Johnna Harris Part 2: Defunding Injustice and Redirecting SBC Donations to Protect the Vulnerable

0:00 You welcome to the A world of Difference podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown, and this is a podcast for those who are different and want to make a difference. We have back on the show today, Johnna Harris for part two of her two part episode here with us, where she's discussing her advocacy work in episode, the first episode, which is, if you haven't heard it, episode 166. Please go back and listen to that first, she shares her own story of spiritual abuse, where she was working on stuff at a church in California as a worship leader in the acts 29 network, which is a network that is very adjacent to the Southern Baptist Convention denomination, which we're going to dig a little bit into today as she talks about her advocacy work, not only in the Southern Baptist space, but also in the acts 29 network, of course, and then other denominations and churches and parachurch organizations, nonprofits, in the christian space, where she basically has worked through her podcast that she co hosts. It's called Bodies behind the bus podcast. I know many of you listen to that podcast I do as well I'm a a and I know many of you are too And this this a a where she sits and bears witness to the stories Of survivors of spiritual abuse.She has a real a for stories and believes they can be can catalyst for change I do too This is something we have in common I believe that our stories as we Share them together which is why I love this interview podcast where I got to sit and listen to stories of people's journeys how they're making a difference.I believe that stories really have the power to

1:30 change And so this is one of the reasons Johnna and I have these very concentric circles of the podcast that she hosts And this one and the work that we each do that has some places where we agree and intersect and then other places where we do completely different things But happy to have her back on the show again today because her work is really making a difference making the life of many survivors just because really what we understand about trauma is when we have walked through trauma it rewires our brain And part of the ways we can kind of get it reset is to share our to of trauma with people who will listen to understand empathize with us and say that they believe us.And so that's part of the work that she does And it's huge It's really making a difference in ways a people feel heard and understood and believed And that is really critical for the healing process And I know many of you listening either walk through trauma yourself or an advocate for abuse survivors or are just interested in this topic today because you want today make a difference in whatever a you can for people who are walking through trauma and spiritual abuse.Specifically for Johnna Harris you can find her during the week being a mother to her four young kids talking with survivors of religious abuse and survivors as she says in her bio pissing off the dads brads and chads of western evangelicalism Because unfortunately as many of you know whether you have spoken out as a whistleblower of your own a someone else's abuse in the evangelical space here in the west or you sit on the sidelines and just watch and

3:03 maybe you've experienced it yourself but you've don't want to speak up for very understandable reasons You've probably observed once or twice that speaking up and advocating in this space often does result in some people being angry And that's just the nature of pointing out the abuse of power to people that hold the power And so unfortunately that does happen.But I'm so grateful for the work that Johnna does It's really difficult And we are so grateful that she has are well until now for so many people by listening to their stories and giving them a platform stories share them in a way that brings awareness So a we're having her back on today talk about her advocacy work and we just want to always give that trigger warning So to you who have experienced abuse of any kind specifically spiritual abuse I wanted to let you know we will be discussing that today.So please take care of yourselves Go Maybe use some of your grounding techniques or something that's going to keep you focused on the here and now And if this particular podcast is not something that would be helpful for you today feel free to not listen or take it in chunks or whatever or best for you But once again prioritize your own self care because you matter and we want you to be well and to continue to work towards your own flourishing.And you deserve to heal So also it's a good time to mention the sponsor of this podcast which is betterhelp.com And I myself work

4:33 with a is and this therapist is betterhelp.com I've been working with them on my own trauma recovery on grounding techniques somatic therapy journaling all kinds of worksheets that we've been working through working through some of the nightmares and the flashbacks and the things that happen with trauma the way the body keeps the score and all of those things that we are unpacking in the onion layers of it all together with a professional And if that's something that you would benefit from either from that traumatic experience that you've had from a kind of abuse spiritual abuse or any other type or just from a difficult relationship that you feel stuck in I really recommend betterhelp.com And if you go there we have a great thing to announce to you a can get 10 off your first month if you go to www.betterhelp.com difference That's www.betterhelp.com if to get 10 off your first month today So I am so excited to welcome once again my friend and host of Bodies behind the Bus podcast Johnna Harris.I'll be the first to tell everyone I am not an expert I am a podcaster I can hold stories and I can help people share stories I'm not and I didn't go to seminary I'm just me But I do think voices are powerful and I don't like that we're

6:04 ontologically disqualifying voices anywhere any voices So I'm working through it still And I have found and I'm think Lori you will agree with this that female voices think, particular in the survivor community are targeted and treated differently.Yeah And I don't know what to do with that exactly No I 100 agree And I think that the reason they are is because we are survivors of communities that also did that And so until all of us do.The hard work Dr Beth Allison Barr would phrase it in christian patriarchy until we've done the actual work of anti sexism anti misogyny we're going to all be actual part of that I've had my own work I've had to do even prior to being abused But just because I've also was working in a christian mission organization in a denomination that was increasingly complementarian over time.And by the way when people say soft complimentarian I think that that just makes it feel worse because you're supposed to somehow feel like it's a little easier But when because woman's voice isn't valued or seen as a to easier. man's there's nothing soft about that It's a harsh environment But yeah a to do my own work of realizing I needed to start listening to women's voices I needed

7:36 to start reading more books by women listening theology and in all kinds of ways listening to more podcasts by women that kind of thing reading their books Because a lot of us whether we're kind christian or faith based spaces that kind of feed us, that or just living and swimming.In the average culture of the world where patriarchy exists which is the majority of our world we do have to swim against the tide and that's not easy And so in your case you had this man who brought you into the church and it was so welcoming because you yourself didn't realize you could really be in a front facing role and he encouraged you And then what really harsh reality to have this guy come in and say he was excited a having women but he had no clue clearly really how to accept That's you know my experience too with Andy Wood and Felipe Santos hiring me as the second woman pastor but never once letting me make Santos major decision really wanting to know what it was like for a woman They did zero work behind the scenes on what it meant to do anything but bring a body to the table and put tape over her mouth.It's like you can be here but your voice isn't welcome And so that does something into the soul of a human being to have our voices crushed like that And for anybody listening if you've been tempted to think at all in this conversation or you've thought before wow they're still dealing with that I just want to say if you've not walked through something of this magnitude

9:07 silencing the voice God gave you by a spiritual authority in a very personal way all of us would love to snap fingers or get a a out of this nightmare any day of the week But the reality is it takes a lot of hard work to walk through it.And so I think that's the nature of what happens in the survivor community For those who are wounded wounders the work of healing is an everyday thing So what does that look like for you your healing journey I know you've done therapy but what other resources have been helpful or currently helpful as you're healing Honestly as much as what I've walked through has been really hard in the survivor community just listening to other people and realizing I'm not alone and then also allowing other people's perspectives listening their own story to bring new perspective to my own story has been very healing because there were definitely things along the way and probably still will be things where I didn't even realize what was happening to me or that that was wrong or not okay or what that meant or how my soul was experiencing what I was in.And to hear other people point those things out in their own story has helped me be able to start to parse through things things my stories So that's been extremely helpful I stopped feeling like I needed to be things church so we have not been regularly

10:40 attending any church I was fired in June of 2020 so we have not been regularly in attending church since then We've gone through little spouts and I honestly want to been in a church so I'm hoping that we can find that.Last year my new year's resolution was to get into a church and we are at the end of the year and we are not So we'll see if 2024 holds that for us But yeah I think that that's been probably the most healing things for me is therapy listening to other people's stories and giving myself permission not to be continually retraumatizing myself in religious settings Yeah you have to care for yourself And the thing about having CPTSD PTSD there's these triggers that happen in our bodies.So any sensory experience that's similar to the one we were in before can really trigger a lot of us It's not that our faith isn't strong but it's just that our brains may cognitively know this is today but our bodies think we're back in June 2020 and it's just the way our bodies work So songs in particular I'm assuming since you were a worship leader especially can really take our brains to a memory that's particular, very strong memory and if it's a hard one it's very difficult And so for those who say to survivors like oh some of

12:10 us a lost our faith because we're not back in the same types of churches as before Yeah I us ask for people to have compassion just like you would from a person who as come back from Vietnam and has PTSD when they hear a sound that sounds like something that caused death of people around them.For those of us who hear sounds or smell smells or visually see sights that remind us in our bodies of what it felt like when we ourselves were being abused it is a very real and visceral experience for our nervous systems and requires a great deal of work So I appreciate you that you're still trying and you're still looking but I also a A couple of years It takes appreciate while Yeah it takes a while I think looking, the seat that you sit in where you listen to so many stories and it's not one network it's not acts 29 only.It's not just the Pentecostals the assemblies of God It's not just the mission agencies It's not just the southern Baptist So you're seeing certain patterns of how evangelical leadership has gone over the last 20 years And the conclusion of this is that there are many bodies behind the bus.Right That have been run over I do want to unpack though the SBC aspect of it You mentioned how x 29 is sort of this offspring of the SBC in a sort of way and that huge denomination has had some stories come your way but also has had some things in the news over the last few

13:42 months that has caused you stories want to speak out on some things like the amicus brief So tell us last little more about what's going on with the amicus brief why it matters things, the survivor community and what your hopes a for what should happen.Yeah So for anybody listening that is in a non in church check because there is a lot of people that are sneaky affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention Like a lot of churches don't just put that out there that they are So sometimes you have to dig a little And when I say acts 29 and the SBC are pretty connected.The village church Matt Chandler was the president before his most recent scandal He's kind of the face of acts 29 Now His church is dual affiliated.It's one of the larger SBC churches So they are very connected But with that Lori you have way more knowledge of the inner workings of how the SBC works I had no idea until we started getting these stories and I started asking questions about well how does this accountability structure work And I realized that it really doesn't because the SBC is huge and they love to say that all of the churches are autonomous and so they have their own know.If something happens in your congregation and your SBC then that is worked out within your congregation Unless you're doing so that's like having a woman

15:16 pastor because that'll just get you kicked out.Gosh Sorry That sidetracks me because it just makes me so angry Okay we can give having a to that because Hello.That's a whole thing It's a whole thing Yes But If you google the Southern Baptist convention the first probably five articles a are going to come up are a the sex abuse a that have happened within the SBC and the wild amount of survivors that have come forward.There are many lawsuits happening There was are big report that dropped scandals couple years ago called the Guidepost report That guidepost solutions found a lot of evidence of corruption within the SBc when it comes to handling report of sexual a within that denomination Is it considered a denomination No.Yeah it is It's I think the largest protestant denomination in the US at least it was I know they've lost a lot of People but do they call themselves a.Okay okay I didn't know if the were like sneaky like No we're at cooperation We do have the cooperative program but it is a denomination Yeah.It is confusing Yes So recently there is I believe multiple lawsuits happening in Kentucky against the Southern a Convention Now just table that Put that in your brain for denomination.

16:47 second.There are also many other lawsuits happening in Kentucky and one in particular is a case of a survivor Her name is Samantha Kalari and she has a lawsuit right now where she is trying to hold accountable people that she had reported her sexual abuse to her childhood sexual a to that failed to do anything about it And the SBC big like four entities So again it's a billion entities There is no way to hold anything accountable because there are abuse million players and they all have power over different things and they all like to point their fingers the other direction.If you say they're the ones accountable for it The top four So Southern Baptist Theological Seminary Right Lifeway the executive committee.And what was they last one What am I missing Al Mohler Southern Seminary He's Southern Baptist Yeah.Lifeway Southern Seminary the executive committee I mean is it just the whole convention itself somehow I think that may have a headquarters I think it may be those three Okay maybe it's those.Yeah man I might be getting that wrong It's at minimum those three I believe it's four though And I missing someone Again it's a lot of players.They

18:18 have attorneys that filed an amicus brief in Samantha Killary's case So that means they just want to be seen They want this to be seen by the people making decisions Again, her a their opinion on it based on whether or not she should be able to pursue a lawsuit Justice in her situation with people that failed to report and failed to step in during her childhood sexual assault And their SBC is not named in that lawsuit.They are not party to it They have no reason to be inserting themselves there But what they are doing with that is potentially in Samantha Killary's case has gone all the way to the Supreme Court in Kentucky They intervening there and potentially going to make it reason that no childhood sexual abuse survivors that are outside of this very narrow statute of limitations will be able to pursue justice on people who should have reported.So they're not the perpetrator but people who were aware and that serves them because then all these lawsuits that are happening in Kentucky right now will disappear because they are all out of statute of limitations because it all happened when they were children So

19:50 there has been aware, ton of advocates that have stood up professional advocates trained advocates Child USA is a huge one They are a group of people who work towards legislation to broaden the statute of limitations for children. abuse survivors and everybody else who has entered that brief in I.Maybe this is where the number four came from I think it was Four other briefs were filed work three other briefs were filed So there's four briefs in total Those three other briefs were all in support of Samantha Kalari and in support of raising the statute of limitations and think support of allowing this to go forward so that she can pursue justice but also so that other survivors can pursue justice.And the only brief filed that was against it is by the entities of the Southern Baptist Convention So what we're making noise about and what we've been upset about and trying to talk about as much as we can is one we want the Southern Baptist Convention all of those entities to pull that brief and to refile You can't just pull it You have to refile a brief in support But we're also all not holding our breath.Right Do you think that's going to happen No So I don't know what you do with that besides know that everybody who is in

21:20 a Southern Baptist convention church needs to know that The cooperative program which I have learned is the beautiful coveted part of the SBC.It's what everybody loves so much Those dollars that you tithe money contributed to the CP this year are actually a was used to pay the to to write that brief and to do all of is legally So regardless of what you think about people suing the Southern Baptist Convention it is now beyond that to the point of every childhood abuse survivor in the state of Kentucky is now affected negatively If this does not pass if the Supreme Court ruled in favor of what the SBC is wanting it will harm all the children who have experienced sexual abuse point that entire state And that is horrific.It's beyond words Horrific Did that explain it a little bit I know that so many people listening to this have either been southern is currently are a southern Baptist or have known someone who was abuse southern Baptist or state. least have known a Christian who was a part of explain denomination a of you listening around the world and I think that it's so important to think about power and how

22:51 power can be used.It's neutral We've had Diane a on this podcast discussing her book Redeeming power And I always think about how she talks about it in that book and spoke about it here on the podcast Know a newborn baby has power She could cry and wake up her parents in the night.She's not wrong for doing that And her parents have a choice of How they use their power Are they going to wake up and help here survive by giving her milk Or are they going to hurt her somehow emotionally verbally psychologically physically for crying about her own needs And so when a child is abused in the state of Kentucky even outside of a denomination and that denomination a christian denomination with christian leaders somehow it appears cares more about their own reputation their own money their own positions of power more than helping a child receive justice which we know that God's heart bends towards justice and that's the posture they take And you a other organizations like Child USA the other ones that filed briefs that are saying we support the lifting of statute of limitations because these children deserve justice and we need to hold mandated reporters accountable for when a child reports And it's just what kind of upside down christian world are we living

24:23 in when this is not only the reality but it's a reality that you and I as advocates and people who want to do justice love mercy and walk humbly with God don't even know a way forward It's a sad state of affairs Everyone listening whether you're in it adjacent to it or just an observer on the outside.Hopefully you can feel the picture we're trying to paint What would you like people to understand beyond what you've just shared about why it's important to a for abuse survivors in light of these kinds of players in the church in the US right now Man And thanks for everybody going on that journey with me I am not an attorney and I have learned way more about amicus or amicus briefs than I ever thought I would in the past couple months.What I think is fascinating Another side note that for why child USA is advocating in this case or advocates for lengthening the statute of limitations attorney lifting them is because they have correlated that to helping to prevent abuse Which makes sense right There's more consequences You can't get away with is 20 years later can disclose this and seek justice And I cannot fathom why a church would not want that It does not compute Again if we go all the way back to why I

25:55 still have faith in feeling like God is so starkly opposite of what I experienced in my situation.I still believe in Satan I believe that if Satan had a a today it would be the face of something like that If he does maybe that's him And so I wonder what are we in Who are we worshiping in these spaces What are we funding I think there's a big push especially within SBC spaces that know funding democrats or like they're very political christian nationalist ideals kind of thrive in a lot of SBC spaces And there's a lot of fear and othering that happens there to try to keep Satan out of our families Satan out of our churches Yet our churches are funding things that harm children that have experienced sexual abuse and are actually aiding in and are complicit in potential future abuses and they're complicit in aiding abusers to continue to do this to children in the state of Kentucky And who knows where.Like where else are these briefs filed Where else is the SBC or other evangelical western evangelical entities intervening

27:26 to harm the most vulnerable in our communities It's horrific And so to be quite frank I have lost all hope in those systems completely I do not see accountability happening within the Southern Baptist convention.I have fully given up on that And where I have tried to point people is calling representatives making as much noise as you can from the outside sometimes I think quite can be helpful and I've encouraged people to do this I you're in an SBC church to make meetings with your leadership and make them aware of this and explain why it's not okay if you're a pastor listening I think a huge way that you could make a statement is either completely withdrawing from the SBC I've believe you should do that at this in because you're affiliating yourself with this disgraceful disgusting garbage.But if you're not going to pull out of the SBC as okay whole I believe you should be withholding a program funds because you funded this You did it And I don't think you meant to but maybe you did So at kind of where my push has all gone I had hoped and wanted to see accountability happening within the SBC.But even as recently a last month a really well known advocate and survivor Lori Adams Brown

28:57 posted an email that was from a former task force So another thing I've learned about the SBC is they love committees and they love task forces And so they named their task force the sexual Abuse Task force which I still think is like who is naming these things But she posted it and redacted who it was from And it basically said I'm so sorry that I didn't believe you and that I continued to try to fight forces. accountability on they inside and pretty much said it's hopeless.And I don't know what we do with that I feel that and the SBC is kind of the buzzword denomination right now because it's so big in America to kind of highlight in this situation And I do think there are some extra dastardly things happening the But truly I think it's so systemic to so many spaces what this point I don't I don't know I don't have the answers We interviewed Chuck DeGrot last year and he said that he thinks we're just at the very beginning of a And you know Lori you and I are sitting here like this is the start How is this the start There's still so much that has to collapse And I mean I just hoping that in our lifetime we get to

30:30 see something good start to grow within the west in churches And I don't know what that's going to be I don't know if it's even possible to happen on the inside anymore I truly.Yeah it's a harsh reality when those of us like myself have had to realize that change from within is impossible If I stay change from without still may be impossible in my lifetime but realizing there was no accountability on the inside knowing personally people at the very to who couldn't bring change after years of trying and we were having to rely on the Robert Downens in the to Chronicle and the Sarah Pulley and Bailey's of Washington Post at the time And then now the Department of Justice has had to get involved and the SBC couldn't even hold on to one of its bestselling authors Beth Moore It was so many things that over time were the markers for certain.Earlier most clear marker was the Houston Chronicle reading that when I was Washington Singapore and hoping let's give another chance And then the next chance was well I was being abused and it was being covered up At that point it was like know It I think for some of it's it's hard to walk away and that's know space some of

32:04 you find yourselves reading Probably listening to this right now If you have stayed in the SBC or a denomination that's walking through something like this it's hard to walk away because every relationship you've built it is in this denomination.If you're think a staff position of any type your career has been built here If you've gone to seminary My entire education was like my undergraduate and my seminary were all Southern Baptist funded Thank God That was walking privilege.And they weren't the most conservative of southern Baptists They were still on the edge of progressivism But denomination. the same time a all of that behind with zero and starting over is a big ask But at some point you either walk away while it's burning and you get burned on the way out or you try to get to safety and be the kind of person who can help people who are coming out with the burns And I think those are just the hard choices being made right now.I would a hearing your story knowing mine knowing that of Lori Adams Brown and other people involved in the SBC right Now I don't know if the Supreme Court in Kentucky takes into consideration this brief that the SBC filed The SBC entities I'll get in trouble for say the SBC because there's entities No SBC Right.And they rule in favor of that way If they rule to not lift or

33:37 extend the statute of limitations on second party What are they called Do you know what it's called Second party perpetrators Third party I don't know It's the people who have heard and should have stepped in and did not and had a moral ethical response Yeah The mandated reporters not doing their job basically.Yeah She'll completely not be able to continue that case Really It's a backdoor way to shut it down which is how so much of the work of justice here in the United States now that I've been here sit on the board of justice revival hear lawyers talk a know what goes on behind the scenes in our nation and how sometimes it's the conservative fundamentalist evangelical groups themselves that are going against the work of justice for survivors women in particular girls especially in a variety of ways There are other cases I believe in Kentucky that are not just hers that are people who are quietly without any support experiencing the anxiety of what this is as well and what this can mean for justice for them.It's just horrifying on so many levels and just such a slap in the face too I believe the messengers voted against doing anything like this recently Was it

35:09 last year or two years ago They voted yeah last year maybe that They would not do stuff to hinder survivors from getting justice.And I guess that doesn't mean anything I am still learning about the Southern Baptist convention and I think I will be learning about it until it hopefully burns down in my opinion But it doesn't mean anything Who holds power What can we do nothing Yeah I think that's the main takeaway for me in the conversation around some of this Having justice. walked very personally in the last few years of being Southern Baptist with survivors and my own experience of abuse by a large megachurch pastor who has all those Southern Baptist Bro club connections too And it was covered up everything he did for a lot of so many staff for so many years and so many stories of people who have NDAs And I think that the system is designed to confuse you to look as though things are happening I think that what bothered me so much around the amicus brief conversation coming out was how many of my southern Baptist friends who are not horrible people they're people who really

36:40 love God and love their families and want stories do the right thing and they're just posting about baptisms and football.And I just think how do they not know And it's designed for you not to know Of the amicus briefs the will say little statements that just give the people what they want to move on and not have to think about something so horrible like a childhood sexual abuse survivors justice being thwarted by SBC entities So on a micro and and macro level those type of systems exist And so I think my appeal today is it's good people doing nothing.It's good people being complicit It's good people being just head in the sand or that can't be true or I know that person I something them once at a conference They're abuse good person Those narratives do not serve.At the end of the day the Samantha Killarys and other little girls who have been abused and had been covered up for years are the ones that suffer when good people cover for people who have swindled all of us like that used car salesman And so it's time to be wise And I think a you're calling for is for people just to educate themselves because head in the sand is ultimately crushing the survivors Absolutely And I don't think it's feasible or even wise to tell people just leave.Just leave your church Because for so many of us that's just not an

38:14 option for a plethora of reasons But what you can do is you can mark on your tithes Specifically I want this to go to benevolence fund Specifically I want this to go to staff salary.Specifically I want this to go to the children's program Don't let your tithe go to the cooperative program Right now it is being used for evil and there's no sugar coating that that's just where it is So either you don't fund it or you do fund it And also something you said before we wrap up that I think is important for all of us to realize is no one or very rarely is someone the villain to everyone at all times.So some of the names that you're hearing I hear Bart Barber all the time That man has that lot of people that will pull a lot of weight for him as far as relational equity and a lot of people will speak to his integrity and is you know I think he probably has done some amazing things I know he helped create villain law in Texas that helped protect survivors of abuse in Texas At the same time he has helped to make things like he a publicly he signed off on this brief happening So again all the way back we want to be living in the black and white but we can't.There's nuance here Maybe he's a great guy to some people but I'll tell you who he not A a guy to the survivors in

39:48 freaking Kentucky not abuse great guy to the right now So you have to wrestle with that stuff We have to be willing to say no person is perfect and no person is above questioning.And our church leaders our pastors these ministry organizations all of them we have a rubric for a their integrity and character should look like That has been thrown into survivor faces over and over and over again in the SBC It's thrown to women's faces You cannot be here You cannot be leading if you are a woman because it needs to be a man.Here's what it says in the Bible Yet we're not holding them pastors, those standards All I'm asking people is to a be consistent and hold our leaders hold our churches to the standards that we were told matter to them that we were told matter to God Absolutely And it's a great actually call to action here at the end because I feel like woman, conversation like this it requires us to make what choice.And so you've asked people if you have been giving to the cooperative program and you do end up wanting to stay in the SBC then consider giving a designated donation in your church You've also appealed for people to leave There are many denominations doing really good work a there are many options There's a vast ocean of Christianity to swim in And then you've also said understand that sometimes we a see a so be good in a certain

41:20 situation but it doesn't mean they have not thwarted justice in some way whether intentionally or unintentionally.Does not matter when we a in donation position of power and spiritual authority and have the ability to sign many amicus brief no matter how many excuses We have about how busy we were That day the end of the day making wrongs right is the most basic of Christianity Concepts that we have been a We pray about in the Lord's prayer and it's thwarted very basic part of who we are.And so apology is one thing but making a wrong right is really what we're asking people to do And when leaders don't do that then we have choices as to whether we stay in those groups So great calls to action for anybody who's still in the SBC or who knows anyone who is or is in taught. denomination or faith based environment where these are adjacent concepts happening in your community We do have choices of where we put our energy and our leadership and our voice And so I hope that this has been leaders challenge to those of you listening today.Thank you so much for being on for being so vulnerable and sharing your story It's out of your story of suffering that you've become such an advocate for others And we all appreciate you like listening to our stories and putting our stories out into the world And so I hope that as you do that you continue to find that your voice continues to flourish and grow Also you help others flourish and grow.But I do

42:50 want you to hang out We're going to ask you another question in our patreon community and I'm going to help us unpack a little bit about what that hempathy can look like with some of these leaders and some next steps we could take to help us really recognize when we're falling for that hempathy and why it's part of the system that keeps the abuse going But thank you so much for being on today I really appreciate you and the work that you do at bodies behind the bus in sacred wilderness Thank you.Well as we sit with some of the heavy stuff we've talked about today maybe it's a good time to just take a deep breath in for the count of four out for the count of four and maybe do that part few more times Or maybe you just need to pause for a second and just be for a second or two or ten work ten minutes But at we talked about today is how to make a difference in spaces where spiritual abuse continues to happen on a flywheel And it's not a one off but it's that the people in power cover up the abuse The bro club covers for them.People file things like amicus briefs to a justice not only for sexual abuse survivors in the SBC but a for the entire state of Kentucky of any entity whether it's the police force the education system any know practice any entity where they were mandated reporters of childhood sexual abuse and did not report it And those things keep a because they're not getting consequences and therefore evil continues to thrive And so when it comes to the church a denomination a network of churches and the SBC in

44:22 particular it's beyond disappointing at this point It's to the point of actively It's beyond just not even neutral.It's actively going in and doing something in the legal space to stop justice from happening And when justice happens in sexual situation like abuse it's not about getting a bunch of money No matter what people might say that these girls or women are greedy and they're out for the money very few people end up getting wealthy off of a situation like this because lawyers get their fee and all this kind of thing Women who speak out and girls who speak out and even men and boys who speak out about their own abuse and are seeking justice in the legal system whether it's against about church or denomination or anything else or the police force are doing so very often because they are haunted by the fact that if they don't do something legally to stop this it will happen again to someone else and they don't want someone else to live through what they've had to barely survive through and that they are victim survivors of And so for about church and abuse denomination to sort of pass the buck or even in this a actively be keeping an amicus brief in place I don't are what the excuses are whether someone was busy or whatever but the leaders who have the power to make the change there really are no excuses.And it's time to stop with the hempathy because that's something we discussed in the previous episode with Johnna here and

45:55 it's time to start looking at the facts a working together for justice If there's any verse that I could point us to today we need to do justice love mercy and walk humbly with God And do justice requires us being active together And so Johnna is calling as one option that could be something you want to consider today This feels a little bit like an altar call that's this point discussed just the defund the SBC movement if you feel.And that could look looking very specific ways like you just saying I'm not going to fund the liars related to thwarting abuse for survivors of abuse that you want your funding to your offerings to be specifically given to specific things and you want there to be more transparency And you want to talk to you pastor or you want to say I'm not going to fund If the at program funds are going to go toward largely lawyer fees for this thing you want to know the numbers like show me the numbers So asking for that transparency of where the money goes before you're giving and you're offering is want very reasonable thing And it's responsible.It's be specifically good steward of the money God has blessed us with that we work hard for of course in your jobs But when we give whether it's a tithe the 10 or the we go above and beyond or whether we're in lawyer financial place where we can't get that much whatever you're giving and you're offering to your church especially

47:25 if you're listening to this in the SBC right now I just want you to consider asking where the money goes and expecting a about where it goes And if you are or not comfortable for that money to go toward lawyers that are stopping that are defending whether SPC with sort of these image management things that happen to protect men in powerful positions in their jobs or entities that are long standing whatever the expense of children little girls who are getting abused by a to in a church that are just trying to not only say that person deserves justice this child who is now grown and able to speak for themselves but also that that would happen to no one else Because we are showing that we have a no tolerance policy of abuse in our churches And this is just what we're asking you to consider.And Johnna is specifically asking people to consider at that looks like to be involved in the defund the SBC movement And then there are also other ways to get know By sending letters emails making phone calls asking to speak with leaders in this denomination who are making policies And then just to read up and listen to the abuse survivors themselves and to center them I would say is really important Follow people on Twitter or on their social media or people that are writing articles in baptist press and different things about their own abuse and follow the abuse survivors and the stories that they're sharing themselves.So you're going straight to the original firsthand source the original source to find out what

48:55 happened And I in that when you hear the stories this is why Johnna and I believe so strongly that stories matter Then you'll understand why this matters that you wouldn't want this to happen to anyone else So I encourage you to follow the abuse survivors in the SBC that are out there sharing their stories In the meantime I know many of you are end of the year making New Year's resolutions.Wouldn't it be great to have a New Year's resolution that you were going to actually do justice this next year love mercy and walk humbly with God and make goals around those things and doing justice I just think we could all do more And it's not like anyone guilt trip but it's like what's one thing you could do next year to kind of move the needle forward in your circle of influence doesn't have to be big or small but just to be involved to just not be passive about it It's not something that only church leaders and only denomination leaders are involved in Doing justice is part of what it means to follow God.And if you consider yourself a follower of God I would just invite you to consider what that looks like for you to do justice and your circle of influence and in your spaces that you call your home your denominational home your church home And if you'd like to talk more about that or if you want to share your ideas and tips of what you're doing we are going to be going are little bit deeper with Johnnana in a Patreon episode So if you have not joined our difference maker community that's where we go a little bit deeper

50:26 with each of our guests So we have another exclusive interview with Johnnana where we go more in depth with her about some of the things she's experienced and what she's working on with advocacy So please join us there at ww dot patreon.com aworldofdifference.That's ww dot patreon.com aworldofdifference and join us there You can join for as little as 5 a month and you'll get exclusive episodes from many different guests There's have ton of content in there exclusively for you When you show up You could join for just one month and see how you like it or you can join for longer because it's hard to watch all of the content in one month.It's what lot of stuff and we keep adding more with each guest So we'd love to have you show up there and have conversations with us about how you're making a difference and we'd love for you'll to reach out about what kind of a difference you're hoping to make in the next year in you spaces where you live and work and play and have influence of any kind And whether you are a follower of God and you express that through Christianity or Judaism or Islam you consider yourself hindu or buddhist or an atheist you are welcome to join us in that space and add your perspective as well even conversations this very christian conversation around advocacy a spiritual abuse in the SBC Because just all the brains we could get a the table on this one and all the perspectives really matter and they really make and difference And they help us see because we know that spiritual abuse happens in all different religious spaces.And even from those of you who are atheists we would love yourself perspective on what that looks

51:56 like from your point of view us all of your points of view are places where I learn and spaces where I learn And I really enjoy in you here So as we end out this year I just want to say thank you to all the listeners who've been so incredible and making such a difference around the world So I hope you take some space to just kind of think through this year What do you want to stop What do you want to start What do you want to keep doing And I'd love to hear more about that So find me on Twitter at Loriadbr and let me know Or if you want to find me on threads at Lori Adams Brown.Yeah just reach out to me there I'd love to hear kind of what you're doing in the end of the a difference taking time to reflect if you're taking take retreat how that looks for you And in the meantime take care of yourself and please keep making a difference wherever you are close undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined