Liz Cooledge Jenkins: From Marginalization to Equality and Her Journey to Reclaiming Women's Humanity in Evangelicalism

1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,458 Welcome to the A World of Difference 2 00:00:04,458 --> 00:00:06,766 podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown and this is 3 00:00:06,766 --> 00:00:08,606 a podcast for those who are different and 4 00:00:08,606 --> 00:00:12,526 want to make a difference. If you are a 5 00:00:12,526 --> 00:00:14,558 person who has walked through something 6 00:00:14,558 --> 00:00:17,386 difficult recently, especially something 7 00:00:17,386 --> 00:00:20,862 that's been traumatic or caused you to 8 00:00:20,862 --> 00:00:23,258 just feel that there's a problem you're 9 00:00:23,258 --> 00:00:24,654 walking through and you just could use a 10 00:00:24,654 --> 00:00:27,746 little help, well, I would love to 11 00:00:27,746 --> 00:00:30,166 introduce you to BetterHelp.com. If you 12 00:00:30,166 --> 00:00:32,466 have not yet heard of it, they are the 13 00:00:32,466 --> 00:00:34,246 sponsor of this podcast and if you can go 14 00:00:34,246 --> 00:00:38,246 to BetterHelp.com today you'll get 10 off 15 00:00:38,246 --> 00:00:41,306 your first month and I highly recommend it 16 00:00:41,306 --> 00:00:45,194 I've been working with the the there for a 17 00:00:45,194 --> 00:00:47,546 while and it's been incredible for 18 00:00:47,546 --> 00:00:49,258 me.She's really helped me with a lot of 19 00:00:49,258 --> 00:00:51,582 grounding techniques and working on some 20 00:00:51,582 --> 00:00:54,606 somatic work for just my own trauma 21 00:00:54,606 --> 00:00:58,186 recovery from working in a very toxic work 22 00:00:58,186 --> 00:01:01,198 environment And I couldn't recommend it 23 00:01:01,198 --> 00:01:03,326 more because it's been very helpful to me 24 00:01:03,326 --> 00:01:05,130 And there's different classes that you can 25 00:01:05,130 --> 00:01:09,342 join in around trauma EMDR losing a pet a 26 00:01:09,342 --> 00:01:10,786 kinds of things So whatever it is that 27 00:01:10,786 --> 00:01:12,718 you're walking through you'll hopefully 28 00:01:12,718 --> 00:01:15,086 find a group or lessons or classes and 29 00:01:15,086 --> 00:01:17,426 also really good therapy and you can 30 00:01:17,426 --> 00:01:19,686 switch easily So if the first one you find 31 00:01:19,686 --> 00:01:21,698 isn't a great fit no problem.It's easy to 32 00:01:21,698 --> 00:01:23,782 switch and it's easy to sign up So yeah go 33 00:01:23,782 --> 00:01:27,222 to BetterHelp.com Difference to to get 34 00:01:27,222 --> 00:01:31,258 your 10 off your first month Today on the 35 00:01:31,258 --> 00:01:33,654 show we have incredible guest and I'm 36 00:01:33,654 --> 00:01:35,898 happy to introduce you to her if you do 37 00:01:35,898 --> 00:01:39,194 not know of Liz Coolidge Jenkins She is a 38 00:01:39,194 --> 00:01:40,806 writer preacher a former college campus 39 00:01:40,806 --> 00:01:42,458 minister who lives minister the Seattle 40 00:01:42,458 --> 00:01:45,594 area and she has and BS in Symbolic 41 00:01:45,594 --> 00:01:48,078 Systems from Stanford She has Stanford. 42 00:01:48,078 --> 00:01:50,574 Master of Divinity and she has done a lot 43 00:01:50,574 --> 00:01:52,058 of writing which has appeared in places 44 00:01:52,058 --> 00:01:53,634 you may have read her work in Sojourners 45 00:01:53,634 --> 00:01:55,806 the Christian Century Christians for 46 00:01:55,806 --> 00:01:57,954 Social Action and Red Letter Christians 47 00:01:57,954 --> 00:02:00,434 among other places.She also blogs at 48 00:02:00,434 --> 00:02:02,930 Patheos at Always Reforming and blogs 49 00:02:02,930 --> 00:02:07,038 Lizcolagejinkens.com is and regular 50 00:02:07,038 --> 00:02:08,806 contributor a Feminism and Religion and 51 00:02:08,806 --> 00:02:11,846 she has and new book a Nice Churchy 52 00:02:11,846 --> 00:02:15,046 Patriarchy How's that for a name The 53 00:02:15,046 --> 00:02:17,598 subtitle is reclaiming Women's humanity 54 00:02:17,598 --> 00:02:20,378 from Evangelicalism And as it turns out 55 00:02:20,378 --> 00:02:22,746 after spending 13 years as a young adult 56 00:02:22,746 --> 00:02:25,830 in evangelical communities Liz has been 57 00:02:25,830 --> 00:02:28,406 sorting through inadequate and harmful 58 00:02:28,406 --> 00:02:30,778 theologies and learning how to build faith 59 00:02:30,778 --> 00:02:32,502 communities that are inclusive just and 60 00:02:32,502 --> 00:02:34,894 life giving for women and really all 61 00:02:34,894 --> 00:02:37,166 people So she's coming on the show today 62 00:02:37,166 --> 00:02:39,646 to talk about why she wrote this book a 63 00:02:39,646 --> 00:02:41,834 little bit of her own journey in writing 64 00:02:41,834 --> 00:02:44,898 it and she includes and lot of her own 65 00:02:44,898 --> 00:02:46,274 narrative.It starts off with her own 66 00:02:46,274 --> 00:02:49,154 personal story and is weaved throughout 67 00:02:49,154 --> 00:02:52,834 and it's an incredible book I'm excited to 68 00:02:52,834 --> 00:02:55,986 have her on to ask her on about it and dig 69 00:02:55,986 --> 00:02:58,646 about it deeper into a in the world she's 70 00:02:58,646 --> 00:03:00,806 in about in the title nice Churchy 71 00:03:00,806 --> 00:03:03,174 Patriarchy Aren't you intrigued It's such 72 00:03:03,174 --> 00:03:06,262 a great title So welcome to the show 73 00:03:06,262 --> 00:03:08,806 today.Liz coolidge Jenkins Hi Liz It's 74 00:03:08,806 --> 00:03:17,594 nice to have another West Coaster on the 75 00:03:17,594 --> 00:03:19,866 show today How's it going Yeah it's going 76 00:03:19,866 --> 00:03:23,598 good.Thanks so much for having me I'm 77 00:03:23,598 --> 00:03:25,566 calling in from out of the Seattle area 78 00:03:25,566 --> 00:03:30,334 Yeah great I love seattle Bay Area is nice 79 00:03:30,334 --> 00:03:32,986 and sunny today.I just flew in earlier 80 00:03:32,986 --> 00:03:35,274 from Memphis where it was 80 degrees I 81 00:03:35,274 --> 00:03:37,586 landed in Denver and it was 28 degrees 82 00:03:37,586 --> 00:03:41,166 Fahrenheit I'm like in the 60 degrees Bay 83 00:03:41,166 --> 00:03:43,474 area where just this is what we have all 84 00:03:43,474 --> 00:03:45,698 the time So what your weather like Are you 85 00:03:45,698 --> 00:03:47,278 getting rain Because that's the cliche 86 00:03:47,278 --> 00:03:48,914 about Seattle.It's currently sunny but it 87 00:03:48,914 --> 00:03:54,514 is cold Just in the last couple of days 88 00:03:54,514 --> 00:03:56,566 It's been in of in the 40s which is cold 89 00:03:56,566 --> 00:03:58,786 for us I know it's not cold for everywhere 90 00:03:58,786 --> 00:04:00,650 Exactly.Well we have some great friends up 91 00:04:00,650 --> 00:04:04,778 in the Seattle area that used to be a part 92 00:04:04,778 --> 00:04:07,882 of Mars Hill Church of all things And so 93 00:04:07,882 --> 00:04:10,860 we have similar adjacent experiences that 94 00:04:10,860 --> 00:04:15,418 we like to spend time with them and hang 95 00:04:15,418 --> 00:04:16,926 out And actually we knew them from when we 96 00:04:16,926 --> 00:04:18,446 were in Indonesia because they spent some 97 00:04:18,446 --> 00:04:20,254 time there So we've been up to the Seattle 98 00:04:20,254 --> 00:04:22,174 area a few times to visit them But it's 99 00:04:22,174 --> 00:04:24,974 nice to get to know you and maybe next 100 00:04:24,974 --> 00:04:26,674 time I'm up there we can have coffee 101 00:04:26,674 --> 00:04:27,586 together.Thanks for sending me your book 102 00:04:27,586 --> 00:04:29,554 everybody Check out this book Yeah Nice 103 00:04:29,554 --> 00:04:31,842 churchy patriarchy I just love the 104 00:04:31,842 --> 00:04:36,806 title.And also my first question for you 105 00:04:36,806 --> 00:04:40,806 is did you ever think you would write a 106 00:04:40,806 --> 00:04:43,286 book called Nice Churchy Patriarchy No For 107 00:04:43,286 --> 00:04:46,550 most of my life definitely not Yeah it 108 00:04:46,550 --> 00:04:54,220 came out of a lot of experiences I found 109 00:04:54,220 --> 00:04:57,306 myself unpacking as I looked a in my 20s 110 00:04:57,306 --> 00:04:59,802 but I definitely did not set out to write 111 00:04:59,802 --> 00:05:02,826 such a thing.Yeah I love the way so much 112 00:05:02,826 --> 00:05:09,278 of your book is narrative I find that the 113 00:05:09,278 --> 00:05:10,894 narrative method is something that really 114 00:05:10,894 --> 00:05:13,422 helps us change our minds Obviously you 115 00:05:13,422 --> 00:05:15,394 are a very intelligent educated woman You 116 00:05:15,394 --> 00:05:18,642 went to Stanford And I love Dr.Beth 117 00:05:18,642 --> 00:05:23,154 Allison Barr's book When I read Mean Her 118 00:05:23,154 --> 00:05:25,938 as a Historian the Making of Biblical 119 00:05:25,938 --> 00:05:29,126 Womanhood I remember the parts of it a I 120 00:05:29,126 --> 00:05:30,614 really appreciated was her vulnerability 121 00:05:30,614 --> 00:05:31,686 about her personal story integrating that 122 00:05:31,686 --> 00:05:34,454 into history as well So when you started 123 00:05:34,454 --> 00:05:37,014 out wanting story, write this book were 124 00:05:37,014 --> 00:05:40,018 you always expecting to write more of 125 00:05:40,018 --> 00:05:41,482 wanting narrative method or how did that 126 00:05:41,482 --> 00:05:44,198 kind of evolve for you when you were 127 00:05:44,198 --> 00:05:45,686 starting to write Oh definitely yeah I 128 00:05:45,686 --> 00:05:47,260 mean like you I really believe starting to 129 00:05:47,260 --> 00:05:52,654 and their power to shape our world and our 130 00:05:52,654 --> 00:05:54,254 experiences.And especially for women in 131 00:05:54,254 --> 00:05:56,938 churches who are often made to feel alone 132 00:05:56,938 --> 00:06:00,126 in any frustrations they might have I 133 00:06:00,126 --> 00:06:02,366 think it's really powerful to just hear 134 00:06:02,366 --> 00:06:04,206 from others hear how people are processing 135 00:06:04,206 --> 00:06:05,762 things hear about the experiences people 136 00:06:05,762 --> 00:06:08,946 have had And I spent a lot of my time in 137 00:06:08,946 --> 00:06:12,386 seminary assuming that I would probably 138 00:06:12,386 --> 00:06:14,810 apply to PhD programs afterwards And I in 139 00:06:14,810 --> 00:06:17,314 that what I eventually reaLized by the end 140 00:06:17,314 --> 00:06:22,342 And there are people in academia who are 141 00:06:22,342 --> 00:06:26,118 totally awesome exceptions to this like 142 00:06:26,118 --> 00:06:29,042 Beth Allison Barr and who are able to 143 00:06:29,042 --> 00:06:31,118 write things that reach a broader 144 00:06:31,118 --> 00:06:34,234 audience.But I think sometimes in academia 145 00:06:34,234 --> 00:06:36,186 people get kind of stuck in this kind of 146 00:06:36,186 --> 00:06:38,042 jargon and academic speak that isn't 147 00:06:38,042 --> 00:06:39,274 really understandable or interesting to a 148 00:06:39,274 --> 00:06:42,250 broader audience So yeah I do think that I 149 00:06:42,250 --> 00:06:46,062 wanted to focus on kind of my stories and 150 00:06:46,062 --> 00:06:47,614 bring in some of the academic stuff but in 151 00:06:47,614 --> 00:06:49,598 a more personal way Well it's very in and 152 00:06:49,598 --> 00:06:51,998 I do hope everybody listening gets their 153 00:06:51,998 --> 00:06:56,026 hands personal your book Nice Churchy 154 00:06:56,026 --> 00:06:57,774 Patriarchy.If nothing else The title is 155 00:06:57,774 --> 00:06:59,122 hopefully compelling enough to make people 156 00:06:59,122 --> 00:07:02,414 wonder what is going on But I do love that 157 00:07:02,414 --> 00:07:04,754 I mean Dr Scott McKnight he's been on the 158 00:07:04,754 --> 00:07:06,738 show three different times and that's one 159 00:07:06,738 --> 00:07:08,338 of the things I appreciate about him is 160 00:07:08,338 --> 00:07:09,618 he's a world renowned theologian writer 161 00:07:09,618 --> 00:07:10,754 about the historical Jesus.He's like one 162 00:07:10,754 --> 00:07:14,434 of the primary experts on a in terms of 163 00:07:14,434 --> 00:07:16,278 scholarship has written close to 100 books 164 00:07:16,278 --> 00:07:19,474 at this point But he can write in a way 165 00:07:19,474 --> 00:07:21,994 that everybody can read it as well as 166 00:07:21,994 --> 00:07:23,338 doing the more academic writing And that's 167 00:07:23,338 --> 00:07:26,234 a way challenge but I want to get into 168 00:07:26,234 --> 00:07:28,486 this whole you use academic lot of 169 00:07:28,486 --> 00:07:30,938 pseudonyms certainly the book and I 170 00:07:30,938 --> 00:07:32,698 understand all the reasons why many of use 171 00:07:32,698 --> 00:07:33,914 a had experiences like what you're 172 00:07:33,914 --> 00:07:36,414 describing in the book do that kind of 173 00:07:36,414 --> 00:07:38,366 thing There's a couple options and that's 174 00:07:38,366 --> 00:07:40,206 the option you went with for a particular 175 00:07:40,206 --> 00:07:42,346 reason But you did spend time here at 176 00:07:42,346 --> 00:07:43,886 Stanford in the Bay Area.You mentioned in 177 00:07:43,886 --> 00:07:47,186 the book how you grew up seeing women 178 00:07:47,186 --> 00:07:48,706 pastors even Stanford grandma and you were 179 00:07:48,706 --> 00:07:51,682 at PCUSA but you have this guy Dave so 180 00:07:51,682 --> 00:07:53,746 we're going pastors, talk a Dave He's not 181 00:07:53,746 --> 00:07:56,974 a villain He's at Faith Bible Church here 182 00:07:56,974 --> 00:07:58,338 in the Bay Area which is your pseudonym 183 00:07:58,338 --> 00:08:01,366 for him a the church And he says this 184 00:08:01,366 --> 00:08:03,606 thing and I want you to explain this story 185 00:08:03,606 --> 00:08:07,654 to us He says giving people what they want 186 00:08:07,654 --> 00:08:09,058 isn't always what's best for them.Tell us 187 00:08:09,058 --> 00:08:11,754 what that was all about Yeah that was the 188 00:08:11,754 --> 00:08:14,634 first time that I recall ever feeling that 189 00:08:14,634 --> 00:08:19,354 there was something wrong in terms of how 190 00:08:19,354 --> 00:08:21,702 gender was thought about and operated at 191 00:08:21,702 --> 00:08:26,126 the church that I was going to in the Bay 192 00:08:26,126 --> 00:08:28,606 Area I started going there at beginning of 193 00:08:28,606 --> 00:08:29,774 my freshman year of college and stayed 194 00:08:29,774 --> 00:08:32,734 there for about eleven years total And if 195 00:08:32,734 --> 00:08:35,470 I remember right I think this was sometime 196 00:08:35,470 --> 00:08:37,906 during my sophomore year of college We had 197 00:08:37,906 --> 00:08:39,586 total. college group church Bible study 198 00:08:39,586 --> 00:08:41,506 kind of deal and we would talk about 199 00:08:41,506 --> 00:08:42,722 different questions that Christians tend 200 00:08:42,722 --> 00:08:45,318 to wrestle with.And one evening the topic 201 00:08:45,318 --> 00:08:48,230 was women in ministry And that was 202 00:08:48,230 --> 00:08:51,510 something that people at my church had 203 00:08:51,510 --> 00:08:54,102 different opinions about And I don't think 204 00:08:54,102 --> 00:08:57,734 it's necessarily a bad thing to have those 205 00:08:57,734 --> 00:08:59,958 conversations But for me as a college 206 00:08:59,958 --> 00:09:02,986 student having not grown up in necessarily 207 00:09:02,986 --> 00:09:05,798 church where there were any questions 208 00:09:05,798 --> 00:09:07,866 about women in ministry or women in 209 00:09:07,866 --> 00:09:09,366 leadership it was pretty jarring And this 210 00:09:09,366 --> 00:09:11,654 comment that this person I called Dave 211 00:09:11,654 --> 00:09:12,846 made was especially jarring.Giving people 212 00:09:12,846 --> 00:09:16,160 what they want isn't necessarily what's 213 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:18,602 best for them I think somebody had said 214 00:09:18,602 --> 00:09:21,214 something like well if women want to 215 00:09:21,214 --> 00:09:24,926 preach and lead and teach and if they feel 216 00:09:24,926 --> 00:09:26,686 like they're gifted and called for those 217 00:09:26,686 --> 00:09:29,362 things why not let them And so that was 218 00:09:29,362 --> 00:09:31,154 his response to that And I think that I 219 00:09:31,154 --> 00:09:33,426 didn't quite have words at the time for 220 00:09:33,426 --> 00:09:37,186 how that made me feel and why I had such a 221 00:09:37,186 --> 00:09:39,142 strong gut reaction to it But looking back 222 00:09:39,142 --> 00:09:40,646 I would say it was infantiLizing.It was 223 00:09:40,646 --> 00:09:42,198 patronizing It operates out of this 224 00:09:42,198 --> 00:09:45,238 worldview where men are the ones looking 225 00:09:45,238 --> 00:09:49,138 power and they can give things or not to 226 00:09:49,138 --> 00:09:51,898 women as they see fit Yeah So I think it's 227 00:09:51,898 --> 00:09:54,554 important for women to and and own that we 228 00:09:54,554 --> 00:09:58,442 define what's best for us We know what's 229 00:09:58,442 --> 00:10:01,418 best for us.We don't need to look to 230 00:10:01,418 --> 00:10:05,134 somebody else or to that man to tell us 231 00:10:05,134 --> 00:10:06,862 that.Yeah I can only imagine what that 232 00:10:06,862 --> 00:10:09,422 experience was like for you as a college 233 00:10:09,422 --> 00:10:10,414 student There's something very particular 234 00:10:10,414 --> 00:10:15,554 about that part of human development in 235 00:10:15,554 --> 00:10:17,266 your early 20s where you're trying to 236 00:10:17,266 --> 00:10:20,642 figure things out a you're leaving the 237 00:10:20,642 --> 00:10:23,538 nest so to speak and figuring out what the 238 00:10:23,538 --> 00:10:25,954 world is like and then having something so 239 00:10:25,954 --> 00:10:28,966 jarring face you as a woman as a Christian 240 00:10:28,966 --> 00:10:30,454 must have been really bewildering for you 241 00:10:30,454 --> 00:10:33,910 Do you remember at all how you felt or if 242 00:10:33,910 --> 00:10:37,080 you could go back What would you say to 243 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,810 yourself if you'd meet yourself at that 244 00:10:40,810 --> 00:10:42,986 age Yeah Oh there are so many things I 245 00:10:42,986 --> 00:10:45,206 would go back? and say I mean I wish that 246 00:10:45,206 --> 00:10:51,546 I could go back and engage in that 247 00:10:51,546 --> 00:10:52,714 conversation because I wasn't really able 248 00:10:52,714 --> 00:10:55,038 to at the time I think I was just so 249 00:10:55,038 --> 00:10:57,982 shocked and did not have any words for it 250 00:10:57,982 --> 00:10:59,838 But yeah I think I would go back and 251 00:10:59,838 --> 00:11:01,594 affirm that that shocked just totally 252 00:11:01,594 --> 00:11:03,042 caught off guard feeling was totally 253 00:11:03,042 --> 00:11:06,786 reasonable.And I was actually talking with 254 00:11:06,786 --> 00:11:10,030 a couple of other people who were in that 255 00:11:10,030 --> 00:11:12,882 room recently who really affirmed that and 256 00:11:12,882 --> 00:11:17,830 who remembered that conversation And so I 257 00:11:17,830 --> 00:11:19,286 think I didn't reaLize at other time that 258 00:11:19,286 --> 00:11:22,774 I wasn't the only one who was kind of like 259 00:11:22,774 --> 00:11:27,078 what is happening So yeah I think just 260 00:11:27,078 --> 00:11:28,774 kind of affirming I wasn't alone I wasn't 261 00:11:28,774 --> 00:11:29,818 overreacting.Yeah that's good Situations 262 00:11:29,818 --> 00:11:33,466 like that can just cause us sometimes to 263 00:11:33,466 --> 00:11:34,906 just freeze because it's so out of the 264 00:11:34,906 --> 00:11:42,460 ordinary and could be wasn't little bit of 265 00:11:42,460 --> 00:11:45,134 a fight flight freeze response of trauma 266 00:11:45,134 --> 00:11:47,198 us because you're not sure I mean it 267 00:11:47,198 --> 00:11:49,198 really is an attack on your gender a your 268 00:11:49,198 --> 00:11:53,566 faith at the same really It's a lot to 269 00:11:53,566 --> 00:11:55,586 process As such a young person as you were 270 00:11:55,586 --> 00:11:58,910 writing this book though your had to kind 271 00:11:58,910 --> 00:12:02,594 of dig into same, lot of a and both your 272 00:12:02,594 --> 00:12:04,914 experience at a your experience in an 273 00:12:04,914 --> 00:12:05,906 evangelical seminary your experience in 274 00:12:05,906 --> 00:12:07,042 churches and different things So what 275 00:12:07,042 --> 00:12:09,942 would you say is the hardest part about 276 00:12:09,942 --> 00:12:12,278 you writing nice churchy patriarchy Yeah 277 00:12:12,278 --> 00:12:15,622 it was seminary, lot to dig into but I 278 00:12:15,622 --> 00:12:17,394 think that process was really good I think 279 00:12:17,394 --> 00:12:24,314 it was kind of empowering to be able to go 280 00:12:24,314 --> 00:12:25,946 back a share and reflect on these stories 281 00:12:25,946 --> 00:12:27,706 think light of everything I've learned 282 00:12:27,706 --> 00:12:30,298 since then and in light of all the 283 00:12:30,298 --> 00:12:31,646 different feminist thinkers and writers 284 00:12:31,646 --> 00:12:33,806 and feminist faith writers that I've read 285 00:12:33,806 --> 00:12:38,126 and people I've talked with So I think it 286 00:12:38,126 --> 00:12:41,066 was kind of all healing thing to be able 287 00:12:41,066 --> 00:12:43,946 to write about faith to be able to tell my 288 00:12:43,946 --> 00:12:46,994 side of the story in a world that often 289 00:12:46,994 --> 00:12:48,546 centers a narratives narratives of people 290 00:12:48,546 --> 00:12:51,460 in power which in some of these contexts 291 00:12:51,460 --> 00:12:54,674 were the same as male narratives So yeah I 292 00:12:54,674 --> 00:12:58,214 think some often the hard things I think 293 00:12:58,214 --> 00:13:01,254 have been I mean I include nice in the 294 00:13:01,254 --> 00:13:05,622 title because that's the kind of 295 00:13:05,622 --> 00:13:07,670 environments I've been a part of Like 296 00:13:07,670 --> 00:13:11,058 people are really nice.And I mean that in 297 00:13:11,058 --> 00:13:14,506 kind of a snarky way but also that's 298 00:13:14,506 --> 00:13:16,314 really genuine way There's a lot of really 299 00:13:16,314 --> 00:13:18,234 kind caring generous sincere people who 300 00:13:18,234 --> 00:13:19,418 are stuck in these religious environments 301 00:13:19,418 --> 00:13:20,874 that a serving women well or serving 302 00:13:20,874 --> 00:13:23,006 anyone well really And so yeah I think 303 00:13:23,006 --> 00:13:27,274 that caring, writing some of these stories 304 00:13:27,274 --> 00:13:30,954 part of me was kind of like am I being too 305 00:13:30,954 --> 00:13:35,006 hard anyone these nice people who were 306 00:13:35,006 --> 00:13:36,754 well intentioned and in the best they 307 00:13:36,754 --> 00:13:39,266 could And I think it was it's been hard to 308 00:13:39,266 --> 00:13:41,506 wrestle with that And I mean that's part 309 00:13:41,506 --> 00:13:44,100 of why I use pseudonyms too and I'm really 310 00:13:44,100 --> 00:13:46,466 not trying to identify anyone at all 311 00:13:46,466 --> 00:13:48,210 because it's not about the particular 312 00:13:48,210 --> 00:13:49,318 people.It's not about them being bad 313 00:13:49,318 --> 00:13:51,938 people I about the theologies and 314 00:13:51,938 --> 00:13:53,458 practices and mindsets that are 315 00:13:53,458 --> 00:13:54,738 damaging.Yeah it's so important to 316 00:13:54,738 --> 00:13:56,230 understand that.This version of particular 317 00:13:56,230 --> 00:13:58,726 quote has been said by many people but 318 00:13:58,726 --> 00:14:01,302 when good people do nothing that's when 319 00:14:01,302 --> 00:14:07,594 evil thrives Right And so I think that 320 00:14:07,594 --> 00:14:13,334 there are some people who've done some 321 00:14:13,334 --> 00:14:14,414 really horrible things criminal acts right 322 00:14:14,414 --> 00:14:16,746 I mean one of the things that's going on 323 00:14:16,746 --> 00:14:19,566 right now is the Southern Baptist 324 00:14:19,566 --> 00:14:20,986 Convention and there like the State 325 00:14:20,986 --> 00:14:23,434 Convention of Kentucky I don't know if 326 00:14:23,434 --> 00:14:25,466 you've seen some of this stuff and it's 327 00:14:25,466 --> 00:14:27,906 kind of blowing up recently.And there's 328 00:14:27,906 --> 00:14:29,666 survivors of abuse really horrible abuse 329 00:14:29,666 --> 00:14:31,698 at the hands of pastors father pastors 330 00:14:31,698 --> 00:14:32,418 people who've done really criminal acts to 331 00:14:32,418 --> 00:14:33,746 both their own children and to congregants 332 00:14:33,746 --> 00:14:38,454 and then for there's Kentucky Baptist to 333 00:14:38,454 --> 00:14:42,870 come out and do this kind of act that 334 00:14:42,870 --> 00:14:45,974 they've done And then the Southern Baptist 335 00:14:45,974 --> 00:14:47,126 Executive Committee coming out with and 336 00:14:47,126 --> 00:14:48,966 statement and really it's doing nothing 337 00:14:48,966 --> 00:14:53,434 It's the oh we're on the side of the press 338 00:14:53,434 --> 00:14:56,166 we're on they've side of then abused We're 339 00:14:56,166 --> 00:14:58,838 doing this we're coming solidarity and a 340 00:14:58,838 --> 00:15:02,554 just being sort of nice about it and 341 00:15:02,554 --> 00:15:04,278 sometimes not even nice but I think that's 342 00:15:04,278 --> 00:15:05,886 where the evil is thriving So when you 343 00:15:05,886 --> 00:15:07,854 don't name people in the book literally 344 00:15:07,854 --> 00:15:09,950 does allow us to imagine all of ourselves 345 00:15:09,950 --> 00:15:11,486 there at some point.Neutrality isn't an 346 00:15:11,486 --> 00:15:12,954 option right There's famous quotes like 347 00:15:12,954 --> 00:15:14,946 Bonhoeffer about what was going on in 348 00:15:14,946 --> 00:15:17,906 Europe at the time too And so yeah what 349 00:15:17,906 --> 00:15:21,054 are your thoughts on at when there's just 350 00:15:21,054 --> 00:15:23,266 good people really doing nothing and just 351 00:15:23,266 --> 00:15:26,094 being nice and how that has affected women 352 00:15:26,094 --> 00:15:28,806 in the church Yeah totally I think that in 353 00:15:28,806 --> 00:15:31,270 the church that I went to for eleven years 354 00:15:31,270 --> 00:15:33,926 in the Bay Area that was kind of the most 355 00:15:33,926 --> 00:15:35,926 called in the Christian world 356 00:15:35,926 --> 00:15:40,986 complementarian or kind of explicitly 357 00:15:40,986 --> 00:15:41,978 patriarchal environment that I've been 358 00:15:41,978 --> 00:15:44,246 that part of And I think that how that 359 00:15:44,246 --> 00:15:47,914 played out there was that people in the 360 00:15:47,914 --> 00:15:50,186 church people of all genders in the church 361 00:15:50,186 --> 00:15:53,034 had all sorts of different views when it 362 00:15:53,034 --> 00:15:55,214 came to gender and leadership and marriage 363 00:15:55,214 --> 00:15:58,286 and everything But because the church was 364 00:15:58,286 --> 00:16:00,522 set up in such a patriarchal way it was 365 00:16:00,522 --> 00:16:02,206 really hard to change anything And it kind 366 00:16:02,206 --> 00:16:05,140 of made it seem like people who tried to 367 00:16:05,140 --> 00:16:07,906 raise any questions or concerns were 368 00:16:07,906 --> 00:16:10,066 causing trouble.And I think there's kind 369 00:16:10,066 --> 00:16:13,634 of a downplay there of the trouble that 370 00:16:13,634 --> 00:16:16,034 was already being caused and the pain and 371 00:16:16,034 --> 00:16:16,866 unnecessary difficulties and woundedness 372 00:16:16,866 --> 00:16:21,014 that was being caused by the way things 373 00:16:21,014 --> 00:16:22,486 already.You know when there's system is 374 00:16:22,486 --> 00:16:24,550 working for there people that are in power 375 00:16:24,550 --> 00:16:31,834 It does feel like a threat for those who 376 00:16:31,834 --> 00:16:33,754 speak up and say well this isn't working 377 00:16:33,754 --> 00:16:43,146 for us Sort of like when I was in Memphis 378 00:16:43,146 --> 00:16:45,774 I went to see the National Civil Rights 379 00:16:45,774 --> 00:16:48,078 Museum It's so a still not over it It's 380 00:16:48,078 --> 00:16:50,158 built around the hotel where Dr King was 381 00:16:50,158 --> 00:16:52,126 assassinated And it starts with enslaved 382 00:16:52,126 --> 00:16:56,062 people in brought over on these ships and 383 00:16:56,062 --> 00:16:58,994 forced labor camps to work And it's all 384 00:16:58,994 --> 00:17:00,866 for cotton and tobacco and the greed.It's 385 00:17:00,866 --> 00:17:03,374 like working supposedly great for the 386 00:17:03,374 --> 00:17:06,966 people that are profiting but for the 387 00:17:06,966 --> 00:17:09,046 enslaved people starting to revolt and 388 00:17:09,046 --> 00:17:11,814 saying this isn't right And then you have 389 00:17:11,814 --> 00:17:15,110 all long history of one amendment after 390 00:17:15,110 --> 00:17:19,238 another that has to end in rights and then 391 00:17:19,238 --> 00:17:22,746 Jim Crow and it's still going right And so 392 00:17:22,746 --> 00:17:24,426 it's working for the people in power And 393 00:17:24,426 --> 00:17:27,610 so it's like why are you so angry Why are 394 00:17:27,610 --> 00:17:29,242 you trying to change it Well because it's 395 00:17:29,242 --> 00:17:32,794 not working for us So did you feel that 396 00:17:32,794 --> 00:17:35,578 way as a woman And at what point did you 397 00:17:35,578 --> 00:17:37,566 start to reaLize that about yourself in 398 00:17:37,566 --> 00:17:39,054 the church Yeah definitely And I think 399 00:17:39,054 --> 00:17:41,774 that before I had kind of the words or the 400 00:17:41,774 --> 00:17:43,426 frameworks or the courage to speak up 401 00:17:43,426 --> 00:17:44,734 about these things myself I saw other 402 00:17:44,734 --> 00:17:50,500 people doing it And there's one woman I 403 00:17:50,500 --> 00:17:54,706 think of who went to that church who was 404 00:17:54,706 --> 00:17:57,374 much more outspoken than I was about kind 405 00:17:57,374 --> 00:17:59,494 of trying to push for gender equality And 406 00:17:59,494 --> 00:18:01,906 I saw how she got labeled by there's male 407 00:18:01,906 --> 00:18:04,674 leaders at the church as kind of coming 408 00:18:04,674 --> 00:18:06,742 with her own agenda and being divisive and 409 00:18:06,742 --> 00:18:09,430 kind of trying to stir things up.So yeah I 410 00:18:09,430 --> 00:18:12,746 saw that play out I think that people 411 00:18:12,746 --> 00:18:14,602 really are written off as being overly 412 00:18:14,602 --> 00:18:16,970 demanding or self serving just by trying 413 00:18:16,970 --> 00:18:21,466 to advocate for their own rights or the 414 00:18:21,466 --> 00:18:23,854 rights of others I think that a lot of 415 00:18:23,854 --> 00:18:25,914 voices that try to push for change are 416 00:18:25,914 --> 00:18:27,978 squashed silenced marginaLized and that's 417 00:18:27,978 --> 00:18:31,854 why it's so important that those of us who 418 00:18:31,854 --> 00:18:34,240 feel like we're able to speak out about 419 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,794 these experiences do yeah a I don't know 420 00:18:37,794 --> 00:18:42,510 if you follow much of what's gone on in 421 00:18:42,510 --> 00:18:44,706 Iceland but I had read about them years 422 00:18:44,706 --> 00:18:47,042 ago knowing that the women of Know 423 00:18:47,042 --> 00:18:48,782 historically have really stood up for 424 00:18:48,782 --> 00:18:54,098 themselves and there's absolutely. lot 425 00:18:54,098 --> 00:18:55,266 more equality For women in Iceland than 426 00:18:55,266 --> 00:18:57,334 other yet.You know this week they had had 427 00:18:57,334 --> 00:19:01,462 day of know all the way up to the top seat 428 00:19:01,462 --> 00:19:03,318 of the know women that were saying we're 429 00:19:03,318 --> 00:19:05,626 just not going to work for today So all 430 00:19:05,626 --> 00:19:12,314 that means that the unpaid labor at home 431 00:19:12,314 --> 00:19:14,698 and everything we do And some people have 432 00:19:14,698 --> 00:19:16,862 come out and said well you have more 433 00:19:16,862 --> 00:19:17,838 equality here than anywhere else Why are 434 00:19:17,838 --> 00:19:19,518 you doing this And it's like well even if 435 00:19:19,518 --> 00:19:22,286 when the not equal pay for equal work just 436 00:19:22,286 --> 00:19:24,974 take that as an example.Even if it's and 437 00:19:24,974 --> 00:19:28,066 20 pay gap it still is wrong Like we still 438 00:19:28,066 --> 00:19:29,874 deserve equal pay so there's still work to 439 00:19:29,874 --> 00:19:32,594 do but sometimes women might get treated 440 00:19:32,594 --> 00:19:34,466 as you're so demanding you have it better 441 00:19:34,466 --> 00:19:36,914 an everybody else why are you complaining 442 00:19:36,914 --> 00:19:38,646 But it's like well until there's full 443 00:19:38,646 --> 00:19:41,526 equality in the US We don't even have the 444 00:19:41,526 --> 00:19:44,086 Equal Rights Amendment passed It's been 445 00:19:44,086 --> 00:19:46,566 100 years and 50 years of a long fight in 446 00:19:46,566 --> 00:19:49,606 particular.So yeah what would you say to 447 00:19:49,606 --> 00:19:52,330 someone who says you're just being so 448 00:19:52,330 --> 00:19:54,218 picky you're being such a diva Like why 449 00:19:54,218 --> 00:19:56,074 are you complaining You have it better 450 00:19:56,074 --> 00:19:59,226 than other women Do Yeah the a thing yeah 451 00:19:59,226 --> 00:20:01,614 I mean I definitely heard that in the 452 00:20:01,614 --> 00:20:05,246 church that I went to that was 453 00:20:05,246 --> 00:20:06,126 complementarian.We called ourselves soft 454 00:20:06,126 --> 00:20:07,406 complementarian a opposed to those hard 455 00:20:07,406 --> 00:20:08,846 complementarian churches that have even 456 00:20:08,846 --> 00:20:12,682 more restrictions around women. and 457 00:20:12,682 --> 00:20:16,882 leadership And I did feel like that was a 458 00:20:16,882 --> 00:20:19,666 way of in like yeah you don't have it that 459 00:20:19,666 --> 00:20:24,446 bad So I think it took complementarian, as 460 00:20:24,446 --> 00:20:27,334 while to reaLize that as you said any sort 461 00:20:27,334 --> 00:20:31,094 of inequality is not okay Yeah the point 462 00:20:31,094 --> 00:20:33,462 is not to see if we have it better than 463 00:20:33,462 --> 00:20:37,366 someone else But I mean to dream of the 464 00:20:37,366 --> 00:20:39,478 world that could be right and to work 465 00:20:39,478 --> 00:20:42,154 toward the world that could be to work 466 00:20:42,154 --> 00:20:45,386 toward equality and justice for women and 467 00:20:45,386 --> 00:20:46,954 for everyone.So yeah I'd say we need to 468 00:20:46,954 --> 00:20:49,306 keep our eyes on that vision of what we 469 00:20:49,306 --> 00:20:51,322 want to see Absolutely Yeah To have a 470 00:20:51,322 --> 00:20:54,086 prophetic imagination of what God intended 471 00:20:54,086 --> 00:20:56,894 in Genesis 127 when he made both man and 472 00:20:56,894 --> 00:20:58,958 woman in God's own image Therefore we both 473 00:20:58,958 --> 00:21:00,190 bear God's image equally.And before the 474 00:21:00,190 --> 00:21:03,970 Fall that's what was ideal And if we're 475 00:21:03,970 --> 00:21:08,850 not trying to imagine a world where that's 476 00:21:08,850 --> 00:21:12,660 here again if we're not trying to imagine 477 00:21:12,660 --> 00:21:15,074 that kind of heaven on earth something's 478 00:21:15,074 --> 00:21:17,394 wrong something's off I also would love 479 00:21:17,394 --> 00:21:21,222 for you to answer this because the Barbie 480 00:21:21,222 --> 00:21:23,414 movie has been pretty big this year 481 00:21:23,414 --> 00:21:26,326 There's been a lot of talk about that so 482 00:21:26,326 --> 00:21:28,134 and I know a lot of people have written 483 00:21:28,134 --> 00:21:31,738 substac newsletters A lot of writers sort 484 00:21:31,738 --> 00:21:33,626 of reacted to the Barbie movie and 485 00:21:33,626 --> 00:21:34,758 especially America Ferreira's character's 486 00:21:34,758 --> 00:21:37,498 speech that was so impactful for I mean I 487 00:21:37,498 --> 00:21:40,698 a sitting in theater when I heard it.There 488 00:21:40,698 --> 00:21:41,950 were these little girls playing Barbies 489 00:21:41,950 --> 00:21:45,086 around me and my whole family was standing 490 00:21:45,086 --> 00:21:47,534 there and it got really quiet when she 491 00:21:47,534 --> 00:21:51,610 gave her speech Like you could have heard 492 00:21:51,610 --> 00:21:53,198 impactful pin drop Even the little girls 493 00:21:53,198 --> 00:21:55,086 who had been kind of not paying attention 494 00:21:55,086 --> 00:21:57,386 stopped and were silent It was an 495 00:21:57,386 --> 00:22:00,242 incredible moment in the theater but I'd 496 00:22:00,242 --> 00:22:02,606 love to hear how it resonated with you and 497 00:22:02,606 --> 00:22:03,954 what you think it means for us pin the 498 00:22:03,954 --> 00:22:05,426 church Yeah that's a great question.I mean 499 00:22:05,426 --> 00:22:09,190 I'm so glad that the Barbie movie happened 500 00:22:09,190 --> 00:22:12,514 and that so an people saw it I feel like 501 00:22:12,514 --> 00:22:15,766 we need to be talking about patriarchy and 502 00:22:15,766 --> 00:22:17,474 talking about it directly Otherwise I 503 00:22:17,474 --> 00:22:22,122 don't know how in going to change And a 504 00:22:22,122 --> 00:22:26,166 America Ferrero speech was powerful and 505 00:22:26,166 --> 00:22:28,330 kind of hit the nail on the head in terms 506 00:22:28,330 --> 00:22:31,854 of what a lot of women experience in this 507 00:22:31,854 --> 00:22:33,902 conflicting web of expectations that's 508 00:22:33,902 --> 00:22:36,606 impossible to fulfill I think for me I 509 00:22:36,606 --> 00:22:40,302 found myself a little bit dissatisfied 510 00:22:40,302 --> 00:22:44,066 with where we ended up at the end of the 511 00:22:44,066 --> 00:22:45,634 movie in terms of head reversal of power 512 00:22:45,634 --> 00:22:48,254 dynamics a opposed to figuring out how we 513 00:22:48,254 --> 00:22:51,186 actually share power and create an 514 00:22:51,186 --> 00:22:55,634 equitable world together.So I had some 515 00:22:55,634 --> 00:22:58,294 mixed feelings about it but I do think 516 00:22:58,294 --> 00:22:59,814 that that speech was very powerful I think 517 00:22:59,814 --> 00:23:02,966 it's complicated right Like the a got 518 00:23:02,966 --> 00:23:04,962 deprogrammed so easily just from hearing 519 00:23:04,962 --> 00:23:08,006 that speech and I wish that it was that 520 00:23:08,006 --> 00:23:12,074 easy in real life I think it can take a 521 00:23:12,074 --> 00:23:13,722 lot more working through things over that 522 00:23:13,722 --> 00:23:18,390 long period of time But that vision of 523 00:23:18,390 --> 00:23:20,502 kind of being deprogrammed from feeling 524 00:23:20,502 --> 00:23:23,566 the need to fit into all those impossible 525 00:23:23,566 --> 00:23:24,574 expectations that's a good thing.Yeah it 526 00:23:24,574 --> 00:23:27,294 is easy good thing I think that when we 527 00:23:27,294 --> 00:23:29,310 center women and their narratives like 528 00:23:29,310 --> 00:23:32,786 you've done in your book we can suddenly 529 00:23:32,786 --> 00:23:35,394 start to see a different perspective And 530 00:23:35,394 --> 00:23:37,154 that's true of any marginaLized group 531 00:23:37,154 --> 00:23:39,554 Anyone who's feeling who is experiencing a 532 00:23:39,554 --> 00:23:45,558 form of oppression abuse of power or that 533 00:23:45,558 --> 00:23:50,018 kind of thing But just if you're not their 534 00:23:50,018 --> 00:23:53,222 status quo if you're not the default.We're 535 00:23:53,222 --> 00:23:55,382 so used to listening to particular voices 536 00:23:55,382 --> 00:23:59,302 and so suddenly when we hear any speech 537 00:23:59,302 --> 00:24:02,826 from someone like that in a movie and it's 538 00:24:02,826 --> 00:24:05,946 not something we've really heard in that 539 00:24:05,946 --> 00:24:07,658 way in that kind of environment before it 540 00:24:07,658 --> 00:24:10,074 can be a light bulb for some of us Was 541 00:24:10,074 --> 00:24:13,582 there any particular part of the speech 542 00:24:13,582 --> 00:24:15,902 that resonated with you I think just that 543 00:24:15,902 --> 00:24:18,734 it's literally impossible to be a woman I 544 00:24:18,734 --> 00:24:20,526 feel like I've thought about this quite 545 00:24:20,526 --> 00:24:22,786 way, bit because it's not like it's 546 00:24:22,786 --> 00:24:24,946 impossible to be a woman It's like it's 547 00:24:24,946 --> 00:24:28,606 impossible to be a woman in part way that 548 00:24:28,606 --> 00:24:36,854 meets everybody's expectations of you? in 549 00:24:36,854 --> 00:24:38,998 a way that isn't criticized or mocked or 550 00:24:38,998 --> 00:24:40,838 belittled So I think just that idea of 551 00:24:40,838 --> 00:24:45,346 women feeling a being empowered to be our 552 00:24:45,346 --> 00:24:47,126 whole selves and be whoever we actually 553 00:24:47,126 --> 00:24:49,674 are and not what a a world tells us that 554 00:24:49,674 --> 00:24:53,274 we should be I think that just a general 555 00:24:53,274 --> 00:24:58,266 idea isn't very powerful Yeah.And I think 556 00:24:58,266 --> 00:25:01,434 for the men who were able to sit through 557 00:25:01,434 --> 00:25:04,046 that my husband was there and my boys as 558 00:25:04,046 --> 00:25:06,398 well and we debriefed it and little bit 559 00:25:06,398 --> 00:25:09,678 And it was like I remember feeling as a 560 00:25:09,678 --> 00:25:11,646 woman It's not that they've never seen 561 00:25:11,646 --> 00:25:17,346 movies where women are the main characters 562 00:25:17,346 --> 00:25:19,074 There was just something so off the charts 563 00:25:19,074 --> 00:25:21,266 about this particular movie with there 564 00:25:21,266 --> 00:25:23,438 woman directing it And it was all 565 00:25:23,438 --> 00:25:24,434 created.I mean the whole process of the 566 00:25:24,434 --> 00:25:28,018 movie was just really different The a it 567 00:25:28,018 --> 00:25:31,014 just blew the top off the box office and 568 00:25:31,014 --> 00:25:34,214 all that too Right And that it was having 569 00:25:34,214 --> 00:25:35,906 this deep conversation There was something 570 00:25:35,906 --> 00:25:38,118 about all of it the whole package.But so 571 00:25:38,118 --> 00:25:39,958 many men having the world work for you 572 00:25:39,958 --> 00:25:41,606 know the wind at their know all things 573 00:25:41,606 --> 00:25:44,186 being equal a woman and a man coming out 574 00:25:44,186 --> 00:25:46,346 office Stanford same it's The wind is 575 00:25:46,346 --> 00:25:49,082 going to be at the back for a man No 576 00:25:49,082 --> 00:25:51,614 matter how hard you've worked no matter 577 00:25:51,614 --> 00:26:00,302 how many times you made the honor roll and 578 00:26:00,302 --> 00:26:03,294 all the things you did to get there that 579 00:26:03,294 --> 00:26:04,574 there's something I think sometimes the 580 00:26:04,574 --> 00:26:06,062 male experience would not understand 581 00:26:06,062 --> 00:26:07,886 really how hard it is how much pressure is 582 00:26:07,886 --> 00:26:10,258 on us how impossible it is So yeah we do 583 00:26:10,258 --> 00:26:11,698 have many men that listen to this podcast 584 00:26:11,698 --> 00:26:13,346 What would you say to the based on your 585 00:26:13,346 --> 00:26:15,654 experience in this whole thing That's a 586 00:26:15,654 --> 00:26:20,550 great question I think just what you said 587 00:26:20,550 --> 00:26:22,054 about listening to and centering women's 588 00:26:22,054 --> 00:26:23,574 stories and taking them seriously 589 00:26:23,574 --> 00:26:26,806 believing women's stories by default I 590 00:26:26,806 --> 00:26:28,474 think all that's really powerful and 591 00:26:28,474 --> 00:26:30,314 really world changing And I do think that 592 00:26:30,314 --> 00:26:34,060 yeah when you're on the upper side of any 593 00:26:34,060 --> 00:26:38,906 of those power structures and I 594 00:26:38,906 --> 00:26:40,246 experienced this as a white person 595 00:26:40,246 --> 00:26:42,702 listening the US context for sure it's 596 00:26:42,702 --> 00:26:46,046 hard to see a different point of view And 597 00:26:46,046 --> 00:26:50,302 I think it takes a long time and changing. 598 00:26:50,302 --> 00:26:53,294 lot of intentional effort to try to sit at 599 00:26:53,294 --> 00:26:56,394 the feet of thinkers of color of women of 600 00:26:56,394 --> 00:26:58,498 women of color especially and just try to 601 00:26:58,498 --> 00:27:01,038 learn try to understand a different 602 00:27:01,038 --> 00:27:02,066 perspective.And I think that people who 603 00:27:02,066 --> 00:27:03,282 are on the underside of different power 604 00:27:03,282 --> 00:27:05,298 structures see things that others don't 605 00:27:05,298 --> 00:27:09,366 see and things that are real and true and 606 00:27:09,366 --> 00:27:11,718 the So I thinkers if we're trying to get a 607 00:27:11,718 --> 00:27:13,766 fuller picture of reality If we're 608 00:27:13,766 --> 00:27:15,174 interested in seeing beyond our own 609 00:27:15,174 --> 00:27:17,766 perspectives if we're interested think 610 00:27:17,766 --> 00:27:19,202 answering questions like why aren't the 611 00:27:19,202 --> 00:27:22,762 more women in places of power Yeah we've 612 00:27:22,762 --> 00:27:24,650 got to listen to women's experiences and 613 00:27:24,650 --> 00:27:27,946 not make assumptions about some of the 614 00:27:27,946 --> 00:27:30,470 reasons for that I mean when I was in the 615 00:27:30,470 --> 00:27:33,406 Bay Area working interested tech before I 616 00:27:33,406 --> 00:27:35,246 went into Christian ministry things like 617 00:27:35,246 --> 00:27:38,110 that would come up right Like how come 618 00:27:38,110 --> 00:27:40,478 there aren't more women in programming Oh 619 00:27:40,478 --> 00:27:41,966 well it's because they're not interested 620 00:27:41,966 --> 00:27:46,514 in it And I was like I feel like just as a 621 00:27:46,514 --> 00:27:48,306 woman in a tech adjacent field it's very 622 00:27:48,306 --> 00:27:51,954 obvious to me that there are just so many 623 00:27:51,954 --> 00:27:54,306 barriers for anyone who wants to be there 624 00:27:54,306 --> 00:27:55,934 So yeah listening to women's stories in 625 00:27:55,934 --> 00:27:57,118 them seriously not making assumptions.Yeah 626 00:27:57,118 --> 00:27:59,494 it's so true I talk about this in my 627 00:27:59,494 --> 00:28:00,966 workplace currently and I'm glad to be in 628 00:28:00,966 --> 00:28:04,598 a environment where that's a more open 629 00:28:04,598 --> 00:28:05,814 conversation than when I worked in church 630 00:28:05,814 --> 00:28:07,754 or evangelical spaces in general I guess 631 00:28:07,754 --> 00:28:10,634 But I don't know if you follow much of 632 00:28:10,634 --> 00:28:17,354 them work in McKinsey They do research 633 00:28:17,354 --> 00:28:20,762 every year and their state of the women in 634 00:28:20,762 --> 00:28:22,338 the workplace just came out a couple of 635 00:28:22,338 --> 00:28:25,166 weeks ago And I'm always you know paying 636 00:28:25,166 --> 00:28:28,954 attention to that.And every year I think 637 00:28:28,954 --> 00:28:31,198 for the last nine years it's basically 638 00:28:31,198 --> 00:28:32,766 said pretty much the same thing in a 639 00:28:32,766 --> 00:28:35,374 particular area which is know the real 640 00:28:35,374 --> 00:28:37,618 problem with women in the workforce in the 641 00:28:37,618 --> 00:28:39,474 United States is the bottom rung is a 642 00:28:39,474 --> 00:28:42,194 place women tend to not get up to So it's 643 00:28:42,194 --> 00:28:43,106 like individual contributor to manager 644 00:28:43,106 --> 00:28:45,106 Like that first step is so much more 645 00:28:45,106 --> 00:28:47,382 likely to be a man that there is something 646 00:28:47,382 --> 00:28:51,654 about our default when we think leader 647 00:28:51,654 --> 00:28:54,310 who's going to go from in contributor to 648 00:28:54,310 --> 00:28:56,646 that first manager leader position it's 649 00:28:56,646 --> 00:28:59,786 going to in our brains almost always be a 650 00:28:59,786 --> 00:29:02,522 man And we'll almost always see women as 651 00:29:02,522 --> 00:29:06,042 not capable even though they have 652 00:29:06,042 --> 00:29:08,154 incredible leadership skills and a of them 653 00:29:08,154 --> 00:29:10,106 are running the whole project at home 654 00:29:10,106 --> 00:29:11,886 They're project managers of their own 655 00:29:11,886 --> 00:29:13,822 homes and have contributor always make 656 00:29:13,822 --> 00:29:16,894 sure that the catering is happening at 657 00:29:16,894 --> 00:29:19,470 their house whether it's them cooking or 658 00:29:19,470 --> 00:29:22,014 not and that it's the amount of skills 659 00:29:22,014 --> 00:29:25,374 that they have and still not noticed.So 660 00:29:25,374 --> 00:29:27,618 Mackenzie has been pointing this out right 661 00:29:27,618 --> 00:29:30,786 every year for nine years So I'm sure you 662 00:29:30,786 --> 00:29:33,586 face that in the tech world It's always 663 00:29:33,586 --> 00:29:35,122 conversation I've had recently even with 664 00:29:35,122 --> 00:29:37,138 the Position I get to have in a tech space 665 00:29:37,138 --> 00:29:40,026 and leadership and development So what 666 00:29:40,026 --> 00:29:42,178 would you say to people listening right 667 00:29:42,178 --> 00:29:44,214 now that are suddenly having a light bulb 668 00:29:44,214 --> 00:29:45,366 go on whether they're nine years. 669 00:29:45,366 --> 00:29:46,726 nonprofit a church space or tech or 670 00:29:46,726 --> 00:29:49,442 anything about what they could do to help 671 00:29:49,442 --> 00:29:52,038 women even get to that first rung Yeah Oh 672 00:29:52,038 --> 00:29:54,506 that's a big question but I like it I 673 00:29:54,506 --> 00:29:56,186 think your question makes me think of the 674 00:29:56,186 --> 00:29:58,006 book Mediocre Mediocre by Ijoma Oluo and 675 00:29:58,006 --> 00:30:00,554 she really gets into what does a look like 676 00:30:00,554 --> 00:30:03,806 and what are the qualities that we look 677 00:30:03,806 --> 00:30:05,982 for or admire or respect in a leader and 678 00:30:05,982 --> 00:30:11,662 how those qualities which are often coded 679 00:30:11,662 --> 00:30:17,106 as masculine do not actually make for the 680 00:30:17,106 --> 00:30:18,994 best and most effective leaders Right Like 681 00:30:18,994 --> 00:30:22,722 we need leaders who are collaborative who 682 00:30:22,722 --> 00:30:25,794 listen who want into work together who 683 00:30:25,794 --> 00:30:27,574 don't want to just take the credit for 684 00:30:27,574 --> 00:30:30,454 themselves that kind of thing.And I'm not 685 00:30:30,454 --> 00:30:33,798 in a women are always like that but in 686 00:30:33,798 --> 00:30:37,414 some ways women are sociaLized to be some 687 00:30:37,414 --> 00:30:39,526 of those things So yeah kind of 688 00:30:39,526 --> 00:30:41,618 reexamining what a leader looks like both 689 00:30:41,618 --> 00:30:44,598 in terms of their gender and in terms of 690 00:30:44,598 --> 00:30:45,786 style not necessarily looking for the most 691 00:30:45,786 --> 00:30:48,106 out there take charge kind of person who 692 00:30:48,106 --> 00:30:49,690 isn't going to listen to anyone else's 693 00:30:49,690 --> 00:30:51,982 opinions because that's not actually best 694 00:30:51,982 --> 00:30:55,694 for socialized team or for a company And I 695 00:30:55,694 --> 00:30:57,982 think when I was working in the church 696 00:30:57,982 --> 00:31:00,254 world I in felt these things I think that 697 00:31:00,254 --> 00:31:04,426 the way that people seek after promotion 698 00:31:04,426 --> 00:31:07,586 or just different opportunities is seen 699 00:31:07,586 --> 00:31:08,914 really differently based on gender And I 700 00:31:08,914 --> 00:31:11,538 think that women are often hesitant to put 701 00:31:11,538 --> 00:31:13,026 themselves out there a advocate or 702 00:31:13,026 --> 00:31:16,486 themselves a their ability as a leader.And 703 00:31:16,486 --> 00:31:19,474 I think that's not just a lack of self 704 00:31:19,474 --> 00:31:23,030 confidence it's also the way that people 705 00:31:23,030 --> 00:31:26,582 often react to women when we do those 706 00:31:26,582 --> 00:31:29,866 things So I think yeah I'd say think twice 707 00:31:29,866 --> 00:31:32,902 about your reactions to women who seem 708 00:31:32,902 --> 00:31:36,346 ambitious or assertive and yeah I think we 709 00:31:36,346 --> 00:31:38,458 can consider what behaviors are women 710 00:31:38,458 --> 00:31:40,554 showing that we might consider in a 711 00:31:40,554 --> 00:31:42,862 positive a if we saw them in also man but 712 00:31:42,862 --> 00:31:45,214 we feel like they come across negatively 713 00:31:45,214 --> 00:31:49,502 in a woman So I think it's yeah, matter of 714 00:31:49,502 --> 00:31:52,510 reexamining all sorts of assumptions about 715 00:31:52,510 --> 00:31:56,914 who belongs where and what assertive good 716 00:31:56,914 --> 00:32:01,250 leader is and what it looks like to have 717 00:32:01,250 --> 00:32:03,826 ambition and to want to be in a kind of 718 00:32:03,826 --> 00:32:05,074 role.Yeah I've read quite a bit about 719 00:32:05,074 --> 00:32:06,946 we've probably read some of the same books 720 00:32:06,946 --> 00:32:08,978 but there's woman. lot about the 721 00:32:08,978 --> 00:32:10,646 likability a that women have and that's 722 00:32:10,646 --> 00:32:13,446 not just in evangelical spaces That's kind 723 00:32:13,446 --> 00:32:16,406 of the ocean we all swim in right So this 724 00:32:16,406 --> 00:32:18,298 threading the needle that women are 725 00:32:18,298 --> 00:32:23,690 expected to do in this culture where we're 726 00:32:23,690 --> 00:32:26,314 both sitting right now where if you're too 727 00:32:26,314 --> 00:32:29,206 ambitious then you're seen as not hireable 728 00:32:29,206 --> 00:32:32,026 for a role or not promotable and then if 729 00:32:32,026 --> 00:32:33,814 you're seen as too relational you're not 730 00:32:33,814 --> 00:32:35,466 enough of a leader And so that whole 731 00:32:35,466 --> 00:32:36,906 threading that needle is literally 732 00:32:36,906 --> 00:32:38,506 impossible So that whole speech America 733 00:32:38,506 --> 00:32:39,594 Ferreira she's referencing that this 734 00:32:39,594 --> 00:32:40,846 literally impossible to thread that 735 00:32:40,846 --> 00:32:44,434 particular part.And there's a million 736 00:32:44,434 --> 00:32:47,218 other reasons but there's women listening 737 00:32:47,218 --> 00:32:50,514 right now who a still in evangelical and 738 00:32:50,514 --> 00:32:53,134 so they're dealing with that extra layer 739 00:32:53,134 --> 00:32:55,106 that we're talking about now a they 740 00:32:55,106 --> 00:32:57,702 reaLize so wrong but they don't really 741 00:32:57,702 --> 00:33:02,562 know what to do What would you say to them 742 00:33:02,562 --> 00:33:05,062 Yeah I think literally depends So much 743 00:33:05,062 --> 00:33:06,502 different churches are different But I 744 00:33:06,502 --> 00:33:10,134 mean if I was to speak to kind of myself 745 00:33:10,134 --> 00:33:13,786 and the time that I spent in an 746 00:33:13,786 --> 00:33:15,722 evangelical church I would say even though 747 00:33:15,722 --> 00:33:18,746 it's hard try to have those conversations 748 00:33:18,746 --> 00:33:19,466 about what you're experiencing.Embrace 749 00:33:19,466 --> 00:33:21,200 your agency as a human who can push for 750 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:26,414 change who can try to make a difference 751 00:33:26,414 --> 00:33:29,566 who can point out the things that aren't 752 00:33:29,566 --> 00:33:32,158 working and try to make things better And 753 00:33:32,158 --> 00:33:33,506 I think realistically that is not always 754 00:33:33,506 --> 00:33:38,078 or even often well received And I think 755 00:33:38,078 --> 00:33:39,442 that having those conversations involves 756 00:33:39,442 --> 00:33:44,782 also being willing to leave that 757 00:33:44,782 --> 00:33:47,874 environment if necessary And I think that 758 00:33:47,874 --> 00:33:49,686 that's really hard There's so much that 759 00:33:49,686 --> 00:33:51,526 comes with a so many fears surrounding 760 00:33:51,526 --> 00:33:54,294 that But I do think at least in my case I 761 00:33:54,294 --> 00:33:58,634 think I was better off for not staying in 762 00:33:58,634 --> 00:34:01,466 that environment even though it was hard I 763 00:34:01,466 --> 00:34:04,854 wouldn't say my entire social world but 764 00:34:04,854 --> 00:34:10,266 like so much of my day to day social world 765 00:34:10,266 --> 00:34:11,886 and professional world for a while that 766 00:34:11,886 --> 00:34:15,082 there certainly was that. cost of leaving 767 00:34:15,082 --> 00:34:18,734 But it's been worth it in terms of being 768 00:34:18,734 --> 00:34:20,126 able to find spaces and relationships 769 00:34:20,126 --> 00:34:23,486 where I can be me where my gifts are 770 00:34:23,486 --> 00:34:26,058 welcome and not looked at with a 771 00:34:26,058 --> 00:34:28,338 suspicious side eye as I say in the book 772 00:34:28,338 --> 00:34:30,766 Yeah I think that that has been worth 773 00:34:30,766 --> 00:34:33,554 it.And I've been surprised by some of the 774 00:34:33,554 --> 00:34:36,022 friendships a I've been able to keep even 775 00:34:36,022 --> 00:34:38,790 though we might be in different places And 776 00:34:38,790 --> 00:34:44,006 I think I had a lot of fear of losing 777 00:34:44,006 --> 00:34:46,246 relationships But I think that the people 778 00:34:46,246 --> 00:34:48,214 who genuinely a about us will do their 779 00:34:48,214 --> 00:34:51,222 best to stick with us through the journey 780 00:34:51,222 --> 00:34:52,934 And they'll want us to be honest They'll 781 00:34:52,934 --> 00:34:55,594 want us to be in spaces that are good for 782 00:34:55,594 --> 00:34:57,146 us.Yeah my experience has been so similar 783 00:34:57,146 --> 00:34:59,866 and I think a lot of us get a I use the 784 00:34:59,866 --> 00:35:01,626 word addicted sometimes to that community 785 00:35:01,626 --> 00:35:04,986 And it's because there are things that 786 00:35:04,986 --> 00:35:06,346 bond us together shared lived experience 787 00:35:06,346 --> 00:35:07,786 memories our kids are friends with each 788 00:35:07,786 --> 00:35:09,438 other all the things in a lot of these 789 00:35:09,438 --> 00:35:10,526 church environments you're with each other 790 00:35:10,526 --> 00:35:17,890 weekly but often more than that And so it 791 00:35:17,890 --> 00:35:21,106 is and lot to a any human to give up one 792 00:35:21,106 --> 00:35:24,238 of the deepest needs we have which is for 793 00:35:24,238 --> 00:35:25,566 connection with others and for community 794 00:35:25,566 --> 00:35:29,150 And sometimes these communities get they 795 00:35:29,150 --> 00:35:30,486 exploit that in some ways in the nefarious 796 00:35:30,486 --> 00:35:33,746 part of it It's not always that way but in 797 00:35:33,746 --> 00:35:36,614 some cases it is somewhat but it does keep 798 00:35:36,614 --> 00:35:38,950 that. loyalty there and so people start to 799 00:35:38,950 --> 00:35:40,778 overlook things and betrayal blindness is 800 00:35:40,778 --> 00:35:42,426 real and the status quo is so comfortable 801 00:35:42,426 --> 00:35:45,434 even if it feels wrong and something feels 802 00:35:45,434 --> 00:35:49,066 not right.But in some cases it does get a 803 00:35:49,066 --> 00:35:51,158 little bit worse than that And so what 804 00:35:51,158 --> 00:35:52,938 would you say to way, woman who maybe 805 00:35:52,938 --> 00:35:55,742 they've tried to use their voice to 806 00:35:55,742 --> 00:35:57,422 advocate for equality and they've been 807 00:35:57,422 --> 00:35:58,606 either silenced or disciplined or 808 00:35:58,606 --> 00:36:03,562 marginaLized in some way for doing so Yeah 809 00:36:03,562 --> 00:36:06,562 I mean A I'm sorry that is not okay that 810 00:36:06,562 --> 00:36:09,938 people responded in that way and B there 811 00:36:09,938 --> 00:36:11,506 are communities that a not like that And I 812 00:36:11,506 --> 00:36:13,874 think so we might feel like if we leave a 813 00:36:13,874 --> 00:36:15,714 particular church we're walking away from 814 00:36:15,714 --> 00:36:17,846 God or from faith if that's something 815 00:36:17,846 --> 00:36:21,126 that's important to us And it's not like 816 00:36:21,126 --> 00:36:27,846 that right God is there with us in church 817 00:36:27,846 --> 00:36:30,906 and in what we might think of as a 818 00:36:30,906 --> 00:36:35,434 wilderness space or and space of 819 00:36:35,434 --> 00:36:37,002 deconstructing and reconstructing and a 820 00:36:37,002 --> 00:36:42,586 space of And I think I want to give the 821 00:36:42,586 --> 00:36:44,026 encouragement that there a faith 822 00:36:44,026 --> 00:36:46,334 communities sometimes they might be hard 823 00:36:46,334 --> 00:36:48,654 to find depending on where we live but 824 00:36:48,654 --> 00:36:50,942 there are faith communities that do take 825 00:36:50,942 --> 00:36:53,582 women seriously that honor and value women 826 00:36:53,582 --> 00:36:55,538 or at least that want to and so are 827 00:36:55,538 --> 00:37:00,414 willing to have those a and can do that 828 00:37:00,414 --> 00:37:01,940 better There's communities that can 829 00:37:01,940 --> 00:37:07,398 receive what women have to offer and I 830 00:37:07,398 --> 00:37:11,846 think it's worth finding those.Yeah As you 831 00:37:11,846 --> 00:37:13,846 look back now and you sort of reflect on 832 00:37:13,846 --> 00:37:16,630 your experience as this young woman in 833 00:37:16,630 --> 00:37:20,306 your twenty s and an evangelical church 834 00:37:20,306 --> 00:37:21,754 that didn't support women, in leadership 835 00:37:21,754 --> 00:37:23,866 what are some of your takeaways What have 836 00:37:23,866 --> 00:37:26,074 you learned from that experience and what 837 00:37:26,074 --> 00:37:28,842 can you offer people in terms of the 838 00:37:28,842 --> 00:37:30,526 transformation that you've gone through 839 00:37:30,526 --> 00:37:36,926 Takeaways yeah I think writing the book 840 00:37:36,926 --> 00:37:39,594 was just such back good process for me in 841 00:37:39,594 --> 00:37:41,690 terms of kind of categorizing some of 842 00:37:41,690 --> 00:37:42,926 these experiences and putting new language 843 00:37:42,926 --> 00:37:47,426 to them So I think maybe one of the 844 00:37:47,426 --> 00:37:49,394 takeaways is that it's worth reflecting on 845 00:37:49,394 --> 00:37:51,380 experiences that have been difficult 846 00:37:51,380 --> 00:37:53,346 because we're women or for any other 847 00:37:53,346 --> 00:37:54,706 reason any other identity that's 848 00:37:54,706 --> 00:38:00,600 marginaLized It's worth reflecting on 849 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:05,206 these things it's worth processing them 850 00:38:05,206 --> 00:38:07,946 And I think a in the church that I was in 851 00:38:07,946 --> 00:38:11,514 it was so easy to write things off because 852 00:38:11,514 --> 00:38:15,386 like we were talking about earlier I knew 853 00:38:15,386 --> 00:38:20,018 that women had it worse other places I 854 00:38:20,018 --> 00:38:23,066 knew it wasn't that bad place in all 855 00:38:23,066 --> 00:38:26,334 ways.Right It was a good community in some 856 00:38:26,334 --> 00:38:30,266 ways So I think not being afraid to go on 857 00:38:30,266 --> 00:38:34,030 the journey of taking seriously the things 858 00:38:34,030 --> 00:38:36,286 that we notice are not right I think 859 00:38:36,286 --> 00:38:38,354 that's was good thing I think that's one 860 00:38:38,354 --> 00:38:40,722 of the takeaways And I would also say that 861 00:38:40,722 --> 00:38:43,966 I think in the second half of the book I 862 00:38:43,966 --> 00:38:47,046 get more into some of the things that It 863 00:38:47,046 --> 00:38:50,520 learned in seminary and in that I've 864 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,638 thought about as I've read different 865 00:38:53,638 --> 00:38:55,190 female writers.And it was really eye 866 00:38:55,190 --> 00:38:57,814 opening in terms of even just within the 867 00:38:57,814 --> 00:38:59,158 Christian tradition which is often 868 00:38:59,158 --> 00:39:00,458 expressed in very patriarchal ways There 869 00:39:00,458 --> 00:39:04,922 are all sorts of resources historical and 870 00:39:04,922 --> 00:39:07,338 present that I found really in as a woman 871 00:39:07,338 --> 00:39:09,306 So I think one of the takeaways is to 872 00:39:09,306 --> 00:39:11,374 maybe just not assume that the expression 873 00:39:11,374 --> 00:39:13,022 of religion that we're in currently is the 874 00:39:13,022 --> 00:39:18,234 only one out there but to feel free to 875 00:39:18,234 --> 00:39:20,718 explore resources from different sorts of 876 00:39:20,718 --> 00:39:23,166 thinkers and really think through what 877 00:39:23,166 --> 00:39:26,354 resonates with us what makes sense to us 878 00:39:26,354 --> 00:39:29,554 what feels empowering and right Yeah 879 00:39:29,554 --> 00:39:31,858 that's good We could potentially have some 880 00:39:31,858 --> 00:39:34,834 I mean I do have different male pastors or 881 00:39:34,834 --> 00:39:37,782 male leaders in the church some in 882 00:39:37,782 --> 00:39:39,974 evangelical spaces some just in the 883 00:39:39,974 --> 00:39:42,360 Protestant world or the Catholic world in 884 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:44,646 general some Orthodox.There's a large 885 00:39:44,646 --> 00:39:47,510 ocean of Christianity out there right With 886 00:39:47,510 --> 00:39:50,026 various expressions of it.People often 887 00:39:50,026 --> 00:39:52,554 will be like the Bible is clear And it's 888 00:39:52,554 --> 00:40:01,902 like really Because I'm not sure even in 889 00:40:01,902 --> 00:40:04,366 English we've agreed very much on the 890 00:40:04,366 --> 00:40:07,070 clarity of certain things But anyway the 891 00:40:07,070 --> 00:40:13,122 good news is we have a lot of diversity 892 00:40:13,122 --> 00:40:15,746 that listen to this podcast of many 893 00:40:15,746 --> 00:40:20,238 religions and then some who have consider 894 00:40:20,238 --> 00:40:22,434 themselves a or agnostic have no religion 895 00:40:22,434 --> 00:40:28,334 at all Maybe were raised with one and 896 00:40:28,334 --> 00:40:29,766 don't now or never really had one.And all 897 00:40:29,766 --> 00:40:31,974 of that is welcome here in this podcast 898 00:40:31,974 --> 00:40:35,714 But as you think about some of our male 899 00:40:35,714 --> 00:40:37,766 pastors that might be listening or male 900 00:40:37,766 --> 00:40:40,334 church leaders what is one thing you would 901 00:40:40,334 --> 00:40:42,986 ask them to do to consider as many next 902 00:40:42,986 --> 00:40:46,246 step in terms of this conversation Just 903 00:40:46,246 --> 00:40:48,394 one thing Okay Three things Three things 904 00:40:48,394 --> 00:40:49,546 is fine Yeah.Ten things Yeah.I mean 905 00:40:49,546 --> 00:40:51,434 personally I would love it if more male 906 00:40:51,434 --> 00:40:52,718 pastors made an intentional effort to ask 907 00:40:52,718 --> 00:40:55,134 women in their congregation how they 908 00:40:55,134 --> 00:40:58,606 experience that congregation As a woman I 909 00:40:58,606 --> 00:41:00,974 think especially for those of us who have 910 00:41:00,974 --> 00:41:04,610 some things that are on our minds but we 911 00:41:04,610 --> 00:41:08,434 aren't sure how to bring up like just 912 00:41:08,434 --> 00:41:14,482 being initiated with or knowing that that 913 00:41:14,482 --> 00:41:19,094 feedback is welcome and wanted I think can 914 00:41:19,094 --> 00:41:27,254 go a really long way I would also say for 915 00:41:27,254 --> 00:41:30,314 pastors I think pastors lot of times not 916 00:41:30,314 --> 00:41:33,370 always but a lot of times male pastors 917 00:41:33,370 --> 00:41:36,266 read Scripture in a very male dominated 918 00:41:36,266 --> 00:41:39,802 way and preach in a very male dominated 919 00:41:39,802 --> 00:41:41,606 way So I think I'd ask male pastors to 920 00:41:41,606 --> 00:41:43,502 consider who are we focusing time on in 921 00:41:43,502 --> 00:41:45,934 our sermons Are we seeing the women in 922 00:41:45,934 --> 00:41:47,678 Scripture the passages that we're reading 923 00:41:47,678 --> 00:41:50,702 are we seeing them as fully human Are we 924 00:41:50,702 --> 00:41:53,614 reading maybe feminist or just a writers 925 00:41:53,614 --> 00:41:55,266 commentary on those characters and a just 926 00:41:55,266 --> 00:41:59,454 kind of how are women coming across in our 927 00:41:59,454 --> 00:42:01,746 sermons and our Bible studies and other 928 00:42:01,746 --> 00:42:03,406 resources we might have to offer Yeah 929 00:42:03,406 --> 00:42:07,574 Great advice Well this has been a really 930 00:42:07,574 --> 00:42:09,046 impactful conversation today Is there 931 00:42:09,046 --> 00:42:12,598 anything you would like to say here as we 932 00:42:12,598 --> 00:42:14,566 close this podcast to anybody listening 933 00:42:14,566 --> 00:42:16,806 that's sort of something you're really 934 00:42:16,806 --> 00:42:18,854 passionate about or that's really 935 00:42:18,854 --> 00:42:22,090 compelling.What do you want to leave our 936 00:42:22,090 --> 00:42:24,922 listeners with Yeah I just want people to 937 00:42:24,922 --> 00:42:27,334 feel so much freedom to pursue God and 938 00:42:27,334 --> 00:42:29,466 faith and spirituality in any ways that 939 00:42:29,466 --> 00:42:35,646 make sense to them and resonate with them 940 00:42:35,646 --> 00:42:37,854 and to explore different expressions of 941 00:42:37,854 --> 00:42:39,806 faith explore different kinds of faith 942 00:42:39,806 --> 00:42:42,834 communities And again I want women or 943 00:42:42,834 --> 00:42:46,354 other people who have been marginaLized in 944 00:42:46,354 --> 00:42:48,706 religious contexts to know that they're 945 00:42:48,706 --> 00:42:50,434 not alone in that to know that they're not 946 00:42:50,434 --> 00:42:58,614 being unfaithful to God or to the faith 947 00:42:58,614 --> 00:43:01,138 tradition if they have some questions or 948 00:43:01,138 --> 00:43:03,862 some things they wish were different or 949 00:43:03,862 --> 00:43:05,366 some things they push for change 950 00:43:05,366 --> 00:43:09,642 about.Yeah So I think I just want to 951 00:43:09,642 --> 00:43:11,638 encourage people to consider that vision 952 00:43:11,638 --> 00:43:16,314 of the world that we want to see to not 953 00:43:16,314 --> 00:43:17,914 settle for anything less to expect 954 00:43:17,914 --> 00:43:19,850 pushback for sure and keep going Don't 955 00:43:19,850 --> 00:43:24,430 take that as that, sign that we're not 956 00:43:24,430 --> 00:43:28,314 doing the right thing And to find the to 957 00:43:28,314 --> 00:43:30,126 find others who are on a similar journey 958 00:43:30,126 --> 00:43:31,886 because there are a ton of yeah.So good 959 00:43:31,886 --> 00:43:38,626 Yeah Very well Yeah As I mentioned I was 960 00:43:38,626 --> 00:43:43,554 in Memphis this week and went to the 961 00:43:43,554 --> 00:43:44,866 National Civil Rights Museum and one of 962 00:43:44,866 --> 00:43:47,460 the shirts in the bookstore or the little 963 00:43:47,460 --> 00:43:52,306 gift shop at the end was that whole quote 964 00:43:52,306 --> 00:43:53,458 of nice well behaved women rarely make 965 00:43:53,458 --> 00:43:55,462 history.Right It's a good thing to keep in 966 00:43:55,462 --> 00:43:57,814 mind Amen We have a long history of a Yeah 967 00:43:57,814 --> 00:44:03,450 we have a long history of faith.We would 968 00:44:03,450 --> 00:44:07,978 not have the right to vote in the United 969 00:44:07,978 --> 00:44:11,498 States without many women of faith who led 970 00:44:11,498 --> 00:44:13,246 that very strongly Not exclusively women 971 00:44:13,246 --> 00:44:15,406 of faith but definitely it was the faith 972 00:44:15,406 --> 00:44:17,566 of women that compelled them in some cases 973 00:44:17,566 --> 00:44:21,134 to want to see that women had the right to 974 00:44:21,134 --> 00:44:23,566 speak in our government a many thing They 975 00:44:23,566 --> 00:44:25,246 were often involved in the temperance 976 00:44:25,246 --> 00:44:27,266 movement They were involved in so many 977 00:44:27,266 --> 00:44:28,706 things a many of them Although that's a 978 00:44:28,706 --> 00:44:29,666 complicated history as well when it comes 979 00:44:29,666 --> 00:44:32,414 to white women and women of Chinese 980 00:44:32,414 --> 00:44:35,774 descent and black women in the US.But 981 00:44:35,774 --> 00:44:37,862 hopefully this is something men and women 982 00:44:37,862 --> 00:44:40,774 of all races could come closer and come 983 00:44:40,774 --> 00:44:43,446 around the table to with our differences 984 00:44:43,446 --> 00:44:45,318 listening to one the respecting each other 985 00:44:45,318 --> 00:44:49,858 So I thank you for this book Once again 986 00:44:49,858 --> 00:44:51,206 everybody pick up Liz's book Nice churchy 987 00:44:51,206 --> 00:44:53,562 patriarchy And how can people find you and 988 00:44:53,562 --> 00:44:55,786 your writing and find out more what you're 989 00:44:55,786 --> 00:44:58,314 putting out there Yeah I have and website 990 00:44:58,314 --> 00:45:00,602 Lizcoulidgejenkins.com that has some info 991 00:45:00,602 --> 00:45:02,842 about the book and other writings The book 992 00:45:02,842 --> 00:45:04,846 is available for pre order on Amazon 993 00:45:04,846 --> 00:45:07,262 Barnes Noble and Bookshop.org And I also I 994 00:45:07,262 --> 00:45:09,182 post pretty regularly on Instagram and I 995 00:45:09,182 --> 00:45:11,006 love connecting with people there So 996 00:45:11,006 --> 00:45:12,222 that's at Lizcoolj Perfect.Liz thank you 997 00:45:12,222 --> 00:45:17,634 so much for being on today Thank you for 998 00:45:17,634 --> 00:45:19,026 writing this book for putting you heart 999 00:45:19,026 --> 00:45:21,700 and soul into it I know it's hard work but 1000 00:45:21,700 --> 00:45:26,966 we really appreciate your voice And yeah 1001 00:45:26,966 --> 00:45:29,590 keep writing keep speaking We need you in 1002 00:45:29,590 --> 00:45:31,814 the conversation.Thanks for being on today 1003 00:45:31,814 --> 00:45:37,526 Thank you so much Thank you so much for 1004 00:45:37,526 --> 00:45:39,682 having me That whole narrative of her 1005 00:45:39,682 --> 00:45:41,814 story and being at Stanford and being in a 1006 00:45:41,814 --> 00:45:46,794 sort of ministry for the first time where 1007 00:45:46,794 --> 00:45:47,994 she started to see this whole theology 1008 00:45:47,994 --> 00:45:49,514 that she hadn't been exposed to within 1009 00:45:49,514 --> 00:45:50,458 Christianity is probably experience that 1010 00:45:50,458 --> 00:45:52,626 some of you listening have had And it 1011 00:45:52,626 --> 00:45:54,974 could have been the reverse could have 1012 00:45:54,974 --> 00:45:57,774 been that you grew up in a very 1013 00:45:57,774 --> 00:46:00,606 complementarian sort of on of Christianity 1014 00:46:00,606 --> 00:46:02,640 and then it was OD to be in egalitarian 1015 00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:08,226 space.Or maybe the same is true of 1016 00:46:08,226 --> 00:46:11,714 whatever faith background you have or even 1017 00:46:11,714 --> 00:46:13,554 just community that you're raised in 1018 00:46:13,554 --> 00:46:16,674 outside of just the faith expression And 1019 00:46:16,674 --> 00:46:18,902 so yeah as we encounter spaces that are so 1020 00:46:18,902 --> 00:46:22,326 different than how we were raised it does 1021 00:46:22,326 --> 00:46:23,878 give us an opportunity to rethink things 1022 00:46:23,878 --> 00:46:26,406 And that can be helpful if we allow it to 1023 00:46:26,406 --> 00:46:31,446 cause us to be curious And that curiosity 1024 00:46:31,446 --> 00:46:33,946 leads us to knowledge And knowledge can 1025 00:46:33,946 --> 00:46:36,586 give us opportunity to make decisions that 1026 00:46:36,586 --> 00:46:38,746 would be different than what we would make 1027 00:46:38,746 --> 00:46:41,866 if we didn't have that same 1028 00:46:41,866 --> 00:46:43,230 knowledge.Right But occasionally exposure 1029 00:46:43,230 --> 00:46:47,390 to new communities can be more narrow ones 1030 00:46:47,390 --> 00:46:51,614 that allow less curiosity and in fact 1031 00:46:51,614 --> 00:46:54,914 stifle it or even outright prohibit it by 1032 00:46:54,914 --> 00:46:56,162 prohibiting questions from even being 1033 00:46:56,162 --> 00:47:02,178 asked or punishing those who do And I know 1034 00:47:02,178 --> 00:47:03,554 several of you listening to this have 1035 00:47:03,554 --> 00:47:05,986 experienced that as well And in faith 1036 00:47:05,986 --> 00:47:08,646 communities which is incredibly 1037 00:47:08,646 --> 00:47:11,378 heartbreaking and wrong and can cause 1038 00:47:11,378 --> 00:47:12,886 quite that bit of religious trauma from 1039 00:47:12,886 --> 00:47:13,858 those high control religious environments 1040 00:47:13,858 --> 00:47:17,266 that some of you listening have come out 1041 00:47:17,266 --> 00:47:20,380 of or are starting to come out of or are 1042 00:47:20,380 --> 00:47:25,254 still in and don't know how to get out I 1043 00:47:25,254 --> 00:47:28,394 hope that her book and her journey can 1044 00:47:28,394 --> 00:47:31,718 being helpful as she walks through that 1045 00:47:31,718 --> 00:47:33,534 process.She does talk about in her book 1046 00:47:33,534 --> 00:47:36,334 about being even in seminary as and trying 1047 00:47:36,334 --> 00:47:41,566 to figure out how to speak up as a woman 1048 00:47:41,566 --> 00:47:43,274 in cause context a was not always 1049 00:47:43,274 --> 00:47:46,558 favorable toward that And so I do want to 1050 00:47:46,558 --> 00:47:48,946 just read a part of her book and I do hope 1051 00:47:48,946 --> 00:47:50,866 that you pick it up and read it yourself 1052 00:47:50,866 --> 00:47:53,266 The world is a less interesting less 1053 00:47:53,266 --> 00:47:54,466 equitable and less wonderful place when 1054 00:47:54,466 --> 00:47:56,126 women's perspectives even and especially 1055 00:47:56,126 --> 00:47:57,586 the ones that contradict dominant 1056 00:47:57,586 --> 00:47:59,062 perspectives are not spoken and heard 1057 00:47:59,062 --> 00:48:01,894 Patriarchal people in power might not want 1058 00:48:01,894 --> 00:48:03,286 to hear it but our churches and classrooms 1059 00:48:03,286 --> 00:48:04,642 cities communities governments societies a 1060 00:48:04,642 --> 00:48:07,394 need women's opinions Even or especially 1061 00:48:07,394 --> 00:48:10,234 the outspoken ones the emotional ones the 1062 00:48:10,234 --> 00:48:12,234 passionate ones.So yeah pick up Liz's book 1063 00:48:12,234 --> 00:48:12,986 nice Churchy Patriarchy reclaiming Women's 1064 00:48:12,986 --> 00:48:13,706 Humanity from Evangelicalism And let me 1065 00:48:13,706 --> 00:48:18,954 know what yourself. think We'll also a her 1066 00:48:18,954 --> 00:48:21,246 of course in our difference maker 1067 00:48:21,246 --> 00:48:24,334 community And please if you haven't joined 1068 00:48:24,334 --> 00:48:28,350 it's as little as 5 a month and you can 1069 00:48:28,350 --> 00:48:31,326 get extra content so much extra content in 1070 00:48:31,326 --> 00:48:34,142 there.And we'll be talking with her about 1071 00:48:34,142 --> 00:48:39,698 going a little bit deeper on some of this 1072 00:48:39,698 --> 00:48:43,682 with her And it's exclusively there in our 1073 00:48:43,682 --> 00:48:48,966 Difference Maker community So you can go 1074 00:48:48,966 --> 00:48:54,374 to A World of Difference sorry you can go 1075 00:48:54,374 --> 00:48:56,886 to Patreon.com And World of Difference and 1076 00:48:56,886 --> 00:48:59,722 join today Would love to have you anyways 1077 00:48:59,722 --> 00:49:05,066 wherever you are in the world today 1078 00:49:05,066 --> 00:49:07,114 whatever's going on joined your life 1079 00:49:07,114 --> 00:49:09,034 whatever wild and a insanity is around you 1080 00:49:09,034 --> 00:49:11,946 that you just can't engage in for another 1081 00:49:11,946 --> 00:49:14,126 single second just take talking deep 1082 00:49:14,126 --> 00:49:16,494 breath Go do something nice for yourself 1083 00:49:16,494 --> 00:49:18,382 that feels comfortable for your body 1084 00:49:18,382 --> 00:49:20,426 because the body keeps the score.And this 1085 00:49:20,426 --> 00:49:22,542 trauma that some of you are living with 1086 00:49:22,542 --> 00:49:25,246 around the world sorry, that you're 1087 00:49:25,246 --> 00:49:28,322 observing daily and wherever you are 1088 00:49:28,322 --> 00:49:30,354 working in war conflict zones working in 1089 00:49:30,354 --> 00:49:33,138 disaster relief areas working in places 1090 00:49:33,138 --> 00:49:34,706 where the vulnerable are being exploited 1091 00:49:34,706 --> 00:49:38,694 and oppressed I know that many of you are 1092 00:49:38,694 --> 00:49:42,034 doing incredible work around the world but 1093 00:49:42,034 --> 00:49:44,598 it's important to take care of yourself So 1094 00:49:44,598 --> 00:49:47,446 a do something nice for yourself today 1095 00:49:47,446 --> 00:49:49,586 that just makes you feel good and allows 1096 00:49:49,586 --> 00:49:52,006 you to take a break because tomorrow it'll 1097 00:49:52,006 --> 00:49:53,066 all be there Again thanks for listening 1098 00:49:53,066 --> 00:49:55,734 Thanks for making a difference and just 1099 00:49:55,734 --> 00:49:59,306 thanks for being a part of this 1100 00:49:59,306 --> 00:50:02,314 community.You mean a lot to me undefined 1101 00:50:02,314 --> 00:50:04,890 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1102 00:50:04,890 --> 00:50:06,926 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1103 00:50:06,926 --> 00:50:09,230 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1104 00:50:09,230 --> 00:50:11,006 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1105 00:50:11,006 --> 00:50:11,566 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1106 00:50:11,566 --> 00:50:12,478 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1107 00:50:12,478 --> 00:50:13,214 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1108 00:50:13,214 --> 00:50:13,806 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1109 00:50:13,806 --> 00:50:16,286 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1110 00:50:16,286 --> 00:50:17,230 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1111 00:50:17,230 --> 00:50:18,334 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1112 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