The ripple effects of sexual violence: Rowena Chiu's story of trauma and advocacy

1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,458 Welcome to the a World of Difference 2 00:00:04,458 --> 00:00:06,766 podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown and this is 3 00:00:06,766 --> 00:00:08,606 a podcast for those who are different and 4 00:00:08,606 --> 00:00:12,426 want to make a difference. This podcast is 5 00:00:12,426 --> 00:00:15,086 sponsored by Betterhelp. 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Today, today I'm 34 00:01:25,986 --> 00:01:29,494 honored to welcome to the show abuse 35 00:01:29,494 --> 00:01:33,434 survivor and advocate Rowena Chu. Rowena 36 00:01:33,434 --> 00:01:35,910 worked for Harvey Weinstein and as a 37 00:01:35,910 --> 00:01:38,966 survivor of sexual assault at the hands of 38 00:01:38,966 --> 00:01:40,842 Harvey Weinstein when she was an assistant 39 00:01:40,842 --> 00:01:43,782 working for him. And she's also a hashtag 40 00:01:43,782 --> 00:01:47,114 too, activist, advocate, speaker, 41 00:01:47,114 --> 00:01:50,750 wonderful human being and writer. She 42 00:01:50,750 --> 00:01:53,194 wrote an op ed that many of you may have 43 00:01:53,194 --> 00:01:56,020 read in the New York Times describing her 44 00:01:56,020 --> 00:01:59,246 experience after having to be what she 45 00:01:59,246 --> 00:02:02,146 calls like the 20 years of silence, has 46 00:02:02,146 --> 00:02:06,194 been able to tell her story and wrote an 47 00:02:06,194 --> 00:02:08,306 op ed in the New York Times called Harvey 48 00:02:08,306 --> 00:02:10,966 Weinstein told me he liked chinese girls 49 00:02:10,966 --> 00:02:14,326 back in October of 2019. Rowena once again 50 00:02:14,326 --> 00:02:16,818 is a former assistant to Miramax CEO 51 00:02:16,818 --> 00:02:20,450 Harvey Weinstein and it was 1998 where she 52 00:02:20,450 --> 00:02:23,546 was sexually assaulted and had an NDA that 53 00:02:23,546 --> 00:02:26,202 she was required to sign. And so for 21 54 00:02:26,202 --> 00:02:28,458 years she was silent. She spoke about her 55 00:02:28,458 --> 00:02:30,218 experience. Finally, when things started 56 00:02:30,218 --> 00:02:32,254 to come out in the hashtag metoo movement, 57 00:02:32,254 --> 00:02:34,366 and you may have also seen her featured in 58 00:02:34,366 --> 00:02:38,206 the show, the movie, she said, rowena is 59 00:02:38,206 --> 00:02:40,522 an incredible human being. She's a 60 00:02:40,522 --> 00:02:44,238 wonderful now friend and I am so honored 61 00:02:44,238 --> 00:02:45,826 to have her on the show today, but that 62 00:02:45,826 --> 00:02:47,698 does come with a trigger warning. So if 63 00:02:47,698 --> 00:02:50,206 you have experienced sexual assault or 64 00:02:50,206 --> 00:02:52,622 abuse of any kind in a workplace 65 00:02:52,622 --> 00:02:55,666 environment or in any scenario, I just 66 00:02:55,666 --> 00:02:57,794 want to urge you to take care of yourself 67 00:02:57,794 --> 00:03:00,822 today. So listener discretion is advised. 68 00:03:00,822 --> 00:03:02,918 But on that note, for those of you who are 69 00:03:02,918 --> 00:03:04,674 going to stick with us or take this in 70 00:03:04,674 --> 00:03:07,906 chunks, however the case may be, I am so 71 00:03:07,906 --> 00:03:09,894 honored to bring Rowena on the show today 72 00:03:09,894 --> 00:03:12,346 because she's not only able to speak about 73 00:03:12,346 --> 00:03:14,122 her own experience now after all these 74 00:03:14,122 --> 00:03:15,914 years, but she is definitely an advocate 75 00:03:15,914 --> 00:03:18,602 for abuse, both in workplace environments, 76 00:03:18,602 --> 00:03:21,226 working with laws to help get those passed 77 00:03:21,226 --> 00:03:23,274 here in the United States. And she also 78 00:03:23,274 --> 00:03:24,926 speaks around the world about her 79 00:03:24,926 --> 00:03:27,246 experience for the hashtag too movement. 80 00:03:27,246 --> 00:03:29,962 And she is increasingly speaking in faith 81 00:03:29,962 --> 00:03:32,682 communities because she grew up as a 82 00:03:32,682 --> 00:03:35,426 Christian and churches and also realizes 83 00:03:35,426 --> 00:03:38,926 that abuse and church environments, and 84 00:03:38,926 --> 00:03:40,402 workplace environments in the church as 85 00:03:40,402 --> 00:03:42,626 well, are spaces where her voice really 86 00:03:42,626 --> 00:03:45,654 can make a difference. And so excited to 87 00:03:45,654 --> 00:03:47,286 bring her voice to you today if you've not 88 00:03:47,286 --> 00:03:49,190 had a chance to hear her before. But 89 00:03:49,190 --> 00:03:52,470 welcome to the show, my friend, Rowena 90 00:03:52,470 --> 00:04:00,490 Chu. Hello, Rowena. And a very warm 91 00:04:00,490 --> 00:04:02,214 welcome today to the World of Difference 92 00:04:02,214 --> 00:04:05,014 podcast. It's great to see you again. I'm 93 00:04:05,014 --> 00:04:08,682 excited to be here. It was so great to 94 00:04:08,682 --> 00:04:10,442 finally meet in person after connecting on 95 00:04:10,442 --> 00:04:13,598 social media and have brunch not long ago. 96 00:04:13,598 --> 00:04:15,326 We both live here in California. So glad 97 00:04:15,326 --> 00:04:20,074 we could make that know we had this very 98 00:04:20,074 --> 00:04:22,474 instant connection because we're know very 99 00:04:22,474 --> 00:04:23,678 passionate about some of the topics we're 100 00:04:23,678 --> 00:04:26,526 going to discuss today. But also, when I 101 00:04:26,526 --> 00:04:28,978 think about that know when we first met 102 00:04:28,978 --> 00:04:32,882 until now, I think about how when two 103 00:04:32,882 --> 00:04:34,974 people come together for the work of 104 00:04:34,974 --> 00:04:36,594 justice and speaking things out loud that 105 00:04:36,594 --> 00:04:39,574 are often not spoken out loud, it can be a 106 00:04:39,574 --> 00:04:42,278 very beautiful and horrible thing to hold 107 00:04:42,278 --> 00:04:44,614 at the same time. So I really appreciate 108 00:04:44,614 --> 00:04:46,598 you showing up today for this very 109 00:04:46,598 --> 00:04:48,650 difficult but hopefully really beautiful 110 00:04:48,650 --> 00:04:53,562 conversation. Of course. So my first 111 00:04:53,562 --> 00:04:55,018 question for you, right out the gate, I 112 00:04:55,018 --> 00:04:58,326 know you get a lot of interviews, you've 113 00:04:58,326 --> 00:05:00,394 written quite a bit about your experience. 114 00:05:00,394 --> 00:05:01,742 But because this is the world of 115 00:05:01,742 --> 00:05:04,734 difference podcast and we have once again, 116 00:05:04,734 --> 00:05:06,650 people around the world this week 117 00:05:06,650 --> 00:05:08,554 celebrating Lunar New Year, which is very 118 00:05:08,554 --> 00:05:11,962 exciting. You're the dragon. Yay. But also 119 00:05:11,962 --> 00:05:13,886 we're celebrating for some people, they 120 00:05:13,886 --> 00:05:15,298 celebrate Valentine's Day. There's a lot 121 00:05:15,298 --> 00:05:18,610 of just holiday celebrations happening. I 122 00:05:18,610 --> 00:05:22,782 just know that you have a lot of beautiful 123 00:05:22,782 --> 00:05:24,818 background that has a lot of diversity in 124 00:05:24,818 --> 00:05:27,202 it. And so would you give us a little bit 125 00:05:27,202 --> 00:05:29,178 about what formed you, the cultures that 126 00:05:29,178 --> 00:05:30,646 formed you, the places that formed you, 127 00:05:30,646 --> 00:05:32,150 sort of in a nutshell. So we kind of 128 00:05:32,150 --> 00:05:34,966 understand where you're coming from. Yes, 129 00:05:34,966 --> 00:05:36,726 absolutely. So both my parents were born 130 00:05:36,726 --> 00:05:39,194 in China, but they went to Hong Kong for 131 00:05:39,194 --> 00:05:41,674 their primary and secondary education. And 132 00:05:41,674 --> 00:05:43,254 actually, my grandparents and great 133 00:05:43,254 --> 00:05:44,918 grandparents were early christians in 134 00:05:44,918 --> 00:05:47,494 China. So my parents'families were 135 00:05:47,494 --> 00:05:49,786 religious refugees from mainland China and 136 00:05:49,786 --> 00:05:51,574 they ended up in Hong Kong for primary and 137 00:05:51,574 --> 00:05:53,494 secondary education. But then both my 138 00:05:53,494 --> 00:05:55,598 parents came to the UK for tertiary 139 00:05:55,598 --> 00:05:57,326 education and met and married there. And 140 00:05:57,326 --> 00:05:59,722 my sister and I were born there. So I 141 00:05:59,722 --> 00:06:02,318 identify as british born Chinese. And I 142 00:06:02,318 --> 00:06:04,958 think that's really complicated in a world 143 00:06:04,958 --> 00:06:07,098 where Asian can mean many different 144 00:06:07,098 --> 00:06:08,542 things. There's many different 145 00:06:08,542 --> 00:06:09,950 understandings of what it means to be 146 00:06:09,950 --> 00:06:11,742 asian. There's the idea of being second 147 00:06:11,742 --> 00:06:13,586 generation or first and a half generation, 148 00:06:13,586 --> 00:06:15,346 so you hear many different iterations. But 149 00:06:15,346 --> 00:06:17,474 I would call myself british born Chinese 150 00:06:17,474 --> 00:06:19,046 because I was born in the UK. I grew up in 151 00:06:19,046 --> 00:06:22,438 the UK. I think of myself as very british 152 00:06:22,438 --> 00:06:24,470 on the inside, I suppose, yellow on the 153 00:06:24,470 --> 00:06:26,886 outside. So I'm what you call a banana. 154 00:06:26,886 --> 00:06:28,502 But it's been very interesting for me 155 00:06:28,502 --> 00:06:31,046 because since I graduated university, I've 156 00:06:31,046 --> 00:06:33,174 lived all around the world. I've lived in 157 00:06:33,174 --> 00:06:34,598 Asia, in several countries in Asia. I've 158 00:06:34,598 --> 00:06:37,606 lived in several countries in Africa. I've 159 00:06:37,606 --> 00:06:39,626 lived and worked across Europe, obviously, 160 00:06:39,626 --> 00:06:42,342 and I'm now in my 17th year, which is 161 00:06:42,342 --> 00:06:45,006 staggering of being in the US. So I feel 162 00:06:45,006 --> 00:06:46,814 that I know all four of these continents 163 00:06:46,814 --> 00:06:49,306 pretty well, and I've had many different 164 00:06:49,306 --> 00:06:51,118 cultural experiences in each of them. And 165 00:06:51,118 --> 00:06:53,354 I think that's interesting because the 166 00:06:53,354 --> 00:06:55,742 metoo story is, at the end of the day, a 167 00:06:55,742 --> 00:06:58,786 global story that touches women everywhere 168 00:06:58,786 --> 00:07:00,626 from many different cultures. And so I've 169 00:07:00,626 --> 00:07:03,426 been privileged to go and speak into each 170 00:07:03,426 --> 00:07:06,354 one of these cultures that formed part of 171 00:07:06,354 --> 00:07:08,638 my identity. And for me, it feels very 172 00:07:08,638 --> 00:07:10,838 much like a giving back when I'm able to 173 00:07:10,838 --> 00:07:13,474 go to a culture or visit a city where I 174 00:07:13,474 --> 00:07:16,130 previously lived and discuss the metoo 175 00:07:16,130 --> 00:07:18,422 movement. It is really a reimmersion for 176 00:07:18,422 --> 00:07:20,714 me in the culture that I once belonged to 177 00:07:20,714 --> 00:07:23,078 and also a kind of speaking into that 178 00:07:23,078 --> 00:07:27,418 culture by way of a gift. That's so 179 00:07:27,418 --> 00:07:28,938 beautiful, and you really are making such 180 00:07:28,938 --> 00:07:30,618 a huge difference. I think speaking some 181 00:07:30,618 --> 00:07:33,486 of these hard things out loud really is a 182 00:07:33,486 --> 00:07:35,646 way to give language to people for what's 183 00:07:35,646 --> 00:07:38,894 hard to talk about. And I know with all 184 00:07:38,894 --> 00:07:42,026 the mix of your cultures, the chinese 185 00:07:42,026 --> 00:07:43,914 culture in particular, that's so 186 00:07:43,914 --> 00:07:45,614 formational with you, even though you were 187 00:07:45,614 --> 00:07:49,154 british born and raised, can be especially 188 00:07:49,154 --> 00:07:50,654 hard to talk about. And with the 189 00:07:50,654 --> 00:07:53,710 intersection of the chinese community and 190 00:07:53,710 --> 00:07:55,490 Christianity, it often can be especially 191 00:07:55,490 --> 00:07:56,886 difficult to address some of these things. 192 00:07:56,886 --> 00:08:00,486 So I know I'm imagining people sitting at 193 00:08:00,486 --> 00:08:03,062 these roundtables for Lunar New Year 194 00:08:03,062 --> 00:08:05,606 having delicious food with their families, 195 00:08:05,606 --> 00:08:07,666 and maybe somebody at that table has 196 00:08:07,666 --> 00:08:08,986 experienced something really hard, and 197 00:08:08,986 --> 00:08:11,946 they don't know how to talk about it. How 198 00:08:11,946 --> 00:08:15,260 is that part of your know, significant for 199 00:08:15,260 --> 00:08:18,106 you? Yeah, I think that's true, because, 200 00:08:18,106 --> 00:08:21,146 of course, Lunar New Year is in Asia, much 201 00:08:21,146 --> 00:08:22,778 like Christmas might be in the west. It's 202 00:08:22,778 --> 00:08:24,874 a really big festival of the year where 203 00:08:24,874 --> 00:08:26,254 people get a whole week off work, and 204 00:08:26,254 --> 00:08:28,126 people often travel long distances to go 205 00:08:28,126 --> 00:08:30,046 and reunite with their families. And so I 206 00:08:30,046 --> 00:08:31,694 think you raise a really good point in 207 00:08:31,694 --> 00:08:33,758 that sexual assault survivors who have 208 00:08:33,758 --> 00:08:35,406 been triggered by their experiences or 209 00:08:35,406 --> 00:08:36,858 might be holding a secret that they 210 00:08:36,858 --> 00:08:38,794 haven't told their families, it is a 211 00:08:38,794 --> 00:08:40,366 particularly hard time of the year in the 212 00:08:40,366 --> 00:08:42,430 way that Christmas might be in the west, 213 00:08:42,430 --> 00:08:44,494 because there is a lot of social pressure 214 00:08:44,494 --> 00:08:48,054 to be united, to form a family front, to 215 00:08:48,054 --> 00:08:50,326 make your family proud. And I think a lot 216 00:08:50,326 --> 00:08:53,478 of chinese culture is, at the end of the 217 00:08:53,478 --> 00:08:55,778 day, a communal culture, in the sense that 218 00:08:55,778 --> 00:08:57,686 it's a collectivist culture, I should say, 219 00:08:57,686 --> 00:08:59,766 in the sense that it is very much imbued 220 00:08:59,766 --> 00:09:01,674 on you when you are young, that you are 221 00:09:01,674 --> 00:09:03,786 part of a larger family group, not just 222 00:09:03,786 --> 00:09:05,914 your own biological family, actually, but 223 00:09:05,914 --> 00:09:08,634 even your whole race, as in the idea of 224 00:09:08,634 --> 00:09:10,106 calling anyone from a chinese background 225 00:09:10,106 --> 00:09:12,086 an auntie or an uncle, an older person an 226 00:09:12,086 --> 00:09:14,022 auntie or an uncle, or calling younger 227 00:09:14,022 --> 00:09:16,174 children little brother and little sister, 228 00:09:16,174 --> 00:09:18,062 that idea that we all belong to one 229 00:09:18,062 --> 00:09:20,682 another and we're all interconnected and 230 00:09:20,682 --> 00:09:22,126 interrelated. And so that brings me on to 231 00:09:22,126 --> 00:09:25,486 the point that when a sexual assault takes 232 00:09:25,486 --> 00:09:27,706 place, it is not just damaging for the 233 00:09:27,706 --> 00:09:29,890 survivor, but is damaging for their entire 234 00:09:29,890 --> 00:09:31,778 community, their immediate family, for 235 00:09:31,778 --> 00:09:34,430 sure, their wider family. It may create a 236 00:09:34,430 --> 00:09:35,986 rift in the sense that they're not willing 237 00:09:35,986 --> 00:09:38,066 to speak about it. They might change a lot 238 00:09:38,066 --> 00:09:39,606 in terms of the person that they are. They 239 00:09:39,606 --> 00:09:41,654 might become depressed. They might not be 240 00:09:41,654 --> 00:09:44,102 able to function in the way that they used 241 00:09:44,102 --> 00:09:46,418 to. They may become withdrawn from 242 00:09:46,418 --> 00:09:47,910 relationships. So I think it is really 243 00:09:47,910 --> 00:09:50,426 important to see sexual assault survival 244 00:09:50,426 --> 00:09:53,334 not just in the context of supporting 245 00:09:53,334 --> 00:09:55,510 survivors themselves as individuals to 246 00:09:55,510 --> 00:09:57,066 whom. Who have been through a traumatic 247 00:09:57,066 --> 00:09:59,354 and heinous experience, but to think about 248 00:09:59,354 --> 00:10:01,146 that in the situation of the culture and 249 00:10:01,146 --> 00:10:03,546 the community and the family, the wider 250 00:10:03,546 --> 00:10:05,866 family in which they sit, whether that's a 251 00:10:05,866 --> 00:10:07,518 church family, a biological family, or. 252 00:10:07,518 --> 00:10:09,386 There are many different ways of 253 00:10:09,386 --> 00:10:11,322 interpreting the word family, but I always 254 00:10:11,322 --> 00:10:14,050 prefer to use the broadest possible 255 00:10:14,050 --> 00:10:17,650 interpretation. Yeah, no, it's really 256 00:10:17,650 --> 00:10:19,838 helpful. I know that a lot of people 257 00:10:19,838 --> 00:10:22,062 listening to this are already just feeling 258 00:10:22,062 --> 00:10:24,174 understood and seen and heard just by you. 259 00:10:24,174 --> 00:10:27,746 Sharing that. It can be very lonely for 260 00:10:27,746 --> 00:10:29,746 abuse survivors of any kind and sexual 261 00:10:29,746 --> 00:10:32,326 assault survivors in particular. And I 262 00:10:32,326 --> 00:10:34,086 know when the hashtag me too movement was 263 00:10:34,086 --> 00:10:37,598 sort of gaining momentum. You, 264 00:10:37,598 --> 00:10:40,746 unfortunately, are someone who. You have 265 00:10:40,746 --> 00:10:44,714 an experience, a devastating experience 266 00:10:44,714 --> 00:10:47,190 that you have survived and you are 267 00:10:47,190 --> 00:10:49,546 surviving. But making the decision to 268 00:10:49,546 --> 00:10:51,754 speak that out loud publicly is a whole 269 00:10:51,754 --> 00:10:53,566 other ballgame for people. So it's one 270 00:10:53,566 --> 00:10:55,706 thing to share with your family around the 271 00:10:55,706 --> 00:10:58,590 dinner table, Lunar New Year's celebration 272 00:10:58,590 --> 00:11:01,086 or privately with your mom, maybe. But to 273 00:11:01,086 --> 00:11:02,670 come out very publicly the way that you 274 00:11:02,670 --> 00:11:04,894 did is a very courageous and inspiring 275 00:11:04,894 --> 00:11:06,482 act. And I know that you've made such a 276 00:11:06,482 --> 00:11:08,958 difference in so many people's lives. But 277 00:11:08,958 --> 00:11:10,274 I'd love for you to share a little bit 278 00:11:10,274 --> 00:11:12,546 about your decision, the journey leading 279 00:11:12,546 --> 00:11:14,978 up to that decision of speaking out 280 00:11:14,978 --> 00:11:18,686 against Harvey Weinstein. Yes. Yes. And 281 00:11:18,686 --> 00:11:20,086 forgive me in advance because this answer 282 00:11:20,086 --> 00:11:22,038 may be a bit long. But I wanted to speak 283 00:11:22,038 --> 00:11:24,374 to those of you that weren't necessarily 284 00:11:24,374 --> 00:11:26,742 as familiar with my story. So I wanted to 285 00:11:26,742 --> 00:11:28,566 offer some by way of background. I wanted 286 00:11:28,566 --> 00:11:31,654 to say the bare facts were that I was 24 287 00:11:31,654 --> 00:11:33,386 years old at the time when I went to work 288 00:11:33,386 --> 00:11:35,674 for Harvey Weinstein and Miramax films. 289 00:11:35,674 --> 00:11:37,846 And within a few weeks, actually, of my 290 00:11:37,846 --> 00:11:39,446 employment there, I had traveled with 291 00:11:39,446 --> 00:11:41,350 Harvey Weinstein to the Venice Film 292 00:11:41,350 --> 00:11:43,926 Festival along with another young british 293 00:11:43,926 --> 00:11:46,174 assistant. I was 24 at the time. She was 294 00:11:46,174 --> 00:11:49,054 25 at the time. I was assaulted in a hotel 295 00:11:49,054 --> 00:11:51,902 room by Harvey Weinstein where we were 296 00:11:51,902 --> 00:11:53,770 working as part of the Venice Film 297 00:11:53,770 --> 00:11:55,694 festival. I reported the assault 298 00:11:55,694 --> 00:11:57,314 immediately to my superior, who was this 299 00:11:57,314 --> 00:11:59,090 young woman who's only a year older than 300 00:11:59,090 --> 00:12:02,654 me. Her name's Zelda Perkins. She reacted 301 00:12:02,654 --> 00:12:04,642 immediately. She both confronted Harvey 302 00:12:04,642 --> 00:12:06,466 and made sure that I wasn't in a room with 303 00:12:06,466 --> 00:12:08,566 him again. And actually, when we went back 304 00:12:08,566 --> 00:12:10,934 to London, we took matters further in the 305 00:12:10,934 --> 00:12:12,946 sense that we invoked constructive 306 00:12:12,946 --> 00:12:15,186 dismissal. We resigned from our jobs. We 307 00:12:15,186 --> 00:12:17,042 attempted to report Harvey first 308 00:12:17,042 --> 00:12:19,894 internally to HR within Miramax and then 309 00:12:19,894 --> 00:12:22,266 externally to the police. We lawyered up 310 00:12:22,266 --> 00:12:24,486 and we were forced into signing a 311 00:12:24,486 --> 00:12:26,134 nondisclosure agreement which then 312 00:12:26,134 --> 00:12:29,420 silenced the two of us for a period of 20 313 00:12:29,420 --> 00:12:33,674 years. And in those 20 years, we were not 314 00:12:33,674 --> 00:12:36,078 permitted to talk to our friends, our 315 00:12:36,078 --> 00:12:38,970 family, doctors, lawyers, church 316 00:12:38,970 --> 00:12:40,958 ministers, therapists. There's a very long 317 00:12:40,958 --> 00:12:42,414 list of professionals that we could not 318 00:12:42,414 --> 00:12:44,254 speak to and nor could we speak to anyone 319 00:12:44,254 --> 00:12:46,046 within our own private lives. So I refer 320 00:12:46,046 --> 00:12:48,638 to that period of time as 20 years of 321 00:12:48,638 --> 00:12:50,306 silence. For those who are familiar with 322 00:12:50,306 --> 00:12:52,946 my story, you'll know that in 2017, the 323 00:12:52,946 --> 00:12:55,522 New York Times came to my doorstep and 324 00:12:55,522 --> 00:12:58,798 actually broke my story to my husband in a 325 00:12:58,798 --> 00:13:01,942 non consensual way. I had not agreed to 326 00:13:01,942 --> 00:13:04,198 speak to my husband about it, or in fact, 327 00:13:04,198 --> 00:13:06,166 I was legally obligated, I would say, not 328 00:13:06,166 --> 00:13:08,214 to speak to my husband about it. So that 329 00:13:08,214 --> 00:13:12,186 was quite a story. I actually was willing 330 00:13:12,186 --> 00:13:14,662 for my story to be passed with the 331 00:13:14,662 --> 00:13:16,106 investigation, but I didn't want my name 332 00:13:16,106 --> 00:13:18,742 to be in public. And I think there are 333 00:13:18,742 --> 00:13:20,506 complicated and myriad reasons why that 334 00:13:20,506 --> 00:13:23,498 was true. At that time, my parents didn't 335 00:13:23,498 --> 00:13:25,774 know of my story. My sister didn't know of 336 00:13:25,774 --> 00:13:28,394 my story. A lot of my close friends from 337 00:13:28,394 --> 00:13:30,542 university and my early work days who were 338 00:13:30,542 --> 00:13:32,378 around in the 1990s when I worked for 339 00:13:32,378 --> 00:13:34,302 Harvey Weinstein, didn't know of the 340 00:13:34,302 --> 00:13:36,482 story. And I felt they might be hurt. I 341 00:13:36,482 --> 00:13:38,914 think they would feel that I didn't trust 342 00:13:38,914 --> 00:13:40,594 them at the time, and I didn't tell them 343 00:13:40,594 --> 00:13:43,758 what happened. And so I think it's an 344 00:13:43,758 --> 00:13:46,414 undoing and an unraveling of a real 345 00:13:46,414 --> 00:13:48,386 network of relationships in your life. And 346 00:13:48,386 --> 00:13:51,346 when you drop a truth bomb like this, you 347 00:13:51,346 --> 00:13:53,606 don't know how far that unraveling is 348 00:13:53,606 --> 00:13:55,586 going to go. So when I say that the 349 00:13:55,586 --> 00:13:57,026 reasons for not speaking out can 350 00:13:57,026 --> 00:13:59,506 frequently be complicated in myriad, 351 00:13:59,506 --> 00:14:02,258 there's sort of no end to that unraveling. 352 00:14:02,258 --> 00:14:05,238 What I know is that a story like this, 353 00:14:05,238 --> 00:14:06,954 it's like a genie coming out of a bottle. 354 00:14:06,954 --> 00:14:08,986 Once you uncork the bottle, you can't 355 00:14:08,986 --> 00:14:11,114 really get the genie back in. And so that 356 00:14:11,114 --> 00:14:13,358 is a lot of what made me think for two 357 00:14:13,358 --> 00:14:15,950 years before I really went public. And I 358 00:14:15,950 --> 00:14:18,302 think you're right to draw a distinction 359 00:14:18,302 --> 00:14:21,214 between the private trauma of telling your 360 00:14:21,214 --> 00:14:22,894 close network of friends and family and 361 00:14:22,894 --> 00:14:24,910 the public trauma of talking about 362 00:14:24,910 --> 00:14:27,134 something extremely triggering on a very 363 00:14:27,134 --> 00:14:29,266 wide platform. For example, the first time 364 00:14:29,266 --> 00:14:30,946 that I spoke about this story, it was in 365 00:14:30,946 --> 00:14:33,006 front of 4 million viewers live on 366 00:14:33,006 --> 00:14:35,186 breakfast television at the NBC Today 367 00:14:35,186 --> 00:14:37,918 show. And that is a form of trauma also, 368 00:14:37,918 --> 00:14:40,390 to take something that's so private and so 369 00:14:40,390 --> 00:14:42,182 difficult and to speak about it in a 370 00:14:42,182 --> 00:14:44,358 public platform. But it is a very 371 00:14:44,358 --> 00:14:47,394 different trauma from having to tell your 372 00:14:47,394 --> 00:14:50,646 parents, who experience perhaps their 373 00:14:50,646 --> 00:14:52,634 disbelief, perhaps their hurt, perhaps 374 00:14:52,634 --> 00:14:56,394 their anger, I don't think you quite know 375 00:14:56,394 --> 00:14:58,474 what reaction is going to come out. But I 376 00:14:58,474 --> 00:15:01,146 think that when you are speaking to people 377 00:15:01,146 --> 00:15:03,766 that you care about and you want them to 378 00:15:03,766 --> 00:15:06,366 be well and to have a good relationship 379 00:15:06,366 --> 00:15:08,922 with you, I think it's a different kind of 380 00:15:08,922 --> 00:15:11,166 trauma from going public. I wouldn't say 381 00:15:11,166 --> 00:15:12,986 that one is worse than the other. I think 382 00:15:12,986 --> 00:15:15,694 they're both really difficult. But I know 383 00:15:15,694 --> 00:15:17,486 that with these types of podcasts, when we 384 00:15:17,486 --> 00:15:18,578 talk about this kind of subject, there are 385 00:15:18,578 --> 00:15:20,434 a lot of people listening who haven't 386 00:15:20,434 --> 00:15:21,666 talked to their parents, who haven't 387 00:15:21,666 --> 00:15:23,346 talked to their siblings, who haven't 388 00:15:23,346 --> 00:15:25,006 talked to their colleagues at work, who 389 00:15:25,006 --> 00:15:26,658 haven't talked to their church minister or 390 00:15:26,658 --> 00:15:29,126 anyone in their life that they trust. And 391 00:15:29,126 --> 00:15:32,326 I think, therefore, that the message that 392 00:15:32,326 --> 00:15:35,126 it is difficult but it can be done and it 393 00:15:35,126 --> 00:15:37,286 can be overcome was something that was 394 00:15:37,286 --> 00:15:39,274 really important to me during the two 395 00:15:39,274 --> 00:15:41,162 years when I was thinking about speaking 396 00:15:41,162 --> 00:15:45,834 out and coming up with the resolution to 397 00:15:45,834 --> 00:15:51,994 do so. Yeah, everybody's story is so 398 00:15:51,994 --> 00:15:56,442 unique. And so even with all of the Harvey 399 00:15:56,442 --> 00:15:58,334 Weinstein survivor victim survivors. 400 00:15:58,334 --> 00:15:59,934 Right. Everybody has such a unique part of 401 00:15:59,934 --> 00:16:02,414 it, and your particular story is unique to 402 00:16:02,414 --> 00:16:05,106 you and how it came out and having the NDA 403 00:16:05,106 --> 00:16:07,618 and all of those things and having such a 404 00:16:07,618 --> 00:16:10,194 public figure with so much influence is 405 00:16:10,194 --> 00:16:12,562 also a whole other ballgame for people. 406 00:16:12,562 --> 00:16:15,826 And so the impacts on our personal lives 407 00:16:15,826 --> 00:16:17,910 and our professional lives are 408 00:16:17,910 --> 00:16:20,534 significant. As you look back on it, on 409 00:16:20,534 --> 00:16:22,854 this end of history, looking back on the 410 00:16:22,854 --> 00:16:26,614 last few years and how it's all know, how 411 00:16:26,614 --> 00:16:28,262 has the coming forward and sharing your 412 00:16:28,262 --> 00:16:30,570 story really impacted you personally and 413 00:16:30,570 --> 00:16:34,266 professionally? Well, I often think back 414 00:16:34,266 --> 00:16:36,406 to my friend and neighbor, Dr. Christine 415 00:16:36,406 --> 00:16:37,946 Blasey Ford. I think there's not a woman 416 00:16:37,946 --> 00:16:39,958 in America that has not heard of Dr. 417 00:16:39,958 --> 00:16:42,214 Ford's story and her courage in going to 418 00:16:42,214 --> 00:16:44,130 Congress and speaking up against Brett 419 00:16:44,130 --> 00:16:45,998 Kavanaugh. But the reason why, in answer 420 00:16:45,998 --> 00:16:48,526 to your question, I think about her is she 421 00:16:48,526 --> 00:16:51,754 was alone in what she did. I think know, I 422 00:16:51,754 --> 00:16:53,786 hesitate to use the word privilege with 423 00:16:53,786 --> 00:16:55,306 Weinstein survivors because obviously no 424 00:16:55,306 --> 00:16:56,866 woman in the world should ever have to be 425 00:16:56,866 --> 00:16:59,186 a sexual assault survivor. And so I think 426 00:16:59,186 --> 00:17:01,666 it hurts me to use that word in response 427 00:17:01,666 --> 00:17:04,514 to them. But there was a benefit that we 428 00:17:04,514 --> 00:17:06,562 had that she didn't have, which is that a 429 00:17:06,562 --> 00:17:08,680 number of women came forward in this 430 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,430 story. Now, that also speaks to another 431 00:17:11,430 --> 00:17:13,654 social problem, which is the question of 432 00:17:13,654 --> 00:17:16,678 why does it take almost 100 women to speak 433 00:17:16,678 --> 00:17:19,446 a certain truth against one man before 434 00:17:19,446 --> 00:17:22,186 they can be believed. This is the idea 435 00:17:22,186 --> 00:17:24,794 that women's stories are not centered and 436 00:17:24,794 --> 00:17:26,986 not believed and not credible in the way 437 00:17:26,986 --> 00:17:29,126 that men's stories are. If you look at the 438 00:17:29,126 --> 00:17:31,082 legal system and you look at public policy 439 00:17:31,082 --> 00:17:34,026 around sexual assault, clearly the burden 440 00:17:34,026 --> 00:17:36,686 falls upon the survivor victim to prove 441 00:17:36,686 --> 00:17:38,654 that there was intent, to prove that there 442 00:17:38,654 --> 00:17:40,382 was penetration to prove that there was an 443 00:17:40,382 --> 00:17:42,586 actual assault, whereas often the 444 00:17:42,586 --> 00:17:44,458 perpetrator is innocent until proven 445 00:17:44,458 --> 00:17:46,626 guilty. So I think that is a problem both 446 00:17:46,626 --> 00:17:48,946 in all of it, in our culture, in our law, 447 00:17:48,946 --> 00:17:51,090 in our society, in our public policy 448 00:17:51,090 --> 00:17:56,882 around sexual assault. But I think that 449 00:17:56,882 --> 00:17:59,126 the fact that other women were able to 450 00:17:59,126 --> 00:18:02,370 speak out at the same time did give us a 451 00:18:02,370 --> 00:18:03,878 credibility and an encourage that it would 452 00:18:03,878 --> 00:18:06,262 have been really hard in situations where 453 00:18:06,262 --> 00:18:11,094 women are frequently the only one. I have 454 00:18:11,094 --> 00:18:13,478 drawn a lot of strength from my fellow 455 00:18:13,478 --> 00:18:15,962 survivors. Not only did we speak out 456 00:18:15,962 --> 00:18:18,006 together, and that's how the too movement 457 00:18:18,006 --> 00:18:21,374 evolved. It's a story of courage and joy 458 00:18:21,374 --> 00:18:24,670 in that many women united to speak 459 00:18:24,670 --> 00:18:26,702 together, not just the survivors, but 460 00:18:26,702 --> 00:18:28,222 obviously the journalists that broke our 461 00:18:28,222 --> 00:18:30,960 story. Jody Canto and Megan Tui were also 462 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:35,946 women. Their editor was also a woman. The 463 00:18:35,946 --> 00:18:37,774 folks at Universal Studios that made the 464 00:18:37,774 --> 00:18:39,998 movie, she said it was directed by woman, 465 00:18:39,998 --> 00:18:42,194 written by woman, produced by woman. So 466 00:18:42,194 --> 00:18:43,998 many different aspects of the metoo 467 00:18:43,998 --> 00:18:46,046 movement. It's a story of women coming 468 00:18:46,046 --> 00:18:48,246 together, and that is a story of strength. 469 00:18:48,246 --> 00:18:51,330 It is a story also of indictment against 470 00:18:51,330 --> 00:18:53,542 society that it takes this many women 471 00:18:53,542 --> 00:18:56,310 coming together for a story to be 472 00:18:56,310 --> 00:19:02,694 believed. Yes, this is a big soapbox of 473 00:19:02,694 --> 00:19:05,882 mine, too. It's not the same standards, 474 00:19:05,882 --> 00:19:08,038 right. For women. It's not the same 475 00:19:08,038 --> 00:19:11,562 standards for somebody who's in power and 476 00:19:11,562 --> 00:19:13,934 somebody who is a subordinate. The playing 477 00:19:13,934 --> 00:19:16,974 field is certainly not level. And so it's 478 00:19:16,974 --> 00:19:18,954 just something to be mindful of. The power 479 00:19:18,954 --> 00:19:20,798 dynamics, the social hierarchies involved 480 00:19:20,798 --> 00:19:22,446 in these situations, and then generally 481 00:19:22,446 --> 00:19:25,786 how we view sexual assault as well, and 482 00:19:25,786 --> 00:19:27,554 sexual harassment. Some of the stories we 483 00:19:27,554 --> 00:19:29,394 tell ourselves, which are always a part of 484 00:19:29,394 --> 00:19:31,630 what people are coming into with their 485 00:19:31,630 --> 00:19:34,866 filters. Right. I'd love to ask you this. 486 00:19:34,866 --> 00:19:36,854 What are some ways you feel the hashtag me 487 00:19:36,854 --> 00:19:39,254 too movement has changed the conversation 488 00:19:39,254 --> 00:19:41,238 around sexual harassment and assault in 489 00:19:41,238 --> 00:19:45,862 the workplace. Well, I wrote a long time 490 00:19:45,862 --> 00:19:47,430 ago when I first went public with my 491 00:19:47,430 --> 00:19:49,174 story, I wrote about the idea that there 492 00:19:49,174 --> 00:19:51,318 were four power dynamics. And I think one 493 00:19:51,318 --> 00:19:53,834 of the things that me, too, has done from 494 00:19:53,834 --> 00:19:55,978 those early days is sort of lift the lid 495 00:19:55,978 --> 00:19:58,230 on the idea that there are these power 496 00:19:58,230 --> 00:20:00,330 dynamics. At that time, I had written 497 00:20:00,330 --> 00:20:01,994 about being asian, going up against 498 00:20:01,994 --> 00:20:04,026 somebody who's white, being a woman, and 499 00:20:04,026 --> 00:20:05,982 going up against someone who's a man, 500 00:20:05,982 --> 00:20:08,026 being a person of no consequence. I was a 501 00:20:08,026 --> 00:20:10,206 mere assistant in a company where I was 502 00:20:10,206 --> 00:20:12,366 going up against a CEO, but not just a CEO 503 00:20:12,366 --> 00:20:15,006 of any company. A CEO who is world famous 504 00:20:15,006 --> 00:20:17,246 and has a lot of power and is friends with 505 00:20:17,246 --> 00:20:20,034 presidents and newspaper editors and many 506 00:20:20,034 --> 00:20:22,354 men of influence in various spheres. And 507 00:20:22,354 --> 00:20:24,674 then the last dynamic that I talked about 508 00:20:24,674 --> 00:20:26,466 is really going up against an opponent who 509 00:20:26,466 --> 00:20:28,354 has unlimited amounts of money and, in 510 00:20:28,354 --> 00:20:30,326 fact, had to pay off our lawyers because 511 00:20:30,326 --> 00:20:32,278 we were not able to pay them ourselves. So 512 00:20:32,278 --> 00:20:34,470 I think, although the money dynamic is not 513 00:20:34,470 --> 00:20:37,334 something, it frequently ties into the 514 00:20:37,334 --> 00:20:39,238 power dynamic in the sense of status, and 515 00:20:39,238 --> 00:20:40,994 I think it is something that we need to 516 00:20:40,994 --> 00:20:42,906 explicitly call out as well. So, to go 517 00:20:42,906 --> 00:20:44,742 back to your question, I think the metoo 518 00:20:44,742 --> 00:20:46,534 movement did, right from the beginning, 519 00:20:46,534 --> 00:20:48,870 lift the lid on this idea of power 520 00:20:48,870 --> 00:20:51,174 dynamics that we all knew about, but I 521 00:20:51,174 --> 00:20:54,586 think wasn't really teased out and 522 00:20:54,586 --> 00:20:57,642 explicitly spoken about in the common 523 00:20:57,642 --> 00:20:59,646 parlance, in societal structure in the way 524 00:20:59,646 --> 00:21:02,138 that it is now. So it has given us an 525 00:21:02,138 --> 00:21:04,946 opening to talk about these inequalities, 526 00:21:04,946 --> 00:21:07,790 to talk about this oppression, to have it 527 00:21:07,790 --> 00:21:11,074 accepted rather than denied. However, you 528 00:21:11,074 --> 00:21:13,198 knew there was a however in there, right? 529 00:21:13,198 --> 00:21:17,106 That's only the first step. I acknowledge 530 00:21:17,106 --> 00:21:18,758 the work that the movement has done to 531 00:21:18,758 --> 00:21:21,042 kind of lift the lid and bring these 532 00:21:21,042 --> 00:21:22,918 conversations into public discourse, and I 533 00:21:22,918 --> 00:21:25,110 think it's done a tremendous thing. 534 00:21:25,110 --> 00:21:27,382 However, I think the opportunity that we 535 00:21:27,382 --> 00:21:29,522 now have, now that these conversations are 536 00:21:29,522 --> 00:21:31,014 acknowledged, that this inequality is 537 00:21:31,014 --> 00:21:33,194 there, that we know about it, that we talk 538 00:21:33,194 --> 00:21:35,242 about it, I think this is where the hard 539 00:21:35,242 --> 00:21:37,594 work starts. Are we really going to be 540 00:21:37,594 --> 00:21:40,742 able to change law and policy and 541 00:21:40,742 --> 00:21:43,386 workplace practices in a way that benefits 542 00:21:43,386 --> 00:21:45,498 the oppressed, that creates a more level 543 00:21:45,498 --> 00:21:47,854 playing field, that brings true equity 544 00:21:47,854 --> 00:21:50,462 into the system? I honestly don't know the 545 00:21:50,462 --> 00:21:52,762 answer to that. I do a lot of work around 546 00:21:52,762 --> 00:21:54,954 activism and advocacy. I go into law 547 00:21:54,954 --> 00:21:56,926 courts, I go into state houses, and so on 548 00:21:56,926 --> 00:21:59,186 and so forth. But far from thinking that 549 00:21:59,186 --> 00:22:00,882 the meToo movement was a thing that 550 00:22:00,882 --> 00:22:03,074 started in 2017, a social movement, and 551 00:22:03,074 --> 00:22:05,374 now it's over because Harvey's in jail and 552 00:22:05,374 --> 00:22:07,454 we've done the work, I think the meToo 553 00:22:07,454 --> 00:22:08,834 movement really was the beginning. It 554 00:22:08,834 --> 00:22:11,158 gives us an opportunity to do the real 555 00:22:11,158 --> 00:22:13,206 work, but it really was only the opening 556 00:22:13,206 --> 00:22:15,526 of the door. We still have to step through 557 00:22:15,526 --> 00:22:18,570 the door into the room and do that really 558 00:22:18,570 --> 00:22:22,214 hard work as a society of looking at our 559 00:22:22,214 --> 00:22:24,550 systems, understanding systematic 560 00:22:24,550 --> 00:22:27,242 oppression, whether that's race, misogyny 561 00:22:27,242 --> 00:22:29,306 on a gender spectrum, or some other form 562 00:22:29,306 --> 00:22:31,386 of oppression, wealth, that's another one 563 00:22:31,386 --> 00:22:34,134 as well. And look at how are we going to 564 00:22:34,134 --> 00:22:36,206 dismantle these systems of oppression so 565 00:22:36,206 --> 00:22:38,846 that we can have a more equal world for 566 00:22:38,846 --> 00:22:40,766 those of us of color, for those of us who 567 00:22:40,766 --> 00:22:43,074 are women, for those of us who do not have 568 00:22:43,074 --> 00:22:46,078 access to finance or a platform or 569 00:22:46,078 --> 00:22:48,434 language or legal right of abode or any 570 00:22:48,434 --> 00:22:55,020 number of forms of oppression. So true. So 571 00:22:55,020 --> 00:22:58,766 good. I really just learned so much from 572 00:22:58,766 --> 00:23:00,382 your perspective when I hear you talk 573 00:23:00,382 --> 00:23:02,558 about it, because it brings up all kinds 574 00:23:02,558 --> 00:23:05,934 of things. It brings up thoughts around. 575 00:23:05,934 --> 00:23:08,634 For those who've watched the Jeffrey 576 00:23:08,634 --> 00:23:12,722 Epstein, for example, a lot of these men 577 00:23:12,722 --> 00:23:15,874 will find ways to create a system. In his 578 00:23:15,874 --> 00:23:17,794 case, it was this pyramid scheme, which 579 00:23:17,794 --> 00:23:20,562 was so bizarre to think of. That's more of 580 00:23:20,562 --> 00:23:23,734 a business principle. But he built that in 581 00:23:23,734 --> 00:23:26,694 his web of abuse and a sexual assault of 582 00:23:26,694 --> 00:23:29,090 young girls who were from across the 583 00:23:29,090 --> 00:23:32,918 bridge, a community where they didn't have 584 00:23:32,918 --> 00:23:35,382 the same resources. And so he's this very 585 00:23:35,382 --> 00:23:37,494 wealthy man who lives in a mansion, knows 586 00:23:37,494 --> 00:23:40,938 presidents, knows people with a lot of 587 00:23:40,938 --> 00:23:43,974 power. And so just that element of the 588 00:23:43,974 --> 00:23:46,246 wealth, the money, the influence, as 589 00:23:46,246 --> 00:23:50,138 opposed to a little girl who is from this 590 00:23:50,138 --> 00:23:52,238 particular high school, that is not one of 591 00:23:52,238 --> 00:23:53,486 the better ones. And so when you think 592 00:23:53,486 --> 00:23:55,450 about all of those dynamics, they are 593 00:23:55,450 --> 00:23:57,934 significant. And I hope that what you're 594 00:23:57,934 --> 00:23:59,326 doing, the work that so many are doing, is 595 00:23:59,326 --> 00:24:01,166 to help really highlight those, because I 596 00:24:01,166 --> 00:24:02,786 think they're really key parts of it, that 597 00:24:02,786 --> 00:24:04,562 if we miss those, we've missed something 598 00:24:04,562 --> 00:24:07,634 really huge, because one woman's voice 599 00:24:07,634 --> 00:24:09,426 should matter, one little girl's voice 600 00:24:09,426 --> 00:24:11,042 should matter, even if it's up against a 601 00:24:11,042 --> 00:24:13,762 man who knows presidents and has a lot of 602 00:24:13,762 --> 00:24:15,718 influence. So I guess my question for you 603 00:24:15,718 --> 00:24:19,586 now is we see a lot of the narratives 604 00:24:19,586 --> 00:24:21,714 centering the abuser. So there's the 605 00:24:21,714 --> 00:24:25,062 documentary about Jeffrey Epstein. Right? 606 00:24:25,062 --> 00:24:27,846 And then know people know about Harvey 607 00:24:27,846 --> 00:24:29,498 Weinstein. And it's like we put even all 608 00:24:29,498 --> 00:24:31,702 the victim survivors sometimes in this 609 00:24:31,702 --> 00:24:34,214 monolith. Right. But how can we be more 610 00:24:34,214 --> 00:24:37,290 survivor centered as we approach this? 611 00:24:37,290 --> 00:24:39,014 Yeah, I think it's a really critical 612 00:24:39,014 --> 00:24:40,506 question, and I want to start by 613 00:24:40,506 --> 00:24:42,922 addressing the points you made about media 614 00:24:42,922 --> 00:24:44,526 representation. You are absolutely right 615 00:24:44,526 --> 00:24:46,378 that the documentaries are always 616 00:24:46,378 --> 00:24:48,538 surviving Harvey Weinstein or surviving R. 617 00:24:48,538 --> 00:24:51,122 Kelly or the Harvey Weinstein scandal. 618 00:24:51,122 --> 00:24:53,758 Actually, the law case, the media case, 619 00:24:53,758 --> 00:24:55,986 it's actually named after the perpetrator. 620 00:24:55,986 --> 00:24:58,638 And you rarely have heard of Romina Chu or 621 00:24:58,638 --> 00:25:01,294 Zelda Perkins or how many Epstein 622 00:25:01,294 --> 00:25:02,754 survivors can you actually rattle off by 623 00:25:02,754 --> 00:25:04,558 name? How many R. Kelly survivors can you 624 00:25:04,558 --> 00:25:06,678 rattle off by name? It is true that the 625 00:25:06,678 --> 00:25:08,374 media platforms the perpetrator, and 626 00:25:08,374 --> 00:25:09,926 actually, when you look at that and you 627 00:25:09,926 --> 00:25:11,526 begin to pick it apart, it is actually 628 00:25:11,526 --> 00:25:13,974 kind of shocking. I think it springs from 629 00:25:13,974 --> 00:25:16,546 the idea that often the perpetrator is a 630 00:25:16,546 --> 00:25:19,478 person in power. He's a person he, because 631 00:25:19,478 --> 00:25:21,526 it's usually a he, but he's a person who 632 00:25:21,526 --> 00:25:22,886 controls the narrative that's always 633 00:25:22,886 --> 00:25:25,978 driven the narrative, that gets to tell 634 00:25:25,978 --> 00:25:27,882 the lawyers and the police his side of the 635 00:25:27,882 --> 00:25:29,418 story, gets to tell the media his side of 636 00:25:29,418 --> 00:25:31,134 the story. And I think it goes a long way 637 00:25:31,134 --> 00:25:33,806 to explaining why. A, it's very difficult 638 00:25:33,806 --> 00:25:35,534 for sexual assault survivors to speak 639 00:25:35,534 --> 00:25:38,090 their story at all, either publicly or 640 00:25:38,090 --> 00:25:40,634 privately. B, even if they have the 641 00:25:40,634 --> 00:25:41,986 courage to speak their story, are they 642 00:25:41,986 --> 00:25:44,402 going to be believed? Usually that doesn't 643 00:25:44,402 --> 00:25:47,262 happen. And even if you have surmounted 644 00:25:47,262 --> 00:25:50,274 barriers a and b, c, are you going to be 645 00:25:50,274 --> 00:25:53,222 able to get any kind of legal respite, 646 00:25:53,222 --> 00:25:55,954 public policy respite, financial respite? 647 00:25:55,954 --> 00:25:58,326 Highly unlikely. So when you think about 648 00:25:58,326 --> 00:26:00,818 the number of barriers in front of a 649 00:26:00,818 --> 00:26:03,414 survivor, in terms of what is there really 650 00:26:03,414 --> 00:26:06,606 to gain other than a situation of 651 00:26:06,606 --> 00:26:08,646 ridicule, you're more likely to be 652 00:26:08,646 --> 00:26:10,198 blacklisted from your career. You're more 653 00:26:10,198 --> 00:26:12,138 likely to be retaliated against. You're 654 00:26:12,138 --> 00:26:15,066 going to be derided as a whistleblower, as 655 00:26:15,066 --> 00:26:17,358 a person of loose morals who's after 656 00:26:17,358 --> 00:26:19,214 money. There are all kinds of ways in 657 00:26:19,214 --> 00:26:22,218 which society continues to oppress and 658 00:26:22,218 --> 00:26:25,242 suppress the survivor's story that go 659 00:26:25,242 --> 00:26:27,166 beyond actually the crimes committed by 660 00:26:27,166 --> 00:26:29,726 the perpetrator. So we're all in some way 661 00:26:29,726 --> 00:26:32,450 complicit. There's a system in society 662 00:26:32,450 --> 00:26:35,426 that suppresses a survivor's voice that is 663 00:26:35,426 --> 00:26:38,130 not survivor centric, that is not trauma 664 00:26:38,130 --> 00:26:40,514 informed. So having made those remarks 665 00:26:40,514 --> 00:26:43,638 about media and the sort of evils of how 666 00:26:43,638 --> 00:26:45,862 media centers a story, let me actually 667 00:26:45,862 --> 00:26:48,086 address your question, which was, how can 668 00:26:48,086 --> 00:26:50,870 we make society and media more survivor 669 00:26:50,870 --> 00:26:55,666 centric? I think that the meToo movement 670 00:26:55,666 --> 00:26:59,674 has made tentative steps in that direction 671 00:26:59,674 --> 00:27:01,926 with she said the book and she said the 672 00:27:01,926 --> 00:27:04,410 movie. It is true that our stories at 673 00:27:04,410 --> 00:27:06,666 least featured. It is true that I'm right 674 00:27:06,666 --> 00:27:08,746 here doing this podcast. It is true that I 675 00:27:08,746 --> 00:27:10,942 got to write an op ed in the New York 676 00:27:10,942 --> 00:27:14,266 Times. So I cannot say that the meeting 677 00:27:14,266 --> 00:27:16,014 didn't move in the right direction in 678 00:27:16,014 --> 00:27:17,674 terms of being survivor centric and 679 00:27:17,674 --> 00:27:20,126 hearing survivor stories. However, I think 680 00:27:20,126 --> 00:27:22,814 it is still staggering that it is much 681 00:27:22,814 --> 00:27:24,738 easier to get a movie greenlit if it has 682 00:27:24,738 --> 00:27:26,402 the name of the perpetrator attached to it 683 00:27:26,402 --> 00:27:29,314 rather than the name of the survivor. To 684 00:27:29,314 --> 00:27:32,750 be honest, this is very much a personal 685 00:27:32,750 --> 00:27:34,854 struggle for me as I've been working for 686 00:27:34,854 --> 00:27:37,014 four years to publish a memoir about my 687 00:27:37,014 --> 00:27:40,242 own experiences. I had written a 688 00:27:40,242 --> 00:27:41,686 screenplay about my experiences of working 689 00:27:41,686 --> 00:27:43,446 for Harvey and on Shakespeare and love, 690 00:27:43,446 --> 00:27:45,062 and it's really difficult to get that 691 00:27:45,062 --> 00:27:48,586 green lit. So I think for me, speaking 692 00:27:48,586 --> 00:27:50,714 from a very personal point of view, not 693 00:27:50,714 --> 00:27:53,110 only do I find my perpetrator very 694 00:27:53,110 --> 00:27:54,854 centered, but I actually also find the 695 00:27:54,854 --> 00:27:56,742 journalists who broke our story very 696 00:27:56,742 --> 00:27:59,286 centered above survivors. So it often 697 00:27:59,286 --> 00:28:00,798 feels to me as though the survivor voice 698 00:28:00,798 --> 00:28:03,246 and the survivor story is sort of last in 699 00:28:03,246 --> 00:28:05,886 a long line of people who might get 700 00:28:05,886 --> 00:28:08,846 platform or visibility or in any way get 701 00:28:08,846 --> 00:28:10,958 to further their careers as a result of 702 00:28:10,958 --> 00:28:12,798 the meToo movement. I think the reasons 703 00:28:12,798 --> 00:28:14,810 for this are actually very complicated. 704 00:28:14,810 --> 00:28:16,146 For instance, when I think about the fact 705 00:28:16,146 --> 00:28:18,002 that she said centered the journalist 706 00:28:18,002 --> 00:28:19,538 story, both book and the movie were from 707 00:28:19,538 --> 00:28:20,706 the journalist's point of view, not from 708 00:28:20,706 --> 00:28:22,626 the survivor's point of view. I actually 709 00:28:22,626 --> 00:28:24,726 have a whole theory around this. I think 710 00:28:24,726 --> 00:28:27,846 it is much easier for the average woman to 711 00:28:27,846 --> 00:28:30,018 want to think of themselves as a Jodie 712 00:28:30,018 --> 00:28:32,066 cantor and a Megan tui. I mean, who 713 00:28:32,066 --> 00:28:34,002 wouldn't? They're wonderful women. They're 714 00:28:34,002 --> 00:28:36,054 incredibly bright. I have really enjoyed 715 00:28:36,054 --> 00:28:38,902 working with them. They are heroes of our 716 00:28:38,902 --> 00:28:40,426 generation. They've won a Pulitzer prize. 717 00:28:40,426 --> 00:28:42,570 They are publicly fetted for what they 718 00:28:42,570 --> 00:28:44,726 did. Their book was a roaring success. The 719 00:28:44,726 --> 00:28:46,842 movie was a roaring success. So I think 720 00:28:46,842 --> 00:28:48,666 that women who are in the audience 721 00:28:48,666 --> 00:28:50,778 watching, they want to identify with Jodie 722 00:28:50,778 --> 00:28:53,722 and Meghan. But I think it gets really 723 00:28:53,722 --> 00:28:55,566 complicated when you ask them, do you want 724 00:28:55,566 --> 00:28:58,286 to identify with Laura Madden, Rowena Chu 725 00:28:58,286 --> 00:29:00,686 and Zelda Perkins, the three victims that 726 00:29:00,686 --> 00:29:03,074 were depicted? And she said, I think there 727 00:29:03,074 --> 00:29:05,218 is rarely a woman, and interestingly, even 728 00:29:05,218 --> 00:29:07,326 a woman who themselves have experienced 729 00:29:07,326 --> 00:29:09,474 sexual assaults, who is willing to come 730 00:29:09,474 --> 00:29:11,534 out publicly and say, yes, I'm a sexual 731 00:29:11,534 --> 00:29:13,698 assault survivor, I want to stand with the 732 00:29:13,698 --> 00:29:15,718 Weinstein survivors. Again, I think a lot 733 00:29:15,718 --> 00:29:20,034 of that is due to society and society's 734 00:29:20,034 --> 00:29:21,574 treatment of sexual assault survivors, but 735 00:29:21,574 --> 00:29:24,178 also their depiction of them, the way that 736 00:29:24,178 --> 00:29:25,766 sexual assault survivors are depicted in 737 00:29:25,766 --> 00:29:28,426 the media, in the press, in stories, the 738 00:29:28,426 --> 00:29:30,426 way that they are spoken of, the way that 739 00:29:30,426 --> 00:29:33,462 they are frequently diminished, negated, 740 00:29:33,462 --> 00:29:35,306 disbelieved, and even a movie like she 741 00:29:35,306 --> 00:29:37,658 said, which is in itself survivor centric, 742 00:29:37,658 --> 00:29:39,870 or at least it calls itself survivor 743 00:29:39,870 --> 00:29:42,654 centric, actually. Look at the characters. 744 00:29:42,654 --> 00:29:44,714 The survivors featured in, she said, are 745 00:29:44,714 --> 00:29:46,634 highly two dimensional. There's no 746 00:29:46,634 --> 00:29:47,886 background to them. We don't understand 747 00:29:47,886 --> 00:29:49,614 their background. We don't understand 748 00:29:49,614 --> 00:29:51,706 their story. We don't understand their 749 00:29:51,706 --> 00:29:53,646 motivations. We don't get to see them with 750 00:29:53,646 --> 00:29:55,858 husbands and kids and babies and dogs in 751 00:29:55,858 --> 00:29:58,194 the park. But the journalists are very 752 00:29:58,194 --> 00:30:00,946 much centered. So this is not a criticism 753 00:30:00,946 --> 00:30:03,254 of, she said, the movie. It is to say, I 754 00:30:03,254 --> 00:30:06,038 think she said, part way, open the door in 755 00:30:06,038 --> 00:30:08,546 the sense that it features survivors 756 00:30:08,546 --> 00:30:11,122 voices. And we're not shadowy, anonymous, 757 00:30:11,122 --> 00:30:13,926 unnamed people. But I think there's still 758 00:30:13,926 --> 00:30:17,302 a long way for media, creativity and 759 00:30:17,302 --> 00:30:20,646 society to go before it really sees sexual 760 00:30:20,646 --> 00:30:22,954 assault survivors as three dimensional 761 00:30:22,954 --> 00:30:25,194 people. And I think the reason for that is 762 00:30:25,194 --> 00:30:27,466 we bring discomfort. It is really hard to 763 00:30:27,466 --> 00:30:29,354 have these conversations. It is really 764 00:30:29,354 --> 00:30:31,418 hard for me to be invited to corporate 765 00:30:31,418 --> 00:30:33,326 workplaces, to churches, to school, and 766 00:30:33,326 --> 00:30:35,326 for me to stand up and tell my story. I am 767 00:30:35,326 --> 00:30:38,334 a figure of discomfort. I bring truths 768 00:30:38,334 --> 00:30:40,302 that people don't really want to listen 769 00:30:40,302 --> 00:30:43,426 to. I think that that isn't really hard. 770 00:30:43,426 --> 00:30:46,670 And I think the work of that is about 771 00:30:46,670 --> 00:30:48,354 generational change. I don't think that I 772 00:30:48,354 --> 00:30:50,446 will see the change I want to see in my 773 00:30:50,446 --> 00:30:52,594 lifetime, but I make these changes so that 774 00:30:52,594 --> 00:30:54,990 my children, I'm tempted to say daughters 775 00:30:54,990 --> 00:30:56,454 and granddaughters, but let's not make 776 00:30:56,454 --> 00:30:59,170 this about gender. That my children and my 777 00:30:59,170 --> 00:31:00,966 grandchildren will have a better world, 778 00:31:00,966 --> 00:31:03,046 one that is more trauma informed, one that 779 00:31:03,046 --> 00:31:05,206 is more survivor centric, one that is 780 00:31:05,206 --> 00:31:08,326 frankly more emotionally aware of these 781 00:31:08,326 --> 00:31:11,046 sorts of stories and a world where 782 00:31:11,046 --> 00:31:18,694 survivors no longer have to hide. I want 783 00:31:18,694 --> 00:31:20,834 that world, and I'm so glad that you're 784 00:31:20,834 --> 00:31:23,654 fighting so hard for it. And I see your 785 00:31:23,654 --> 00:31:25,206 efforts. And I know it's got to be 786 00:31:25,206 --> 00:31:28,538 exhausting at times to have to keep sort 787 00:31:28,538 --> 00:31:30,646 of pushing up against a system that 788 00:31:30,646 --> 00:31:33,326 doesn't want to change. Because I think 789 00:31:33,326 --> 00:31:35,966 the system, it just naturally was made to 790 00:31:35,966 --> 00:31:39,582 center the abusers. And I see this. We 791 00:31:39,582 --> 00:31:44,626 both share a faith. When I see, for 792 00:31:44,626 --> 00:31:48,450 example, pastors who pray upon their 793 00:31:48,450 --> 00:31:51,362 congregations, and because we often see 794 00:31:51,362 --> 00:31:56,414 these patterns, we see people who tend 795 00:31:56,414 --> 00:31:59,430 toward these predatory nature will often 796 00:31:59,430 --> 00:32:02,582 find a job that makes them look like a 797 00:32:02,582 --> 00:32:04,546 good person. So a do gooder. Either 798 00:32:04,546 --> 00:32:07,750 they're producing movies that people love, 799 00:32:07,750 --> 00:32:09,606 or they're a pastor and they've got these 800 00:32:09,606 --> 00:32:12,646 good sermons that sound so great, or 801 00:32:12,646 --> 00:32:14,666 they're a teacher or a karate instructor 802 00:32:14,666 --> 00:32:16,954 or something that looks like they're 803 00:32:16,954 --> 00:32:19,706 giving people good things and it does make 804 00:32:19,706 --> 00:32:21,322 it hard to question them because of their 805 00:32:21,322 --> 00:32:22,966 power. And when you add the spiritual 806 00:32:22,966 --> 00:32:25,120 element to it, it has a whole other 807 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:29,018 situation that happens. And so recently 808 00:32:29,018 --> 00:32:30,942 I've been tweeting quite a bit about this 809 00:32:30,942 --> 00:32:32,926 whole, what I call Preda pastor predators 810 00:32:32,926 --> 00:32:35,998 who are pastors. And it is resonating with 811 00:32:35,998 --> 00:32:37,634 a lot of people because unfortunately, 812 00:32:37,634 --> 00:32:41,806 there are systems like, for example, in a 813 00:32:41,806 --> 00:32:42,946 church where you don't say these things 814 00:32:42,946 --> 00:32:45,426 out loud. But I know that for the industry 815 00:32:45,426 --> 00:32:47,666 you were in, if you want to keep going in 816 00:32:47,666 --> 00:32:49,814 your career, you don't speak out against 817 00:32:49,814 --> 00:32:52,966 this man. He's so powerful, it's damaging 818 00:32:52,966 --> 00:32:55,666 for one's career. So if there's someone 819 00:32:55,666 --> 00:32:57,334 listening right now who's sort of toying 820 00:32:57,334 --> 00:32:59,798 with that whole notion of, do I say 821 00:32:59,798 --> 00:33:01,286 anything because I could lose my career? 822 00:33:01,286 --> 00:33:03,686 Do I say anything because I could lose my 823 00:33:03,686 --> 00:33:05,482 church? I'd love for you to talk to that 824 00:33:05,482 --> 00:33:07,770 person right now and maybe give them your 825 00:33:07,770 --> 00:33:10,006 perspective. Yeah, well, I think what 826 00:33:10,006 --> 00:33:12,290 you're alluding to is this idea of the 827 00:33:12,290 --> 00:33:14,622 pillar of society. I think there's a very 828 00:33:14,622 --> 00:33:17,214 common idea where, as you quite rightly 829 00:33:17,214 --> 00:33:20,734 said, a predator is often in a position of 830 00:33:20,734 --> 00:33:23,966 not just sort of monetary power or status 831 00:33:23,966 --> 00:33:26,142 in terms of a career, but also in terms of 832 00:33:26,142 --> 00:33:28,146 social power, social currency. So they 833 00:33:28,146 --> 00:33:29,666 might be a sports coach, or they might be 834 00:33:29,666 --> 00:33:31,854 a teacher, or they might be a religious 835 00:33:31,854 --> 00:33:34,334 leader. They are in some way embedded in 836 00:33:34,334 --> 00:33:37,486 society such that society cannot believe 837 00:33:37,486 --> 00:33:38,834 terrible things about them, as in, it's 838 00:33:38,834 --> 00:33:40,982 literally impossible for society to 839 00:33:40,982 --> 00:33:43,350 believe terrible things about this good 840 00:33:43,350 --> 00:33:45,442 person. So, for example, when the Russell 841 00:33:45,442 --> 00:33:48,306 brand story broke in the UK, and Elon 842 00:33:48,306 --> 00:33:50,338 Musk's defense of him is, oh, no, but I've 843 00:33:50,338 --> 00:33:51,706 hung out with him, I've had drinks with 844 00:33:51,706 --> 00:33:54,714 him, and he's a good guy. So this idea 845 00:33:54,714 --> 00:33:58,426 that this pillar, it's inconceivable that 846 00:33:58,426 --> 00:34:00,198 this person, like, I know this person. 847 00:34:00,198 --> 00:34:02,698 I've seen them coach basketball. I've seen 848 00:34:02,698 --> 00:34:04,878 them preach in the pulpit. I know them to 849 00:34:04,878 --> 00:34:06,750 be a good person. And so that's really 850 00:34:06,750 --> 00:34:08,334 difficult because it creates, as you say, 851 00:34:08,334 --> 00:34:11,466 this protective shield of credibility and 852 00:34:11,466 --> 00:34:13,486 belief that the victim survivor, who is 853 00:34:13,486 --> 00:34:15,018 not known in this way and does not have 854 00:34:15,018 --> 00:34:17,394 this social currency, frequently, isn't 855 00:34:17,394 --> 00:34:20,398 ever going to perpetrate. So I would say 856 00:34:20,398 --> 00:34:23,234 it's incredibly complicated, what I would 857 00:34:23,234 --> 00:34:25,634 say to those who are listening, who are 858 00:34:25,634 --> 00:34:27,538 trying to go up against someone who's a 859 00:34:27,538 --> 00:34:31,238 pillar of society. Again, I return to the 860 00:34:31,238 --> 00:34:33,266 point that I think the metoo movement has 861 00:34:33,266 --> 00:34:37,906 created the opportunity. But 862 00:34:37,906 --> 00:34:39,730 unfortunately, and I say this with the 863 00:34:39,730 --> 00:34:41,954 greatest of compassion and empathy, 864 00:34:41,954 --> 00:34:43,914 unfortunately, the work still needs to be 865 00:34:43,914 --> 00:34:45,926 done by the victim and the survivor 866 00:34:45,926 --> 00:34:48,006 frequently, which is awful, actually. I 867 00:34:48,006 --> 00:34:49,818 hate to say this. I hesitate to say it. 868 00:34:49,818 --> 00:34:53,126 You can hear the hesitation in my voice. 869 00:34:53,126 --> 00:34:55,934 I'm grieved to be in a world where women 870 00:34:55,934 --> 00:34:57,754 still bear that burden, where the 871 00:34:57,754 --> 00:34:59,726 oppressed still has to rise up and speak 872 00:34:59,726 --> 00:35:02,090 out against the oppressor, that there 873 00:35:02,090 --> 00:35:04,670 isn't systematic system that's better 874 00:35:04,670 --> 00:35:06,986 about supporting survivors before we even 875 00:35:06,986 --> 00:35:09,618 know who they are, and to give them a 876 00:35:09,618 --> 00:35:11,602 platform to speak and protection against 877 00:35:11,602 --> 00:35:13,986 that, and a world where they don't have to 878 00:35:13,986 --> 00:35:16,386 do the hard work. But unfortunately, I 879 00:35:16,386 --> 00:35:18,230 think it's still the case that we as 880 00:35:18,230 --> 00:35:20,806 women, we as survivors still have to do 881 00:35:20,806 --> 00:35:24,486 that work. However, I would say postmeto, 882 00:35:24,486 --> 00:35:27,382 I encourage you to do that. I think we're 883 00:35:27,382 --> 00:35:29,698 finally in an environment where you can be 884 00:35:29,698 --> 00:35:33,434 believed. I think if you are able to find 885 00:35:33,434 --> 00:35:37,194 other voices and other women, no predator 886 00:35:37,194 --> 00:35:39,354 has existed in isolation. I'm sorry to say 887 00:35:39,354 --> 00:35:41,622 this, too agrees me to say this, but 888 00:35:41,622 --> 00:35:44,314 likely your assault will not be in 889 00:35:44,314 --> 00:35:47,002 isolation. It is more than likely that any 890 00:35:47,002 --> 00:35:49,466 predator has a pattern of a predatory 891 00:35:49,466 --> 00:35:51,802 pattern, as in they have more than one 892 00:35:51,802 --> 00:35:54,286 survivor out there and also that the story 893 00:35:54,286 --> 00:35:56,506 is very similar. So if you have been 894 00:35:56,506 --> 00:35:59,122 assaulted by your sports coach, go talk to 895 00:35:59,122 --> 00:36:01,874 anyone he's ever coached, because chances 896 00:36:01,874 --> 00:36:04,002 are you will find other women willing to 897 00:36:04,002 --> 00:36:05,886 speak. And I wish it wasn't like this. I 898 00:36:05,886 --> 00:36:07,774 wish one woman could come forward and be 899 00:36:07,774 --> 00:36:09,506 believed. I wish a woman's voice was equal 900 00:36:09,506 --> 00:36:12,614 to a man's voice. In terms of that, there 901 00:36:12,614 --> 00:36:15,554 was a balance in terms of credibility. But 902 00:36:15,554 --> 00:36:18,038 knowing what we do about society and all 903 00:36:18,038 --> 00:36:19,878 that we've talked about credibility and 904 00:36:19,878 --> 00:36:22,794 the way that society works, my advice is 905 00:36:22,794 --> 00:36:26,506 to go and find allies who share your story 906 00:36:26,506 --> 00:36:29,386 if you possibly can. On the other hand, if 907 00:36:29,386 --> 00:36:31,194 you are Dr. Christine Blasey Ford and you 908 00:36:31,194 --> 00:36:34,494 are completely by yourself, know that when 909 00:36:34,494 --> 00:36:37,450 you do speak out, there will be people 910 00:36:37,450 --> 00:36:39,662 listening and watching who aren't in a 911 00:36:39,662 --> 00:36:42,622 place in their lives to go there yet, but 912 00:36:42,622 --> 00:36:45,402 that you have been an inspiration for 913 00:36:45,402 --> 00:36:47,178 hundreds, thousands, possibly tens of 914 00:36:47,178 --> 00:36:48,626 thousands of women that you'll never meet 915 00:36:48,626 --> 00:36:50,766 and never speak to, but you will have 916 00:36:50,766 --> 00:36:53,326 changed their lives. So if you are in that 917 00:36:53,326 --> 00:36:54,802 horrific position where you have to be the 918 00:36:54,802 --> 00:36:57,218 only person who speaks out, but you are in 919 00:36:57,218 --> 00:36:59,426 a position to be able to do that, know 920 00:36:59,426 --> 00:37:00,982 that you are helping other people, no 921 00:37:00,982 --> 00:37:02,886 matter what kind of blowback you get and 922 00:37:02,886 --> 00:37:04,566 the disbelief and all the rest of that 923 00:37:04,566 --> 00:37:06,966 stuff, the majority of people you help 924 00:37:06,966 --> 00:37:09,498 will be silent and you will never meet 925 00:37:09,498 --> 00:37:11,580 them. But you know that they are out 926 00:37:11,580 --> 00:37:18,426 there. Absolutely. I just know where I was 927 00:37:18,426 --> 00:37:21,126 when I watched what was going on with 928 00:37:21,126 --> 00:37:22,486 Christy and Blaisey Ford. I was in 929 00:37:22,486 --> 00:37:26,154 Singapore, and I remember just how I felt 930 00:37:26,154 --> 00:37:28,634 and how I resonated. I'm not a sexual 931 00:37:28,634 --> 00:37:31,422 assault survivor, but there was something 932 00:37:31,422 --> 00:37:33,774 about being a woman and her speaking that 933 00:37:33,774 --> 00:37:35,998 way that just made such a difference. And 934 00:37:35,998 --> 00:37:40,178 I've met women since then who have had 935 00:37:40,178 --> 00:37:42,574 experience what she experienced and that 936 00:37:42,574 --> 00:37:44,386 she'll never know the difference she made 937 00:37:44,386 --> 00:37:46,754 in people's lives by speaking out. I mean, 938 00:37:46,754 --> 00:37:49,234 the results didn't go the way we wanted 939 00:37:49,234 --> 00:37:52,258 because her abuser is now at the highest 940 00:37:52,258 --> 00:37:54,086 levels of our justice in our nation. But 941 00:37:54,086 --> 00:37:56,406 at the same time, what she did will never 942 00:37:56,406 --> 00:37:58,006 be able to be calculated because I know 943 00:37:58,006 --> 00:38:00,022 that it did resonate with a lot of people. 944 00:38:00,022 --> 00:38:01,878 So every voice really does matter in ways 945 00:38:01,878 --> 00:38:05,100 we'll never know. My last question for you 946 00:38:05,100 --> 00:38:07,786 before we close, and then I'll also have 947 00:38:07,786 --> 00:38:09,606 you on our patreon for our difference 948 00:38:09,606 --> 00:38:11,420 makers for another deeper question there, 949 00:38:11,420 --> 00:38:13,822 but what do you think people don't 950 00:38:13,822 --> 00:38:15,566 understand about survivors that you would 951 00:38:15,566 --> 00:38:21,934 love for them to understand? Wow, that's a 952 00:38:21,934 --> 00:38:25,762 really good one. Or maybe something people 953 00:38:25,762 --> 00:38:28,162 often miss or that you have to kind of 954 00:38:28,162 --> 00:38:31,314 correct or whatever. Yeah, I just think 955 00:38:31,314 --> 00:38:34,050 that there are so many myths about 956 00:38:34,050 --> 00:38:37,634 survivorship that still persist even among 957 00:38:37,634 --> 00:38:39,266 people who are very supportive of the 958 00:38:39,266 --> 00:38:41,266 meeting movement and see themselves as 959 00:38:41,266 --> 00:38:44,806 allies. So you sort of get the regular, 960 00:38:44,806 --> 00:38:46,934 and they're not necessarily critical, but 961 00:38:46,934 --> 00:38:50,054 people will say, oh, well, thank goodness 962 00:38:50,054 --> 00:38:51,946 now you're being financially compensated 963 00:38:51,946 --> 00:38:54,134 for coming up with your story, or thank 964 00:38:54,134 --> 00:38:56,346 goodness that you now have the platform 965 00:38:56,346 --> 00:38:58,086 because having that visibility and that 966 00:38:58,086 --> 00:39:04,406 fame must be comforting. I know that 967 00:39:04,406 --> 00:39:05,466 people are saying these things because 968 00:39:05,466 --> 00:39:07,326 they're intended to be consoling, but in 969 00:39:07,326 --> 00:39:11,902 some ways they're deeply insulting. And I 970 00:39:11,902 --> 00:39:13,166 never quite know how to react because I 971 00:39:13,166 --> 00:39:15,406 know that people mean to be supportive and 972 00:39:15,406 --> 00:39:18,290 they want to sort of find the bright side. 973 00:39:18,290 --> 00:39:20,066 Or as was said to me actually earlier in 974 00:39:20,066 --> 00:39:22,258 an interview today, they'll say things 975 00:39:22,258 --> 00:39:24,286 like, well, thank goodness you left the 976 00:39:24,286 --> 00:39:26,334 film industry, because look how you've 977 00:39:26,334 --> 00:39:28,418 succeeded in other industries. Or they'll 978 00:39:28,418 --> 00:39:31,078 say, well, even though your relationship 979 00:39:31,078 --> 00:39:32,786 at the time was destroyed and you've never 980 00:39:32,786 --> 00:39:34,262 trusted anyone again, but now you have a 981 00:39:34,262 --> 00:39:37,218 beautiful husband and children. And my 982 00:39:37,218 --> 00:39:38,774 husband and children are indeed beautiful 983 00:39:38,774 --> 00:39:41,126 and amazing and truly extraordinary. 984 00:39:41,126 --> 00:39:43,594 That's not to say that they're not, but I 985 00:39:43,594 --> 00:39:46,506 feel that the idea, the myth that one can 986 00:39:46,506 --> 00:39:50,346 use survivor success either in career or 987 00:39:50,346 --> 00:39:53,566 family or in other areas of their life as 988 00:39:53,566 --> 00:39:56,254 a way of saying, well, thank goodness or 989 00:39:56,254 --> 00:39:59,326 take consolation from. I think that's 990 00:39:59,326 --> 00:40:01,566 actually really tricky ground that's not 991 00:40:01,566 --> 00:40:03,178 only just thin ice, that's ice that 992 00:40:03,178 --> 00:40:06,290 doesn't even exist. And so that is 993 00:40:06,290 --> 00:40:08,194 something I feel your original question 994 00:40:08,194 --> 00:40:10,814 was, what do people not understand about 995 00:40:10,814 --> 00:40:13,698 survivors? And I think what I want to say 996 00:40:13,698 --> 00:40:17,266 is sit with survivors, understand their 997 00:40:17,266 --> 00:40:20,834 grief, acknowledge their grief. Don't be 998 00:40:20,834 --> 00:40:23,410 rushing to find the thing that, oh, thank 999 00:40:23,410 --> 00:40:26,034 goodness that. Thank goodness that God was 1000 00:40:26,034 --> 00:40:29,546 merciful and gave you this, because that 1001 00:40:29,546 --> 00:40:32,678 is a negation and a minimization and a 1002 00:40:32,678 --> 00:40:35,850 diminishing of incredible grief and 1003 00:40:35,850 --> 00:40:39,494 trauma. The analogy that I use, and I 1004 00:40:39,494 --> 00:40:41,238 apologize in advance if this analogy is 1005 00:40:41,238 --> 00:40:43,082 triggering to anyone. But I have several 1006 00:40:43,082 --> 00:40:44,734 friends who have literally lived through 1007 00:40:44,734 --> 00:40:47,326 this horrendous nightmare. But I always 1008 00:40:47,326 --> 00:40:50,174 think of the analogy of child bereavement. 1009 00:40:50,174 --> 00:40:52,318 If you end up in a situation where you are 1010 00:40:52,318 --> 00:40:55,214 a parent and you have a young child and 1011 00:40:55,214 --> 00:40:58,962 that child passes, you might go on to have 1012 00:40:58,962 --> 00:41:01,906 other children. But I hope that no one in 1013 00:41:01,906 --> 00:41:03,954 their right mind would ever say to you, 1014 00:41:03,954 --> 00:41:06,434 oh, thank goodness for your new baby, who 1015 00:41:06,434 --> 00:41:08,862 has entirely replaced the baby that 1016 00:41:08,862 --> 00:41:10,818 passed, the baby that had cancer, or the 1017 00:41:10,818 --> 00:41:13,606 baby that was still born. We don't say 1018 00:41:13,606 --> 00:41:16,294 that to bereaved mothers. And so I think 1019 00:41:16,294 --> 00:41:18,614 for survivors, we should not be saying, 1020 00:41:18,614 --> 00:41:20,102 but that's okay because you moved to 1021 00:41:20,102 --> 00:41:21,586 another career, and you were super 1022 00:41:21,586 --> 00:41:23,194 successful in that career, but that's okay 1023 00:41:23,194 --> 00:41:24,778 because you're married today and you have 1024 00:41:24,778 --> 00:41:27,754 beautiful children. I am married today. I 1025 00:41:27,754 --> 00:41:29,994 love my husband. My children are amazing. 1026 00:41:29,994 --> 00:41:32,742 That does not mean what happened to me was 1027 00:41:32,742 --> 00:41:35,146 right. It doesn't mean what happened to me 1028 00:41:35,146 --> 00:41:38,014 didn't cause untold grief and trauma that 1029 00:41:38,014 --> 00:41:41,194 I still sit with today. And that's not an 1030 00:41:41,194 --> 00:41:43,674 indictment against my husband. They're not 1031 00:41:43,674 --> 00:41:45,646 compensation for grief and trauma. One 1032 00:41:45,646 --> 00:41:47,662 doesn't overcome tremendous grief and 1033 00:41:47,662 --> 00:41:50,434 trauma simply because one got married or 1034 00:41:50,434 --> 00:41:52,530 is successful in a career or any other 1035 00:41:52,530 --> 00:41:59,560 form of sort of social success. So, well 1036 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,546 said. And I just really appreciate your 1037 00:42:02,546 --> 00:42:04,230 perspective on that because it helps us 1038 00:42:04,230 --> 00:42:08,486 understand. In a deeper way. I think that 1039 00:42:08,486 --> 00:42:10,886 so many people want just to wrap this up 1040 00:42:10,886 --> 00:42:12,694 in a bow because it makes them feel 1041 00:42:12,694 --> 00:42:15,866 uncomfortable. They want a happy ending. 1042 00:42:15,866 --> 00:42:17,786 We all want wrongs to be made right. But 1043 00:42:17,786 --> 00:42:21,318 there is a suffering in this space that 1044 00:42:21,318 --> 00:42:23,642 it's just an ongoing thing. There is a 1045 00:42:23,642 --> 00:42:27,594 survival, but there's still a suffering. 1046 00:42:27,594 --> 00:42:30,430 I'm so sad with you of what you've walked 1047 00:42:30,430 --> 00:42:32,206 through. Of course I believe you. I've 1048 00:42:32,206 --> 00:42:34,782 told you this already. Every word you've 1049 00:42:34,782 --> 00:42:37,634 ever said about this story, I believe it 1050 00:42:37,634 --> 00:42:40,766 because it's your experience, and I'm so 1051 00:42:40,766 --> 00:42:42,674 angry on your behalf that you went through 1052 00:42:42,674 --> 00:42:45,122 that, that any woman has ever gone through 1053 00:42:45,122 --> 00:42:47,700 that. And as you speak up and share your 1054 00:42:47,700 --> 00:42:51,554 story, sitting with you in it and the 1055 00:42:51,554 --> 00:42:53,730 terrible aspects of it, and also 1056 00:42:53,730 --> 00:42:55,366 appreciating the beauty of who you are at 1057 00:42:55,366 --> 00:42:57,366 the same time, I hope that's something 1058 00:42:57,366 --> 00:42:59,574 that our listeners can also learn to hold 1059 00:42:59,574 --> 00:43:01,846 for you and for others going forward. And 1060 00:43:01,846 --> 00:43:03,946 I think that as you share all the nuance 1061 00:43:03,946 --> 00:43:06,666 of what it means to be a victim survivor, 1062 00:43:06,666 --> 00:43:08,426 that we'll get to a better space of being 1063 00:43:08,426 --> 00:43:11,194 able to hold all of those things together 1064 00:43:11,194 --> 00:43:13,994 as we support you and all other survivors 1065 00:43:13,994 --> 00:43:16,606 as well. So I lastly just want to give you 1066 00:43:16,606 --> 00:43:19,054 a chance to share where people can find 1067 00:43:19,054 --> 00:43:22,590 you as we go forward. And if people want 1068 00:43:22,590 --> 00:43:24,430 to read more about your writing or your 1069 00:43:24,430 --> 00:43:27,246 speaking, how can they find you? Thank you 1070 00:43:27,246 --> 00:43:29,266 for that suggestion and I will get on to 1071 00:43:29,266 --> 00:43:30,594 where people can find me. But I just 1072 00:43:30,594 --> 00:43:32,514 wanted to make one more point following on 1073 00:43:32,514 --> 00:43:35,714 from what you said about the neat bow. For 1074 00:43:35,714 --> 00:43:37,458 those who are seeking a neat bow, I feel 1075 00:43:37,458 --> 00:43:38,866 like I've sort of left it as please don't 1076 00:43:38,866 --> 00:43:40,386 say this and please don't say that. But 1077 00:43:40,386 --> 00:43:42,546 for those who are seeking a neat bow, what 1078 00:43:42,546 --> 00:43:44,526 I want to say is, if you want to be an 1079 00:43:44,526 --> 00:43:46,402 ally of the MeToo movement, it doesn't 1080 00:43:46,402 --> 00:43:47,746 matter what gender you are. It doesn't 1081 00:43:47,746 --> 00:43:49,834 matter how much power you hold or don't 1082 00:43:49,834 --> 00:43:52,022 hold. Anyone can be an ally of the metoo 1083 00:43:52,022 --> 00:43:53,338 movement. But what I want to say is, if 1084 00:43:53,338 --> 00:43:55,446 you are seeking the neat bow, here's a 1085 00:43:55,446 --> 00:43:58,890 neat bow. Sit with a survivor. Hear their 1086 00:43:58,890 --> 00:44:01,882 story, acknowledge their grief. Let them 1087 00:44:01,882 --> 00:44:04,142 own that space. Give them the space to 1088 00:44:04,142 --> 00:44:07,598 talk about it and say, yes, it's 1089 00:44:07,598 --> 00:44:09,374 absolutely say all the things that Laurie 1090 00:44:09,374 --> 00:44:11,246 was gracious enough and kind enough to say 1091 00:44:11,246 --> 00:44:14,846 just now. I believe you. I'm here for you. 1092 00:44:14,846 --> 00:44:17,246 I will listen for as long as it takes for 1093 00:44:17,246 --> 00:44:19,154 you to come out with your story. I will be 1094 00:44:19,154 --> 00:44:21,426 that safe space for you. If you're looking 1095 00:44:21,426 --> 00:44:24,814 for a bow, the bow is found there not in 1096 00:44:24,814 --> 00:44:27,474 rushing in and talking about consolitary 1097 00:44:27,474 --> 00:44:29,366 things that they have in their lives, but 1098 00:44:29,366 --> 00:44:31,862 instead seeing that survivor for who they 1099 00:44:31,862 --> 00:44:34,386 are and where they are. Hearing that 1100 00:44:34,386 --> 00:44:37,094 survivor story for the story in itself, 1101 00:44:37,094 --> 00:44:38,614 not in the context of anything else that 1102 00:44:38,614 --> 00:44:40,710 happened in it, but just that story is 1103 00:44:40,710 --> 00:44:43,318 enough in itself. It's hard to listen to. 1104 00:44:43,318 --> 00:44:46,186 It's a price to be paid, but it's far less 1105 00:44:46,186 --> 00:44:48,186 than the price of survivor themselves paid 1106 00:44:48,186 --> 00:44:50,314 to go through it. So in order to honor 1107 00:44:50,314 --> 00:44:52,826 their stories, I think that that is the 1108 00:44:52,826 --> 00:44:54,590 one thing that we can do for every 1109 00:44:54,590 --> 00:44:57,262 everybody can do this. It costs nothing to 1110 00:44:57,262 --> 00:45:02,782 sit, to listen and to acknowledge. You can 1111 00:45:02,782 --> 00:45:06,914 find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. I 1112 00:45:06,914 --> 00:45:09,214 am across most social media platforms, 1113 00:45:09,214 --> 00:45:11,746 Snapchat, TikTok. I am working on a book 1114 00:45:11,746 --> 00:45:13,602 and I hope to come out with that book. I 1115 00:45:13,602 --> 00:45:17,022 do lots of speaking in churches, schools, 1116 00:45:17,022 --> 00:45:18,726 universities, workplaces. I will be going 1117 00:45:18,726 --> 00:45:21,046 up to Portland shortly in March to speak 1118 00:45:21,046 --> 00:45:24,310 to a consortium of covenant churches. I'm 1119 00:45:24,310 --> 00:45:26,802 working with several clients in Silicon 1120 00:45:26,802 --> 00:45:30,966 Valley and speaking, you know, although I 1121 00:45:30,966 --> 00:45:32,854 do feel it's true that we have a long road 1122 00:45:32,854 --> 00:45:35,074 ahead of us in terms of survival 1123 00:45:35,074 --> 00:45:37,114 awareness, survivor centric society. I 1124 00:45:37,114 --> 00:45:38,874 think the fact that I am able to have 1125 00:45:38,874 --> 00:45:41,306 these platforms and to share my story and 1126 00:45:41,306 --> 00:45:43,530 to open up a dialogue, really, about 1127 00:45:43,530 --> 00:45:45,194 people and their understanding of sexual 1128 00:45:45,194 --> 00:45:47,246 assault and survivorship, I'm grateful for 1129 00:45:47,246 --> 00:45:51,118 all of that. So grateful for you. Thank 1130 00:45:51,118 --> 00:45:52,974 you so much for being so vulnerable and 1131 00:45:52,974 --> 00:45:55,018 for speaking out for this ruina. We look 1132 00:45:55,018 --> 00:45:56,786 forward to your book and. Just thank you 1133 00:45:56,786 --> 00:46:03,422 for being who you are. Thank you. That 1134 00:46:03,422 --> 00:46:04,514 conversation may have brought up some 1135 00:46:04,514 --> 00:46:06,594 things for you as you heard her tell her 1136 00:46:06,594 --> 00:46:10,114 story. So much about what happens in abuse 1137 00:46:10,114 --> 00:46:11,698 stories is that those narratives often 1138 00:46:11,698 --> 00:46:13,478 don't come out for years, especially when 1139 00:46:13,478 --> 00:46:15,846 it comes to sexual assault. If it happened 1140 00:46:15,846 --> 00:46:19,334 as a child or even in someone's early 20s, 1141 00:46:19,334 --> 00:46:22,262 often we don't see them speaking out until 1142 00:46:22,262 --> 00:46:24,746 early fifty s. And so if this is something 1143 00:46:24,746 --> 00:46:26,394 that has come up for you or you've not 1144 00:46:26,394 --> 00:46:27,818 really shared it with anyone before, and 1145 00:46:27,818 --> 00:46:29,786 as you heard Rowena talking about her 20 1146 00:46:29,786 --> 00:46:33,306 years of silence and finally speaking out, 1147 00:46:33,306 --> 00:46:34,918 and that is something that you're wishing 1148 00:46:34,918 --> 00:46:37,102 to do, I just want to send you so much 1149 00:46:37,102 --> 00:46:39,502 love and support right now. It is really 1150 00:46:39,502 --> 00:46:41,726 hard to share your story with even someone 1151 00:46:41,726 --> 00:46:45,694 who you can trust. So do choose wisely as 1152 00:46:45,694 --> 00:46:49,774 you share it. And for those of you who are 1153 00:46:49,774 --> 00:46:52,066 sharing it already and are trying to find 1154 00:46:52,066 --> 00:46:53,778 a space in a community of support, I hope 1155 00:46:53,778 --> 00:46:55,330 you know that Rowena is one of those 1156 00:46:55,330 --> 00:46:58,002 people that is building that kind of 1157 00:46:58,002 --> 00:46:59,910 support around her just by sharing her 1158 00:46:59,910 --> 00:47:02,006 story herself. That is what's connected me 1159 00:47:02,006 --> 00:47:05,062 to her. And she's just a wonderful human 1160 00:47:05,062 --> 00:47:06,982 being. So grateful for her voice in this 1161 00:47:06,982 --> 00:47:09,478 space that she can share her story out 1162 00:47:09,478 --> 00:47:13,478 loud, as painful as it is, but that she's 1163 00:47:13,478 --> 00:47:16,874 finding hope and freedom and healing, 1164 00:47:16,874 --> 00:47:19,482 which is a really long, long journey and 1165 00:47:19,482 --> 00:47:22,634 has multiple layers for years. So if you 1166 00:47:22,634 --> 00:47:23,998 find yourself in that space, I just want 1167 00:47:23,998 --> 00:47:26,814 you to know that many of us here 1168 00:47:26,814 --> 00:47:28,718 understand, many of us have walked through 1169 00:47:28,718 --> 00:47:30,634 similar things, whether it's abuse of 1170 00:47:30,634 --> 00:47:32,990 various kinds or just traumatic 1171 00:47:32,990 --> 00:47:35,666 situations. And it can make a difference 1172 00:47:35,666 --> 00:47:37,138 to be able to share that with somebody 1173 00:47:37,138 --> 00:47:42,034 that you trust. So if you reach out and 1174 00:47:42,034 --> 00:47:45,330 want to share with someone or just need 1175 00:47:45,330 --> 00:47:47,846 support, feel free to dm me on Twitter 1176 00:47:47,846 --> 00:47:49,782 just to let me know. Not necessarily your 1177 00:47:49,782 --> 00:47:54,246 story, but this podcast resonated with 1178 00:47:54,246 --> 00:47:57,590 you. Or if you feel free to share your 1179 00:47:57,590 --> 00:47:59,494 name on a Twitter thread somewhere or 1180 00:47:59,494 --> 00:48:00,966 something more public on social media, 1181 00:48:00,966 --> 00:48:02,982 just to say, I resonated with this 1182 00:48:02,982 --> 00:48:05,306 episode. That's great, too. Or if you just 1183 00:48:05,306 --> 00:48:06,666 don't want to say anything at all and just 1184 00:48:06,666 --> 00:48:09,174 keep that to yourself. Absolutely. Your 1185 00:48:09,174 --> 00:48:11,978 choice. But whatever this podcast has done 1186 00:48:11,978 --> 00:48:13,686 for you today, I hope that if anything, 1187 00:48:13,686 --> 00:48:15,498 it's shown you that you're not alone, 1188 00:48:15,498 --> 00:48:17,486 you're not crazy. And that if something 1189 00:48:17,486 --> 00:48:19,146 like this happened to you, you didn't 1190 00:48:19,146 --> 00:48:21,402 deserve that. You deserved care and 1191 00:48:21,402 --> 00:48:23,646 safety. And I hope that going forward, you 1192 00:48:23,646 --> 00:48:25,534 can find healing and walk your way through 1193 00:48:25,534 --> 00:48:28,046 this journey like so many have in the 1194 00:48:28,046 --> 00:48:29,886 survivor community, which is to me, a very 1195 00:48:29,886 --> 00:48:31,986 sacred space. So glad that Rowena could 1196 00:48:31,986 --> 00:48:36,094 share her story today. So glad that she is 1197 00:48:36,094 --> 00:48:38,286 finding beauty in those ashes and that she 1198 00:48:38,286 --> 00:48:40,862 encouraged us to step into the lives of 1199 00:48:40,862 --> 00:48:42,726 survivors by sitting with them. And she 1200 00:48:42,726 --> 00:48:44,374 talked about wrapping up in a bow at the 1201 00:48:44,374 --> 00:48:47,142 end by just hearing them saying, I believe 1202 00:48:47,142 --> 00:48:48,726 you, I support you. I'll sit with you as 1203 00:48:48,726 --> 00:48:50,262 long as it takes for you to tell your 1204 00:48:50,262 --> 00:48:52,502 story as many times as you need to. And it 1205 00:48:52,502 --> 00:48:54,294 often takes many times to unpack those 1206 00:48:54,294 --> 00:48:56,486 onion layers. So if you're somebody who's 1207 00:48:56,486 --> 00:48:58,678 sitting with a survivor today, I'm also 1208 00:48:58,678 --> 00:49:00,234 sending you love because it really costs 1209 00:49:00,234 --> 00:49:02,042 to listen to, and it's really hard to 1210 00:49:02,042 --> 00:49:05,166 listen and sit there and feel that pain 1211 00:49:05,166 --> 00:49:08,094 with our friends, with our loved ones. So 1212 00:49:08,094 --> 00:49:09,422 for all of you out there making a 1213 00:49:09,422 --> 00:49:12,654 difference in this way, keep doing it, but 1214 00:49:12,654 --> 00:49:14,830 also take breaks, take care of yourself, 1215 00:49:14,830 --> 00:49:16,586 and thank you for just listening to 1216 00:49:16,586 --> 00:49:18,958 Rowena's story and the way she's 1217 00:49:18,958 --> 00:49:20,594 advocating. Feel free to join in with the 1218 00:49:20,594 --> 00:49:22,434 work that she's doing by listening to her 1219 00:49:22,434 --> 00:49:24,958 going and showing up where she speaks and 1220 00:49:24,958 --> 00:49:26,338 supporting her wherever she speaks around 1221 00:49:26,338 --> 00:49:30,302 the world. I know many of you listen in 1222 00:49:30,302 --> 00:49:31,614 Singapore, over in different countries in 1223 00:49:31,614 --> 00:49:33,766 Asia. She's occasionally speaks there. I 1224 00:49:33,766 --> 00:49:36,246 know she's in the UK sometimes and also 1225 00:49:36,246 --> 00:49:39,046 all across the US. But as she continues to 1226 00:49:39,046 --> 00:49:41,206 do her work, please support her. She's 1227 00:49:41,206 --> 00:49:42,614 just one of those people out there really 1228 00:49:42,614 --> 00:49:45,334 making a difference. And if you're in our 1229 00:49:45,334 --> 00:49:46,806 Patreon community called difference 1230 00:49:46,806 --> 00:49:48,058 makers, you'll get to hear me go a little 1231 00:49:48,058 --> 00:49:50,090 bit deeper with her into our question 1232 00:49:50,090 --> 00:49:52,474 around what kind of organizations does she 1233 00:49:52,474 --> 00:49:53,946 really get behind and support. And you'll 1234 00:49:53,946 --> 00:49:55,882 get to hear her kind of unpack those. She 1235 00:49:55,882 --> 00:49:57,818 has a lot of organizations that she really 1236 00:49:57,818 --> 00:49:59,534 believes in, but she kind of unpacks three 1237 00:49:59,534 --> 00:50:01,886 key ones there for us so we can have calls 1238 00:50:01,886 --> 00:50:04,046 to action together as difference makers. 1239 00:50:04,046 --> 00:50:07,550 So please go to patreon.com, a world of 1240 00:50:07,550 --> 00:50:09,714 difference to be able to watch the video 1241 00:50:09,714 --> 00:50:11,826 of that episode, that exclusive episode 1242 00:50:11,826 --> 00:50:14,578 where I ask her to unpack some of that for 1243 00:50:14,578 --> 00:50:16,702 us to have a call to action together as a 1244 00:50:16,702 --> 00:50:21,846 result of this. And if you are really just 1245 00:50:21,846 --> 00:50:25,062 in need of support and help once again. Or 1246 00:50:25,062 --> 00:50:27,302 just prayers. Feel free to reach out to 1247 00:50:27,302 --> 00:50:31,046 me. I'm on Twitter still x at loriadbr. 1248 00:50:31,046 --> 00:50:33,750 You can find me on Instagram. Lori Adams 1249 00:50:33,750 --> 00:50:35,930 Brown feel free to just message me there 1250 00:50:35,930 --> 00:50:37,594 and love to send you some love and support 1251 00:50:37,594 --> 00:50:39,994 your way. Anyway, thank you all of you 1252 00:50:39,994 --> 00:50:41,546 around the world who are listening to this 1253 00:50:41,546 --> 00:50:43,146 for just bearing witness to what happened 1254 00:50:43,146 --> 00:50:46,666 to Rowena, which was absolutely horrible 1255 00:50:46,666 --> 00:50:50,074 and it causes us to pause and lament and 1256 00:50:50,074 --> 00:50:52,262 just feel angry on her behalf that she 1257 00:50:52,262 --> 00:50:55,246 endured that and just sad with all that 1258 00:50:55,246 --> 00:50:58,226 she's had to experience as a result. And 1259 00:50:58,226 --> 00:51:01,074 in the meantime, as we hold those feelings 1260 00:51:01,074 --> 00:51:03,538 and also look for the beauty that we hold 1261 00:51:03,538 --> 00:51:06,126 at the same time, I hope that you are 1262 00:51:06,126 --> 00:51:07,714 finding love and support around you for 1263 00:51:07,714 --> 00:51:08,834 whatever you're walking through. That's 1264 00:51:08,834 --> 00:51:10,814 hard today. Keep making a difference