Unpaid, Unseen, and Expected: How the Pastor’s Wife Role Replaced Women’s Ordination with Dr. Beth Allison Barr (Best of 2025)

Lori Adams-Brown (00:02.158)
Rounding out our very last of four best of 2025 podcast episodes from last year is none other than our guest, Dr. Beth Allison Barr, who came back on the show last year for the second book, Becoming the Pastor's Wife, How Marriage Replaced Ordination as a Woman's Path to Ministry. You'll remember that she came on when her bestselling book, The Making of Biblical Womanhood was released. this year, last year she came

to talk about the second book as sort of a related book to this whole history of women, both in the Southern Baptist Convention and within evangelicalism and Christianity as a whole, with her specialty in medieval history, but also the history of women throughout Christianity. And when she released this book, it was so timely because the trad-wife conversation was certainly increasing last year in the spring.

when this released and just entering this conversation with her such well written book, she's not only a brilliant historian, but she's also had her own lived experience as a pastor's wife herself and as a professor at Baylor University. And just her scholarship and her just presence here on the podcast, as well as all of her media appearances and NPR and in different places has really endeared her.

to both me and to you and our community here of listeners. She's just not only an incredible human being who has taken her role seriously as a historian to lay out for us very artfully what the history has been like, particularly for pastors wives and how this role of unpaid labor that is a significant labor and job, in fact, sometimes

maybe best described as two full-time jobs or even more, the amount of expectation on these pastor's wives in what is replacing what used to be more of an ordination and something recognized as the job that it is that should be paid and recognized and be given the title and the leadership recognition and authority that this role.

Lori Adams-Brown (02:24.79)
really deserves in the sense of how involved it is. And so as she wrote this book, both her own personal lived experience and the history of women that she interviewed and read and researched about for the book, it's not only so well written, it became a New York Times bestseller, which is no surprise to me because as many of you who read the book and listened to this episode last year know, she is just an incredible thought leader.

and really came into this whole scene of the trans wife movement last year here in the United States at a time where we really needed to have a much deeper conversation around what this is for women and for men in faith spaces, but in all types of spaces. I think this book really touches on the areas of unpaid labor for women leaders in multiple arenas, politics being an example as well, the expectations on a wife to do a role.

with unpaid labor is similar in some ways. And the intersection of the politics and the religion in this nation here in the United States has certainly become a very significant Venn diagram. really excited to re-release this episode once again to the remarkable, the brilliant, the just really outstanding thought leader that she is. Welcome back to the best of 2025, a re-listen and re-release with Dr. Beth Allison Barr.
Beth Allison Barr (00:01.154)
That's okay.

Lori Adams-Brown (00:01.397)
All right, so we'll go from the question. Yeah, just go ahead and answer your question.

Beth Allison Barr (00:05.174)
One of the stories that I talk about in the book is the story of a woman named Willie Dawson. And she's a woman who has particular resonance for me because I lived in the residential hall as a faculty in residence for six years in the Dawson residential hall. And so I walked past her picture like every day for six years.

And I still remember the moment I was in the Southern Baptist Archives and I like flipped a page and I see that portrait of Willie Dawson staring back out at me. And even I knew she had been the pastor's wife of First Baptist Church in Waco, which was a really significant Baptist Church in Texas. But what I didn't know about her was that she had been and she died in 1965, I think, I have to remember. But in the 1930s,

She, in the late 1920s and 30s and through the 40s, she was a very significant member of not just the Southern Baptist Convention. In fact, she was actually nominated to be the vice president of the Southern Baptist Convention, which I know was just crazy to me. And she also preached internationally at Baptist events globally around the world. She also preached in Texas.

used her podium for the WMU. She was a major force within the WMU. In fact, she was one of the people that helped keep the Southern Baptist Convention alive during the Depression. Because the only reason the Southern Baptist Convention survived the Depression was because the WMU raised enough money to keep the SBC alive. And that's literally it. And Willie Dawson was one of these women who did that.

And so it was just so striking to me to see this woman who I had this connection with in my hall, who had been not only a preaching woman in the SBC, but also had been applauded by all of these male leaders, had been given this platform, allowed to have this platform by all of these male leaders, and nobody questioned it. This was what, this is what you could do.

Beth Allison Barr (02:22.784)
and her voice was celebrated. And so the question that you ask is, know, what in the world happened? If you think about, you know, she died in 1965. There is the reason I ran across her name is because I was researching the pastor's wife group, the convention, which is part of the Southern Baptist or it's an auxiliary part of the Southern Baptist Convention. And they named an award for Willie Dawson.

It's the J.M. Dawson Service Award. Now it's just called the Dawson Award, I think. They changed the name of it a few times, but it's always the Dawson Award. And it was for the best pastor's wife. And so the best pastor's wife in the 1960s here, and when the award started in the late 50s, the best pastor's wife is a woman like Willie Dawson, who is a woman who is not only engaged in her.

You know, she's not just supporting the ministry of her husband, but she's actually engaged in ministry that's her own all around the world. And today, The Best Pastor's Wife, if you think about the handbook of Dorothy Patterson, the handbook for pastor's wife, The Best Pastor's Wife is a woman who stays home, cares for the children as the primary, that's her primary identity. And every, everything she does centers.

around her husband. Her whole identity is built around that of her husband. And if she steps outside of that role, then she is seen as being prideful, as being ungodly, as causing harm to her husband and to her family. And it's this, you know, it's this radical shift that happens between the 1960s and the early 2000s. And this is one of the points I want people to know is that

This was like a light switch. was like a, you know, women could do everything and then all of a sudden in the 1980s that light switch gets flipped. And now the purpose is trying to push women out of these positions with the, and what changed was the entry into power of men like Paige Patterson and Paul Pressler.

Beth Allison Barr (04:43.182)
Paul Pressler is that judge in Texas who he is now deceased, but he allegedly has abused, I don't even know how many young boys, yeah, in horrific conditions. And so during the time of the power grab of the SBC, he was allegedly involved, legally I'm still using that word, but he was allegedly still involved in the abuse of all of these young men. And Paige Patterson,

Lori Adams-Brown (04:51.346)
Many.

Beth Allison Barr (05:10.222)
was working alongside of him and Paige Patterson was also accused of covering up these types of abuses and this is what led to him losing his job in 2018. It's so these yeah yep.

Lori Adams-Brown (05:25.289)
Yes, I signed that petition very, very quickly. So I was like, nope, no, we need to get rid of that. Yeah, he covered up multiple sexual assaults, not just from his buddy, Paul Pressler. Incidentally, yeah, the Dr. PPs, they're both PP as their initials. I just think, hmm, we're just gonna leave that there. yeah, not good people who led the.

Beth Allison Barr (05:32.685)
That's exactly right.

Lori Adams-Brown (05:50.23)
quote unquote, conservative resurgence or fundamentalist takeover, which also affected women until now in this generation. The ripple effects of something that can happen so quickly, the shifting of minds, the indoctrination, the changing of seminary classes, the whole generation of people that ended up going into ministry post all of that, when all of these changes, when women were fired from seminaries and, you know, books were coming out and all of it, it is, it was quick.

Beth Allison Barr (05:50.755)
No.

Beth Allison Barr (06:07.651)
Yes.

Lori Adams-Brown (06:17.693)
and it was pervasive and it was robust and it erased some of the memory. So the memory of this Dawson woman is largely gone and yet she was so significant. So it's a lot to process and as a historian your research is so key for us to understand and to remember what has been intentionally lost and made invisible. You talk about though, and you mentioned this version of it earlier,

Beth Allison Barr (06:23.65)
It did.

She is.

Beth Allison Barr (06:40.312)
Yes.

Lori Adams-Brown (06:45.098)
This whole two for the price of one where a pastor's wives are often expected to serve the church without any recognition or compensation. I'm wondering how do these expectations that the wife, you know, print the bulletin, you mentioned that. And then, you know, in the case of my own mother, when I was little, she had to be the janitor and play the piano, which she was actually very good at, but all for free, unpaid labor that it causes harm to women. How is this causing harm? And what is, what is so wrong about all of that?

Beth Allison Barr (06:47.553)
Yeah.

Beth Allison Barr (07:13.55)
So, you know, I think, and this is one of the things too, when you talk to women who are in this pastor's wife role, and so many of them have this stress, this pressure that they carry with them, that the expectations are for them to provide this type of unpaid labor. And when they resist it, or they don't have time for it, or that's not what they want to do, that's not their gifting or their calling,

They feel guilt that they're actually sinning by resisting what God has called them to do. And this is crazy to me because we argue that the idea of the pastor's wife in some ways is the ideal biblical woman. Yet there is absolutely zero example of this type of two-for-one principle and pastor's wife role in the Bible. It's not there.

It is simply not there. We can try to make it there. We can pretend things that are there. Like Dorothy Patterson tries to make Priscilla be this two-for-one model. And it is simply an absolutely outrageous claim that has no biblical nor historical support. But what this does to women is, first of all, it denies what God has called them actually to do.

Whereas some women fit in this mold, they want to support their husbands, they don't actually want to be in ministry, this is fine with them. And that's perfectly fine. Some women, that's perfectly fine, that's what they want to do. But not all women want to do that. Some women have their own vocational callings that may be completely separate from their husbands. Some women have their own ministry callings that may be completely separate from their husbands, or they want to serve in ministry alongside their husbands.

but not in this type of subordinate, you have to be the janitor and teach children and play the piano role. They may be called to pastoral roles, just like their husbands. And so what we have created is a system that makes men, if they are called to ministry, they are automatically called to some type of leadership role, which may not actually be their gifting either, which I think is a lot of our problem in the church.

Beth Allison Barr (09:38.446)
And women are always called to what one of the pastor's wife books that I read says is a follow ship role. And that is a word that I think it was Betty Cobble used in her 1982 book. She's a Southern Baptist woman who wrote that in the early 80s. I think, you know, this follow ship role and regardless of how they are made, regardless of what their gifts are, regardless of anything else.

What this model teaches is that women are called by God to put away everything else about them and follow.

their husbands. And that means giving up the way God made you to fit into this very narrow mold of providing support staff labor for free for the church.

Lori Adams-Brown (10:37.131)
Yeah.

And I think it's, it's significant because you're being asked to give up what God gave you your God given gifts, which if anybody's unclear on this, let me be clear. There is no biblical basis. You will not find it anywhere in scripture that gifts are given based on gender. God does not gift in that way. So there is no case, no matter what your theology is. so we, women are being asked to give up their, their gifts. And if you have leadership gifts of any type, you are especially not allowed to use those. And if you do like in my case,

Beth Allison Barr (10:53.411)
rights.

Lori Adams-Brown (11:07.607)
Sometimes some people will perceive you as a threat or be uncomfortable or be you'll be like a unicorn. You'll be like the only woman in a room in a strategy session. It'll just be weird and awkward. And even then, you know, the pipeline of leadership just doesn't exist for you and you're not being paid anyway. So, but I want to talk about something that has been very

we're just going to use the word annoying for me since I was in college. And that is, so my friend Susanna Raffield, if you're listening, and I were in a sociology of religion class back at Sanford University, a Southern Baptist University that much like Baylor was considered kind of liberal to some people. I had a professor, my absolute hands down favorite professor I ever had, Dr. Penny Marler. She taught sociology of religion. She was a mentee of Molly Marshall. If you know, you know.

And my friend Susanna and I did a paper comparing Dorothy Patterson's hats to the hijab.

and just understanding submission and Islam and the Southern Baptist world at the time. And we just had the best time writing that paper. We went to the mosque and interviewed women. We were interviewing women and all kinds of Southern Baptist spaces for that. And it was just like, I don't know, we had the best time. My friend Susanna ended up making a casserole and inviting Dr. Marlar over and we just had the best time talking about it. let's talk about Dorothy Patterson's hats that covered her hair, serving as her personal outward symbol of

Beth Allison Barr (12:13.411)
Yes.

Beth Allison Barr (12:35.234)
Yeah.

Lori Adams-Brown (12:38.1)
to mail authority. What was that all about?

Beth Allison Barr (12:40.93)
Yeah. So, you know, since I got into this project, I had heard a couple of conflicting things about why she actually wore these hats. One person told me that later on she said it was simply because she didn't have to fix her hair all the time, which, you know, I guess could be a practical sort of thing. You just put a hat on and you never have a bad hair day. That's plausible, I suppose. But I think...

you know, the general understanding of these hats and, and Patterson, she actually did say this on times is that it symbolized her always being under the authority of her husband. And so what this actually worked, you know, this was a clever, this was a clever ploy, I think. And Dorothy Patterson from everyone that I talked to about her and everything that I've seen and read about her, she's really smart.

You know, it's amazing to think about how her gifts might have been used if she had chosen differently. But she, you know, by claiming, by wearing this hat wherever she went, she was able to do things like enter into pulpits, into classrooms where men were present.

and she was able to aspectively preach and teach while still maintaining this aura, this idea that she was submitting to male authority because she was covering her head. So it was a really clever ploy for her to be able to teach female submission to men as well as to women.

while still maintaining this fiction that she was being submissive herself. So that, yeah, so it's, and it became what she's known for. If you look her up, this is what you will see is her with these pictures of her hats. And there's lots of stories about how much her hats cost, which is another whole thing, but I may leave that one to somebody else.

Lori Adams-Brown (14:58.11)
Yes, I don't blame you. Yes, I, there's nothing the patriarchy loves more than for a woman like a Phyllis Schlafly or Dorothy Patterson out there telling the women to stay home, not rock the boat and leave the big powerful decisions to the men. When the men and the patriarchy can outsource that to a powerful woman using her power and somehow gaslighting everybody by acting like we're all staying home when they're in action.

Beth Allison Barr (15:17.41)
Yes.

Lori Adams-Brown (15:28.033)
not actually staying home and telling other women to do so. This is how this is just gold for the patriarchy. This really forwards the patriarchal movement like nothing else. And we see it in many spaces. We also see when people, women, and there's no shortage of things that have been written about this. think even Kate Bowler kind of mentions this in her book, right? That women who overtly say,

Beth Allison Barr (15:29.325)
Right.

Lori Adams-Brown (15:54.806)
that they are submitting to male authority. They get power and they get speaking opportunities and they get book deals and they get whole ministries in a space that they would otherwise not get any. And it is a trick. It's like a loophole and it's...

Beth Allison Barr (16:08.503)
Right.

Lori Adams-Brown (16:13.255)
It's, but it's damaging. It's very damaging to themselves, to their own dignity while they're, you know, standing beside their husband in a way that really, it's a bit of like a fawn response to tyranny. It's a bit of like when we see people.

Even now, know, people have different, you know, understanding and political views around the Trump administration. But we saw people even before he came into power, promising to submit to him flying to Mar-a-Lago. And it's a similar thing to just say, I'll submit to you if you'll let me have power. What are your thoughts around that?

Beth Allison Barr (16:45.56)
Yes. gosh. No, you're you're exactly right. And and this is one of the things, too, that I think with women and a lot, you know, on the one hand, if you play by the rules, this is something that we've always, you know, sort of I remember hearing that phrase for the first time in a women's history class at Chapel Hill. And it was talking about that women who support patriarchy. And we often called it the patriarchal bargain. People don't like to talk about that. But.

women bargaining with patriarchy, that if you do this, if you support patriarchy, if you support this idea of male leadership within the church, then you are able to get a platform to preach and to teach. And say, for example, your calling really is to support women and to help women. This is a patriarchal bargain that may seem worth it for you to pay.

because you're like, well, I don't really want to teach men anyway. And I get to do what I want to do. I get to go around and teach all of these women. And so I'm doing good. I'm doing good. Right. And yes, you are doing good. But the reason you're able to do this is because you are supporting this idea that suppresses other women's giftings and callings. And so you are essentially

benefiting by exploiting, oppressing other people. And I mean, that's just that's the reality of it. And then you're also by maintaining this narrative. And I mean, this was hard. I can say this because I was part of the system and I did this too. And I admit this in the making of biblical womanhood. And I admit it again in a different way based upon some research on the pastor's wife role in this book by

being that model of a biblical woman who submits to other, to submits always to male authority and by arguing that this is the godly role, you are also teaching other women to do that too. And which again means them perhaps putting aside their gifting, which means perhaps them maintaining

Beth Allison Barr (19:05.102)
a dangerous place within their own marriage if they're in a marriage that is potentially harmful to them and or to their children. And you are also inspiring other really good meaning women who then will preach this to other, you know, this sort of the networks, you know, why does patriarchy work? Because women support it. That's why it works. And part of playing by the rules

And getting a platform through supporting this male hierarchy is helping to perpetuate a system that hurts people.

Lori Adams-Brown (19:45.15)
Absolutely. We see it in so many spaces, not just the center of address and the evangelical space, but in the political space, we see it in business anywhere patriarchy exists. We see the outsourcing of the upholding of it to women who do that for free. And it's, it takes intentionality. It takes a lot of soul searching and inner the willingness to look inside and a lot of curiosity, but it is.

a robust system that women support. How do you think, or I would say, what is the burden of being the ideal pastor's wife really do to women in the end?

Beth Allison Barr (20:24.474)
gosh, you know, my mind always goes back to that moment of me in that atrium and thinking about, you know, for years I lived under this stress, under this worry that something I might do would harm my husband's position. You know, if I said the wrong thing, and you know, this happened to me all the time. I tell one of the stories where I was taking...

girls to Starbucks and having coffee, having sort of mentoring, we'd play games, we'd talk about, I'd always have a little short devotional sort of thing for them. And it was great, it's sort of experience with those girls. And I got my husband in trouble because some people in the church complained about what they saw as a left liberal agenda at Starbucks.

And so I like had, you know, and so here I am doing something that I thought the church wanted me to do, but yet it backfired. And and this was an, you know, my husband was essentially told that I had to stop doing that. And so, you know, it's almost like walking on eggshells when you're in these spaces that are so authoritarian and and think, you know, the Southern Baptist world, which

has created this very particular image of what the pastor's wife should be. And if you do not meet that standard, you know, I mean, you can think about times when you're exhausted and you've been doing all of the things for the church as well as trying to do, you know, keep up with your kids, et cetera. And you just don't have time to make that casserole and go to church that night and you don't show up. And then the next day, you know, people, you hear about it.

And people are like, well, where's your wife? Why isn't she here too? Why is she not supportive? Or what if you have bad kids? You know, this or they're not actually bad kids, but they're perceived as bad kids. You know, they don't, they push buttons. don't act, know, again, you're not doing your job. That's reflecting poorly on your husband. And so women are doing this balancing act where they are trying to do what God has called them to do.

Beth Allison Barr (22:46.68)
They're trying to do all the things. You know, I remember one woman telling me that reading Dorothy Patterson's book made her just want to give up because she was like, I can never do that. It's the expectations are so high. And for people who don't know, Dorothy Patterson had servants that did all this stuff for her.

She didn't actually make all those meals and lunches and et cetera. Okay, she had people in the house who did that for her. It wasn't, it's the Instagram, her book is the Instagram sort of thing. And yet we have all these real women who are trying to live up to this unreachable standard and then feeling punished when they don't meet up to it. And then when they feel guilty about it.

Lori Adams-Brown (23:12.455)
It wasn't real before Instagram made it look, yeah.

Beth Allison Barr (23:30.478)
They feel like they're being prideful and greedy and sinful and they're not supporting their husband enough. And then if you add to this all of the evangelical expectations on women in the bedroom to fully support their husbands and be available sexually to their husbands whenever. mean, it's just, it's the stress level for these women is just so some of these women are so high. I'm not saying this is every.

Lori Adams-Brown (23:42.373)
yeah.

Lori Adams-Brown (23:49.449)
Yeah, sex slaves basically, yeah.

Beth Allison Barr (23:59.832)
pastor's wife experience. But for women who are in the right cocktail and are believing and are in these conservative evangelical spaces, this is a reality for a lot of women. And I can say that with the authority of having read 150 pastor's wife books.

Lori Adams-Brown (24:15.209)
It is.

Lori Adams-Brown (24:20.565)
Well, I think you're one of only one that can say that. So if anybody wants to debate that, like bring it on. You I mean, you, reach your 150 bucks too. my goodness. It's such a burden. It's so heartbreaking. These are people we know personally. These are people we've been in a, in a certain level and it is, it's just enough is enough, right? Not only are men in the church missing out on the gifts of women, like you said, who could Dorothy Patterson have been?

Beth Allison Barr (24:22.818)
Ha ha ha!

Beth Allison Barr (24:27.022)
That's exactly right.

Beth Allison Barr (24:39.352)
Yeah.

Lori Adams-Brown (24:50.408)
If she wasn't there trying to like push her husband to the top of the conservative resurgence movement and wearing her hats and teaching classes on how to make your dishes look pretty, like what could she have been? What could, what could all of these women be? And it doesn't mean that everybody has that leadership gift in that particular way, but I think leadership is if you have influence and women have so much influence on each other, clearly because this system is so easy to implement.

Beth Allison Barr (25:01.026)
Right.

Lori Adams-Brown (25:16.915)
where we uphold the patriarchy in all its forms within Christianity and elsewhere. you talk about together as a way forward, together for the gospel, what would it take for churches to really embrace a more inclusive vision of women's leadership and how can pastors, elders, pastors, wives, and I guess any congregant really work to bring change that honors instead of diminishes women.

Beth Allison Barr (25:38.466)
Yes. I mean, I try to tap into our imagination of what could be. And I, you know, I try to convey through this book that it's not an attack on the pastor's wife role. I'm a pastor's wife. I know how valuable this role can be. But yet at the same time, this role has been used to do harm by making it seem like it's the biblical model.

for what all women should aspire to, which is in this follow-ship role. And what that has done is that has helped to delegitimize women's independent ministry as pastors, as teachers, as whatever, missionaries, whatever, in these roles with, in ministry roles that are separate from their marital identity. It has delegitimized those roles. And so, know, sort of in a

epitomization of this is that picture of Jan Aldridge Clanton, who's a Southern Baptist ordained woman in the 1980s, debating with Dorothy Patterson at the Baptist History and Heritage Society, I think 1986. And Dorothy's wearing her hat and Dorothy is arguing against women's ordination as a pastor's wife. And Jan Aldridge Clanton is arguing for women's ordination as a woman in ministry. And it's just like this, this is what we've done is we have

pitted women against each other. And it just seems, what if instead of arguing like my role's better than yours, or my role's more godly than yours, what if we were like, wow, God called you too. And what if we actually work together instead of, you know, being like being threatened, pastor's wives being threatened by ordained women?

What if instead we were like, wow, look at all these things these women are doing in their position and I'm doing this in my position and this is all working together for the gospel. mean, I just seems to me that women have bought into this patriarchal system which has us fighting each other on these. You know, we talked with Meredith Stone for part of what for this book launch.

Beth Allison Barr (27:58.486)
And she is the director of Baptist Women in Ministry. And she talked about sort of these, you know, vertical that when you people who are under that power structure that all they have to vie for is this vertical playing field. And this is what has happened to women is we are we are fighting for the crumbs.

Lori Adams-Brown (28:18.901)
Waiting for the crumbs. That's your next book.

Beth Allison Barr (28:20.264)
And yeah, fighting for the crumbs when God has called us actually to, he's given us all of these different gifts to work together as a body. And what if we just let people do what God called them to do?

Lori Adams-Brown (28:35.414)
For real, for real. you know, divide and conquer is the oldest trick in the book. We see it happening now politically and it's, if we aren't together, that's how the other side wins. The dark forces, the greatest strategy out there is to have one scapegoat.

Beth Allison Barr (28:36.265)
Beth Allison Barr (28:50.744)
Yeah.

Lori Adams-Brown (28:55.114)
But for those of us who are caring people, we realize there's nuance in the world, right? And so although it can motivate a lot of people to do a lot of dark and horrible things and scapegoat a person, whether it's saying a DEI hire is what made the crash happen and the Potomac or whatever is happening, I hope that women hear this. I hope that men hear this and understand the call to.

Beth Allison Barr (29:09.838)
Alright.

Lori Adams-Brown (29:18.677)
come together, bring those differences around the table, celebrate each other, these God given gifts to stand in awe and wonder and say, wow, look what God gave you for the benefit of all of us. And that we can be deeply spiritual, however that looks together. And instead of pointing out each other's flaws, there was a moment, I may have mentioned this when we did our previous interview, I don't remember, but I was in an international learning center, which if people don't know.

Beth Allison Barr (29:34.03)
Yes.

Lori Adams-Brown (29:45.174)
is in a place near Richmond, Virginia. It's like in a farm area and that's where, um, missionaries being trained, whether it's a short-term missionary, like summer volunteer or where you're going career, um, you go there and you get trained. So I'd been there multiple times, both for MK retreats and as a child, when my parents were going overseas and we lived there for a while. And then also in my own journey multiple times and on, um, one of our furlough times where we were on a state side assignment, we were there. was the last time I was there, I think. Um, and they had a little women's event for

Beth Allison Barr (29:54.126)
Mm-hmm.

Beth Allison Barr (30:02.402)
Yeah.

Lori Adams-Brown (30:15.287)
and they gave us a Bible, a Dorothy Patterson version of the Bible where she had, you she was signing, yeah, she was signing these copies, which I'm like, the audacity, the hubris to autograph the Bible. But anyway, that's also another podcast. But I've never once thrown the Bible across the room, but I'm just gonna tell you, they gave me that. I went straight back to my room. I threw that thing across the room into the trash can and my kids were like, mom, why are you throwing the Bible? And I was like, well, this is a woman named Dorothy Patterson and you need to know.

Beth Allison Barr (30:20.866)
don't think you told me that.

Beth Allison Barr (30:31.171)
Yeah.

Lori Adams-Brown (30:43.958)
but this is wrong. What she's saying about women is wrong. I, you know, I went to the Timothy, I know into the key passages, the ones they've like used to abuse us over the years and her interpretations of that were completely unfounded and she had her little section of it. And that's when I threw it across the room. I was like, this is so ungodly. This is not the God that I worship. How dare they give us this book. I was horrified. So these things were talking about

Beth Allison Barr (30:44.782)
Yeah.

Beth Allison Barr (31:02.594)
Yes.

Lori Adams-Brown (31:08.787)
They affect people, affect women in a visceral way because when you know that God has gifted you and you see a whole system squashing God's gifts, quenching the Holy Spirit on a systemic level in a very robust way.

Beth Allison Barr (31:12.408)
Yeah.

Lori Adams-Brown (31:23.227)
It's righteous anger. And so I hope that people read your book and come out of this with some calls to action. I'm going to have you stick around a little bit longer for our Difference Makers and ask you another question there, largely around, was there anything surprising in your research, as well as like, you know, what you kind of want people to understand from your writing. But thanks for being with us today. And how can people find you and follow your writing?

Beth Allison Barr (31:40.59)
Yeah.

Beth Allison Barr (31:46.336)
sure, thanks for having me. So they can always find me at Beth Ellison Bar. I'm on, well, I'm on Blue Sky. I'm not sure how long I'll be on threads. I am on Instagram for a while and then also my website, Beth Ellison Bar. I do have Becoming the Pastor's Wife will be out on March 18th.

Lori Adams-Brown (32:06.879)
So exciting. Pre-order it everybody. You're gonna wanna read this one. It's gonna be good. And thanks for being with us.

Beth Allison Barr (32:13.944)
Thank you.