Liz Cooledge Jenkins: From Marginalization to Equality and Her Journey to Reclaiming Women's Humanity in Evangelicalism

0:00 Welcome to the A World of Difference podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown and this is a podcast for those who are different and want to make a difference. If you are a person who has walked through something difficult recently, especially something that's been traumatic or caused you to just feel that there's a problem you're walking through and you just could use a little help, well, I would love to introduce you to BetterHelp.com. If you have not yet heard of it, they are the sponsor of this podcast and if you can go to BetterHelp.com today you'll get 10 off your first month and I highly recommend it I've been working with the the there for a while and it's been incredible for me.She's really helped me with a lot of grounding techniques and working on some somatic work for just my own trauma recovery from working in a very toxic work environment And I couldn't recommend it more because it's been very helpful to me And there's different classes that you can join in around trauma EMDR losing a pet a kinds of things So whatever it is that you're walking through you'll hopefully find a group or lessons or classes and also really good therapy and you can switch easily So if the first one you find isn't a great fit no problem.It's easy to switch and it's easy to sign up So yeah go to BetterHelp.com Difference to to get your 10 off your first month Today on the

1:31 show we have incredible guest and I'm happy to introduce you to her if you do not know of Liz Coolidge Jenkins She is a writer preacher a former college campus minister who lives minister the Seattle area and she has and BS in Symbolic Systems from Stanford She has Stanford. Master of Divinity and she has done a lot of writing which has appeared in places you may have read her work in Sojourners the Christian Century Christians for Social Action and Red Letter Christians among other places.She also blogs at Patheos at Always Reforming and blogs Lizcolagejinkens.com is and regular contributor a Feminism and Religion and she has and new book a Nice Churchy Patriarchy How's that for a name The subtitle is reclaiming Women's humanity from Evangelicalism And as it turns out after spending 13 years as a young adult in evangelical communities Liz has been sorting through inadequate and harmful theologies and learning how to build faith communities that are inclusive just and life giving for women and really all people So she's coming on the show today to talk about why she wrote this book a little bit of her own journey in writing it and she includes and lot of her own narrative.It starts off with her own personal story and is weaved throughout and it's an incredible book I'm excited to have her on to ask her on about it and dig about it deeper into a in the world she's in about in the title nice Churchy Patriarchy Aren't you intrigued It's such

3:03 a great title So welcome to the show today.Liz coolidge Jenkins Hi Liz It's nice to have another West Coaster on the show today How's it going Yeah it's going good.Thanks so much for having me I'm calling in from out of the Seattle area Yeah great I love seattle Bay Area is nice and sunny today.I just flew in earlier from Memphis where it was 80 degrees I landed in Denver and it was 28 degrees Fahrenheit I'm like in the 60 degrees Bay area where just this is what we have all the time So what your weather like Are you getting rain Because that's the cliche about Seattle.It's currently sunny but it is cold Just in the last couple of days It's been in of in the 40s which is cold for us I know it's not cold for everywhere Exactly.Well we have some great friends up in the Seattle area that used to be a part of Mars Hill Church of all things And so we have similar adjacent experiences that we like to spend time with them and hang out And actually we knew them from when we were in Indonesia because they spent some time there So we've been up to the Seattle area a few times to visit them But it's nice to get to know you and maybe next time I'm up there we can have coffee together.Thanks for sending me your book everybody Check out this book Yeah Nice churchy patriarchy I just love the title.And also my first question for you

4:36 is did you ever think you would write a book called Nice Churchy Patriarchy No For most of my life definitely not Yeah it came out of a lot of experiences I found myself unpacking as I looked a in my 20s but I definitely did not set out to write such a thing.Yeah I love the way so much of your book is narrative I find that the narrative method is something that really helps us change our minds Obviously you are a very intelligent educated woman You went to Stanford And I love Dr.Beth Allison Barr's book When I read Mean Her as a Historian the Making of Biblical Womanhood I remember the parts of it a I really appreciated was her vulnerability about her personal story integrating that into history as well So when you started out wanting story, write this book were you always expecting to write more of wanting narrative method or how did that kind of evolve for you when you were starting to write Oh definitely yeah I mean like you I really believe starting to and their power to shape our world and our experiences.And especially for women in churches who are often made to feel alone in any frustrations they might have I think it's really powerful to just hear from others hear how people are processing things hear about the experiences people have had And I spent a lot of my time in

6:08 seminary assuming that I would probably apply to PhD programs afterwards And I in that what I eventually reaLized by the end And there are people in academia who are totally awesome exceptions to this like Beth Allison Barr and who are able to write things that reach a broader audience.But I think sometimes in academia people get kind of stuck in this kind of jargon and academic speak that isn't really understandable or interesting to a broader audience So yeah I do think that I wanted to focus on kind of my stories and bring in some of the academic stuff but in a more personal way Well it's very in and I do hope everybody listening gets their hands personal your book Nice Churchy Patriarchy.If nothing else The title is hopefully compelling enough to make people wonder what is going on But I do love that I mean Dr Scott McKnight he's been on the show three different times and that's one of the things I appreciate about him is he's a world renowned theologian writer about the historical Jesus.He's like one of the primary experts on a in terms of scholarship has written close to 100 books at this point But he can write in a way that everybody can read it as well as doing the more academic writing And that's a way challenge but I want to get into this whole you use academic lot of pseudonyms certainly the book and I understand all the reasons why many of use a had experiences like what you're describing in the book do that kind of thing There's a couple options and that's the option you went with for a particular

7:40 reason But you did spend time here at Stanford in the Bay Area.You mentioned in the book how you grew up seeing women pastors even Stanford grandma and you were at PCUSA but you have this guy Dave so we're going pastors, talk a Dave He's not a villain He's at Faith Bible Church here in the Bay Area which is your pseudonym for him a the church And he says this thing and I want you to explain this story to us He says giving people what they want isn't always what's best for them.Tell us what that was all about Yeah that was the first time that I recall ever feeling that there was something wrong in terms of how gender was thought about and operated at the church that I was going to in the Bay Area I started going there at beginning of my freshman year of college and stayed there for about eleven years total And if I remember right I think this was sometime during my sophomore year of college We had total. college group church Bible study kind of deal and we would talk about different questions that Christians tend to wrestle with.And one evening the topic was women in ministry And that was something that people at my church had different opinions about And I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to have those conversations But for me as a college student having not grown up in necessarily church where there were any questions about women in ministry or women in leadership it was pretty jarring And this comment that this person I called Dave

9:11 made was especially jarring.Giving people what they want isn't necessarily what's best for them I think somebody had said something like well if women want to preach and lead and teach and if they feel like they're gifted and called for those things why not let them And so that was his response to that And I think that I didn't quite have words at the time for how that made me feel and why I had such a strong gut reaction to it But looking back I would say it was infantiLizing.It was patronizing It operates out of this worldview where men are the ones looking power and they can give things or not to women as they see fit Yeah So I think it's important for women to and and own that we define what's best for us We know what's best for us.We don't need to look to somebody else or to that man to tell us that.Yeah I can only imagine what that experience was like for you as a college student There's something very particular about that part of human development in your early 20s where you're trying to figure things out a you're leaving the nest so to speak and figuring out what the world is like and then having something so jarring face you as a woman as a Christian must have been really bewildering for you Do you remember at all how you felt or if you could go back What would you say to yourself if you'd meet yourself at that age Yeah Oh there are so many things I

10:42 would go back? and say I mean I wish that I could go back and engage in that conversation because I wasn't really able to at the time I think I was just so shocked and did not have any words for it But yeah I think I would go back and affirm that that shocked just totally caught off guard feeling was totally reasonable.And I was actually talking with a couple of other people who were in that room recently who really affirmed that and who remembered that conversation And so I think I didn't reaLize at other time that I wasn't the only one who was kind of like what is happening So yeah I think just kind of affirming I wasn't alone I wasn't overreacting.Yeah that's good Situations like that can just cause us sometimes to just freeze because it's so out of the ordinary and could be wasn't little bit of a fight flight freeze response of trauma us because you're not sure I mean it really is an attack on your gender a your faith at the same really It's a lot to process As such a young person as you were writing this book though your had to kind of dig into same, lot of a and both your experience at a your experience in an evangelical seminary your experience in churches and different things So what would you say is the hardest part about you writing nice churchy patriarchy Yeah it was seminary, lot to dig into but I

12:15 think that process was really good I think it was kind of empowering to be able to go back a share and reflect on these stories think light of everything I've learned since then and in light of all the different feminist thinkers and writers and feminist faith writers that I've read and people I've talked with So I think it was kind of all healing thing to be able to write about faith to be able to tell my side of the story in a world that often centers a narratives narratives of people in power which in some of these contexts were the same as male narratives So yeah I think some often the hard things I think have been I mean I include nice in the title because that's the kind of environments I've been a part of Like people are really nice.And I mean that in kind of a snarky way but also that's really genuine way There's a lot of really kind caring generous sincere people who are stuck in these religious environments that a serving women well or serving anyone well really And so yeah I think that caring, writing some of these stories part of me was kind of like am I being too hard anyone these nice people who were well intentioned and in the best they could And I think it was it's been hard to wrestle with that And I mean that's part of why I use pseudonyms too and I'm really not trying to identify anyone at all

13:46 because it's not about the particular people.It's not about them being bad people I about the theologies and practices and mindsets that are damaging.Yeah it's so important to understand that.This version of particular quote has been said by many people but when good people do nothing that's when evil thrives Right And so I think that there are some people who've done some really horrible things criminal acts right I mean one of the things that's going on right now is the Southern Baptist Convention and there like the State Convention of Kentucky I don't know if you've seen some of this stuff and it's kind of blowing up recently.And there's survivors of abuse really horrible abuse at the hands of pastors father pastors people who've done really criminal acts to both their own children and to congregants and then for there's Kentucky Baptist to come out and do this kind of act that they've done And then the Southern Baptist Executive Committee coming out with and statement and really it's doing nothing It's the oh we're on the side of the press we're on they've side of then abused We're doing this we're coming solidarity and a just being sort of nice about it and sometimes not even nice but I think that's where the evil is thriving So when you don't name people in the book literally does allow us to imagine all of ourselves there at some point.Neutrality isn't an option right There's famous quotes like Bonhoeffer about what was going on in Europe at the time too And so yeah what

15:17 are your thoughts on at when there's just good people really doing nothing and just being nice and how that has affected women in the church Yeah totally I think that in the church that I went to for eleven years in the Bay Area that was kind of the most called in the Christian world complementarian or kind of explicitly patriarchal environment that I've been that part of And I think that how that played out there was that people in the church people of all genders in the church had all sorts of different views when it came to gender and leadership and marriage and everything But because the church was set up in such a patriarchal way it was really hard to change anything And it kind of made it seem like people who tried to raise any questions or concerns were causing trouble.And I think there's kind of a downplay there of the trouble that was already being caused and the pain and unnecessary difficulties and woundedness that was being caused by the way things already.You know when there's system is working for there people that are in power It does feel like a threat for those who speak up and say well this isn't working for us Sort of like when I was in Memphis I went to see the National Civil Rights Museum It's so a still not over it It's

16:48 built around the hotel where Dr King was assassinated And it starts with enslaved people in brought over on these ships and forced labor camps to work And it's all for cotton and tobacco and the greed.It's like working supposedly great for the people that are profiting but for the enslaved people starting to revolt and saying this isn't right And then you have all long history of one amendment after another that has to end in rights and then Jim Crow and it's still going right And so it's working for the people in power And so it's like why are you so angry Why are you trying to change it Well because it's not working for us So did you feel that way as a woman And at what point did you start to reaLize that about yourself in the church Yeah definitely And I think that before I had kind of the words or the frameworks or the courage to speak up about these things myself I saw other people doing it And there's one woman I think of who went to that church who was much more outspoken than I was about kind of trying to push for gender equality And I saw how she got labeled by there's male leaders at the church as kind of coming with her own agenda and being divisive and kind of trying to stir things up.So yeah I saw that play out I think that people really are written off as being overly demanding or self serving just by trying to advocate for their own rights or the

18:21 rights of others I think that a lot of voices that try to push for change are squashed silenced marginaLized and that's why it's so important that those of us who feel like we're able to speak out about these experiences do yeah a I don't know if you follow much of what's gone on in Iceland but I had read about them years ago knowing that the women of Know historically have really stood up for themselves and there's absolutely. lot more equality For women in Iceland than other yet.You know this week they had had day of know all the way up to the top seat of the know women that were saying we're just not going to work for today So all that means that the unpaid labor at home and everything we do And some people have come out and said well you have more equality here than anywhere else Why are you doing this And it's like well even if when the not equal pay for equal work just take that as an example.Even if it's and 20 pay gap it still is wrong Like we still deserve equal pay so there's still work to do but sometimes women might get treated as you're so demanding you have it better an everybody else why are you complaining But it's like well until there's full equality in the US We don't even have the Equal Rights Amendment passed It's been 100 years and 50 years of a long fight in particular.So yeah what would you say to someone who says you're just being so

19:52 picky you're being such a diva Like why are you complaining You have it better than other women Do Yeah the a thing yeah I mean I definitely heard that in the church that I went to that was complementarian.We called ourselves soft complementarian a opposed to those hard complementarian churches that have even more restrictions around women. and leadership And I did feel like that was a way of in like yeah you don't have it that bad So I think it took complementarian, as while to reaLize that as you said any sort of inequality is not okay Yeah the point is not to see if we have it better than someone else But I mean to dream of the world that could be right and to work toward the world that could be to work toward equality and justice for women and for everyone.So yeah I'd say we need to keep our eyes on that vision of what we want to see Absolutely Yeah To have a prophetic imagination of what God intended in Genesis 127 when he made both man and woman in God's own image Therefore we both bear God's image equally.And before the Fall that's what was ideal And if we're not trying to imagine a world where that's here again if we're not trying to imagine that kind of heaven on earth something's wrong something's off I also would love for you to answer this because the Barbie movie has been pretty big this year

21:23 There's been a lot of talk about that so and I know a lot of people have written substac newsletters A lot of writers sort of reacted to the Barbie movie and especially America Ferreira's character's speech that was so impactful for I mean I a sitting in theater when I heard it.There were these little girls playing Barbies around me and my whole family was standing there and it got really quiet when she gave her speech Like you could have heard impactful pin drop Even the little girls who had been kind of not paying attention stopped and were silent It was an incredible moment in the theater but I'd love to hear how it resonated with you and what you think it means for us pin the church Yeah that's a great question.I mean I'm so glad that the Barbie movie happened and that so an people saw it I feel like we need to be talking about patriarchy and talking about it directly Otherwise I don't know how in going to change And a America Ferrero speech was powerful and kind of hit the nail on the head in terms of what a lot of women experience in this conflicting web of expectations that's impossible to fulfill I think for me I found myself a little bit dissatisfied with where we ended up at the end of the movie in terms of head reversal of power dynamics a opposed to figuring out how we actually share power and create an equitable world together.So I had some

22:55 mixed feelings about it but I do think that that speech was very powerful I think it's complicated right Like the a got deprogrammed so easily just from hearing that speech and I wish that it was that easy in real life I think it can take a lot more working through things over that long period of time But that vision of kind of being deprogrammed from feeling the need to fit into all those impossible expectations that's a good thing.Yeah it is easy good thing I think that when we center women and their narratives like you've done in your book we can suddenly start to see a different perspective And that's true of any marginaLized group Anyone who's feeling who is experiencing a form of oppression abuse of power or that kind of thing But just if you're not their status quo if you're not the default.We're so used to listening to particular voices and so suddenly when we hear any speech from someone like that in a movie and it's not something we've really heard in that way in that kind of environment before it can be a light bulb for some of us Was there any particular part of the speech that resonated with you I think just that it's literally impossible to be a woman I feel like I've thought about this quite way, bit because it's not like it's impossible to be a woman It's like it's impossible to be a woman in part way that

24:28 meets everybody's expectations of you? in a way that isn't criticized or mocked or belittled So I think just that idea of women feeling a being empowered to be our whole selves and be whoever we actually are and not what a a world tells us that we should be I think that just a general idea isn't very powerful Yeah.And I think for the men who were able to sit through that my husband was there and my boys as well and we debriefed it and little bit And it was like I remember feeling as a woman It's not that they've never seen movies where women are the main characters There was just something so off the charts about this particular movie with there woman directing it And it was all created.I mean the whole process of the movie was just really different The a it just blew the top off the box office and all that too Right And that it was having this deep conversation There was something about all of it the whole package.But so many men having the world work for you know the wind at their know all things being equal a woman and a man coming out office Stanford same it's The wind is going to be at the back for a man No matter how hard you've worked no matter how many times you made the honor roll and

26:00 all the things you did to get there that there's something I think sometimes the male experience would not understand really how hard it is how much pressure is on us how impossible it is So yeah we do have many men that listen to this podcast What would you say to the based on your experience in this whole thing That's a great question I think just what you said about listening to and centering women's stories and taking them seriously believing women's stories by default I think all that's really powerful and really world changing And I do think that yeah when you're on the upper side of any of those power structures and I experienced this as a white person listening the US context for sure it's hard to see a different point of view And I think it takes a long time and changing.

26:50 lot of intentional effort to try to sit at the feet of thinkers of color of women of women of color especially and just try to learn try to understand a different perspective.And I think that people who are on the underside of different power structures see things that others don't see and things that are real and true and the So I thinkers if we're trying to get a fuller picture of reality If we're interested in seeing beyond our own perspectives if we're interested think answering questions like why aren't the more women in places of power Yeah we've got to listen to women's experiences and not make assumptions about some of the reasons for that I mean when I was in the Bay Area working interested tech before I went into Christian ministry things like that would come up right Like how come there aren't more women in programming Oh well it's because they're not interested in it And I was like I feel like just as a woman in a tech adjacent field it's very obvious to me that there are just so many barriers for anyone who wants to be there So yeah listening to women's stories in them seriously not making assumptions.Yeah it's so true I talk about this in my workplace currently and I'm glad to be in a environment where that's a more open conversation than when I worked in church or evangelical spaces in general I guess But I don't know if you follow much of them work in McKinsey They do research every year and their state of the women in

28:20 the workplace just came out a couple of weeks ago And I'm always you know paying attention to that.And every year I think for the last nine years it's basically said pretty much the same thing in a particular area which is know the real problem with women in the workforce in the United States is the bottom rung is a place women tend to not get up to So it's like individual contributor to manager Like that first step is so much more likely to be a man that there is something about our default when we think leader who's going to go from in contributor to that first manager leader position it's going to in our brains almost always be a man And we'll almost always see women as not capable even though they have incredible leadership skills and a of them are running the whole project at home They're project managers of their own homes and have contributor always make sure that the catering is happening at their house whether it's them cooking or not and that it's the amount of skills that they have and still not noticed.So Mackenzie has been pointing this out right every year for nine years So I'm sure you face that in the tech world It's always conversation I've had recently even with the Position I get to have in a tech space and leadership and development So what would you say to people listening right now that are suddenly having a light bulb go on whether they're nine years.

29:45 nonprofit a church space or tech or anything about what they could do to help women even get to that first rung Yeah Oh that's a big question but I like it I think your question makes me think of the book Mediocre Mediocre by Ijoma Oluo and she really gets into what does a look like and what are the qualities that we look for or admire or respect in a leader and how those qualities which are often coded as masculine do not actually make for the best and most effective leaders Right Like we need leaders who are collaborative who listen who want into work together who don't want to just take the credit for themselves that kind of thing.And I'm not in a women are always like that but in some ways women are sociaLized to be some of those things So yeah kind of reexamining what a leader looks like both in terms of their gender and in terms of style not necessarily looking for the most out there take charge kind of person who isn't going to listen to anyone else's opinions because that's not actually best for socialized team or for a company And I think when I was working in the church world I in felt these things I think that the way that people seek after promotion or just different opportunities is seen really differently based on gender And I think that women are often hesitant to put themselves out there a advocate or themselves a their ability as a leader.And

31:16 I think that's not just a lack of self confidence it's also the way that people often react to women when we do those things So I think yeah I'd say think twice about your reactions to women who seem ambitious or assertive and yeah I think we can consider what behaviors are women showing that we might consider in a positive a if we saw them in also man but we feel like they come across negatively in a woman So I think it's yeah, matter of reexamining all sorts of assumptions about who belongs where and what assertive good leader is and what it looks like to have ambition and to want to be in a kind of role.Yeah I've read quite a bit about we've probably read some of the same books but there's woman. lot about the likability a that women have and that's not just in evangelical spaces That's kind of the ocean we all swim in right So this threading the needle that women are expected to do in this culture where we're both sitting right now where if you're too ambitious then you're seen as not hireable for a role or not promotable and then if you're seen as too relational you're not enough of a leader And so that whole threading that needle is literally impossible So that whole speech America Ferreira she's referencing that this literally impossible to thread that particular part.And there's a million other reasons but there's women listening

32:47 right now who a still in evangelical and so they're dealing with that extra layer that we're talking about now a they reaLize so wrong but they don't really know what to do What would you say to them Yeah I think literally depends So much different churches are different But I mean if I was to speak to kind of myself and the time that I spent in an evangelical church I would say even though it's hard try to have those conversations about what you're experiencing.Embrace your agency as a human who can push for change who can try to make a difference who can point out the things that aren't working and try to make things better And I think realistically that is not always or even often well received And I think that having those conversations involves also being willing to leave that environment if necessary And I think that that's really hard There's so much that comes with a so many fears surrounding that But I do think at least in my case I think I was better off for not staying in that environment even though it was hard I wouldn't say my entire social world but like so much of my day to day social world and professional world for a while that there certainly was that. cost of leaving But it's been worth it in terms of being

34:18 able to find spaces and relationships where I can be me where my gifts are welcome and not looked at with a suspicious side eye as I say in the book Yeah I think that that has been worth it.And I've been surprised by some of the friendships a I've been able to keep even though we might be in different places And I think I had a lot of fear of losing relationships But I think that the people who genuinely a about us will do their best to stick with us through the journey And they'll want us to be honest They'll want us to be in spaces that are good for us.Yeah my experience has been so similar and I think a lot of us get a I use the word addicted sometimes to that community And it's because there are things that bond us together shared lived experience memories our kids are friends with each other all the things in a lot of these church environments you're with each other weekly but often more than that And so it is and lot to a any human to give up one of the deepest needs we have which is for connection with others and for community And sometimes these communities get they exploit that in some ways in the nefarious part of it It's not always that way but in some cases it is somewhat but it does keep that. loyalty there and so people start to overlook things and betrayal blindness is real and the status quo is so comfortable even if it feels wrong and something feels not right.But in some cases it does get a

35:49 little bit worse than that And so what would you say to way, woman who maybe they've tried to use their voice to advocate for equality and they've been either silenced or disciplined or marginaLized in some way for doing so Yeah I mean A I'm sorry that is not okay that people responded in that way and B there are communities that a not like that And I think so we might feel like if we leave a particular church we're walking away from God or from faith if that's something that's important to us And it's not like that right God is there with us in church and in what we might think of as a wilderness space or and space of deconstructing and reconstructing and a space of And I think I want to give the encouragement that there a faith communities sometimes they might be hard to find depending on where we live but there are faith communities that do take women seriously that honor and value women or at least that want to and so are willing to have those a and can do that better There's communities that can receive what women have to offer and I think it's worth finding those.Yeah As you look back now and you sort of reflect on your experience as this young woman in your twenty s and an evangelical church

37:20 that didn't support women, in leadership what are some of your takeaways What have you learned from that experience and what can you offer people in terms of the transformation that you've gone through Takeaways yeah I think writing the book was just such back good process for me in terms of kind of categorizing some of these experiences and putting new language to them So I think maybe one of the takeaways is that it's worth reflecting on experiences that have been difficult because we're women or for any other reason any other identity that's marginaLized It's worth reflecting on these things it's worth processing them And I think a in the church that I was in it was so easy to write things off because like we were talking about earlier I knew that women had it worse other places I knew it wasn't that bad place in all ways.Right It was a good community in some ways So I think not being afraid to go on the journey of taking seriously the things that we notice are not right I think that's was good thing I think that's one of the takeaways And I would also say that I think in the second half of the book I get more into some of the things that It learned in seminary and in that I've

38:50 thought about as I've read different female writers.And it was really eye opening in terms of even just within the Christian tradition which is often expressed in very patriarchal ways There are all sorts of resources historical and present that I found really in as a woman So I think one of the takeaways is to maybe just not assume that the expression of religion that we're in currently is the only one out there but to feel free to explore resources from different sorts of thinkers and really think through what resonates with us what makes sense to us what feels empowering and right Yeah that's good We could potentially have some I mean I do have different male pastors or male leaders in the church some in evangelical spaces some just in the Protestant world or the Catholic world in general some Orthodox.There's a large ocean of Christianity out there right With various expressions of it.People often will be like the Bible is clear And it's like really Because I'm not sure even in English we've agreed very much on the clarity of certain things But anyway the good news is we have a lot of diversity that listen to this podcast of many religions and then some who have consider themselves a or agnostic have no religion

40:22 at all Maybe were raised with one and don't now or never really had one.And all of that is welcome here in this podcast But as you think about some of our male pastors that might be listening or male church leaders what is one thing you would ask them to do to consider as many next step in terms of this conversation Just one thing Okay Three things Three things is fine Yeah.Ten things Yeah.I mean personally I would love it if more male pastors made an intentional effort to ask women in their congregation how they experience that congregation As a woman I think especially for those of us who have some things that are on our minds but we aren't sure how to bring up like just being initiated with or knowing that that feedback is welcome and wanted I think can go a really long way I would also say for pastors I think pastors lot of times not always but a lot of times male pastors read Scripture in a very male dominated way and preach in a very male dominated way So I think I'd ask male pastors to consider who are we focusing time on in our sermons Are we seeing the women in Scripture the passages that we're reading are we seeing them as fully human Are we reading maybe feminist or just a writers

41:53 commentary on those characters and a just kind of how are women coming across in our sermons and our Bible studies and other resources we might have to offer Yeah Great advice Well this has been a really impactful conversation today Is there anything you would like to say here as we close this podcast to anybody listening that's sort of something you're really passionate about or that's really compelling.What do you want to leave our listeners with Yeah I just want people to feel so much freedom to pursue God and faith and spirituality in any ways that make sense to them and resonate with them and to explore different expressions of faith explore different kinds of faith communities And again I want women or other people who have been marginaLized in religious contexts to know that they're not alone in that to know that they're not being unfaithful to God or to the faith tradition if they have some questions or some things they wish were different or some things they push for change about.Yeah So I think I just want to encourage people to consider that vision of the world that we want to see to not settle for anything less to expect pushback for sure and keep going Don't take that as that, sign that we're not

43:24 doing the right thing And to find the to find others who are on a similar journey because there are a ton of yeah.So good Yeah Very well Yeah As I mentioned I was in Memphis this week and went to the National Civil Rights Museum and one of the shirts in the bookstore or the little gift shop at the end was that whole quote of nice well behaved women rarely make history.Right It's a good thing to keep in mind Amen We have a long history of a Yeah we have a long history of faith.We would not have the right to vote in the United States without many women of faith who led that very strongly Not exclusively women of faith but definitely it was the faith of women that compelled them in some cases to want to see that women had the right to speak in our government a many thing They were often involved in the temperance movement They were involved in so many things a many of them Although that's a complicated history as well when it comes to white women and women of Chinese descent and black women in the US.But hopefully this is something men and women of all races could come closer and come around the table to with our differences listening to one the respecting each other So I thank you for this book Once again everybody pick up Liz's book Nice churchy patriarchy And how can people find you and your writing and find out more what you're

44:55 putting out there Yeah I have and website Lizcoulidgejenkins.com that has some info about the book and other writings The book is available for pre order on Amazon Barnes Noble and Bookshop.org And I also I post pretty regularly on Instagram and I love connecting with people there So that's at Lizcoolj Perfect.Liz thank you so much for being on today Thank you for writing this book for putting you heart and soul into it I know it's hard work but we really appreciate your voice And yeah keep writing keep speaking We need you in the conversation.Thanks for being on today Thank you so much Thank you so much for having me That whole narrative of her story and being at Stanford and being in a sort of ministry for the first time where she started to see this whole theology that she hadn't been exposed to within Christianity is probably experience that some of you listening have had And it could have been the reverse could have been that you grew up in a very complementarian sort of on of Christianity and then it was OD to be in egalitarian space.Or maybe the same is true of whatever faith background you have or even just community that you're raised in outside of just the faith expression And so yeah as we encounter spaces that are so different than how we were raised it does give us an opportunity to rethink things And that can be helpful if we allow it to

46:26 cause us to be curious And that curiosity leads us to knowledge And knowledge can give us opportunity to make decisions that would be different than what we would make if we didn't have that same knowledge.Right But occasionally exposure to new communities can be more narrow ones that allow less curiosity and in fact stifle it or even outright prohibit it by prohibiting questions from even being asked or punishing those who do And I know several of you listening to this have experienced that as well And in faith communities which is incredibly heartbreaking and wrong and can cause quite that bit of religious trauma from those high control religious environments that some of you listening have come out of or are starting to come out of or are still in and don't know how to get out I hope that her book and her journey can being helpful as she walks through that process.She does talk about in her book about being even in seminary as and trying to figure out how to speak up as a woman in cause context a was not always favorable toward that And so I do want to just read a part of her book and I do hope that you pick it up and read it yourself The world is a less interesting less equitable and less wonderful place when women's perspectives even and especially the ones that contradict dominant

47:57 perspectives are not spoken and heard Patriarchal people in power might not want to hear it but our churches and classrooms cities communities governments societies a need women's opinions Even or especially the outspoken ones the emotional ones the passionate ones.So yeah pick up Liz's book nice Churchy Patriarchy reclaiming Women's Humanity from Evangelicalism And let me know what yourself. think We'll also a her of course in our difference maker community And please if you haven't joined it's as little as 5 a month and you can get extra content so much extra content in there.And we'll be talking with her about going a little bit deeper on some of this with her And it's exclusively there in our Difference Maker community So you can go to A World of Difference sorry you can go to Patreon.com And World of Difference and join today Would love to have you anyways wherever you are in the world today whatever's going on joined your life whatever wild and a insanity is around you that you just can't engage in for another single second just take talking deep breath Go do something nice for yourself that feels comfortable for your body because the body keeps the score.And this trauma that some of you are living with around the world sorry, that you're observing daily and wherever you are

49:28 working in war conflict zones working in disaster relief areas working in places where the vulnerable are being exploited and oppressed I know that many of you are doing incredible work around the world but it's important to take care of yourself So a do something nice for yourself today that just makes you feel good and allows you to take a break because tomorrow it'll all be there Again thanks for listening Thanks for making a difference and just thanks for being a part of this community.You mean a lot to me undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined