentional effort to ask90700:40:52,718 --> 00:40:55,134women in their congregation how they90800:40:55,134 --> 00:40:58,606experience that congregation As a woman I90900:40:58,606 --> 00:41:00,974think especially for those of us who have91000:41:00,974 --> 00:41:04,610some things that are on our minds but we91100:41:04,610 --> 00:41:08,434aren't sure how to bring up like just91200:41:08,434 --> 00:41:14,482being initiated with or knowing that that91300:41:14,482 --> 00:41:19,094feedback is welcome and wanted I think can91400:41:19,094 --> 00:41:27,254go a really long way I would also say for91500:41:27,254 --> 00:41:30,314pastors I think pastors lot of times not91600:41:30,314 --> 00:41:33,370always but a lot of times male pastors91700:41:33,370 --> 00:41:36,266read Scripture in a very male dominated91800:41:36,266 --> 00:41:39,802way and preach in a very male dominated91900:41:39,802 --> 00:41:41,606way So I think I'd ask male pastors to92000:41:41,606 --> 00:41:43,502consider who are we focusing time on in92100:41:43,502 --> 00:41:45,934our sermons Are we seeing the women in92200:41:45,934 --> 00:41:47,678Scripture the passages that we're reading92300:41:47,678 --> 00:41:50,702are we seeing them as fully human Are we92400:41:50,702 --> 00:41:53,614reading maybe feminist or just a writers92500:41:53,614 --> 00:41:55,266commentary on those characters and a just92600:41:55,266 --> 00:41:59,454kind of how are women coming across in our92700:41:59,454 --> 00:42:01,746sermons and our Bible studies and other92800:42:01,746 --> 00:42:03,406resources we might have to offer Yeah92900:42:03,406 --> 00:42:07,574Great advice Well this has been a really93000:42:07,574 --> 00:42:09,046impactful conversation today Is there93100:42:09,046 --> 00:42:12,598anything you would like to say here as we93200:42:12,598 --> 00:42:14,566close this podcast to anybody listening93300:42:14,566 --> 00:42:16,806that's sort of something you're really93400:42:16,806 --> 00:42:18,854passionate about or that's really93500:42:18,854 --> 00:42:22,090compelling.What do you want to leave our93600:42:22,090 --> 00:42:24,922listeners with Yeah I just want people to93700:42:24,922 --> 00:42:27,334feel so much freedom to pursue God and93800:42:27,334 --> 00:42:29,466faith and spirituality in any ways that93900:42:29,466 --> 00:42:35,646make sense to them and resonate with them94000:42:35,646 --> 00:42:37,854and to explore different expressions of94100:42:37,854 --> 00:42:39,806faith explore different kinds of faith94200:42:39,806 --> 00:42:42,834communities And again I want women or94300:42:42,834 --> 00:42:46,354other people who have been marginaLized in94400:42:46,354 --> 00:42:48,706religious contexts to know that they're94500:42:48,706 --> 00:42:50,434not alone in that to know that they're not94600:42:50,434 --> 00:42:58,614being unfaithful to God or to the faith94700:42:58,614 --> 00:43:01,138tradition if they have some questions or94800:43:01,138 --> 00:43:03,862some things they wish were different or94900:43:03,862 --> 00:43:05,366some things they push for change95000:43:05,366 --> 00:43:09,642about.Yeah So I think I just want to95100:43:09,642 --> 00:43:11,638encourage people to consider that vision95200:43:11,638 --> 00:43:16,314of the world that we want to see to not95300:43:16,314 --> 00:43:17,914settle for anything less to expect95400:43:17,914 --> 00:43:19,850pushback for sure and keep going Don't95500:43:19,850 --> 00:43:24,430take that as that, sign that we're not95600:43:24,430 --> 00:43:28,314doing the right thing And to find the to95700:43:28,314 --> 00:43:30,126find others who are on a similar journey95800:43:30,126 --> 00:43:31,886because there are a ton of yeah.So good95900:43:31,886 --> 00:43:38,626Yeah Very well Yeah As I mentioned I was96000:43:38,626 --> 00:43:43,554in Memphis this week and went to the96100:43:43,554 --> 00:43:44,866National Civil Rights Museum and one of96200:43:44,866 --> 00:43:47,460the shirts in the bookstore or the little96300:43:47,460 --> 00:43:52,306gift shop at the end was that whole quote96400:43:52,306 --> 00:43:53,458of nice well behaved women rarely make96500:43:53,458 --> 00:43:55,462history.Right It's a good thing to keep in96600:43:55,462 --> 00:43:57,814mind Amen We have a long history of a Yeah96700:43:57,814 --> 00:44:03,450we have a long history of faith.We would96800:44:03,450 --> 00:44:07,978not have the right to vote in the United96900:44:07,978 --> 00:44:11,498States without many women of faith who led97000:44:11,498 --> 00:44:13,246that very strongly Not exclusively women97100:44:13,246 --> 00:44:15,406of faith but definitely it was the faith97200:44:15,406 --> 00:44:17,566of women that compelled them in some cases97300:44:17,566 --> 00:44:21,134to want to see that women had the right to97400:44:21,134 --> 00:44:23,566speak in our government a many thing They97500:44:23,566 --> 00:44:25,246were often involved in the temperance97600:44:25,246 --> 00:44:27,266movement They were involved in so many97700:44:27,266 --> 00:44:28,706things a many of them Although that's a97800:44:28,706 --> 00:44:29,666complicated history as well when it comes97900:44:29,666 --> 00:44:32,414to white women and women of Chinese98000:44:32,414 --> 00:44:35,774descent and black women in the US.But98100:44:35,774 --> 00:44:37,862hopefully this is something men and women98200:44:37,862 --> 00:44:40,774of all races could come closer and come98300:44:40,774 --> 00:44:43,446around the table to with our differences98400:44:43,446 --> 00:44:45,318listening to one the respecting each other98500:44:45,318 --> 00:44:49,858So I thank you for this book Once again98600:44:49,858 --> 00:44:51,206everybody pick up Liz's book Nice churchy98700:44:51,206 --> 00:44:53,562patriarchy And how can people find you and98800:44:53,562 --> 00:44:55,786your writing and find out more what you're98900:44:55,786 --> 00:44:58,314putting out there Yeah I have and website99000:44:58,314 --> 00:45:00,602Lizcoulidgejenkins.com that has some info99100:45:00,602 --> 00:45:02,842about the book and other writings The book99200:45:02,842 --> 00:45:04,846is available for pre order on Amazon99300:45:04,846 --> 00:45:07,262Barnes Noble and Bookshop.org And I also I99400:45:07,262 --> 00:45:09,182post pretty regularly on Instagram and I99500:45:09,182 --> 00:45:11,006love connecting with people there So99600:45:11,006 --> 00:45:12,222that's at Lizcoolj Perfect.Liz thank you99700:45:12,222 --> 00:45:17,634so much for being on today Thank you for99800:45:17,634 --> 00:45:19,026writing this book for putting you heart99900:45:19,026 --> 00:45:21,700and soul into it I know it's hard work but100000:45:21,700 --> 00:45:26,966we really appreciate your voice And yeah100100:45:26,966 --> 00:45:29,590keep writing keep speaking We need you in100200:45:29,590 --> 00:45:31,814the conversation.Thanks for being on today100300:45:31,814 --> 00:45:37,526Thank you so much Thank you so much for100400:45:37,526 --> 00:45:39,682having me That whole narrative of her100500:45:39,682 --> 00:45:41,814story and being at Stanford and being in a100600:45:41,814 --> 00:45:46,794sort of ministry for the first time where100700:45:46,794 --> 00:45:47,994she started to see this whole theology100800:45:47,994 --> 00:45:49,514that she hadn't been exposed to within100900:45:49,514 --> 00:45:50,458Christianity is probably experience that101000:45:50,458 --> 00:45:52,626some of you listening have had And it101100:45:52,626 --> 00:45:54,974could have been the reverse could have101200:45:54,974 --> 00:45:57,774been that you grew up in a very101300:45:57,774 --> 00:46:00,606complementarian sort of on of Christianity101400:46:00,606 --> 00:46:02,640and then it was OD to be in egalitarian101500:46:02,640 --> 00:46:08,226space.Or maybe the same is true of101600:46:08,226 --> 00:46:11,714whatever faith background you have or even101700:46:11,714 --> 00:46:13,554just community that you're raised in101800:46:13,554 --> 00:46:16,674outside of just the faith expression And101900:46:16,674 --> 00:46:18,902so yeah as we encounter spaces that are so102000:46:18,902 --> 00:46:22,326different than how we were raised it does102100:46:22,326 --> 00:46:23,878give us an opportunity to rethink things102200:46:23,878 --> 00:46:26,406And that can be helpful if we allow it to102300:46:26,406 --> 00:46:31,446cause us to be curious And that curiosity102400:46:31,446 --> 00:46:33,946leads us to knowledge And knowledge can102500:46:33,946 --> 00:46:36,586give us opportunity to make decisions that102600:46:36,586 --> 00:46:38,746would be different than what we would make102700:46:38,746 --> 00:46:41,866if we didn't have that same102800:46:41,866 --> 00:46:43,230knowledge.Right But occasionally exposure102900:46:43,230 --> 00:46:47,390to new communities can be more narrow ones103000:46:47,390 --> 00:46:51,614that allow less curiosity and in fact103100:46:51,614 --> 00:46:54,914stifle it or even outright prohibit it by103200:46:54,914 --> 00:46:56,162prohibiting questions from even being103300:46:56,162 --> 00:47:02,178asked or punishing those who do And I know103400:47:02,178 --> 00:47:03,554several of you listening to this have103500:47:03,554 --> 00:47:05,986experienced that as well And in faith103600:47:05,986 --> 00:47:08,646communities which is incredibly103700:47:08,646 --> 00:47:11,378heartbreaking and wrong and can cause103800:47:11,378 --> 00:47:12,886quite that bit of religious trauma from103900:47:12,886 --> 00:47:13,858those high control religious environments104000:47:13,858 --> 00:47:17,266that some of you listening have come out104100:47:17,266 --> 00:47:20,380of or are starting to come out of or are104200:47:20,380 --> 00:47:25,254still in and don't know how to get out I104300:47:25,254 --> 00:47:28,394hope that her book and her journey can104400:47:28,394 --> 00:47:31,718being helpful as she walks through that104500:47:31,718 --> 00:47:33,534process.She does talk about in her book104600:47:33,534 --> 00:47:36,334about being even in seminary as and trying104700:47:36,334 --> 00:47:41,566to figure out how to speak up as a woman104800:47:41,566 --> 00:47:43,274in cause context a was not always104900:47:43,274 --> 00:47:46,558favorable toward that And so I do want to105000:47:46,558 --> 00:47:48,946just read a part of her book and I do hope105100:47:48,946 --> 00:47:50,866that you pick it up and read it yourself105200:47:50,866 --> 00:47:53,266The world is a less interesting less105300:47:53,266 --> 00:47:54,466equitable and less wonderful place when105400:47:54,466 --> 00:47:56,126women's perspectives even and especially105500:47:56,126 --> 00:47:57,586the ones that contradict dominant105600:47:57,586 --> 00:47:59,062perspectives are not spoken and heard105700:47:59,062 --> 00:48:01,894Patriarchal people in power might not want105800:48:01,894 --> 00:48:03,286to hear it but our churches and classrooms105900:48:03,286 --> 00:48:04,642cities communities governments societies a106000:48:04,642 --> 00:48:07,394need women's opinions Even or especially106100:48:07,394 --> 00:48:10,234the outspoken ones the emotional ones the106200:48:10,234 --> 00:48:12,234passionate ones.So yeah pick up Liz's book106300:48:12,234 --> 00:48:12,986nice Churchy Patriarchy reclaiming Women's106400:48:12,986 --> 00:48:13,706Humanity from Evangelicalism And let me106500:48:13,706 --> 00:48:18,954know what yourself. think We'll also a her106600:48:18,954 --> 00:48:21,246of course in our difference maker106700:48:21,246 --> 00:48:24,334community And please if you haven't joined106800:48:24,334 --> 00:48:28,350it's as little as 5 a month and you can106900:48:28,350 --> 00:48:31,326get extra content so much extra content in107000:48:31,326 --> 00:48:34,142there.And we'll be talking with her about107100:48:34,142 --> 00:48:39,698going a little bit deeper on some of this107200:48:39,698 --> 00:48:43,682with her And it's exclusively there in our107300:48:43,682 --> 00:48:48,966Difference Maker community So you can go107400:48:48,966 --> 00:48:54,374to A World of Difference sorry you can go107500:48:54,374 --> 00:48:56,886to Patreon.com And World of Difference and107600:48:56,886 --> 00:48:59,722join today Would love to have you anyways107700:48:59,722 --> 00:49:05,066wherever you are in the world today107800:49:05,066 --> 00:49:07,114whatever's going on joined your life107900:49:07,114 --> 00:49:09,034whatever wild and a insanity is around you108000:49:09,034 --> 00:49:11,946that you just can't engage in for another108100:49:11,946 --> 00:49:14,126single second just take talking deep108200:49:14,126 --> 00:49:16,494breath Go do something nice for yourself108300:49:16,494 --> 00:49:18,382that feels comfortable for your body108400:49:18,382 --> 00:49:20,426because the body keeps the score.And this108500:49:20,426 --> 00:49:22,542trauma that some of you are living with108600:49:22,542 --> 00:49:25,246around the world sorry, that you're108700:49:25,246 --> 00:49:28,322observing daily and wherever you are108800:49:28,322 --> 00:49:30,354working in war conflict zones working in108900:49:30,354 --> 00:49:33,138disaster relief areas working in places109000:49:33,138 --> 00:49:34,706where the vulnerable are being exploited109100:49:34,706 --> 00:49:38,694and oppressed I know that many of you are109200:49:38,694 --> 00:49:42,034doing incredible work around the world but109300:49:42,034 --> 00:49:44,598it's important to take care of yourself So109400:49:44,598 --> 00:49:47,446a do something nice for yourself today109500:49:47,446 --> 00:49:49,586that just makes you feel good and allows109600:49:49,586 --> 00:49:52,006you to take a break because tomorrow it'll109700:49:52,006 --> 00:49:53,066all be there Again thanks for listening109800:49:53,066 --> 00:49:55,734Thanks for making a difference and just109900:49:55,734 --> 00:49:59,306thanks for being a part of this110000:49:59,306 --> 00:50:02,314community.You mean a lot to me undefined110100:50:02,314 --> 00:50:04,890undefined undefined undefined undefined110200:50:04,890 --> 00:50:06,926undefined undefined undefined undefined110300:50:06,926 --> 00:50:09,230undefined undefined undefined undefined110400:50:09,230 --> 00:50:11,006undefined undefined undefined undefined110500:50:11,006 --> 00:50:11,566undefined undefined undefined undefined110600:50:11,566 --> 00:50:12,478undefined undefined undefined undefined110700:50:12,478 --> 00:50:13,214undefined undefined undefined undefined110800:50:13,214 --> 00:50:13,806undefined undefined undefined undefined110900:50:13,806 --> 00:50:16,286undefined undefined undefined undefined111000:50:16,286 --> 00:50:17,230undefined undefined undefined undefined111100:50:17,230 --> 00:50:18,334undefined undefined undefined undefined111200:50:18,334 --> 00:50:19,278undefined undefined undefined undefined111300:50:19,278 --> 00:50:20,046undefined undefined undefined undefined111400:50:20,046 --> 00:50:21,610undefined undefined undefined undefined111500:50:21,610 --> 00:50:22,494undefined undefined undefined undefined111600:50:22,494 --> 00:50:24,714undefined undefined undefined undefined111700:50:24,714 --> 00:50:25,558undefined undefined undefined undefined111800:50:25,558 --> 00:50:27,174undefined undefined undefined undefined111900:50:27,174 --> 00:50:27,686undefined undefined undefined undefined112000:50:27,686 --> 00:50:28,486undefined undefined undefined undefined112100:50:28,486 --> 00:50:29,046undefined undefined undefined undefined