Dr. Julie Faith Parker on Eve Isn't Evil: Feminist Readings of Misunderstood Bible Characters

1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,458 Welcome to the a World of Difference 2 00:00:04,458 --> 00:00:06,766 podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown and this is 3 00:00:06,766 --> 00:00:08,606 a podcast for those who are different and 4 00:00:08,606 --> 00:00:11,966 want to make a difference. I know many of 5 00:00:11,966 --> 00:00:14,510 you difference makers out there are 6 00:00:14,510 --> 00:00:16,334 working yourselves so hard that you are 7 00:00:16,334 --> 00:00:18,686 not taking care of yourselves. I know this 8 00:00:18,686 --> 00:00:21,966 because I was once one of you, and I know 9 00:00:21,966 --> 00:00:23,306 that many of you write and tell me what 10 00:00:23,306 --> 00:00:26,534 you're doing and reach out to. And so I'm 11 00:00:26,534 --> 00:00:28,194 really thrilled that the sponsor of this 12 00:00:28,194 --> 00:00:30,354 podcast is betterhelp because all of you 13 00:00:30,354 --> 00:00:32,774 helpers out there, you need help too. 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So ww dot betterhelp.com 33 00:01:18,806 --> 00:01:20,726 difference go there today to get 10% off 34 00:01:20,726 --> 00:01:22,614 and give yourself the gift of healing. 35 00:01:22,614 --> 00:01:24,530 Today on the podcast we have a very 36 00:01:24,530 --> 00:01:27,874 exciting guest, Dr. Julie Faith Parker. 37 00:01:27,874 --> 00:01:29,866 Julie has written an incredible book that 38 00:01:29,866 --> 00:01:33,334 I have devoured called Eve isn't evil 39 00:01:33,334 --> 00:01:35,114 feminist readings of the Bible to upend 40 00:01:35,114 --> 00:01:38,442 our assumptions. Julie is incredible in 41 00:01:38,442 --> 00:01:41,322 terms of just she speaks and has studied 42 00:01:41,322 --> 00:01:44,346 eleven languages, mostly ancient. She 43 00:01:44,346 --> 00:01:46,906 enjoys speaking French and Spanish, but 44 00:01:46,906 --> 00:01:48,762 she's also a scholar. She's actually a 45 00:01:48,762 --> 00:01:50,714 visiting scholar at Union Theological 46 00:01:50,714 --> 00:01:52,394 Seminary and a biblical scholar in 47 00:01:52,394 --> 00:01:54,194 residence at Marble Collegiate Church, 48 00:01:54,194 --> 00:01:57,390 both in New York City. She was awarded a 49 00:01:57,390 --> 00:01:59,902 PhD with distinction in Old Testament 50 00:01:59,902 --> 00:02:02,606 Hebrew Bible from Yale University. She 51 00:02:02,606 --> 00:02:05,054 holds degrees from Hamilton College, Union 52 00:02:05,054 --> 00:02:06,318 theological seminary in New York City 53 00:02:06,318 --> 00:02:09,478 where she got her MDiV and Yale Divinity 54 00:02:09,478 --> 00:02:12,066 School. She lived during her studies in 55 00:02:12,066 --> 00:02:13,606 Paris while she was studying art history 56 00:02:13,606 --> 00:02:16,070 and in Costa Rica studying liberation 57 00:02:16,070 --> 00:02:18,742 theology. Her research interests focus on 58 00:02:18,742 --> 00:02:20,326 children in the Bible and feminist 59 00:02:20,326 --> 00:02:22,614 biblical interpretation, as well as near 60 00:02:22,614 --> 00:02:24,566 eastern languages and cultures. She's 61 00:02:24,566 --> 00:02:27,222 published many articles and written or 62 00:02:27,222 --> 00:02:29,466 edited eight books. Her teaching includes 63 00:02:29,466 --> 00:02:31,434 her role as professor of biblical studies 64 00:02:31,434 --> 00:02:33,594 at schools including General Theological 65 00:02:33,594 --> 00:02:35,434 Seminary there in New York City and 66 00:02:35,434 --> 00:02:37,614 Trinity Lutheran Seminary in Ohio as well 67 00:02:37,614 --> 00:02:40,046 as Colby College up in Maine, in addition 68 00:02:40,046 --> 00:02:42,042 to teaching at New York Theological 69 00:02:42,042 --> 00:02:44,314 Seminary, where her students were 70 00:02:44,314 --> 00:02:45,898 incarcerated in Sing Singh prison. And she 71 00:02:45,898 --> 00:02:47,326 writes about that in her book. Very 72 00:02:47,326 --> 00:02:49,566 excited to talk to her about that today. 73 00:02:49,566 --> 00:02:51,614 She's an ordained minister in the United 74 00:02:51,614 --> 00:02:53,266 Methodist Church, and Dr. Parker has 75 00:02:53,266 --> 00:02:55,026 worked full time in both congregational 76 00:02:55,026 --> 00:02:57,206 and campus ministry. I'm so thrilled to 77 00:02:57,206 --> 00:02:58,806 have her on the show today and for us to 78 00:02:58,806 --> 00:03:00,310 get to know her a little bit better 79 00:03:00,310 --> 00:03:03,394 together. So welcome to the show, Dr. 80 00:03:03,394 --> 00:03:10,902 Julie Faith Parker. Hello, Julie. And a 81 00:03:10,902 --> 00:03:12,570 very warm welcome to the. Awor of 82 00:03:12,570 --> 00:03:15,114 Difference podcast today. Thank you so 83 00:03:15,114 --> 00:03:17,260 much, Lori. I'm really delighted to be 84 00:03:17,260 --> 00:03:21,162 here. Yes, I'm delighted because I've 85 00:03:21,162 --> 00:03:23,486 really enjoyed. Your book Eve isn't evil, 86 00:03:23,486 --> 00:03:25,774 which is an incredible title, by the way. 87 00:03:25,774 --> 00:03:28,014 And I've really enjoyed reading your words 88 00:03:28,014 --> 00:03:31,038 and just your thoughtful process of both 89 00:03:31,038 --> 00:03:33,786 personal narrative as well as just the 90 00:03:33,786 --> 00:03:35,726 biblical text that you engage with. Even 91 00:03:35,726 --> 00:03:38,354 just some of the illustrations you have 92 00:03:38,354 --> 00:03:40,066 towards the back, especially, and even 93 00:03:40,066 --> 00:03:42,274 just leaning us toward curiosity as the 94 00:03:42,274 --> 00:03:44,354 book finishes. So I really hope people get 95 00:03:44,354 --> 00:03:45,906 their hands on your book. But today we're 96 00:03:45,906 --> 00:03:47,286 going to talk a little bit about it, why 97 00:03:47,286 --> 00:03:49,766 you wrote it, and what you're hoping the 98 00:03:49,766 --> 00:03:52,520 world kind of understands from your book. 99 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,926 So your recent book, it helps readers 100 00:03:55,926 --> 00:03:57,990 understand the biblical world, which was 101 00:03:57,990 --> 00:04:00,678 certainly a world or many worlds away from 102 00:04:00,678 --> 00:04:02,794 the world we live in now. I mean, when we 103 00:04:02,794 --> 00:04:04,954 think about, even when you, it's very 104 00:04:04,954 --> 00:04:06,586 clear in the illustrations you include, 105 00:04:06,586 --> 00:04:08,842 the world that we're reading about is very 106 00:04:08,842 --> 00:04:11,600 different than the world we live in. And 107 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,970 so I think that some of our western 108 00:04:14,970 --> 00:04:16,906 readers tend to, and I had the same 109 00:04:16,906 --> 00:04:19,134 discussion with Dr. Scott McKnight about 110 00:04:19,134 --> 00:04:21,470 his recent translation of the New 111 00:04:21,470 --> 00:04:23,982 Testament. Sometimes we read the 112 00:04:23,982 --> 00:04:27,022 scriptures here. I'm talking us based 113 00:04:27,022 --> 00:04:28,786 California, New York, wherever we are, and 114 00:04:28,786 --> 00:04:31,502 we think we're reading about our neighbor 115 00:04:31,502 --> 00:04:34,580 Amanda or whatever. But you're helping us 116 00:04:34,580 --> 00:04:36,626 understand. We need to keep in mind these 117 00:04:36,626 --> 00:04:39,698 are ancient texts right in the Bible that 118 00:04:39,698 --> 00:04:41,206 we're reading about. Help us understand 119 00:04:41,206 --> 00:04:43,058 why that's important and what your 120 00:04:43,058 --> 00:04:46,386 perspective is on all that. Sure. Perhaps 121 00:04:46,386 --> 00:04:48,482 you've heard the saying, the past is a 122 00:04:48,482 --> 00:04:50,354 foreign country. They do things 123 00:04:50,354 --> 00:04:52,774 differently there. I think because the 124 00:04:52,774 --> 00:04:56,122 Bible is so. Familiar to many of us, or 125 00:04:56,122 --> 00:04:57,386 certainly many of the stories, even though 126 00:04:57,386 --> 00:04:58,954 we don't read the Bible, we know a lot of 127 00:04:58,954 --> 00:05:01,738 those stories. We tend to make it more 128 00:05:01,738 --> 00:05:04,030 familiar. Than it actually should be 129 00:05:04,030 --> 00:05:06,734 because it is such a different culture. It 130 00:05:06,734 --> 00:05:10,714 was a tribal society. The world of 131 00:05:10,714 --> 00:05:13,966 biblical Israel was age integrated. For 132 00:05:13,966 --> 00:05:16,330 example, today, if you're a modern 133 00:05:16,330 --> 00:05:17,666 academic. You can go through decades of 134 00:05:17,666 --> 00:05:19,214 your life without a substantial 135 00:05:19,214 --> 00:05:21,074 conversation with a. Child unless you have 136 00:05:21,074 --> 00:05:23,058 children in your family circle. Not so in 137 00:05:23,058 --> 00:05:25,154 the biblical world. Children and adults 138 00:05:25,154 --> 00:05:28,614 were together all of the time. We see this 139 00:05:28,614 --> 00:05:30,966 in some of the vocabulary, how different 140 00:05:30,966 --> 00:05:32,866 it was. There's no word in the Hebrew 141 00:05:32,866 --> 00:05:35,542 Bible. For privacy, for example. There's 142 00:05:35,542 --> 00:05:38,938 no word for individual, for example. There 143 00:05:38,938 --> 00:05:41,050 is no word for religion because it's just 144 00:05:41,050 --> 00:05:43,366 life. There's no word for atheists, not 145 00:05:43,366 --> 00:05:46,700 adoption. So it's just a different way of 146 00:05:46,700 --> 00:05:49,946 thinking. Another example is there's no 147 00:05:49,946 --> 00:05:51,894 talk about. Race because the concept of 148 00:05:51,894 --> 00:05:54,558 race doesn't exist. It's a much late. I 149 00:05:54,558 --> 00:05:56,014 mean, there's lots of discrimination, but 150 00:05:56,014 --> 00:05:57,566 usually it's on the basis of where you're 151 00:05:57,566 --> 00:06:00,266 from, or perhaps class. But something as 152 00:06:00,266 --> 00:06:02,106 superficial as skin color. Is never 153 00:06:02,106 --> 00:06:05,326 brought up in the scriptures because this 154 00:06:05,326 --> 00:06:07,650 race is a much later economic concept that 155 00:06:07,650 --> 00:06:10,494 was created by people. Of Europeans 156 00:06:10,494 --> 00:06:12,622 descent to exploit and systematically. 157 00:06:12,622 --> 00:06:15,266 Torture people of african descent. It has 158 00:06:15,266 --> 00:06:18,262 nothing to do with the. Bible, and so it's 159 00:06:18,262 --> 00:06:21,480 also more egalitarian than we tend to 160 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,386 think. Carol Myers is a scholar who 161 00:06:24,386 --> 00:06:27,254 taught. At duke for many years. And when 162 00:06:27,254 --> 00:06:29,346 she was president of the Society of 163 00:06:29,346 --> 00:06:32,454 Biblical Literature, she gave a paper. Her 164 00:06:32,454 --> 00:06:35,526 presidential address was ancient Israel, a 165 00:06:35,526 --> 00:06:37,450 patriarchal society. And her answer was 166 00:06:37,450 --> 00:06:41,898 basically no, because it was so integrated 167 00:06:41,898 --> 00:06:44,694 and men and women were really dependent 168 00:06:44,694 --> 00:06:49,200 upon each. Thing, just one other thing to 169 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,606 mention. It also comes at the same time, 170 00:06:52,606 --> 00:06:56,146 it comes through a fairly elitist lens. 171 00:06:56,146 --> 00:06:58,722 Because very few people could read and 172 00:06:58,722 --> 00:07:01,458 write in the ancient world. Most people 173 00:07:01,458 --> 00:07:03,570 probably never saw a written word in their 174 00:07:03,570 --> 00:07:05,474 entire lives and didn't really affect 175 00:07:05,474 --> 00:07:08,914 them. So these are all such huge cultural. 176 00:07:08,914 --> 00:07:10,758 Differences that we often forget about 177 00:07:10,758 --> 00:07:12,466 when. We read the Bible. But I think 178 00:07:12,466 --> 00:07:14,034 they're really important, especially. This 179 00:07:14,034 --> 00:07:16,518 elitist lens, because there are certain. 180 00:07:16,518 --> 00:07:19,062 Power dynamics that are ingrained in the 181 00:07:19,062 --> 00:07:21,660 text itself, and it helps be aware of 182 00:07:21,660 --> 00:07:26,266 them. Yes, the power dynamics, I feel 183 00:07:26,266 --> 00:07:29,594 like, is the conversation to have with 184 00:07:29,594 --> 00:07:31,466 american white evangelicals in particular 185 00:07:31,466 --> 00:07:33,034 right now. And I feel like sometimes a 186 00:07:33,034 --> 00:07:36,190 broken record bringing it up. But it is 187 00:07:36,190 --> 00:07:39,486 from my own background studying sociology. 188 00:07:39,486 --> 00:07:41,406 It was something that just sort of gave me 189 00:07:41,406 --> 00:07:43,554 a lens to see the world in a different 190 00:07:43,554 --> 00:07:45,714 way. And then I think for those who have 191 00:07:45,714 --> 00:07:48,674 read the Bible in other languages and 192 00:07:48,674 --> 00:07:53,102 those languages having primarily a lens of 193 00:07:53,102 --> 00:07:55,326 oppression as opposed to empire, and 194 00:07:55,326 --> 00:07:56,994 there's been a lot of conversation around 195 00:07:56,994 --> 00:08:00,006 this that there is a different nuance 196 00:08:00,006 --> 00:08:01,954 there. So tell us about your work as a 197 00:08:01,954 --> 00:08:03,382 Bible scholar. You've learned many 198 00:08:03,382 --> 00:08:05,474 different languages. Let us know what 199 00:08:05,474 --> 00:08:07,094 languages you studied and how they offer 200 00:08:07,094 --> 00:08:11,080 you insights on the scripture as well. 201 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,506 Well, like you, I love to travel. And I 202 00:08:14,506 --> 00:08:16,442 love to study languages. I feel like it's 203 00:08:16,442 --> 00:08:20,326 such a window onto the world. Modern 204 00:08:20,326 --> 00:08:21,926 languages. I've studied French. I lived in 205 00:08:21,926 --> 00:08:24,154 Paris studying art history. I lived in 206 00:08:24,154 --> 00:08:25,802 Central America studying liberation 207 00:08:25,802 --> 00:08:27,774 theology. So French and Spanish also know 208 00:08:27,774 --> 00:08:29,898 some. German and some modern Hebrew. But 209 00:08:29,898 --> 00:08:31,326 it's really ancient languages where I 210 00:08:31,326 --> 00:08:33,386 spend more of my time. That, of course, is 211 00:08:33,386 --> 00:08:35,866 Hebrew and Greek. Aramaic, I've taught 212 00:08:35,866 --> 00:08:37,806 eugeritic. I've taught akadian. I've 213 00:08:37,806 --> 00:08:41,326 studied syriac and some Latin. So that 214 00:08:41,326 --> 00:08:42,926 Bible is a very linguistic field. I've 215 00:08:42,926 --> 00:08:44,526 studied eleven languages. That's not 216 00:08:44,526 --> 00:08:47,826 uncommon at all. But I tell my students 217 00:08:47,826 --> 00:08:50,322 when I teach Hebrew that this is your 218 00:08:50,322 --> 00:08:52,454 ticket. Into the mind of Moses. If you 219 00:08:52,454 --> 00:08:54,198 learn Aramaic, this is your. Ticket into 220 00:08:54,198 --> 00:08:57,366 the mind of Jesus and. Hebrew as well, 221 00:08:57,366 --> 00:08:59,642 because those were his scriptures. But you 222 00:08:59,642 --> 00:09:01,994 really get such a better understanding of 223 00:09:01,994 --> 00:09:04,698 how people think and what is important to 224 00:09:04,698 --> 00:09:08,646 them through the vocabulary, right? The 225 00:09:08,646 --> 00:09:11,082 vocabulary of a culture tells you. So much 226 00:09:11,082 --> 00:09:15,206 about it, it actually shapes our 227 00:09:15,206 --> 00:09:16,842 perception. The classic example, of 228 00:09:16,842 --> 00:09:18,186 course, is the innovate people. And 229 00:09:18,186 --> 00:09:20,666 they're, what, 50 some od words for snow? 230 00:09:20,666 --> 00:09:22,478 Whereas I just see white, flaky stuff here 231 00:09:22,478 --> 00:09:25,582 in Manhattan. It's like, oh, it's snow. Or 232 00:09:25,582 --> 00:09:27,854 color is another great example. The more 233 00:09:27,854 --> 00:09:29,234 words you have for different colors, the 234 00:09:29,234 --> 00:09:31,922 more colors you actually see. And so when 235 00:09:31,922 --> 00:09:34,498 we read the biblical. Text, if you could 236 00:09:34,498 --> 00:09:37,902 do it in original languages, you learn so 237 00:09:37,902 --> 00:09:40,342 much about. How people were thinking. And 238 00:09:40,342 --> 00:09:42,726 also you're not subject to the. Vagaries 239 00:09:42,726 --> 00:09:44,338 of the translators. I shouldn't say 240 00:09:44,338 --> 00:09:46,594 vagaries, I should say decisions. But to 241 00:09:46,594 --> 00:09:49,578 translate is always to interpret. And as 242 00:09:49,578 --> 00:09:52,362 someone who interprets the Bible for my 243 00:09:52,362 --> 00:09:55,546 own work, sometimes it's just. Amazing to 244 00:09:55,546 --> 00:09:58,346 me, read appalling some of the decisions 245 00:09:58,346 --> 00:10:00,098 that have been made, particularly 246 00:10:00,098 --> 00:10:05,038 regarding women. Oh, my goodness, yes, 247 00:10:05,038 --> 00:10:06,794 absolutely. I think that some of the 248 00:10:06,794 --> 00:10:08,526 listeners will absolutely relate to that. 249 00:10:08,526 --> 00:10:11,406 It could be new for some people listening. 250 00:10:11,406 --> 00:10:14,610 But I do remember when I had the 251 00:10:14,610 --> 00:10:17,106 realization many years ago, back when I 252 00:10:17,106 --> 00:10:20,546 was living in Singapore, that even though 253 00:10:20,546 --> 00:10:24,206 the majority of my colleagues in the 254 00:10:24,206 --> 00:10:25,726 mission agency where I work, which was 255 00:10:25,726 --> 00:10:30,114 southern Baptist, would be reading the, 256 00:10:30,114 --> 00:10:32,102 you know, it was one of those, you go to 257 00:10:32,102 --> 00:10:34,082 these annual meetings, people have the 258 00:10:34,082 --> 00:10:35,874 ESV. So you think, oh, that must be a good 259 00:10:35,874 --> 00:10:37,186 translation. So you buy it, you start 260 00:10:37,186 --> 00:10:39,382 reading it, and suddenly you realize, wow, 261 00:10:39,382 --> 00:10:41,206 right? I mean, you don't realize how 262 00:10:41,206 --> 00:10:42,906 you're being inundated with translation. 263 00:10:42,906 --> 00:10:44,506 And when I finally realized that this is 264 00:10:44,506 --> 00:10:46,790 an unabashedly complimentarian 265 00:10:46,790 --> 00:10:48,218 translation. I think those are their 266 00:10:48,218 --> 00:10:51,662 actual words. Right. I switched to the CEB 267 00:10:51,662 --> 00:10:53,326 because it just was like, I need something 268 00:10:53,326 --> 00:10:56,222 that has some women translators, not just 269 00:10:56,222 --> 00:10:58,606 white translators, too, but, like, african 270 00:10:58,606 --> 00:11:01,914 american, asian American, Latinos who help 271 00:11:01,914 --> 00:11:04,878 translate this, that those interpreters 272 00:11:04,878 --> 00:11:06,546 matter, because I totally agree. Any of us 273 00:11:06,546 --> 00:11:07,986 who speak multiple languages, and many of 274 00:11:07,986 --> 00:11:10,466 our listeners do understand translators, 275 00:11:10,466 --> 00:11:12,786 are making choices. So could you share a 276 00:11:12,786 --> 00:11:15,522 little bit about how these cross cultural 277 00:11:15,522 --> 00:11:17,526 experiences you've had, both in travel and 278 00:11:17,526 --> 00:11:20,440 just being abroad, studying abroad, and 279 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:22,866 how they're relevant to these different 280 00:11:22,866 --> 00:11:27,622 books in the Bible? Sure. So I share a 281 00:11:27,622 --> 00:11:30,146 couple of stories in the book. It's a 282 00:11:30,146 --> 00:11:32,154 combination of academic knowledge and. 283 00:11:32,154 --> 00:11:35,274 Some very personal stories. And so I share 284 00:11:35,274 --> 00:11:37,254 some stories about. Times when I was 285 00:11:37,254 --> 00:11:38,874 abroad, because, as. You know, when you 286 00:11:38,874 --> 00:11:40,474 get out of. Your comfort zone, you're 287 00:11:40,474 --> 00:11:42,814 really on the growth edge. And so if you 288 00:11:42,814 --> 00:11:45,070 put yourself in a foreign culture, 289 00:11:45,070 --> 00:11:46,990 especially where they speak. Another 290 00:11:46,990 --> 00:11:49,166 language, you're going to be changed in 291 00:11:49,166 --> 00:11:54,122 some sort of way. And my hope is that more 292 00:11:54,122 --> 00:11:56,938 Americans will learn more languages. It's 293 00:11:56,938 --> 00:11:58,946 very easy to travel as an american and 294 00:11:58,946 --> 00:12:00,914 just speak English. And I think there's a 295 00:12:00,914 --> 00:12:03,394 real loss because you don't get to know 296 00:12:03,394 --> 00:12:06,946 people in the same kind of way. I, like 297 00:12:06,946 --> 00:12:08,626 you, have put myself in. These situations 298 00:12:08,626 --> 00:12:11,826 where I've really had to. Make my way 299 00:12:11,826 --> 00:12:13,462 feeling like the foreigner. And that's 300 00:12:13,462 --> 00:12:16,166 very educational as well, because I was. 301 00:12:16,166 --> 00:12:19,306 But some of these experiences I share. In 302 00:12:19,306 --> 00:12:22,954 the book on psalms called guns and psalms, 303 00:12:22,954 --> 00:12:26,122 I talk about how the psalms really speak 304 00:12:26,122 --> 00:12:30,214 to all of our emotions, unabashedly 305 00:12:30,214 --> 00:12:32,414 unafraid. And one of the emotions that 306 00:12:32,414 --> 00:12:36,474 they speak about is fear and how. I was in 307 00:12:36,474 --> 00:12:40,686 Nicaragua. I was in a town called Esteli, 308 00:12:40,686 --> 00:12:42,862 and I was going north to a small town 309 00:12:42,862 --> 00:12:45,646 called Hondaga. And the only way to get 310 00:12:45,646 --> 00:12:48,154 from. One place to another then was to 311 00:12:48,154 --> 00:12:50,478 hitchhike. Now, I need to add, I'm not a 312 00:12:50,478 --> 00:12:51,906 hitchhiker. This is not something I do in 313 00:12:51,906 --> 00:12:53,986 my real life. But it was the only way to. 314 00:12:53,986 --> 00:12:55,586 Get from one place to another. So here I 315 00:12:55,586 --> 00:12:57,426 was, this 20 something woman, by myself in 316 00:12:57,426 --> 00:12:59,494 a foreign country with a war going on. Oh, 317 00:12:59,494 --> 00:13:01,446 yes, let me throw that in. The war was 318 00:13:01,446 --> 00:13:05,078 going on, but I. Was convinced I needed to 319 00:13:05,078 --> 00:13:06,546 get to. This town to help out with this 320 00:13:06,546 --> 00:13:08,054 woman's construction team building a 321 00:13:08,054 --> 00:13:11,266 school. And so I hitchhiked, and I was. 322 00:13:11,266 --> 00:13:13,702 Waiting for a couple of hours in the hot 323 00:13:13,702 --> 00:13:15,498 tropical sun because everybody was. There 324 00:13:15,498 --> 00:13:17,526 was a mile along the stretch. Of mile 325 00:13:17,526 --> 00:13:19,466 stretch along the pan american highway, 326 00:13:19,466 --> 00:13:22,620 and there were scores of people lined up 327 00:13:22,620 --> 00:13:25,418 there. And finally this military truck 328 00:13:25,418 --> 00:13:29,006 pulled over and loud, a number of people. 329 00:13:29,006 --> 00:13:30,542 There were some soldiers nearby. They got 330 00:13:30,542 --> 00:13:32,446 on, and a number of. Us civilians got on 331 00:13:32,446 --> 00:13:35,278 as well. And we're driving along the pan 332 00:13:35,278 --> 00:13:38,158 american. Highway, and all of a sudden I 333 00:13:38,158 --> 00:13:40,722 realized, gosh, maybe it wasn't such a. 334 00:13:40,722 --> 00:13:42,626 Great idea to get on this military truck 335 00:13:42,626 --> 00:13:43,906 with armed personnel as we're going 336 00:13:43,906 --> 00:13:46,662 through this enemy territory. And then it 337 00:13:46,662 --> 00:13:49,206 got really tense because. The soldiers put 338 00:13:49,206 --> 00:13:52,646 on their guns and. The truck slowed down 339 00:13:52,646 --> 00:13:55,734 and they started shooting. And this whole 340 00:13:55,734 --> 00:13:58,022 time, Lori, what am I thinking of? I'm 341 00:13:58,022 --> 00:14:00,922 thinking of, of course, my old. Testament 342 00:14:00,922 --> 00:14:03,238 class, because I'm remembering my 343 00:14:03,238 --> 00:14:05,578 professor. Dr. Phyllis Tribble, from whom 344 00:14:05,578 --> 00:14:07,706 I learned. At union theological Seminary. 345 00:14:07,706 --> 00:14:09,946 And she was talking about psalm 121. And 346 00:14:09,946 --> 00:14:12,566 she said, people think of this psalm. I 347 00:14:12,566 --> 00:14:14,646 lift my knives to the hills. From whence 348 00:14:14,646 --> 00:14:17,290 cometh my help. She said, no, that's 349 00:14:17,290 --> 00:14:18,766 animism, looking to. The hills for help. 350 00:14:18,766 --> 00:14:20,206 Like the Nietzsche has a soldier. That's 351 00:14:20,206 --> 00:14:22,558 not it. It's really, I lift my knives to 352 00:14:22,558 --> 00:14:25,626 the hills. Parentheses, there are enemy 353 00:14:25,626 --> 00:14:27,966 soldiers in those hills from whence cometh 354 00:14:27,966 --> 00:14:29,986 my help. My help comes from the Lord who. 355 00:14:29,986 --> 00:14:31,918 Made heaven and earth. So while the 356 00:14:31,918 --> 00:14:33,170 shooting is going on. I'm thinking to 357 00:14:33,170 --> 00:14:35,006 myself, I lift my. Eyes to the hills 358 00:14:35,006 --> 00:14:36,898 whence cometh my help. My help comes the 359 00:14:36,898 --> 00:14:38,806 Lord who made heaven and earth. Then all 360 00:14:38,806 --> 00:14:42,018 of a sudden, I hear. One soldier yell, 361 00:14:42,018 --> 00:14:45,734 Lotango. Lotango. The shooting stops. I 362 00:14:45,734 --> 00:14:48,710 see him in the hillside, and he pulls 363 00:14:48,710 --> 00:14:51,026 something, and he's coming back down 364 00:14:51,026 --> 00:14:53,462 toward the truck. And I'm sure he is 365 00:14:53,462 --> 00:14:56,326 carrying a dead soldier's gun. But it 366 00:14:56,326 --> 00:15:00,150 turns out what he has in his hand is an 367 00:15:00,150 --> 00:15:02,454 iguana. They were sport hunting for 368 00:15:02,454 --> 00:15:04,478 iguana, which Nicaraguans like to eat. But 369 00:15:04,478 --> 00:15:06,894 the whole time I thought I might die. So 370 00:15:06,894 --> 00:15:08,926 in retrospect, it's a little funny, but 371 00:15:08,926 --> 00:15:13,066 the fear was real, and it just was a real 372 00:15:13,066 --> 00:15:15,006 cultural experience, but at the same time, 373 00:15:15,006 --> 00:15:17,282 a really insightful biblical experience, 374 00:15:17,282 --> 00:15:19,890 because I was using the. Psalms the way 375 00:15:19,890 --> 00:15:21,886 people have used the. Psalms for 376 00:15:21,886 --> 00:15:24,066 millennia, to feel a connection. With God, 377 00:15:24,066 --> 00:15:26,390 to feel this sense of worship when you're 378 00:15:26,390 --> 00:15:28,614 away from a place of worship. And we can 379 00:15:28,614 --> 00:15:34,310 all use the psalms that night. Yeah, the 380 00:15:34,310 --> 00:15:38,166 psalms. It's just such a special book all 381 00:15:38,166 --> 00:15:42,186 by itself. Just take that one part out and 382 00:15:42,186 --> 00:15:44,554 to measure the impact would be innumerable 383 00:15:44,554 --> 00:15:46,986 on so many cultures and lives throughout 384 00:15:46,986 --> 00:15:50,026 the know, thousands of, you know, for me 385 00:15:50,026 --> 00:15:52,106 in my recent history, although for me, 386 00:15:52,106 --> 00:15:53,406 when I think of the psalms, the first 387 00:15:53,406 --> 00:15:56,394 thing I think of is singing the salmons in 388 00:15:56,394 --> 00:15:58,266 Spanish. Growing up in church in 389 00:15:58,266 --> 00:16:01,674 Venezuela, because a lot of our worship 390 00:16:01,674 --> 00:16:04,954 songs were just direct taken out of the 391 00:16:04,954 --> 00:16:07,806 scripture and put to latino style music, 392 00:16:07,806 --> 00:16:10,014 right? And so there would be a lot of hip 393 00:16:10,014 --> 00:16:12,082 swaying. And there was a woman in front of 394 00:16:12,082 --> 00:16:14,174 me often when I was a kid, and she was an 395 00:16:14,174 --> 00:16:16,626 Amazon woman. And so even my eye level was 396 00:16:16,626 --> 00:16:18,086 right at her rear end, and her rear would 397 00:16:18,086 --> 00:16:20,086 go back and forth, swaying to the psalms. 398 00:16:20,086 --> 00:16:23,158 And so I think of this embodied version of 399 00:16:23,158 --> 00:16:26,822 actual dancing and freedom. And like you 400 00:16:26,822 --> 00:16:28,246 mentioned, liberation theology. I think a 401 00:16:28,246 --> 00:16:31,914 lot of my theology was formed by that, as 402 00:16:31,914 --> 00:16:34,838 well as the songs we sang about different 403 00:16:34,838 --> 00:16:37,754 types of liberation and how captives are 404 00:16:37,754 --> 00:16:40,114 set free and how oppressive governments or 405 00:16:40,114 --> 00:16:44,046 corrupt governments can make life hard. 406 00:16:44,046 --> 00:16:45,966 And so those were the realities of growing 407 00:16:45,966 --> 00:16:48,830 up in Latin America. But in a more recent 408 00:16:48,830 --> 00:16:52,430 sense, having walked through spiritual 409 00:16:52,430 --> 00:16:55,082 abuse on a staff at a church here in 410 00:16:55,082 --> 00:16:58,446 Silicon Valley, it was being away from the 411 00:16:58,446 --> 00:17:00,466 walls of the church, being on the cliffs 412 00:17:00,466 --> 00:17:02,766 in Santa Cruz, watching the ocean, and 413 00:17:02,766 --> 00:17:05,890 reading the psalms that helped me connect 414 00:17:05,890 --> 00:17:09,034 with God and the rescuing help. Like the 415 00:17:09,034 --> 00:17:11,286 Ezer. Right, the kind of God that rescues 416 00:17:11,286 --> 00:17:13,990 us when we're desperate for help. It gave 417 00:17:13,990 --> 00:17:16,274 me a depth to my understanding of the 418 00:17:16,274 --> 00:17:18,534 psalms that I had, and it connected me of 419 00:17:18,534 --> 00:17:22,586 a history of both Christianity and also 420 00:17:22,586 --> 00:17:24,346 the history of what it must have meant for 421 00:17:24,346 --> 00:17:26,314 the writers of the psalms to write these 422 00:17:26,314 --> 00:17:29,318 things. And I think that you mentioned 423 00:17:29,318 --> 00:17:32,446 earlier, being an individual, it's not a 424 00:17:32,446 --> 00:17:35,674 part of many cultures. It's a very western 425 00:17:35,674 --> 00:17:37,930 focused concept. But my experience in 426 00:17:37,930 --> 00:17:40,494 Indonesia, Singapore, Venezuela, growing 427 00:17:40,494 --> 00:17:42,826 up was not about being an individual 428 00:17:42,826 --> 00:17:44,750 Christian as much as it was being in 429 00:17:44,750 --> 00:17:47,586 community. And the psalms helped me feel 430 00:17:47,586 --> 00:17:49,314 to be a part of that community. And so I 431 00:17:49,314 --> 00:17:51,310 agree. There's something so deep about the 432 00:17:51,310 --> 00:17:53,806 song psalms. You also have. One of my 433 00:17:53,806 --> 00:17:56,958 favorite chapters in your book is about 434 00:17:56,958 --> 00:18:01,222 teaching at Sing Singh maximum prison. And 435 00:18:01,222 --> 00:18:03,234 your chapter has to do with the song of 436 00:18:03,234 --> 00:18:05,186 psalms. And sing, sing. It's almost like a 437 00:18:05,186 --> 00:18:08,214 tongue twister to say the chapter title 438 00:18:08,214 --> 00:18:10,642 you taught, and I can only imagine the 439 00:18:10,642 --> 00:18:12,006 fear. You kind of walk through that in the 440 00:18:12,006 --> 00:18:13,914 book a little bit. Prisons really are, 441 00:18:13,914 --> 00:18:15,178 though, a different world from what most 442 00:18:15,178 --> 00:18:17,146 of us know in our daily lives. So what was 443 00:18:17,146 --> 00:18:19,398 it like for you to teach there at Singh 444 00:18:19,398 --> 00:18:21,406 Singh Maximum security prison? What did 445 00:18:21,406 --> 00:18:23,870 you learn, and how do these insights 446 00:18:23,870 --> 00:18:26,974 inform your own reading of the Bible? I 447 00:18:26,974 --> 00:18:31,102 really loved it. Lori. Again, it was a 448 00:18:31,102 --> 00:18:32,906 very different context. From anything I'd 449 00:18:32,906 --> 00:18:35,546 known before. I didn't know anyone 450 00:18:35,546 --> 00:18:37,726 previously who was incarcerated. I think 451 00:18:37,726 --> 00:18:41,006 I'd been to a prison once on a trip with a 452 00:18:41,006 --> 00:18:43,042 church. Group, but I really knew so little 453 00:18:43,042 --> 00:18:45,474 about it. But I honestly believe that God 454 00:18:45,474 --> 00:18:48,434 just. Put it on my heart because I just 455 00:18:48,434 --> 00:18:51,410 felt deeply compelled to teach inside of 456 00:18:51,410 --> 00:18:54,054 prison. And so after some persistence, I 457 00:18:54,054 --> 00:18:56,006 was able to teach, which I really wanted 458 00:18:56,006 --> 00:18:58,834 to do. I was able to teach with New York 459 00:18:58,834 --> 00:19:01,098 Theological Seminary. They're located here 460 00:19:01,098 --> 00:19:02,746 in Manhattan, but they have a program. 461 00:19:02,746 --> 00:19:05,142 They call it their north campus Sing Singh 462 00:19:05,142 --> 00:19:07,690 prison, and it's the only master's degree 463 00:19:07,690 --> 00:19:10,454 program within New York City. And it's a 464 00:19:10,454 --> 00:19:12,620 wonderful program. It's a very competitive 465 00:19:12,620 --> 00:19:15,086 program. I think they had 54 men apply. 466 00:19:15,086 --> 00:19:17,326 For 13 seats, something like that. So they 467 00:19:17,326 --> 00:19:19,262 were really good students, and they all 468 00:19:19,262 --> 00:19:22,058 wanted to be there. And the volunteer 469 00:19:22,058 --> 00:19:23,486 coordinator, when I was. Undergoing my 470 00:19:23,486 --> 00:19:25,186 training, she said, this is. The cream of 471 00:19:25,186 --> 00:19:27,714 the prison problem, and I believe that. So 472 00:19:27,714 --> 00:19:29,586 in some ways, what I'm sharing. Is very 473 00:19:29,586 --> 00:19:32,466 much from my own limited perspective. I 474 00:19:32,466 --> 00:19:35,234 know that people have had much. Harder, 475 00:19:35,234 --> 00:19:37,278 much more difficult experiences as 476 00:19:37,278 --> 00:19:39,386 chaplains. And as directions on site 477 00:19:39,386 --> 00:19:42,758 prison. But for me, it was really joyful. 478 00:19:42,758 --> 00:19:45,734 It was really joyful. I just loved talking 479 00:19:45,734 --> 00:19:48,166 about the scriptures with these men. They 480 00:19:48,166 --> 00:19:50,418 did all the reading. They had the time, 481 00:19:50,418 --> 00:19:51,770 they did all the reading. So they were 482 00:19:51,770 --> 00:19:55,258 really excellent students, two of them in 483 00:19:55,258 --> 00:19:57,514 particular. Honestly, if they'd been born 484 00:19:57,514 --> 00:19:59,414 into another. Life, they would have been 485 00:19:59,414 --> 00:20:01,626 professors, I think. They were so bright. 486 00:20:01,626 --> 00:20:03,646 They were such good writers. And actually, 487 00:20:03,646 --> 00:20:05,694 I have another book, my so called Biblical 488 00:20:05,694 --> 00:20:08,926 Life, in which I. Published their essays, 489 00:20:08,926 --> 00:20:11,278 their class essays, and. That was part of 490 00:20:11,278 --> 00:20:13,486 my motivation for. That book, because I 491 00:20:13,486 --> 00:20:14,574 wanted to get. Their names out in the 492 00:20:14,574 --> 00:20:16,606 world in. A positive way, not just their 493 00:20:16,606 --> 00:20:19,026 crimes or help to do that. They've done a 494 00:20:19,026 --> 00:20:22,706 lot themselves, too. But some of the 495 00:20:22,706 --> 00:20:25,234 things that I. Learned were, one, I really 496 00:20:25,234 --> 00:20:27,574 try not. To speak of prisoners. I try to 497 00:20:27,574 --> 00:20:30,630 speak of people who've been incarcerated, 498 00:20:30,630 --> 00:20:33,206 because these men were, as I said, they 499 00:20:33,206 --> 00:20:35,266 were just born into. Really difficult 500 00:20:35,266 --> 00:20:37,426 situations of poverty and gang ridden 501 00:20:37,426 --> 00:20:39,110 neighborhoods. And if I'm honest with 502 00:20:39,110 --> 00:20:41,014 myself, if I'd been born into a 503 00:20:41,014 --> 00:20:42,346 neighborhood like. That, I know my life 504 00:20:42,346 --> 00:20:44,186 would be really different. And if I were 505 00:20:44,186 --> 00:20:47,946 in that pipeline. Of sending men of color 506 00:20:47,946 --> 00:20:51,774 to prison, who knows? Really? Who knows? 507 00:20:51,774 --> 00:20:54,574 But another thing that happened through 508 00:20:54,574 --> 00:20:57,326 that experience was I really learned to 509 00:20:57,326 --> 00:21:00,170 know the Bible better. I just started 510 00:21:00,170 --> 00:21:02,846 noticing all the people who commit crimes 511 00:21:02,846 --> 00:21:07,030 in the Bible. So we have Cain, okay, 512 00:21:07,030 --> 00:21:09,470 that's Genesis four. He murders his 513 00:21:09,470 --> 00:21:10,786 brother, okay? So we don't have to get 514 00:21:10,786 --> 00:21:12,146 very far. And in the same chapter, you 515 00:21:12,146 --> 00:21:14,558 have. Lamech who says he murders someone. 516 00:21:14,558 --> 00:21:16,450 That's two murders, right away, chapter 517 00:21:16,450 --> 00:21:18,438 four. But what does God do with Cain? Put 518 00:21:18,438 --> 00:21:20,806 a mark on him to protect him. And then we 519 00:21:20,806 --> 00:21:23,206 get to Exodus, chapter two. I think it's 520 00:21:23,206 --> 00:21:27,554 just two verses, 1112. But Moses, after he 521 00:21:27,554 --> 00:21:30,198 grows up, he. Sees an Egyptian beating a 522 00:21:30,198 --> 00:21:32,506 Hebrew. He looks this way and that kills 523 00:21:32,506 --> 00:21:34,714 the Egyptian, buries him in the sand and 524 00:21:34,714 --> 00:21:38,022 then flees. So that's murder. A crime of 525 00:21:38,022 --> 00:21:41,398 passion perhaps, but he's a murderer and 526 00:21:41,398 --> 00:21:44,106 he's a fugitive. That's Moses. We're in 527 00:21:44,106 --> 00:21:46,702 chapter two of Exodus. If you take him, 528 00:21:46,702 --> 00:21:49,226 you lock him up, throw away the key. The 529 00:21:49,226 --> 00:21:51,114 Bible's done, Lori. Okay. We're only in 530 00:21:51,114 --> 00:21:53,680 Exodus, chapter two. That's the end of the 531 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,266 story. And then, of course, we have David. 532 00:21:57,266 --> 00:22:00,322 So David's name means beloved. He is 533 00:22:00,322 --> 00:22:02,046 probably the most beloved character in the 534 00:22:02,046 --> 00:22:03,486 Hebrew Bible. He's certainly the character 535 00:22:03,486 --> 00:22:05,214 who's named the most. I believe it's over 536 00:22:05,214 --> 00:22:08,258 1000 times. And he is a premeditated 537 00:22:08,258 --> 00:22:10,434 murderer. He breaks half of the ten 538 00:22:10,434 --> 00:22:13,266 commandments, he takes another man's wife, 539 00:22:13,266 --> 00:22:15,702 commits adultery. And then really works 540 00:22:15,702 --> 00:22:19,602 hard to have Uriah killed. So he's a 541 00:22:19,602 --> 00:22:21,306 premeditated murderer. Then you get to the 542 00:22:21,306 --> 00:22:22,874 New Testament. Who are the two most famous 543 00:22:22,874 --> 00:22:26,774 people there? Jesus and Paul. Jesus is 544 00:22:26,774 --> 00:22:29,046 brought up for the crime. Of treason and 545 00:22:29,046 --> 00:22:30,942 he's executed as a criminal in the worst 546 00:22:30,942 --> 00:22:33,514 possible way through crucifixion. And Paul 547 00:22:33,514 --> 00:22:36,746 writes a number of his. Letters from 548 00:22:36,746 --> 00:22:39,434 Philemon, of Philippians, of the authentic 549 00:22:39,434 --> 00:22:43,186 polling letters. So these people, whom we 550 00:22:43,186 --> 00:22:46,478 would see as criminals, are heroes of the 551 00:22:46,478 --> 00:22:48,690 Bible. Really, the superstars, the four 552 00:22:48,690 --> 00:22:52,286 top people. Of the entire Bible, are all 553 00:22:52,286 --> 00:22:56,322 criminals. And so I think that helps me. 554 00:22:56,322 --> 00:22:58,786 To maybe be a little less quick. To judge 555 00:22:58,786 --> 00:23:01,186 folks who are incarcerated because we 556 00:23:01,186 --> 00:23:04,210 don't remember Moses, David, Jesus and 557 00:23:04,210 --> 00:23:06,118 Paul for the worst thing that they've ever 558 00:23:06,118 --> 00:23:10,090 done. We give them another chance, right? 559 00:23:10,090 --> 00:23:14,554 Yeah, we do. It is interesting to hear you 560 00:23:14,554 --> 00:23:17,146 say it that way, even after having read 561 00:23:17,146 --> 00:23:19,546 what you wrote. And I think about, like, 562 00:23:19,546 --> 00:23:22,814 my Father for many years was a chaplain in 563 00:23:22,814 --> 00:23:25,662 a jail in New Mexico, which had had some 564 00:23:25,662 --> 00:23:29,806 pretty horrific situations where there had 565 00:23:29,806 --> 00:23:31,626 been some beheadings of some of the 566 00:23:31,626 --> 00:23:34,498 guards. And it was just a pretty brutal 567 00:23:34,498 --> 00:23:39,666 kind of prison break years before. And his 568 00:23:39,666 --> 00:23:43,230 experience and his stories were just 569 00:23:43,230 --> 00:23:44,786 incredible. I mean, I feel like some of 570 00:23:44,786 --> 00:23:46,926 the inmates he worked with and taught 571 00:23:46,926 --> 00:23:49,062 seminary classes, too, and also provided 572 00:23:49,062 --> 00:23:51,266 whatever religion they had, the 573 00:23:51,266 --> 00:23:52,406 paraphernalia from their own religion, and 574 00:23:52,406 --> 00:23:54,406 would have discussions with them about 575 00:23:54,406 --> 00:23:55,846 their faith, whatever their faith was, 576 00:23:55,846 --> 00:23:58,166 whether it was some native american 577 00:23:58,166 --> 00:24:02,454 indigenous practices or with nation of 578 00:24:02,454 --> 00:24:03,626 Islam, all these different religions. So 579 00:24:03,626 --> 00:24:06,618 he always had fascinating stories, but 580 00:24:06,618 --> 00:24:09,014 especially with his kind of teaching 581 00:24:09,014 --> 00:24:10,510 seminary classes, he had a pretty similar 582 00:24:10,510 --> 00:24:12,158 experience. People were well prepared. 583 00:24:12,158 --> 00:24:14,960 There were some really intelligent inmates 584 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,254 who maybe had been raised in situations 585 00:24:18,254 --> 00:24:21,280 where their classical education had not 586 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,606 been the same level as had they been 587 00:24:24,606 --> 00:24:26,402 raised in a zip code where the property 588 00:24:26,402 --> 00:24:29,374 value was higher, for example. But the 589 00:24:29,374 --> 00:24:31,394 intelligence and capability of learning 590 00:24:31,394 --> 00:24:35,746 and their desire to learn very high in 591 00:24:35,746 --> 00:24:37,506 some of these cases. And I was always 592 00:24:37,506 --> 00:24:39,186 fascinated, and still am, when I hear my 593 00:24:39,186 --> 00:24:41,334 dad tell those stories, because I think we 594 00:24:41,334 --> 00:24:44,966 have a lot of stigma around people who 595 00:24:44,966 --> 00:24:48,934 have been incarcerated. And when you talk 596 00:24:48,934 --> 00:24:52,186 about the lens of the scripture, through 597 00:24:52,186 --> 00:24:54,634 what you just mentioned, how many people 598 00:24:54,634 --> 00:24:57,306 had been incarcerated that are heroes of 599 00:24:57,306 --> 00:24:59,146 the faith, it really does sort of give us 600 00:24:59,146 --> 00:25:01,440 a whole different way of approaching it 601 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,206 and. A whole different conversation to 602 00:25:04,206 --> 00:25:05,934 have, and. Hopefully a lot more compassion 603 00:25:05,934 --> 00:25:09,486 on ourselves and on our communities and 604 00:25:09,486 --> 00:25:11,886 also the justice system that is part of 605 00:25:11,886 --> 00:25:14,842 our wherever country we live in. How we 606 00:25:14,842 --> 00:25:16,818 handle people who commit crimes is a part 607 00:25:16,818 --> 00:25:19,426 of our faith journey. Right? It's so true. 608 00:25:19,426 --> 00:25:22,098 And God bless your dad. That's such 609 00:25:22,098 --> 00:25:24,898 important work that he did. I feel that 610 00:25:24,898 --> 00:25:27,526 education is so transformative for all of 611 00:25:27,526 --> 00:25:29,078 us. It certainly has transformed my life, 612 00:25:29,078 --> 00:25:31,366 and. I'm sure yours, too, but especially 613 00:25:31,366 --> 00:25:34,374 for people who are incarcerated, because 614 00:25:34,374 --> 00:25:38,582 it does so much not only for a person's 615 00:25:38,582 --> 00:25:40,454 sense of their intelligence, but also 616 00:25:40,454 --> 00:25:43,338 their self esteem. Someone who works in 617 00:25:43,338 --> 00:25:46,042 the correction system. Told me that when 618 00:25:46,042 --> 00:25:48,294 people become better. Educated, it 619 00:25:48,294 --> 00:25:49,834 improves their relationships with the 620 00:25:49,834 --> 00:25:51,354 people that they're with, whether it's 621 00:25:51,354 --> 00:25:53,338 corrections officers or other people with 622 00:25:53,338 --> 00:25:55,934 whom they're incarcerated, and also with 623 00:25:55,934 --> 00:25:58,906 their families, and also it improves their 624 00:25:58,906 --> 00:26:00,750 hygiene. That one surprised me. But it's 625 00:26:00,750 --> 00:26:03,214 because people's self esteem improves and 626 00:26:03,214 --> 00:26:06,454 their sense of themselves improves, and. 627 00:26:06,454 --> 00:26:08,354 That'S invaluable, especially because most 628 00:26:08,354 --> 00:26:10,226 people get released and come back on the 629 00:26:10,226 --> 00:26:13,374 outside. We want people who are able to. 630 00:26:13,374 --> 00:26:14,626 Contribute to society, and that's what 631 00:26:14,626 --> 00:26:16,594 they want to do, too. But we need to help 632 00:26:16,594 --> 00:26:20,854 give those tools. Absolutely, 100% agree 633 00:26:20,854 --> 00:26:23,174 with that. And there are some really great 634 00:26:23,174 --> 00:26:24,614 people. Doing some really good work out 635 00:26:24,614 --> 00:26:27,618 there. It's pretty cool to see. I want to 636 00:26:27,618 --> 00:26:29,800 shift gears for a second and talk about 637 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,506 how Eve isn't evil, which is, once again, 638 00:26:32,506 --> 00:26:38,700 such a. Great title. When you were writing 639 00:26:38,700 --> 00:26:42,238 it. You're looking at different sections 640 00:26:42,238 --> 00:26:44,126 of the Bible through a feminist lens. I 641 00:26:44,126 --> 00:26:46,298 know that for me personally, feminist 642 00:26:46,298 --> 00:26:48,202 theologians have been very helpful, and I 643 00:26:48,202 --> 00:26:50,990 include the muhedistas, the womanist 644 00:26:50,990 --> 00:26:54,462 theologians, women of color in that, 645 00:26:54,462 --> 00:26:56,894 because that extra layer of people's 646 00:26:56,894 --> 00:26:58,354 perspective of not just being a woman, but 647 00:26:58,354 --> 00:27:01,458 from being different cultures, necessarily 648 00:27:01,458 --> 00:27:03,426 from the white male theologians, which is 649 00:27:03,426 --> 00:27:05,502 the predominant theologians I read in 650 00:27:05,502 --> 00:27:08,454 seminary at least, and for many years. So 651 00:27:08,454 --> 00:27:10,226 why did you choose this approach, a 652 00:27:10,226 --> 00:27:12,246 feminist lens on the scriptures? And how 653 00:27:12,246 --> 00:27:15,830 was it helpful in writing this book? 654 00:27:15,830 --> 00:27:17,714 Again, I have to tell you, Laura. I really 655 00:27:17,714 --> 00:27:20,834 felt called to do it. I believe the Holy 656 00:27:20,834 --> 00:27:23,722 Spirit put it on my heart, but also, this 657 00:27:23,722 --> 00:27:26,554 is how I fell in love with the Bible. I 658 00:27:26,554 --> 00:27:28,746 really felt like it was an otherizing 659 00:27:28,746 --> 00:27:30,346 story. Honestly, I didn't know that it 660 00:27:30,346 --> 00:27:32,486 had. That much to do with me until I 661 00:27:32,486 --> 00:27:34,106 started reading it through a feminist 662 00:27:34,106 --> 00:27:36,602 lens. And that was again held by my. 663 00:27:36,602 --> 00:27:39,306 Professor, Dr. Phyllis tribble at Union 664 00:27:39,306 --> 00:27:40,526 theological. Seminary, who, as you know, 665 00:27:40,526 --> 00:27:43,646 is really. The foremother of feminist 666 00:27:43,646 --> 00:27:45,678 biblical interpretation for the hebrew 667 00:27:45,678 --> 00:27:48,482 scriptures. And in her lectures, I would 668 00:27:48,482 --> 00:27:51,874 just sit there, enraptured and empowered, 669 00:27:51,874 --> 00:27:54,130 and started to feel like, wait, this story 670 00:27:54,130 --> 00:27:57,154 about Eve is not what they've been telling 671 00:27:57,154 --> 00:27:59,894 me. What? It doesn't mention anything 672 00:27:59,894 --> 00:28:02,054 about original sin or the fall. Those 673 00:28:02,054 --> 00:28:04,694 words are nowhere in this chapter or this 674 00:28:04,694 --> 00:28:06,626 whole story. It's not that long a story. 675 00:28:06,626 --> 00:28:09,894 Genesis two, three, they're nowhere. But 676 00:28:09,894 --> 00:28:12,346 why is that all anyone knows about Eve? 677 00:28:12,346 --> 00:28:14,298 And the more I began to learn and the more 678 00:28:14,298 --> 00:28:16,842 I got the tools. To delve deeper into the 679 00:28:16,842 --> 00:28:19,530 text, the more exciting I found. And I 680 00:28:19,530 --> 00:28:21,974 thought, I just want to share what I've 681 00:28:21,974 --> 00:28:24,046 learned. Hopefully, in a way that people 682 00:28:24,046 --> 00:28:26,382 will. Find accessible, hopefully in a way 683 00:28:26,382 --> 00:28:28,526 that. People who haven't been to seminary 684 00:28:28,526 --> 00:28:30,202 or even don't know anything about the 685 00:28:30,202 --> 00:28:32,414 Bible. But are just a little curious, 686 00:28:32,414 --> 00:28:33,934 will. Feel like they're brought along for 687 00:28:33,934 --> 00:28:35,726 the journey and not left on the side. If 688 00:28:35,726 --> 00:28:37,698 they haven't had a whole lot of biblical 689 00:28:37,698 --> 00:28:39,634 education, because I really knew. Very 690 00:28:39,634 --> 00:28:41,106 little about the Bible, honestly, until. I 691 00:28:41,106 --> 00:28:42,958 went to seminary. And a lot of people 692 00:28:42,958 --> 00:28:44,594 don't have that opportunity. So I'm hoping 693 00:28:44,594 --> 00:28:47,730 this book will help people to discover the 694 00:28:47,730 --> 00:28:50,374 scriptures as an exciting, liberating, 695 00:28:50,374 --> 00:28:52,066 life giving word. Because that's what 696 00:28:52,066 --> 00:28:53,778 feminist interpretation did for. Me, and 697 00:28:53,778 --> 00:28:58,426 that's what I hope this brothers as well. 698 00:28:58,426 --> 00:29:03,978 I love that. Big proponent of just getting 699 00:29:03,978 --> 00:29:06,202 different perspectives on the scriptures. 700 00:29:06,202 --> 00:29:09,274 Because once again, it's not just one 701 00:29:09,274 --> 00:29:11,810 book. We call it the Bible, but it was 702 00:29:11,810 --> 00:29:14,142 written over such a long period of time, 703 00:29:14,142 --> 00:29:16,042 people in all these different contexts, 704 00:29:16,042 --> 00:29:19,434 largely under oppression, and 705 00:29:19,434 --> 00:29:20,746 understanding the context of all that 706 00:29:20,746 --> 00:29:23,294 matters. But even as some of the beauty of 707 00:29:23,294 --> 00:29:25,490 this literature is that as we read it 708 00:29:25,490 --> 00:29:27,858 today, it's still so relevant to the human 709 00:29:27,858 --> 00:29:29,890 experience and our own lived experiences 710 00:29:29,890 --> 00:29:32,622 today. But each of us have such different 711 00:29:32,622 --> 00:29:37,398 filters, and I do. I work in tech now in a 712 00:29:37,398 --> 00:29:40,386 company where I'm a senior manager of 713 00:29:40,386 --> 00:29:41,526 leadership and development. And I've been 714 00:29:41,526 --> 00:29:45,286 doing these leadership seminars in the UK 715 00:29:45,286 --> 00:29:47,366 with our people there, and then in Memphis 716 00:29:47,366 --> 00:29:49,798 and then recently here in our Fremont 717 00:29:49,798 --> 00:29:52,746 headquarters. And every time I do these 718 00:29:52,746 --> 00:29:54,774 kind of workshops, I'm training on 719 00:29:54,774 --> 00:29:56,138 communication skills and listen to 720 00:29:56,138 --> 00:29:58,938 understand for our leaders. And in my 721 00:29:58,938 --> 00:30:01,686 research for that, a guy at Stanford 722 00:30:01,686 --> 00:30:03,690 graduate business school was saying, the 723 00:30:03,690 --> 00:30:05,886 filters that we listen through are unique 724 00:30:05,886 --> 00:30:07,562 to each of us because of our 725 00:30:07,562 --> 00:30:08,794 personalities, our experiences, our 726 00:30:08,794 --> 00:30:11,726 cultures, our languages, our families, 727 00:30:11,726 --> 00:30:14,606 what we've been through our lives. And so 728 00:30:14,606 --> 00:30:16,402 everybody's filters are unique when we 729 00:30:16,402 --> 00:30:18,334 listen, and they are as unique, and this 730 00:30:18,334 --> 00:30:21,470 floored me as our fingerprint. So 731 00:30:21,470 --> 00:30:23,518 literally everyone that listens is 732 00:30:23,518 --> 00:30:25,602 listening. In a unique way. And I really 733 00:30:25,602 --> 00:30:27,554 believe as we read the scriptures, we're 734 00:30:27,554 --> 00:30:30,246 all reading it in unique ways. And so to 735 00:30:30,246 --> 00:30:32,626 kind of put us in a box of how we read it, 736 00:30:32,626 --> 00:30:34,646 it's not helping us. It was not intended 737 00:30:34,646 --> 00:30:38,390 for that. But you yourself, as a mother, 738 00:30:38,390 --> 00:30:40,806 are reading through the lens of a mother. 739 00:30:40,806 --> 00:30:43,254 You're also reading and writing in a 740 00:30:43,254 --> 00:30:45,754 scholarly way about your own family. And 741 00:30:45,754 --> 00:30:48,570 you write about, through the lens of your 742 00:30:48,570 --> 00:30:50,394 children and labels they've had to carry 743 00:30:50,394 --> 00:30:51,886 from their own differences. So you write 744 00:30:51,886 --> 00:30:54,378 about your son's autism diagnosis, your 745 00:30:54,378 --> 00:30:56,894 daughter's struggles with bipolar. How did 746 00:30:56,894 --> 00:30:59,006 this impact you and your writing and your 747 00:30:59,006 --> 00:31:03,342 work as a scholar? Part of it was a 748 00:31:03,342 --> 00:31:06,674 response to. Social media, because we all 749 00:31:06,674 --> 00:31:10,238 put out our beautifully curated worlds. 750 00:31:10,238 --> 00:31:12,658 I'm barely on social media, but you. Look 751 00:31:12,658 --> 00:31:14,642 at Instagram, you look at Facebook. And 752 00:31:14,642 --> 00:31:16,974 you see that everything looks so 753 00:31:16,974 --> 00:31:18,354 wonderful. And people are having such a 754 00:31:18,354 --> 00:31:20,550 great time. And his family is absolutely 755 00:31:20,550 --> 00:31:23,142 perfect, and. It'S just not real life. And 756 00:31:23,142 --> 00:31:25,526 so I wanted to. In response to that, I 757 00:31:25,526 --> 00:31:27,526 just wanted to share some of my struggles 758 00:31:27,526 --> 00:31:30,106 and. Some of my family struggles. And we 759 00:31:30,106 --> 00:31:33,354 talk about a world of difference. We're 760 00:31:33,354 --> 00:31:35,146 all different, right? Like, our filters 761 00:31:35,146 --> 00:31:36,678 are unique, as you just said, our 762 00:31:36,678 --> 00:31:38,202 fingerprints are unique. We're all 763 00:31:38,202 --> 00:31:42,682 different. But some people have labels 764 00:31:42,682 --> 00:31:45,262 that are put upon them and that you live. 765 00:31:45,262 --> 00:31:47,374 With because it's your ticket to services 766 00:31:47,374 --> 00:31:48,846 and it's how you hopefully can get some 767 00:31:48,846 --> 00:31:51,054 help. But that's not easy. We found out 768 00:31:51,054 --> 00:31:55,566 that my son was. He had this diagnosis. At 769 00:31:55,566 --> 00:31:57,194 the time, they called it Asperger's 770 00:31:57,194 --> 00:31:59,182 syndrome. Now we call it being on the 771 00:31:59,182 --> 00:32:00,818 spectrum. But he got this diagnosis when 772 00:32:00,818 --> 00:32:02,846 he. Was five years old because he just 773 00:32:02,846 --> 00:32:04,674 didn't have much interest in other 774 00:32:04,674 --> 00:32:07,246 children. And that's a tough number for a. 775 00:32:07,246 --> 00:32:10,774 Parent to be told your child's autistic, 776 00:32:10,774 --> 00:32:13,238 and I just had no idea what his future was 777 00:32:13,238 --> 00:32:16,294 going to be like. And we were able to get 778 00:32:16,294 --> 00:32:18,486 him. Services through the school a little 779 00:32:18,486 --> 00:32:21,866 bit on our own. I did some things for him 780 00:32:21,866 --> 00:32:24,442 I wish I had done more. Know, it's so 781 00:32:24,442 --> 00:32:26,780 hard. You always, you know, you can always 782 00:32:26,780 --> 00:32:30,198 do. He's. Yeah, you can always do more. 783 00:32:30,198 --> 00:32:32,250 That's really hard on moms, especially, 784 00:32:32,250 --> 00:32:35,818 like. There'S so much you can do. But now 785 00:32:35,818 --> 00:32:37,566 he's doing really well. I want to tell 786 00:32:37,566 --> 00:32:39,214 you, Lori, he's like a success story. He 787 00:32:39,214 --> 00:32:41,086 lives in Brooklyn, shares an apartment 788 00:32:41,086 --> 00:32:43,274 with my nephew. He works for Morgan Chase, 789 00:32:43,274 --> 00:32:46,322 pays all his own bills. He's doing great. 790 00:32:46,322 --> 00:32:49,426 And so you can get to the. Other side of 791 00:32:49,426 --> 00:32:51,220 it. I don't talk about that part in. The 792 00:32:51,220 --> 00:32:55,186 book, but it's there. And when we share 793 00:32:55,186 --> 00:32:58,450 these struggles, we feel less alone. My 794 00:32:58,450 --> 00:33:01,794 daughter, she's developed this show called 795 00:33:01,794 --> 00:33:04,770 Bipolar Badass. She started doing comedy 796 00:33:04,770 --> 00:33:07,026 sketches in New. York City about her 797 00:33:07,026 --> 00:33:08,934 bipolar disorder, and. Then she developed 798 00:33:08,934 --> 00:33:10,826 into a show that. She took on the fringe. 799 00:33:10,826 --> 00:33:12,918 She won emerging artist awards. She's 800 00:33:12,918 --> 00:33:15,546 performing in Europe. And her whole goal 801 00:33:15,546 --> 00:33:18,026 is to take away some of the stigma about 802 00:33:18,026 --> 00:33:20,666 having bipolar disorder, because people 803 00:33:20,666 --> 00:33:22,986 speak about having. Cancer, and then they 804 00:33:22,986 --> 00:33:25,098 get flooded with sympathy. You say that 805 00:33:25,098 --> 00:33:28,106 you're bipolar, and people use it as an 806 00:33:28,106 --> 00:33:29,406 expression that's derogatory. When they're 807 00:33:29,406 --> 00:33:31,546 having a bad day. Oh, I feel so bipolar. 808 00:33:31,546 --> 00:33:33,854 It's a serious, life threatening, chronic 809 00:33:33,854 --> 00:33:37,138 condition, and we need to recognize that, 810 00:33:37,138 --> 00:33:39,698 but also be grateful that it's treatable 811 00:33:39,698 --> 00:33:42,274 and. There are things you can do. And so 812 00:33:42,274 --> 00:33:45,566 she talks about her medication. And she 813 00:33:45,566 --> 00:33:46,866 talks about that in her routine. She talks 814 00:33:46,866 --> 00:33:49,926 about that in her show. And I talk a 815 00:33:49,926 --> 00:33:52,194 little bit in the book about how 816 00:33:52,194 --> 00:33:54,374 terrifying depression can be. I don't 817 00:33:54,374 --> 00:33:56,418 mention this, but I lost. A cousin to 818 00:33:56,418 --> 00:33:58,422 depression who took his. Own life, so I 819 00:33:58,422 --> 00:34:02,090 get how scary. It can be, but she's really 820 00:34:02,090 --> 00:34:04,746 working hard to combat that. And I think 821 00:34:04,746 --> 00:34:07,366 when we talk about. It, it helps us all to 822 00:34:07,366 --> 00:34:09,962 erase the stigma. It helps us all to find 823 00:34:09,962 --> 00:34:12,246 help. And for me, that's one of the. Great 824 00:34:12,246 --> 00:34:14,414 gifts of feminism. It helps us to feel 825 00:34:14,414 --> 00:34:16,446 less alone, and I hope that the book might 826 00:34:16,446 --> 00:34:20,654 do that in some small way, too. Yeah. 827 00:34:20,654 --> 00:34:22,698 Well, thank you so much for sharing that 828 00:34:22,698 --> 00:34:24,158 vulnerably. I think that many people 829 00:34:24,158 --> 00:34:27,454 listening to this podcast can relate both 830 00:34:27,454 --> 00:34:29,886 families who have somebody in their family 831 00:34:29,886 --> 00:34:32,562 that's on the autism spectrum, people that 832 00:34:32,562 --> 00:34:34,674 actually themselves are neurodiverse, that 833 00:34:34,674 --> 00:34:37,822 listen to the podcast, as well as people 834 00:34:37,822 --> 00:34:41,126 who suffer from bipolar and the stigma of 835 00:34:41,126 --> 00:34:43,362 it as well, as well as some of the 836 00:34:43,362 --> 00:34:46,034 complications medically from getting the 837 00:34:46,034 --> 00:34:47,174 treatments that. You need, which is a 838 00:34:47,174 --> 00:34:49,270 whole other. Kind of conversation as well, 839 00:34:49,270 --> 00:34:51,194 of marginalization, at least in the United 840 00:34:51,194 --> 00:34:53,594 States, that often people experience. And 841 00:34:53,594 --> 00:34:56,460 being a mother of children like that, but 842 00:34:56,460 --> 00:34:59,466 also seeing the struggle and hearing you 843 00:34:59,466 --> 00:35:02,746 talk about that as well as know hope that 844 00:35:02,746 --> 00:35:04,734 you give for what their lives are like 845 00:35:04,734 --> 00:35:06,766 now. And I'm really grateful to hear that 846 00:35:06,766 --> 00:35:08,862 you raised them in such a way as to where 847 00:35:08,862 --> 00:35:11,214 their differences could be something that 848 00:35:11,214 --> 00:35:13,138 could help them to make a difference in 849 00:35:13,138 --> 00:35:14,386 the lives of others. We will definitely 850 00:35:14,386 --> 00:35:16,386 check out bipolar badass, so we'll look 851 00:35:16,386 --> 00:35:20,770 for that. That sounds like a lot of. 852 00:35:20,770 --> 00:35:26,290 Badass. That's awesome. When we think 853 00:35:26,290 --> 00:35:28,354 about this book that you've written and 854 00:35:28,354 --> 00:35:30,214 such a gift. Thank you so much for all the 855 00:35:30,214 --> 00:35:33,346 hard work you put into it. Your 856 00:35:33,346 --> 00:35:34,962 interpretation of Eve, you mentioned this 857 00:35:34,962 --> 00:35:36,614 earlier. It's so different than what you 858 00:35:36,614 --> 00:35:40,002 were told. Most of us, when we think about 859 00:35:40,002 --> 00:35:41,846 Eve, especially in some of the white 860 00:35:41,846 --> 00:35:43,002 evangelical spaces here in the United 861 00:35:43,002 --> 00:35:45,606 States, a lot of us do think, or the 862 00:35:45,606 --> 00:35:47,830 narratives that we've heard some 863 00:35:47,830 --> 00:35:49,754 preachers, mostly men, say about her, 864 00:35:49,754 --> 00:35:51,914 well, she was the first to sin. She led 865 00:35:51,914 --> 00:35:55,550 Adam into sin. When you think about Eve 866 00:35:55,550 --> 00:35:57,262 now, especially after having written this 867 00:35:57,262 --> 00:35:59,774 book, kind of how do you understand her 868 00:35:59,774 --> 00:36:04,038 and why? I love her. She is one of my 869 00:36:04,038 --> 00:36:06,942 favorite Bible. Characters because she's 870 00:36:06,942 --> 00:36:09,810 curious, because she seeks knowledge, 871 00:36:09,810 --> 00:36:11,474 because she wants to know the. Difference 872 00:36:11,474 --> 00:36:13,026 between good and evil as she. Makes her 873 00:36:13,026 --> 00:36:15,438 way in the world, that's ethics. I think 874 00:36:15,438 --> 00:36:17,094 that's a good thing to go through the 875 00:36:17,094 --> 00:36:20,694 world ethically. And all of this blame is 876 00:36:20,694 --> 00:36:24,246 put on her when Adam is there the entire 877 00:36:24,246 --> 00:36:26,422 time. That's something that often gets 878 00:36:26,422 --> 00:36:29,794 left out, not only from our 879 00:36:29,794 --> 00:36:31,522 interpretation, but actually from the 880 00:36:31,522 --> 00:36:34,426 translation. So Genesis three six reads. 881 00:36:34,426 --> 00:36:36,074 And when she saw that the tree. Was good 882 00:36:36,074 --> 00:36:38,378 for food and that it was a delight to the 883 00:36:38,378 --> 00:36:40,694 eyes and that it was desired to make one 884 00:36:40,694 --> 00:36:43,274 wise, she took of its fruit and she ate 885 00:36:43,274 --> 00:36:45,566 and she gave some to her husband who was 886 00:36:45,566 --> 00:36:48,606 with her, and he ate. That's the NRSV. I 887 00:36:48,606 --> 00:36:50,078 would say her man, because there hasn't 888 00:36:50,078 --> 00:36:51,646 like been a marriage thing, but anyway. 889 00:36:51,646 --> 00:36:56,018 And he ate. But the words who was with her 890 00:36:56,018 --> 00:36:58,066 are not in a lot of Bibles. They're not in 891 00:36:58,066 --> 00:37:00,306 the revised standard Version. They're not 892 00:37:00,306 --> 00:37:02,626 in the Jewish Publication Society, Tanakh 893 00:37:02,626 --> 00:37:07,550 of 1985. They are left out of many 894 00:37:07,550 --> 00:37:09,638 translations of the Bible. And that about 895 00:37:09,638 --> 00:37:11,766 a third of english translations leave that 896 00:37:11,766 --> 00:37:13,826 out. I did a lot of research on this and 897 00:37:13,826 --> 00:37:15,874 published an article called Blaming Eve 898 00:37:15,874 --> 00:37:19,894 alone. But I was stunned to see that. One 899 00:37:19,894 --> 00:37:22,554 small Hebrew word ima, meaning with. Her, 900 00:37:22,554 --> 00:37:25,146 has been left out of many. Translations of 901 00:37:25,146 --> 00:37:27,594 the Bible. And that makes it very easy to 902 00:37:27,594 --> 00:37:29,542 just blame her for the quote, fall of 903 00:37:29,542 --> 00:37:30,938 humanity. Fall again, that word is nowhere 904 00:37:30,938 --> 00:37:34,234 in. The text, even though she hasn't even 905 00:37:34,234 --> 00:37:37,054 been formed yet. In chapter two, when God 906 00:37:37,054 --> 00:37:38,606 says to. Adam, don't eat of the fruit of 907 00:37:38,606 --> 00:37:40,366 the street. She hasn't even been formed, 908 00:37:40,366 --> 00:37:42,590 and yet she takes the blame, she takes the 909 00:37:42,590 --> 00:37:44,366 fall for him. And at least she thinks 910 00:37:44,366 --> 00:37:45,806 about it, at least she has these reasons, 911 00:37:45,806 --> 00:37:47,106 a number of reasons why she's going to 912 00:37:47,106 --> 00:37:49,246 eat. And he just like eats right away. 913 00:37:49,246 --> 00:37:52,066 Doesn't say if he'd been a helper. Azer, 914 00:37:52,066 --> 00:37:53,870 as you mentioned before, that word means 915 00:37:53,870 --> 00:37:55,666 helper in the Hebrew Bible. She's formed 916 00:37:55,666 --> 00:37:58,466 as a helper. But 90% of the time that we. 917 00:37:58,466 --> 00:38:00,318 Read it in the Bible refers to God, like 918 00:38:00,318 --> 00:38:02,178 psalm 121, which we mentioned earlier. I 919 00:38:02,178 --> 00:38:03,954 lift my knives to the hills, you must, my 920 00:38:03,954 --> 00:38:06,518 azer, my helper. And so if he'd been more 921 00:38:06,518 --> 00:38:08,134 of. A helper himself, he might have said. 922 00:38:08,134 --> 00:38:09,766 Wait a minute, don't eat from that fruit 923 00:38:09,766 --> 00:38:12,978 of the tree. But he doesn't. He eats. And 924 00:38:12,978 --> 00:38:14,698 then all of this is a. Couple of things I 925 00:38:14,698 --> 00:38:16,294 want to point. Out that most people aren't 926 00:38:16,294 --> 00:38:18,342 aware. All three of the characters are 927 00:38:18,342 --> 00:38:20,346 punished, right? So the snake is punished. 928 00:38:20,346 --> 00:38:22,866 Here we have a series of ideologies. For 929 00:38:22,866 --> 00:38:25,914 stories of origins that explain observable 930 00:38:25,914 --> 00:38:28,266 phenomena. And so why do snakes, like, 931 00:38:28,266 --> 00:38:30,126 imagine a child in the intro, mummy, why 932 00:38:30,126 --> 00:38:31,998 does snakes slither? It's such a funny way 933 00:38:31,998 --> 00:38:33,934 to move. Most animals don't move like 934 00:38:33,934 --> 00:38:36,254 that. Let me tell you, my child, long. Ago 935 00:38:36,254 --> 00:38:38,798 and far away, there was this talking 936 00:38:38,798 --> 00:38:41,026 snake, but it disobeyed God. And so in the 937 00:38:41,026 --> 00:38:42,766 end, it had to slender, right? That's the 938 00:38:42,766 --> 00:38:44,546 punishment with the snake. And also the 939 00:38:44,546 --> 00:38:46,078 other punishment of the snake is that 940 00:38:46,078 --> 00:38:48,050 there's going to be enmity or hatred 941 00:38:48,050 --> 00:38:49,894 between the woman and the snake. And a lot 942 00:38:49,894 --> 00:38:52,674 of people have really irrational fear of 943 00:38:52,674 --> 00:38:54,486 snakes, even if it's. A garter snake that 944 00:38:54,486 --> 00:38:55,766 they know isn't. Going to hurt them. They 945 00:38:55,766 --> 00:38:58,338 just freak out, right? So it explains this 946 00:38:58,338 --> 00:39:00,834 observable phenomenon. The woman is 947 00:39:00,834 --> 00:39:03,526 punished with pain in childbirth. The word 948 00:39:03,526 --> 00:39:06,122 for pain is it savon. In Hebrew, and it 949 00:39:06,122 --> 00:39:08,166 means labor. The exact same part of the 950 00:39:08,166 --> 00:39:09,966 man's punishment, same word, itzavon. He's 951 00:39:09,966 --> 00:39:11,674 going to have to labor with the ground, 952 00:39:11,674 --> 00:39:13,086 the Adam, he's going to have to work with 953 00:39:13,086 --> 00:39:15,006 the Adama, the. Human with the humus or 954 00:39:15,006 --> 00:39:18,094 the soil. Earthling with the earth. And so 955 00:39:18,094 --> 00:39:21,162 she has this punishment of having pain and 956 00:39:21,162 --> 00:39:24,314 childbirth. But as I point out, pain and 957 00:39:24,314 --> 00:39:26,718 childbirth, which I've experienced, it's 958 00:39:26,718 --> 00:39:30,402 temporary, and. At the end, you get a but. 959 00:39:30,402 --> 00:39:32,594 So it's a really great reward for, know, a 960 00:39:32,594 --> 00:39:35,586 day or so or half a day, maybe two, of 961 00:39:35,586 --> 00:39:38,034 kind of misery. But in the. Like, you have 962 00:39:38,034 --> 00:39:40,994 this baby. It's pretty amazing. But with 963 00:39:40,994 --> 00:39:43,206 Adam, his punishment is he has to, all the 964 00:39:43,206 --> 00:39:45,654 time is toil. In, out, in, out, in, out, 965 00:39:45,654 --> 00:39:47,494 in, out, just to get enough to eat every 966 00:39:47,494 --> 00:39:49,766 single day. It doesn't stop after 24 or 967 00:39:49,766 --> 00:39:53,634 48. Or 12 hours, whatever. And also that 968 00:39:53,634 --> 00:39:55,350 pun, you know, she's. Told she has a 969 00:39:55,350 --> 00:39:56,966 punishment. Your desire shall be for your 970 00:39:56,966 --> 00:39:58,566 husband, and he shall rule over you. 971 00:39:58,566 --> 00:40:01,446 Genesis 316. Your desire shall be for your 972 00:40:01,446 --> 00:40:03,722 husband. I read as an ideology as well. 973 00:40:03,722 --> 00:40:05,662 Like, why would a woman in the ancient 974 00:40:05,662 --> 00:40:07,806 world ever sleep with a man when she knows 975 00:40:07,806 --> 00:40:09,854 that she's taking her. Life in her hands? 976 00:40:09,854 --> 00:40:11,422 Because she could die in childbirth. 977 00:40:11,422 --> 00:40:12,826 Without medical care, your chances of 978 00:40:12,826 --> 00:40:14,542 dying are pretty good. One in ten, one in 979 00:40:14,542 --> 00:40:16,894 20, maybe. That's like russian roulette. 980 00:40:16,894 --> 00:40:18,226 So why would she ever sleep with a man? 981 00:40:18,226 --> 00:40:20,226 You need to explain it with an ideology. 982 00:40:20,226 --> 00:40:23,374 Her desire will be for a husband. And her 983 00:40:23,374 --> 00:40:24,898 turning actually is to. Shook is the word 984 00:40:24,898 --> 00:40:26,606 in Hebrew. Her turning will be to her 985 00:40:26,606 --> 00:40:28,086 husband. So she will turn or something, 986 00:40:28,086 --> 00:40:30,166 and. He will rule over her. Carol Myers, 987 00:40:30,166 --> 00:40:33,298 who I mentioned earlier, she says this is 988 00:40:33,298 --> 00:40:35,814 explaining the man's role as penetrator. 989 00:40:35,814 --> 00:40:38,950 Know, sexually, he's dominating in this, 990 00:40:38,950 --> 00:40:40,726 and. But it's part of the punishment. And 991 00:40:40,726 --> 00:40:42,646 even if you think it's an ideology for 992 00:40:42,646 --> 00:40:43,718 patriarchy, it's part of the punishment. 993 00:40:43,718 --> 00:40:45,466 It's not God's good creation. These are 994 00:40:45,466 --> 00:40:46,938 the difficult things we're stuck dealing 995 00:40:46,938 --> 00:40:50,666 with. And then the man, he has to. Labor 996 00:40:50,666 --> 00:40:53,206 all the time. He's going to become dust 997 00:40:53,206 --> 00:40:54,366 serpent food, which was what we're told 998 00:40:54,366 --> 00:40:57,034 the serpent. Is going to eat. So his 999 00:40:57,034 --> 00:40:58,590 punishment really seems pretty harsh to 1000 00:40:58,590 --> 00:41:00,606 me. But then what happens? At the very end 1001 00:41:00,606 --> 00:41:03,118 of chapter three. Only the ha Adam is sent 1002 00:41:03,118 --> 00:41:05,086 out. Of the garden of Eden. And I play 1003 00:41:05,086 --> 00:41:06,434 with a little bit in the book. I'm like, 1004 00:41:06,434 --> 00:41:09,166 and Eve and God, they stay together. 1005 00:41:09,166 --> 00:41:10,786 They're both creators. She is the mother 1006 00:41:10,786 --> 00:41:13,026 of all living. They rejoice in their wise 1007 00:41:13,026 --> 00:41:15,326 and glorious creation. Whenever you see a 1008 00:41:15,326 --> 00:41:16,926 mother and daughter laughing together, 1009 00:41:16,926 --> 00:41:19,058 that's a spark of the divine mother and 1010 00:41:19,058 --> 00:41:20,822 daughter. Whenever you see two or three 1011 00:41:20,822 --> 00:41:22,886 women together gathered in her name, she 1012 00:41:22,886 --> 00:41:26,034 is there among them. And eventually she 1013 00:41:26,034 --> 00:41:28,246 decides to take pity on Adam and go out 1014 00:41:28,246 --> 00:41:30,374 and keep. Him company, because in chapter 1015 00:41:30,374 --> 00:41:31,798 four, she's. There, and she buries Cain. 1016 00:41:31,798 --> 00:41:34,266 She buries that child. But that happens 1017 00:41:34,266 --> 00:41:35,914 much later, in my understanding. The text 1018 00:41:35,914 --> 00:41:37,786 never says when she leaves. And so perhaps 1019 00:41:37,786 --> 00:41:40,886 she is just there with God, because the 1020 00:41:40,886 --> 00:41:42,218 angel with the flaming sword that guards 1021 00:41:42,218 --> 00:41:44,666 the way to. The tree of life, only the ha 1022 00:41:44,666 --> 00:41:47,738 Adam has made out of the garden of Eden. 1023 00:41:47,738 --> 00:41:49,598 Isn't that interesting? It's so different. 1024 00:41:49,598 --> 00:41:53,086 This is just the Hebrew, Lori. Yeah. No, I 1025 00:41:53,086 --> 00:41:55,146 love it. Every time I hear people, because 1026 00:41:55,146 --> 00:41:56,994 I've studied the Hebrew of the story, I 1027 00:41:56,994 --> 00:41:59,454 hear more things that were left out of the 1028 00:41:59,454 --> 00:42:01,538 Sunday school flannel board version for a 1029 00:42:01,538 --> 00:42:04,866 lot of people listening. Can I just share 1030 00:42:04,866 --> 00:42:09,026 one other thing? It's so true. Yeah. I 1031 00:42:09,026 --> 00:42:10,386 read the Bible in Hebrew every morning 1032 00:42:10,386 --> 00:42:12,134 just because I love it so much. And every 1033 00:42:12,134 --> 00:42:14,326 time it blows my mind. I find new things. 1034 00:42:14,326 --> 00:42:16,566 So I was reading Genesis four not long ago 1035 00:42:16,566 --> 00:42:18,106 for a presentation I was. Doing on Cain 1036 00:42:18,106 --> 00:42:22,374 and Abel. And it says in English, so Eve. 1037 00:42:22,374 --> 00:42:24,314 Bears a child, and she names him, which 1038 00:42:24,314 --> 00:42:29,610 usually the women do in the Bible. Because 1039 00:42:29,610 --> 00:42:34,830 Kaniti. So I acquired him. So Kana is 1040 00:42:34,830 --> 00:42:36,826 origin of Cain. And actually, in modern 1041 00:42:36,826 --> 00:42:39,354 Hebrew, Kana means to shop. Okay, so I 1042 00:42:39,354 --> 00:42:41,674 acquired him. I acquired him. And in 1043 00:42:41,674 --> 00:42:43,626 English, it reads, with the help of the 1044 00:42:43,626 --> 00:42:46,142 Lord. But in Hebrew, it says, I acquired 1045 00:42:46,142 --> 00:42:49,086 him with the Lord. I'm like, oh, my 1046 00:42:49,086 --> 00:42:51,426 goodness, she has a child with God. Who's 1047 00:42:51,426 --> 00:42:52,866 the only other person in scripture. Who 1048 00:42:52,866 --> 00:42:55,566 has a child with God. Mary, the mother of 1049 00:42:55,566 --> 00:42:58,402 Jesus. And we see them as so opposed. 1050 00:42:58,402 --> 00:43:00,486 Because patriarchy likes to put women in 1051 00:43:00,486 --> 00:43:03,206 two places, the pedestal or the pit. The 1052 00:43:03,206 --> 00:43:05,346 two most famous women in the. Bible, Mary, 1053 00:43:05,346 --> 00:43:07,126 mother of Jesus, virgin mother. Good luck 1054 00:43:07,126 --> 00:43:09,654 trying to emulate that. And then Eve, who 1055 00:43:09,654 --> 00:43:11,594 brings down all of humanity, like, you 1056 00:43:11,594 --> 00:43:13,962 have these terrible. Choices, but 1057 00:43:13,962 --> 00:43:15,894 actually, they're so close. They're 1058 00:43:15,894 --> 00:43:18,522 scriptural sisters, because both of them. 1059 00:43:18,522 --> 00:43:21,830 Give birth to life, in some ways, this 1060 00:43:21,830 --> 00:43:23,694 incredible life, and both of them. Have a 1061 00:43:23,694 --> 00:43:27,422 child of God. Isn't that amazing? That is 1062 00:43:27,422 --> 00:43:29,754 amazing. Yeah. I think that that's the 1063 00:43:29,754 --> 00:43:32,174 beauty of when we can read the Bible 1064 00:43:32,174 --> 00:43:35,902 through the lens of a feminist 1065 00:43:35,902 --> 00:43:38,370 perspective, where we're looking for. 1066 00:43:38,370 --> 00:43:40,734 Where are we seeing that men and women are 1067 00:43:40,734 --> 00:43:43,598 equal? And when you look for it, it's 1068 00:43:43,598 --> 00:43:47,406 everywhere, from Genesis 127 onward. It 1069 00:43:47,406 --> 00:43:49,258 doesn't mean women aren't experiencing 1070 00:43:49,258 --> 00:43:50,742 oppression or marginalization. And, in 1071 00:43:50,742 --> 00:43:52,246 fact, it looks like Jesus is sort of 1072 00:43:52,246 --> 00:43:54,550 trying to highlight that a lot of his 1073 00:43:54,550 --> 00:43:57,266 ministry. But the lens is there, and the 1074 00:43:57,266 --> 00:44:00,386 lens is helpful, and you realize there's 1075 00:44:00,386 --> 00:44:02,406 parts of the story that haven't been 1076 00:44:02,406 --> 00:44:04,166 preached from a lot of pulpits you've been 1077 00:44:04,166 --> 00:44:06,426 sitting in. And therefore, hopefully, it 1078 00:44:06,426 --> 00:44:07,974 makes us curious, which is what you're 1079 00:44:07,974 --> 00:44:10,054 inviting us into by the time the book 1080 00:44:10,054 --> 00:44:12,086 finishes. And I really love that. My 1081 00:44:12,086 --> 00:44:15,440 husband was preparing for a sermon last 1082 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,746 week. He and I sometimes fill in at a 1083 00:44:18,746 --> 00:44:20,206 pulpit here at an indonesian church, and 1084 00:44:20,206 --> 00:44:22,074 he was going to be preaching on the 1085 00:44:22,074 --> 00:44:25,194 prodigal son, and he wanted to get some 1086 00:44:25,194 --> 00:44:27,086 female theologian their perspectives as he 1087 00:44:27,086 --> 00:44:29,406 was studying it. And he's like, it's just 1088 00:44:29,406 --> 00:44:30,546 fascinating. There's not really women in 1089 00:44:30,546 --> 00:44:32,722 the story, but there's so many stories 1090 00:44:32,722 --> 00:44:34,146 like that that people might preach on 1091 00:44:34,146 --> 00:44:36,418 where the women don't exist. And you point 1092 00:44:36,418 --> 00:44:39,134 out in the book of Job, there's very few 1093 00:44:39,134 --> 00:44:41,794 female characters, but this book is a very 1094 00:44:41,794 --> 00:44:44,726 rich and deep book of the Bible. As you 1095 00:44:44,726 --> 00:44:46,198 read it through a feminist lens, did you 1096 00:44:46,198 --> 00:44:49,174 want to say a little bit more about. You 1097 00:44:49,174 --> 00:44:51,014 know, you're so right, Lori. We can find 1098 00:44:51,014 --> 00:44:53,058 this feminist lens, and. Let'S face it, 1099 00:44:53,058 --> 00:44:55,498 some texts are easier. To apply it to than 1100 00:44:55,498 --> 00:44:56,922 others. And some texts are really 1101 00:44:56,922 --> 00:44:58,522 difficult in. Terms of what they say about 1102 00:44:58,522 --> 00:45:00,106 women. That's just the reality. But how do 1103 00:45:00,106 --> 00:45:02,582 we interpret it? Powers in the 1104 00:45:02,582 --> 00:45:04,398 interpretation. And so with the book of 1105 00:45:04,398 --> 00:45:07,438 Job, 42 chapters, very entracentric, 1106 00:45:07,438 --> 00:45:09,182 almost all men throughout the. Throughout 1107 00:45:09,182 --> 00:45:11,434 the text. But when we look at it with. 1108 00:45:11,434 --> 00:45:14,094 Feminist lens, there are two approaches. 1109 00:45:14,094 --> 00:45:15,806 One is to really focus on the. Women 1110 00:45:15,806 --> 00:45:17,154 character, the few women characters that 1111 00:45:17,154 --> 00:45:21,858 there are. And in Job 29, Job's wife has 1112 00:45:21,858 --> 00:45:24,494 exactly six words in Hebrew, which in 1113 00:45:24,494 --> 00:45:26,966 English, we read, do you still persist in 1114 00:45:26,966 --> 00:45:30,022 your integrity, curse God and die? 1115 00:45:30,022 --> 00:45:32,546 However, the Hebrew says, you are still 1116 00:45:32,546 --> 00:45:35,382 holding on to your integrity. Bless God 1117 00:45:35,382 --> 00:45:39,770 and die. What? It's like the exact 1118 00:45:39,770 --> 00:45:42,966 opposite. And so I explore that in this 1119 00:45:42,966 --> 00:45:45,178 section. Curious. Like Eve. Learn more. 1120 00:45:45,178 --> 00:45:48,982 But why the word barech, meaning as an 1121 00:45:48,982 --> 00:45:51,302 imperative, meaning to bless, is 1122 00:45:51,302 --> 00:45:53,978 translated as curse? I think it's a bias 1123 00:45:53,978 --> 00:45:55,694 against Job's wife. There are places when 1124 00:45:55,694 --> 00:45:58,014 you can and probably should translate it 1125 00:45:58,014 --> 00:46:00,062 as curse, but I don't think this is one of 1126 00:46:00,062 --> 00:46:02,782 them. And also in English, we read her 1127 00:46:02,782 --> 00:46:04,414 asking a question. Do you still persist in 1128 00:46:04,414 --> 00:46:06,330 your integrity? Like, she's making fun of 1129 00:46:06,330 --> 00:46:09,086 him, like, what's your problem? But in the 1130 00:46:09,086 --> 00:46:11,806 Hebrew, there's no indicator of an 1131 00:46:11,806 --> 00:46:13,202 interrogative. There's no interrogative. 1132 00:46:13,202 --> 00:46:14,706 Hey, like this particle at the beginning. 1133 00:46:14,706 --> 00:46:17,054 That makes a question. There's no 1134 00:46:17,054 --> 00:46:18,226 interrogative pronoun like, who, what, 1135 00:46:18,226 --> 00:46:20,454 where, when, why? None of that. If you 1136 00:46:20,454 --> 00:46:21,826 read commentaries, they'll say it's a 1137 00:46:21,826 --> 00:46:23,606 quote. Unquote, tonal, interrogative. Like 1138 00:46:23,606 --> 00:46:25,318 the tone. How do you know the tone? It's 1139 00:46:25,318 --> 00:46:28,550 on a page. I really see this as a bias. 1140 00:46:28,550 --> 00:46:30,586 Against women to make her look bad. I 1141 00:46:30,586 --> 00:46:32,566 think she's really a wonderful, 1142 00:46:32,566 --> 00:46:34,026 compassionate spouse. That's how I read 1143 00:46:34,026 --> 00:46:37,766 her. Also, at the end of job, we have his 1144 00:46:37,766 --> 00:46:39,722 sisters when he's restored. So, as you 1145 00:46:39,722 --> 00:46:42,250 know, he has this wonderful life. He loses 1146 00:46:42,250 --> 00:46:44,026 everything, including his family. We don't 1147 00:46:44,026 --> 00:46:45,418 know what happens to the wife. She sort of 1148 00:46:45,418 --> 00:46:48,254 doesn't get mentioned. His ten children, 1149 00:46:48,254 --> 00:46:50,366 seven sons, three daughters, loses it. All 1150 00:46:50,366 --> 00:46:52,078 his friends come to him. They sit silently 1151 00:46:52,078 --> 00:46:53,818 for a while. And the bulk of the book, 1152 00:46:53,818 --> 00:46:55,406 they're. Arguing back and forth with him. 1153 00:46:55,406 --> 00:46:57,234 After they've sat silently with him for. 1154 00:46:57,234 --> 00:46:58,898 Seven days, they start telling him all. 1155 00:46:58,898 --> 00:47:01,442 The things that he's done wrong. And then 1156 00:47:01,442 --> 00:47:03,474 God finally speaks from the whirlwind. And 1157 00:47:03,474 --> 00:47:05,554 God vindicates job and restores 1158 00:47:05,554 --> 00:47:07,950 everything. So we also get these women 1159 00:47:07,950 --> 00:47:09,814 characters. At the end of the book. We get 1160 00:47:09,814 --> 00:47:11,506 his sisters, who come to him when he's 1161 00:47:11,506 --> 00:47:14,022 restored and give him. Money and eat with 1162 00:47:14,022 --> 00:47:16,114 him like his brothers do, which is 1163 00:47:16,114 --> 00:47:17,734 wonderful. Just a small little detail. 1164 00:47:17,734 --> 00:47:19,098 Like they can give him money too. They've 1165 00:47:19,098 --> 00:47:21,722 got their own independent means. He has 1166 00:47:21,722 --> 00:47:24,934 three daughters, and the sons don't have 1167 00:47:24,934 --> 00:47:27,466 names. But the daughters are named Jemima, 1168 00:47:27,466 --> 00:47:30,166 which means dove. May she know freedom. 1169 00:47:30,166 --> 00:47:32,106 Kaziah, which means cinnamon flower, may 1170 00:47:32,106 --> 00:47:34,362 she. Know the subtle sweetness of life. 1171 00:47:34,362 --> 00:47:36,926 And Karen hapu, which any commentary will. 1172 00:47:36,926 --> 00:47:40,554 Tell you is a container for cosmetics. But 1173 00:47:40,554 --> 00:47:42,986 Karen means horn, and it's also. A sign of 1174 00:47:42,986 --> 00:47:45,886 strength and power. And hapuk means 1175 00:47:45,886 --> 00:47:48,594 antimony, which is a. Compound that is 1176 00:47:48,594 --> 00:47:50,306 always mixed with another. Like antimonys, 1177 00:47:50,306 --> 00:47:52,926 not alone. And so maybe he's imparting 1178 00:47:52,926 --> 00:47:55,362 strength and solidarity to her. And he 1179 00:47:55,362 --> 00:47:58,114 also gives his daughters an inheritance 1180 00:47:58,114 --> 00:48:00,390 along with his brothers. That's the only 1181 00:48:00,390 --> 00:48:02,994 place in the entire Hebrew Bible where 1182 00:48:02,994 --> 00:48:04,966 girls inherit along with their brothers. 1183 00:48:04,966 --> 00:48:06,626 Of course, you have the story of the 1184 00:48:06,626 --> 00:48:08,806 daughters of Zalofa had in numbers 26. But 1185 00:48:08,806 --> 00:48:11,138 they don't have any brothers. And so 1186 00:48:11,138 --> 00:48:13,094 that's why they can inherit. But girls 1187 00:48:13,094 --> 00:48:14,666 inheriting with their brothers. So I like 1188 00:48:14,666 --> 00:48:17,046 to say maybe Job has learned. Like a 1189 00:48:17,046 --> 00:48:18,506 budding feminist, you need to look out for 1190 00:48:18,506 --> 00:48:20,714 those who are more vulnerable. But what is 1191 00:48:20,714 --> 00:48:23,686 most feminist to me. About this book is 1192 00:48:23,686 --> 00:48:25,806 what happens in the middle. When you have 1193 00:48:25,806 --> 00:48:27,454 all of these men. Job and his friends 1194 00:48:27,454 --> 00:48:30,030 talking with each other. Job never 1195 00:48:30,030 --> 00:48:32,366 questions his own authority. He holds on 1196 00:48:32,366 --> 00:48:34,622 to the truth of his story. And when his 1197 00:48:34,622 --> 00:48:37,358 friends start telling him. This is your 1198 00:48:37,358 --> 00:48:39,218 fault, you've done something wrong. Who 1199 00:48:39,218 --> 00:48:41,202 are you to know the mind of God? It's like 1200 00:48:41,202 --> 00:48:43,746 women who are told it's your fault. What 1201 00:48:43,746 --> 00:48:47,778 were you wearing? How much did you drink? 1202 00:48:47,778 --> 00:48:51,222 And job refuses to accept that. He's like, 1203 00:48:51,222 --> 00:48:53,346 no, I didn't do anything wrong. We, the 1204 00:48:53,346 --> 00:48:55,030 reader, know why he suffered all of this. 1205 00:48:55,030 --> 00:48:57,426 Job doesn't know any of it. And he holds 1206 00:48:57,426 --> 00:48:59,606 onto his integrity. He holds on to the 1207 00:48:59,606 --> 00:49:02,054 truth of. His story, and in the end, he's 1208 00:49:02,054 --> 00:49:04,794 vindicated for it by God. And to me, that 1209 00:49:04,794 --> 00:49:09,606 seems like a very feminist takeaway. Yes, 1210 00:49:09,606 --> 00:49:13,834 it's beautiful. Love your perspective on 1211 00:49:13,834 --> 00:49:16,286 it and helps me learn even more nuance to 1212 00:49:16,286 --> 00:49:18,094 it and makes me want to reread it again. I 1213 00:49:18,094 --> 00:49:20,302 was in the middle of reading Job when I 1214 00:49:20,302 --> 00:49:23,086 was being spiritually abused by a pastor, 1215 00:49:23,086 --> 00:49:25,806 when I was a female pastor, working sort 1216 00:49:25,806 --> 00:49:28,318 of underneath him as he was the megachurch 1217 00:49:28,318 --> 00:49:30,574 pastor, and I was one of the associate 1218 00:49:30,574 --> 00:49:32,978 campus pastors, and I was reading Job when 1219 00:49:32,978 --> 00:49:34,818 it was all going down, and I ended up 1220 00:49:34,818 --> 00:49:37,874 being fired for my own abuse and blamed. 1221 00:49:37,874 --> 00:49:39,766 Why were you in a meeting with him? Why 1222 00:49:39,766 --> 00:49:42,294 did you ask that question? And reading Job 1223 00:49:42,294 --> 00:49:44,918 just gave me exactly all the things you're 1224 00:49:44,918 --> 00:49:47,734 saying when Job was being blamed by his 1225 00:49:47,734 --> 00:49:50,498 own friends. And just to be like, no, 1226 00:49:50,498 --> 00:49:52,394 that's not what happened. And it was to 1227 00:49:52,394 --> 00:49:54,634 me, as a survivor of abuse, a beautiful 1228 00:49:54,634 --> 00:49:56,598 book to read, but definitely want to 1229 00:49:56,598 --> 00:49:58,582 revisit it now in light of all the 1230 00:49:58,582 --> 00:50:01,398 feminist lens that you mentioned. And 1231 00:50:01,398 --> 00:50:03,722 there's so much richness in that book for 1232 00:50:03,722 --> 00:50:05,326 anybody who has suffered and been blamed 1233 00:50:05,326 --> 00:50:08,286 for your own suffering or abuse as well. 1234 00:50:08,286 --> 00:50:09,566 Well, I just want to say thank you for 1235 00:50:09,566 --> 00:50:11,802 this conversation today. It's been very 1236 00:50:11,802 --> 00:50:13,454 insightful, very thoughtful. Thank you for 1237 00:50:13,454 --> 00:50:15,666 all your scholarship and bringing it into 1238 00:50:15,666 --> 00:50:18,494 both this book and this conversation for 1239 00:50:18,494 --> 00:50:20,254 listeners around the world. I know that 1240 00:50:20,254 --> 00:50:22,430 eve, whether my muslim friends call her 1241 00:50:22,430 --> 00:50:26,174 Hawa or whether you're a jewish person 1242 00:50:26,174 --> 00:50:28,230 anywhere in the world, Eve is an important 1243 00:50:28,230 --> 00:50:31,202 figure for many of our religions, and 1244 00:50:31,202 --> 00:50:33,170 understanding her helps us understand 1245 00:50:33,170 --> 00:50:35,458 ourselves and how God sees us. And I think 1246 00:50:35,458 --> 00:50:37,906 it's so important to understand how 1247 00:50:37,906 --> 00:50:40,998 beloved we are as women and men made in 1248 00:50:40,998 --> 00:50:43,466 God's image, like it says in Genesis 127, 1249 00:50:43,466 --> 00:50:46,710 a verse that means so much to Christians, 1250 00:50:46,710 --> 00:50:48,922 Muslims, and jewish friends around the 1251 00:50:48,922 --> 00:50:50,918 world listening. So I'm going to have you 1252 00:50:50,918 --> 00:50:52,458 hang out later with our difference makers 1253 00:50:52,458 --> 00:50:54,918 and ask you another question there about 1254 00:50:54,918 --> 00:50:56,586 your experiences in the world and your 1255 00:50:56,586 --> 00:50:58,046 perspective on some things. But thank you 1256 00:50:58,046 --> 00:50:59,854 so much, Julie, for this conversation 1257 00:50:59,854 --> 00:51:01,374 today. How can people find you and more of 1258 00:51:01,374 --> 00:51:04,638 your writing? Just go to 1259 00:51:04,638 --> 00:51:07,402 juliefaithparker.com I've got my. Speaking 1260 00:51:07,402 --> 00:51:09,194 engagements coming up, free classes 1261 00:51:09,194 --> 00:51:11,618 online. And ways to get my books. Thank 1262 00:51:11,618 --> 00:51:13,026 you for asking, and thank you. So much for 1263 00:51:13,026 --> 00:51:14,386 having me. Laura, it's been such a joy to 1264 00:51:14,386 --> 00:51:15,982 talk with you. I'm so grateful for your 1265 00:51:15,982 --> 00:51:17,710 ministry of putting such meaningful 1266 00:51:17,710 --> 00:51:21,054 conversations out. Thank you. Thank you 1267 00:51:21,054 --> 00:51:22,630 Julie. It's nice to get to see you. In 1268 00:51:22,630 --> 00:51:24,054 person finally after having read your. 1269 00:51:24,054 --> 00:51:25,926 Book, and I'm excited for people to get a 1270 00:51:25,926 --> 00:51:27,126 hold of it. We'll put the link in the 1271 00:51:27,126 --> 00:51:28,722 show. Notes to your book. Thanks for this 1272 00:51:28,722 --> 00:51:30,994 conversation today Julie. Thank you Lori. 1273 00:51:30,994 --> 00:51:34,554 Ok everyone, Julie has blown us away. If 1274 00:51:34,554 --> 00:51:37,638 you have any inkling or have any remaining 1275 00:51:37,638 --> 00:51:38,934 thoughts in your head that Eve could 1276 00:51:38,934 --> 00:51:41,654 possibly be evil, just start this whole 1277 00:51:41,654 --> 00:51:45,002 podcast all over again and buy her book. 1278 00:51:45,002 --> 00:51:46,938 Because Eve is not evil. She has hopefully 1279 00:51:46,938 --> 00:51:49,278 cleared that up for us and also given us a 1280 00:51:49,278 --> 00:51:51,226 lot of insight into different women in the 1281 00:51:51,226 --> 00:51:53,386 ancient scriptures that we may have heard 1282 00:51:53,386 --> 00:51:55,282 sermons preached on in very different 1283 00:51:55,282 --> 00:51:57,714 ways. But as we dig deep through the lens 1284 00:51:57,714 --> 00:52:00,846 of women, as women are scholars out there 1285 00:52:00,846 --> 00:52:02,610 studying eleven languages like this 1286 00:52:02,610 --> 00:52:05,534 amazing woman, Julie, and just really 1287 00:52:05,534 --> 00:52:08,598 digging into the culture and the exegesis 1288 00:52:08,598 --> 00:52:10,546 of what was happening culturally in these 1289 00:52:10,546 --> 00:52:12,742 ancient times, around these lives of these 1290 00:52:12,742 --> 00:52:14,840 women, we start to see some different 1291 00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:17,798 things that were always there and yet were 1292 00:52:17,798 --> 00:52:20,234 just not pointed out to us. And I read 1293 00:52:20,234 --> 00:52:22,566 pretty extensively around different 1294 00:52:22,566 --> 00:52:24,150 stories of women in these ancient 1295 00:52:24,150 --> 00:52:26,490 scriptures written by different 1296 00:52:26,490 --> 00:52:28,426 theologians. But even in reading this 1297 00:52:28,426 --> 00:52:30,086 book, there were a lot of things that I. 1298 00:52:30,086 --> 00:52:32,218 Hadn'T considered before or ways she 1299 00:52:32,218 --> 00:52:34,586 framed it that were new insights. And I 1300 00:52:34,586 --> 00:52:36,366 learned quite a few things, and I'm sure 1301 00:52:36,366 --> 00:52:39,774 you will too. I found it very insightful 1302 00:52:39,774 --> 00:52:43,166 and refreshing because there is a message 1303 00:52:43,166 --> 00:52:45,054 that gets sent when we hear Eve is evil, 1304 00:52:45,054 --> 00:52:46,802 that maybe all women are evil, and all 1305 00:52:46,802 --> 00:52:49,522 women are somehow these temptresses and 1306 00:52:49,522 --> 00:52:51,358 trying to bring a good man down. But 1307 00:52:51,358 --> 00:52:53,138 that's not the case, and that's not been 1308 00:52:53,138 --> 00:52:55,154 the case since the beginning. But all of 1309 00:52:55,154 --> 00:52:57,378 us are image bearers, and that has a lot 1310 00:52:57,378 --> 00:52:59,302 to say, not just for this story in ancient 1311 00:52:59,302 --> 00:53:00,854 times, but who we are today and how we 1312 00:53:00,854 --> 00:53:03,590 view humanity today. And it can make a 1313 00:53:03,590 --> 00:53:06,934 world of difference to see yourself in 1314 00:53:06,934 --> 00:53:12,006 this way as a beloved creation of an 1315 00:53:12,006 --> 00:53:14,700 almighty God who cares about us, men and 1316 00:53:14,700 --> 00:53:18,074 women, and made us in God's own image, and 1317 00:53:18,074 --> 00:53:22,074 that we really deserve to see ourselves in 1318 00:53:22,074 --> 00:53:24,598 this light. So when you read the book evil 1319 00:53:24,598 --> 00:53:26,286 than evil, you kind of start to see some 1320 00:53:26,286 --> 00:53:28,574 things about yourself and they're really 1321 00:53:28,574 --> 00:53:30,606 good, good things. And I hope that you can 1322 00:53:30,606 --> 00:53:33,086 pick that book up and be refreshed in ways 1323 00:53:33,086 --> 00:53:38,046 that I was because I found it very just 1324 00:53:38,046 --> 00:53:40,606 refreshing to see these insights that she 1325 00:53:40,606 --> 00:53:42,658 brought out and intriguing. It made me 1326 00:53:42,658 --> 00:53:43,938 want to learn more, made me want to 1327 00:53:43,938 --> 00:53:46,338 research more. So I hope that it will for 1328 00:53:46,338 --> 00:53:48,334 you, too. So pick up her book, Eve isn't 1329 00:53:48,334 --> 00:53:52,054 evil. Such a great title. Also, for all of 1330 00:53:52,054 --> 00:53:54,086 you out there who are just doing so much 1331 00:53:54,086 --> 00:53:56,866 good in the world, I would love for you to 1332 00:53:56,866 --> 00:53:58,326 join our difference makers community 1333 00:53:58,326 --> 00:53:59,666 because we go a little bit deeper with 1334 00:53:59,666 --> 00:54:01,782 Julie there. She has some fun things to 1335 00:54:01,782 --> 00:54:03,718 say, and you get to know her a little bit 1336 00:54:03,718 --> 00:54:05,366 better, like all of our guests who come on 1337 00:54:05,366 --> 00:54:07,366 the show. And we go a little bit deeper in 1338 00:54:07,366 --> 00:54:09,318 our difference maker community. Also, it's 1339 00:54:09,318 --> 00:54:11,982 a place where and you and I can dm each 1340 00:54:11,982 --> 00:54:14,366 other, or you can answer our poll that's 1341 00:54:14,366 --> 00:54:15,666 coming up about what you want to see in 1342 00:54:15,666 --> 00:54:18,526 2024 and make a difference for what this 1343 00:54:18,526 --> 00:54:19,966 year is going to look like in the podcast 1344 00:54:19,966 --> 00:54:21,838 so that people all around the world that 1345 00:54:21,838 --> 00:54:24,998 listen can be impacted by some of the 1346 00:54:24,998 --> 00:54:27,330 choices we make on that poll together as 1347 00:54:27,330 --> 00:54:30,254 difference makers. So yeah, join us there. 1348 00:54:30,254 --> 00:54:32,706 Join Julie in a deeper episode, join any 1349 00:54:32,706 --> 00:54:35,394 of our guests from the last year, and all 1350 00:54:35,394 --> 00:54:37,874 those exclusive episodes will be just down 1351 00:54:37,874 --> 00:54:40,614 in that community for each of you. And you 1352 00:54:40,614 --> 00:54:42,678 can just binge that for an entire month if 1353 00:54:42,678 --> 00:54:44,918 you want, by joining for just one month. 1354 00:54:44,918 --> 00:54:46,630 Or you can stick around for a little bit 1355 00:54:46,630 --> 00:54:48,822 longer and subscribe and get all of our 1356 00:54:48,822 --> 00:54:50,742 future episodes and all the past ones, 1357 00:54:50,742 --> 00:54:52,038 because it's really kind of hard to get to 1358 00:54:52,038 --> 00:54:53,218 all of. Them in just one month. But 1359 00:54:53,218 --> 00:54:58,566 they're all there. And if you go to WW dot 1360 00:54:58,566 --> 00:55:00,318 patreon.com, a world of difference, you'll 1361 00:55:00,318 --> 00:55:03,550 be able to join us for as little as $5 a 1362 00:55:03,550 --> 00:55:05,966 month. I'd love to have you there. So in 1363 00:55:05,966 --> 00:55:07,822 the meantime, I know that all of you are 1364 00:55:07,822 --> 00:55:09,502 making such a difference around the world. 1365 00:55:09,502 --> 00:55:11,786 So as always, keep making a difference