Limor Bergman Gross: Crushing Career Stereotypes and Women in Tech Leadership

1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,458 You welcome to the A World of Difference 2 00:00:04,458 --> 00:00:06,766 podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown, and this is 3 00:00:06,766 --> 00:00:08,606 a podcast for those who are different and 4 00:00:08,606 --> 00:00:12,382 want to make a difference. Today on the 5 00:00:12,382 --> 00:00:14,666 show, we have someone coming to us 6 00:00:14,666 --> 00:00:17,530 straight from Israel. Her name is Lemore 7 00:00:17,530 --> 00:00:20,718 Bergman Gross. And for over 20 years, she 8 00:00:20,718 --> 00:00:23,658 worked as an engineer, manager and 9 00:00:23,658 --> 00:00:26,342 director of engineering and Tech IT. Now. 10 00:00:26,342 --> 00:00:29,446 She spent the past five years to dedicate 11 00:00:29,446 --> 00:00:32,550 her life to mentoring women in tech. And 12 00:00:32,550 --> 00:00:35,382 she has a strong passion around helping 13 00:00:35,382 --> 00:00:37,910 women to get to the C suite. She has a lot 14 00:00:37,910 --> 00:00:41,522 of tools and strategies and tips for 15 00:00:41,522 --> 00:00:43,146 people based on her experience of working 16 00:00:43,146 --> 00:00:45,946 in tech and working up the career ladder, 17 00:00:45,946 --> 00:00:48,906 as well as being a mom during that time. 18 00:00:48,906 --> 00:00:50,458 And so we're going to talk today about 19 00:00:50,458 --> 00:00:53,454 what it was like to work in tech and how 20 00:00:53,454 --> 00:00:57,162 she can help women to rise in their 21 00:00:57,162 --> 00:00:59,806 careers if that's what they desire to do. 22 00:00:59,806 --> 00:01:03,310 She has a lot of great information and 23 00:01:03,310 --> 00:01:05,534 work around just career development, 24 00:01:05,534 --> 00:01:06,914 specifically as it relates to the tech 25 00:01:06,914 --> 00:01:09,214 world. But a lot of her strategies are 26 00:01:09,214 --> 00:01:11,998 helpful in all types of careers. And also, 27 00:01:11,998 --> 00:01:15,442 it's a really helpful conversation to have 28 00:01:15,442 --> 00:01:16,706 with someone like this because I know 29 00:01:16,706 --> 00:01:18,546 there are many male allies that listen to 30 00:01:18,546 --> 00:01:21,046 this podcast. So if you're a manager or 31 00:01:21,046 --> 00:01:23,046 you work in a faith based space or you 32 00:01:23,046 --> 00:01:24,694 work in a nonprofit, you're going to get 33 00:01:24,694 --> 00:01:27,222 something out of this podcast today. So, 34 00:01:27,222 --> 00:01:29,514 yeah, happy to introduce you if you've not 35 00:01:29,514 --> 00:01:31,754 yet heard of her. So welcome to the show 36 00:01:31,754 --> 00:01:40,006 Today, Lemore Bergman Griff hello, 37 00:01:40,006 --> 00:01:42,254 Leymore. And thanks for coming onto the 38 00:01:42,254 --> 00:01:45,406 show today all the way from Israel. How 39 00:01:45,406 --> 00:01:49,438 are you doing today, Leymore hi, Lori. 40 00:01:49,438 --> 00:01:51,774 Thank you so much for having me. I'm doing 41 00:01:51,774 --> 00:01:54,334 great. It's a wonderful evening here. Yes, 42 00:01:54,334 --> 00:01:56,710 well, it's an early morning for me, and 43 00:01:56,710 --> 00:01:58,402 I'm glad that we got our time zones to 44 00:01:58,402 --> 00:02:00,786 connect and we could make this time work 45 00:02:00,786 --> 00:02:03,186 and really excited to get to know you a 46 00:02:03,186 --> 00:02:05,794 little bit better and allow you to bring 47 00:02:05,794 --> 00:02:07,906 your differences to the table today to 48 00:02:07,906 --> 00:02:09,654 make a difference in our lives. Those of 49 00:02:09,654 --> 00:02:12,338 us listening love to learn, and we love 50 00:02:12,338 --> 00:02:13,782 bringing on thought leaders, subject 51 00:02:13,782 --> 00:02:16,146 matter experts, and people who bring their 52 00:02:16,146 --> 00:02:18,154 differences to the table to help us grow. 53 00:02:18,154 --> 00:02:20,234 And so today, I'd love for you just to 54 00:02:20,234 --> 00:02:23,846 start off with the introduction of who is 55 00:02:23,846 --> 00:02:26,534 Lemore Bergman growth and how would you 56 00:02:26,534 --> 00:02:33,018 describe yourself to our audience? So I'll 57 00:02:33,018 --> 00:02:34,686 give you kind of a mission statement, I 58 00:02:34,686 --> 00:02:37,086 think, that will describe me the most. I'm 59 00:02:37,086 --> 00:02:40,394 on a mission to bring more women to the C 60 00:02:40,394 --> 00:02:43,934 suite in tech. I do that by mentoring, 61 00:02:43,934 --> 00:02:46,530 coaching, and supporting women in 62 00:02:46,530 --> 00:02:50,482 different roles. And I bring all my 63 00:02:50,482 --> 00:02:53,442 experience, all my years of experience in 64 00:02:53,442 --> 00:02:55,886 tech. I mean, I was an engineer, a 65 00:02:55,886 --> 00:02:58,062 software engineer, and grew into 66 00:02:58,062 --> 00:03:00,998 leadership roles both here in Israel and 67 00:03:00,998 --> 00:03:04,066 in the US. So that's kind of what I do. 68 00:03:04,066 --> 00:03:05,478 I'm trying to make my own difference in 69 00:03:05,478 --> 00:03:06,998 the world. Absolutely. That's why you're 70 00:03:06,998 --> 00:03:10,074 on the show today. And I love that. And we 71 00:03:10,074 --> 00:03:12,038 definitely need more female 72 00:03:12,038 --> 00:03:14,566 representation. And there are so many 73 00:03:14,566 --> 00:03:18,394 factors that are out of women's control. 74 00:03:18,394 --> 00:03:20,506 But the things we can control are what we 75 00:03:20,506 --> 00:03:22,362 also want to talk about today, as well as 76 00:03:22,362 --> 00:03:24,586 maybe give some tips to our male allies 77 00:03:24,586 --> 00:03:26,350 that want to be a part of helping make a 78 00:03:26,350 --> 00:03:29,454 difference, too. And so as we dig into 79 00:03:29,454 --> 00:03:31,022 this a little bit, tell us a little bit 80 00:03:31,022 --> 00:03:32,830 about your career journey. You worked in 81 00:03:32,830 --> 00:03:34,478 tech, you've lived in the US for a period 82 00:03:34,478 --> 00:03:36,650 of time. You were in the Denver area. You 83 00:03:36,650 --> 00:03:39,186 were also in Plano, in Texas for a while, 84 00:03:39,186 --> 00:03:41,450 and now you're back in Israel. Tell us a 85 00:03:41,450 --> 00:03:43,474 little bit about your career and why you 86 00:03:43,474 --> 00:03:48,950 came to this mission statement. Sure. So 87 00:03:48,950 --> 00:03:51,142 started my career as a software engineer, 88 00:03:51,142 --> 00:03:55,510 so I went into computer science in 89 00:03:55,510 --> 00:03:57,674 university because I thought that would 90 00:03:57,674 --> 00:04:02,554 make sense given my STem background and 91 00:04:02,554 --> 00:04:05,722 started my career in Israel. At some 92 00:04:05,722 --> 00:04:08,490 point, realized I wanted to become a 93 00:04:08,490 --> 00:04:13,774 manager. I have four children, and back 94 00:04:13,774 --> 00:04:15,566 then, when I wanted to become a manager, I 95 00:04:15,566 --> 00:04:18,510 was actually pregnant with my second child 96 00:04:18,510 --> 00:04:21,486 and nominated myself to a manager position 97 00:04:21,486 --> 00:04:24,100 and basically got my first manager 98 00:04:24,100 --> 00:04:27,218 position when I got back from maternity 99 00:04:27,218 --> 00:04:30,306 leave of my second son. So my big changes 100 00:04:30,306 --> 00:04:33,474 in my career actually happened related to 101 00:04:33,474 --> 00:04:37,794 new kids. So my first engineering 102 00:04:37,794 --> 00:04:42,182 management position was after I had a 103 00:04:42,182 --> 00:04:46,614 second child, and our move to the US was 104 00:04:46,614 --> 00:04:49,160 after I delivered my twins. So I have four 105 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,614 kids. The young ones are twins, and when 106 00:04:52,614 --> 00:04:55,594 they're babies, we move the entire family, 107 00:04:55,594 --> 00:04:58,614 all the six of us, to the US, to Denver, 108 00:04:58,614 --> 00:05:03,486 Colorado in the winter of 2010. It was 109 00:05:03,486 --> 00:05:06,334 kind of driven by my husband. His employer 110 00:05:06,334 --> 00:05:09,422 really wanted him to move. And we realized 111 00:05:09,422 --> 00:05:11,422 that it's an opportunity to do something 112 00:05:11,422 --> 00:05:13,374 else. I mean, I don't know if I was crazy 113 00:05:13,374 --> 00:05:17,794 or what, but I decided that it's an 114 00:05:17,794 --> 00:05:20,418 opportunity and I had to figure out if I 115 00:05:20,418 --> 00:05:22,754 want to take it or not. And I decided to 116 00:05:22,754 --> 00:05:25,518 take this opportunity despite all the 117 00:05:25,518 --> 00:05:27,686 difficulties and the unknowns. So moving 118 00:05:27,686 --> 00:05:30,630 to the US had to reinvent myself, 119 00:05:30,630 --> 00:05:32,406 basically. I mean, I continued my career, 120 00:05:32,406 --> 00:05:35,090 but it wasn't so easy because I was on a 121 00:05:35,090 --> 00:05:37,506 visa that employers, many employers, 122 00:05:37,506 --> 00:05:40,458 didn't know what to do with it, and 123 00:05:40,458 --> 00:05:43,418 obviously what was a new country for me. 124 00:05:43,418 --> 00:05:46,186 And, yeah, and I continue on that journey 125 00:05:46,186 --> 00:05:50,622 in the US, and we moved also in Denver, 126 00:05:50,622 --> 00:05:54,254 and we moved to Texas. And along the way, 127 00:05:54,254 --> 00:05:56,654 I found out several things. I found out 128 00:05:56,654 --> 00:06:00,906 that I'm driven by supporting other 129 00:06:00,906 --> 00:06:03,354 managers. So I started mentoring as a 130 00:06:03,354 --> 00:06:05,718 volunteer at the beginning of 2017. I 131 00:06:05,718 --> 00:06:07,934 loved it. I loved it. I got a lot of 132 00:06:07,934 --> 00:06:10,494 positive feedback that also with my 133 00:06:10,494 --> 00:06:12,354 growing passion to having more women, I 134 00:06:12,354 --> 00:06:15,154 mean, as I grew in my leadership roles, I 135 00:06:15,154 --> 00:06:18,674 saw fewer and fewer women there and fewer 136 00:06:18,674 --> 00:06:20,486 role models. A lot of times I didn't have 137 00:06:20,486 --> 00:06:23,382 any role models to look up to. Maybe 138 00:06:23,382 --> 00:06:26,738 someone from HR, but like no executive 139 00:06:26,738 --> 00:06:33,210 female at realized, I really want to 140 00:06:33,210 --> 00:06:36,154 change that. And when we decided to move 141 00:06:36,154 --> 00:06:38,794 back to Israel, I decided that was my 142 00:06:38,794 --> 00:06:41,114 opportunity because we made a huge change. 143 00:06:41,114 --> 00:06:44,302 As it is, we moved back. I had to leave my 144 00:06:44,302 --> 00:06:47,886 job. I said, okay, that's my sign, that's 145 00:06:47,886 --> 00:06:50,254 my cue that I have to make this change. 146 00:06:50,254 --> 00:06:54,366 Love your story. I know are going to 147 00:06:54,366 --> 00:06:55,778 resonate with our audience because we have 148 00:06:55,778 --> 00:06:59,566 a lot of people who've moved abroad and 149 00:06:59,566 --> 00:07:01,826 moved multiple times to multiple countries 150 00:07:01,826 --> 00:07:04,802 for various reasons, for being expats, for 151 00:07:04,802 --> 00:07:08,658 just immigration, and also because of 152 00:07:08,658 --> 00:07:10,770 unrest in certain places where that was a 153 00:07:10,770 --> 00:07:14,514 forced situation as well. And I have 154 00:07:14,514 --> 00:07:16,626 twins, by the wAy, and I also moved. My 155 00:07:16,626 --> 00:07:21,322 twins were born in 2007, and we moved in 156 00:07:21,322 --> 00:07:25,814 2009 from Indonesia to Singapore for a 157 00:07:25,814 --> 00:07:27,606 career move as well. And so I can somewhat 158 00:07:27,606 --> 00:07:29,740 relate to, and they're my youngest, too. 159 00:07:29,740 --> 00:07:33,738 So it is challenging. When I think about 160 00:07:33,738 --> 00:07:35,546 women getting to the C suite. I know that 161 00:07:35,546 --> 00:07:38,222 you've probably faced this, too. There's 162 00:07:38,222 --> 00:07:42,970 so much performance, so much, so many 163 00:07:42,970 --> 00:07:45,106 stereotypes. I don't know if you face that 164 00:07:45,106 --> 00:07:47,346 in the US or what your perspective was. 165 00:07:47,346 --> 00:07:50,114 And then also how that looks in Israel, 166 00:07:50,114 --> 00:07:53,822 which is know every culture and how 167 00:07:53,822 --> 00:07:55,746 cultures perceive women is really unique 168 00:07:55,746 --> 00:07:57,714 to that culture. And then at the same 169 00:07:57,714 --> 00:08:00,066 time, anywhere where there's sort of this 170 00:08:00,066 --> 00:08:02,646 patriarchy, there's some similarities. So 171 00:08:02,646 --> 00:08:06,326 do you feel like you were facing any sort 172 00:08:06,326 --> 00:08:08,474 of performance bias for yourself or that 173 00:08:08,474 --> 00:08:10,954 you saw other women facing, especially 174 00:08:10,954 --> 00:08:22,846 around the time of having. Absolutely. And 175 00:08:22,846 --> 00:08:26,946 I think that I saw that both in Israel and 176 00:08:26,946 --> 00:08:30,238 the US. And obviously it's a huge 177 00:08:30,238 --> 00:08:32,754 generalization. It depends on the company, 178 00:08:32,754 --> 00:08:35,186 it depends on the manager and the leaders. 179 00:08:35,186 --> 00:08:37,970 I mean, it varies, right? I cannot just 180 00:08:37,970 --> 00:08:41,286 generalize a country, but yes, I've seen 181 00:08:41,286 --> 00:08:43,206 that. Actually, when I was pregnant with 182 00:08:43,206 --> 00:08:47,414 my second child, I was miserable at on. 183 00:08:47,414 --> 00:08:49,414 Even before that, I was put on something 184 00:08:49,414 --> 00:08:51,686 that I really didn't want to do. I 185 00:08:51,686 --> 00:08:55,034 traveled quite a bit when I had my first. 186 00:08:55,034 --> 00:08:58,700 She was a baby, and I traveled from Israel 187 00:08:58,700 --> 00:09:02,270 to California one month and to Japan one 188 00:09:02,270 --> 00:09:04,462 month to do something I hated and I wasn't 189 00:09:04,462 --> 00:09:08,302 even good at. I was just used as a pond in 190 00:09:08,302 --> 00:09:13,326 someone else's toolbox, and I didn't feel 191 00:09:13,326 --> 00:09:16,610 like I had the support I needed. By the 192 00:09:16,610 --> 00:09:19,518 way, women not always support other women, 193 00:09:19,518 --> 00:09:21,374 unfortunately. So the manager above my 194 00:09:21,374 --> 00:09:23,774 manager was a woman, and I didn't feel she 195 00:09:23,774 --> 00:09:28,118 supported me as well. I don't hold grudges 196 00:09:28,118 --> 00:09:30,258 and all that, and I'm not victimizing, but 197 00:09:30,258 --> 00:09:34,294 I'm just saying, yes, there are biases to 198 00:09:34,294 --> 00:09:38,422 make a difference. We need to rise above 199 00:09:38,422 --> 00:09:42,070 those biases and see where we can make an 200 00:09:42,070 --> 00:09:44,938 impact and what kind of choices we have. 201 00:09:44,938 --> 00:09:47,366 So in my example back then, I had a 202 00:09:47,366 --> 00:09:51,434 choice. I could stay or I could leave, but 203 00:09:51,434 --> 00:09:53,594 I wanted to have another child. That was 204 00:09:53,594 --> 00:09:57,038 one of the conflicts that I had. Like have 205 00:09:57,038 --> 00:09:59,070 a child, not have a child. Right. You 206 00:09:59,070 --> 00:10:01,326 mentioned about being a mom. That's one of 207 00:10:01,326 --> 00:10:04,414 the challenges that we face as women, that 208 00:10:04,414 --> 00:10:07,266 when we want to expand the families, then 209 00:10:07,266 --> 00:10:09,646 we have to weigh in also the career 210 00:10:09,646 --> 00:10:12,462 progression, and how is that going to 211 00:10:12,462 --> 00:10:14,494 impact our careers? Unfortunately, it 212 00:10:14,494 --> 00:10:18,594 shouldn't be that way, but it is. I chose 213 00:10:18,594 --> 00:10:23,046 expanding my family. The interesting thing 214 00:10:23,046 --> 00:10:25,286 is that as I was pregnant, this 215 00:10:25,286 --> 00:10:27,382 opportunity for engineering manager came 216 00:10:27,382 --> 00:10:30,314 up, and eventually I actually benefited 217 00:10:30,314 --> 00:10:32,940 from it, but I didn't know that that way. 218 00:10:32,940 --> 00:10:37,180 So I guess that there are biases, but we 219 00:10:37,180 --> 00:10:43,114 have a lot of power to overcome them. 220 00:10:43,114 --> 00:10:45,310 Thank you for sharing that part of your 221 00:10:45,310 --> 00:10:47,934 story. I know that many people listening, 222 00:10:47,934 --> 00:10:49,946 whether they are women and they've 223 00:10:49,946 --> 00:10:51,454 considered having children, already have, 224 00:10:51,454 --> 00:10:54,446 or they're a man married to a woman who's 225 00:10:54,446 --> 00:10:55,902 also wanted to expand their family and 226 00:10:55,902 --> 00:10:57,506 have watched their wife have to go through 227 00:10:57,506 --> 00:10:59,106 some of these complicated decisions. It 228 00:10:59,106 --> 00:11:01,442 can be really challenging. Or even some 229 00:11:01,442 --> 00:11:03,374 people listening might be managers, and 230 00:11:03,374 --> 00:11:06,034 they're also trying to figure out how to 231 00:11:06,034 --> 00:11:08,194 not have any sort of performance bias 232 00:11:08,194 --> 00:11:09,814 against the women that maybe directly 233 00:11:09,814 --> 00:11:12,438 report to them. So all of these things 234 00:11:12,438 --> 00:11:14,550 that we're talking about are super 235 00:11:14,550 --> 00:11:16,790 helpful. When you think about getting 236 00:11:16,790 --> 00:11:20,374 women to the C suite, what is your 237 00:11:20,374 --> 00:11:22,358 perspective on some of the biggest 238 00:11:22,358 --> 00:11:27,334 obstacles to overcome? So there are 239 00:11:27,334 --> 00:11:29,002 obstacles that are internal to those 240 00:11:29,002 --> 00:11:31,062 women, and there are obstacles that are 241 00:11:31,062 --> 00:11:34,142 external. The internal ones are just 242 00:11:34,142 --> 00:11:38,030 having a sense of a, this is feasible for 243 00:11:38,030 --> 00:11:41,710 me. I can see myself sitting at that 244 00:11:41,710 --> 00:11:46,722 table. I'm confident in my ability. I'm 245 00:11:46,722 --> 00:11:50,706 worth it. I deserve it. I have a seat at 246 00:11:50,706 --> 00:11:54,014 that table. My voice matters. I have a 247 00:11:54,014 --> 00:11:55,954 unique voice. I'm different, but it's a 248 00:11:55,954 --> 00:11:59,410 good thing. So those are all the internal 249 00:11:59,410 --> 00:12:01,814 things that women. A lot of times, I mean, 250 00:12:01,814 --> 00:12:04,246 I had that too, right? We understand that 251 00:12:04,246 --> 00:12:06,354 we are different. We don't see role 252 00:12:06,354 --> 00:12:08,614 models, we don't see anyone else. And then 253 00:12:08,614 --> 00:12:11,882 we start kind of doubting ourselves 254 00:12:11,882 --> 00:12:14,106 whether we actually belong there, whether 255 00:12:14,106 --> 00:12:17,754 we are capable and so forth. The external 256 00:12:17,754 --> 00:12:21,706 thing Is the biases, right? Those that are 257 00:12:21,706 --> 00:12:25,022 sitting there already, whether they see us 258 00:12:25,022 --> 00:12:28,462 as worthy, whether they see us as someone 259 00:12:28,462 --> 00:12:33,390 that can provide value, although we are 260 00:12:33,390 --> 00:12:35,182 different, although we bring something 261 00:12:35,182 --> 00:12:37,058 else, because we are different, because we 262 00:12:37,058 --> 00:12:40,114 are not part of the boys Club, because we 263 00:12:40,114 --> 00:12:43,518 are unique. And a lot of times, and again, 264 00:12:43,518 --> 00:12:44,994 I'm not saying anything that they are 265 00:12:44,994 --> 00:12:48,360 doing it from bad intentions, but a lot of 266 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,266 times. And this is why I am a huge 267 00:12:51,266 --> 00:12:53,542 proponent of diversity, related not just 268 00:12:53,542 --> 00:12:58,070 to gender. When everyone is alike and 269 00:12:58,070 --> 00:13:02,550 everyone think the same, there is a basic 270 00:13:02,550 --> 00:13:04,522 hesitation to bring anyone that is 271 00:13:04,522 --> 00:13:06,314 different. I had it, I'll give an example 272 00:13:06,314 --> 00:13:09,834 like I had in one of the companies, people 273 00:13:09,834 --> 00:13:12,090 that brought, you know how it is, refer a 274 00:13:12,090 --> 00:13:14,974 friend program. It's a great thing. But 275 00:13:14,974 --> 00:13:17,818 what happened was that there were a lot of 276 00:13:17,818 --> 00:13:19,438 referrals of people who worked at the same 277 00:13:19,438 --> 00:13:23,630 team. And then what it created like an 278 00:13:23,630 --> 00:13:28,286 internal club, closed club, of those 279 00:13:28,286 --> 00:13:30,466 people who came from the same company. So 280 00:13:30,466 --> 00:13:34,754 this is kind of the problem that it's like 281 00:13:34,754 --> 00:13:39,926 a closed circle. Yeah, I've seen that 282 00:13:39,926 --> 00:13:43,174 happen in more than one situation. It is 283 00:13:43,174 --> 00:13:47,046 the truth that most people get hired in a 284 00:13:47,046 --> 00:13:48,614 situation where they know someone. That's 285 00:13:48,614 --> 00:13:52,006 just statistically true. And there's a lot 286 00:13:52,006 --> 00:13:54,378 of reasons for that. On the recruiting 287 00:13:54,378 --> 00:13:56,966 side, it is a risk every time a recruiter 288 00:13:56,966 --> 00:13:58,726 brings someone new into a company that 289 00:13:58,726 --> 00:14:00,794 doesn't know someone there, because people 290 00:14:00,794 --> 00:14:03,386 can present themselves very well on paper. 291 00:14:03,386 --> 00:14:05,914 They may even have good references. Their 292 00:14:05,914 --> 00:14:07,646 LinkedIn may look incredible and they may 293 00:14:07,646 --> 00:14:10,286 say all these things, but then, every now 294 00:14:10,286 --> 00:14:13,294 and then you get someone that it wasn't a 295 00:14:13,294 --> 00:14:15,966 good fit and you couldn't tell because 296 00:14:15,966 --> 00:14:18,026 they didn't know someone. And so there is 297 00:14:18,026 --> 00:14:20,142 that side. I know that people on the 298 00:14:20,142 --> 00:14:21,586 recruiting side, and I've been on that 299 00:14:21,586 --> 00:14:24,766 side in these interviews before, it always 300 00:14:24,766 --> 00:14:26,434 helps to know you can trust this person 301 00:14:26,434 --> 00:14:29,234 when somebody inside says, I know them. 302 00:14:29,234 --> 00:14:31,682 However, the downside is that you get a 303 00:14:31,682 --> 00:14:33,990 group think with people who are so 304 00:14:33,990 --> 00:14:36,870 similar, and groupthink really inhibits 305 00:14:36,870 --> 00:14:39,846 innovation. And in tech that's huge. We 306 00:14:39,846 --> 00:14:41,782 have to have the ability to innovate. 307 00:14:41,782 --> 00:14:46,058 That's exactly how these companies grow. 308 00:14:46,058 --> 00:14:47,754 Another question related to this. You have 309 00:14:47,754 --> 00:14:49,702 worked in tech for so long, and we've 310 00:14:49,702 --> 00:14:51,726 recently had here in Silicon Valley, quite 311 00:14:51,726 --> 00:14:54,334 a few tech layoffs because of what's been 312 00:14:54,334 --> 00:14:59,786 going on in the last year or so. And so 313 00:14:59,786 --> 00:15:02,346 there's a lot of people looking for new 314 00:15:02,346 --> 00:15:04,766 roles. And today, speaking of LinkedIn, 315 00:15:04,766 --> 00:15:07,506 there really is a piece of it that knowing 316 00:15:07,506 --> 00:15:09,714 how to present yourself on LinkedIn can be 317 00:15:09,714 --> 00:15:13,586 quite hard. And I think specifically, men 318 00:15:13,586 --> 00:15:15,822 and women are often socialized really 319 00:15:15,822 --> 00:15:18,886 differently around this. Self promotion is 320 00:15:18,886 --> 00:15:22,918 really so much more fraught for women in a 321 00:15:22,918 --> 00:15:27,474 lot of cases where it decreases likability 322 00:15:27,474 --> 00:15:30,530 factor for them if they look ambitious or 323 00:15:30,530 --> 00:15:33,466 present themselves. And yet there are ways 324 00:15:33,466 --> 00:15:36,074 to do it that can maybe minimize some of 325 00:15:36,074 --> 00:15:39,126 that. And you mentioned that you also 326 00:15:39,126 --> 00:15:40,746 offered yourself up for a manager 327 00:15:40,746 --> 00:15:44,634 position. So what advice would you give to 328 00:15:44,634 --> 00:15:46,938 women and men who are trying to promote 329 00:15:46,938 --> 00:15:49,134 themselves for a new role and how to do 330 00:15:49,134 --> 00:15:50,814 that in a way that's going to make it a 331 00:15:50,814 --> 00:15:52,926 little easier on the likability for women, 332 00:15:52,926 --> 00:15:56,226 if there is such a thing? Yeah. So first 333 00:15:56,226 --> 00:15:59,650 of all, when you are on the look for a new 334 00:15:59,650 --> 00:16:06,670 role, you have to get into the head of the 335 00:16:06,670 --> 00:16:08,434 recruiter, the hiring manager. What are 336 00:16:08,434 --> 00:16:10,550 they looking for? First of all, so do your 337 00:16:10,550 --> 00:16:12,326 research. I always recommend people I work 338 00:16:12,326 --> 00:16:14,614 with on LinkedIn. Like for example, do 339 00:16:14,614 --> 00:16:17,090 your research. Look at different job 340 00:16:17,090 --> 00:16:18,646 descriptions, see what kind of qualities 341 00:16:18,646 --> 00:16:21,490 they are looking for. We tend to think 342 00:16:21,490 --> 00:16:24,186 inwards about ourselves. What do I want? 343 00:16:24,186 --> 00:16:27,674 What have I done? No, first of all, start 344 00:16:27,674 --> 00:16:30,362 with the opposite. Think, what do they 345 00:16:30,362 --> 00:16:32,702 want? What are they looking for? What do 346 00:16:32,702 --> 00:16:36,334 they value? Then ask yourself, where do I 347 00:16:36,334 --> 00:16:39,374 fit in? What kind of skills and qualities 348 00:16:39,374 --> 00:16:41,786 I have that are super valuable for what 349 00:16:41,786 --> 00:16:44,962 they're looking for. And highlight those. 350 00:16:44,962 --> 00:16:48,194 Make sure that you speak in the language 351 00:16:48,194 --> 00:16:51,620 that they want to hear, that basically you 352 00:16:51,620 --> 00:16:54,526 address what they are looking for. You 353 00:16:54,526 --> 00:16:57,246 solve their problems. That's the biggest 354 00:16:57,246 --> 00:17:00,562 tip I have. And overall, like LinkedIn 355 00:17:00,562 --> 00:17:02,838 branding, that's a marathon. That's not 356 00:17:02,838 --> 00:17:04,566 like one thing that you do when you look 357 00:17:04,566 --> 00:17:07,446 for a job. It something I started doing 358 00:17:07,446 --> 00:17:09,986 when I moved to the US. I had a LinkedIn 359 00:17:09,986 --> 00:17:12,202 profile, like a bare minimum, and I 360 00:17:12,202 --> 00:17:14,378 started nurturing that. And I do that 361 00:17:14,378 --> 00:17:16,090 still. Now it's more focused on my 362 00:17:16,090 --> 00:17:19,814 business. But that was a long haul that I 363 00:17:19,814 --> 00:17:22,746 continued investing in, and it bear 364 00:17:22,746 --> 00:17:29,022 fruits. I got all the time inbound request 365 00:17:29,022 --> 00:17:31,902 from recruiters and hiring managers. And 366 00:17:31,902 --> 00:17:34,590 even if you think that now is the worst 367 00:17:34,590 --> 00:17:36,914 time, a lot of people lost their job. 368 00:17:36,914 --> 00:17:39,246 Still, some companies are still hiring. 369 00:17:39,246 --> 00:17:41,646 They're looking for some people in some 370 00:17:41,646 --> 00:17:43,666 skill set. So there is always a need, 371 00:17:43,666 --> 00:17:45,906 there is always an opportunity. Think that 372 00:17:45,906 --> 00:17:49,910 the mindset of basically that there is 373 00:17:49,910 --> 00:17:51,958 always abundance, there is always 374 00:17:51,958 --> 00:17:54,806 something out there for everyone is very 375 00:17:54,806 --> 00:17:57,954 important. Otherwise you sink into 376 00:17:57,954 --> 00:18:01,766 negativity and there's nothing for me, and 377 00:18:01,766 --> 00:18:06,266 that's not helpful. Yeah, it's so true. 378 00:18:06,266 --> 00:18:09,738 And there is so much psychology around 379 00:18:09,738 --> 00:18:13,558 being laid off or fired from a job for 380 00:18:13,558 --> 00:18:14,558 people who've walked through that, that 381 00:18:14,558 --> 00:18:16,302 are listening, you know what I'm talking 382 00:18:16,302 --> 00:18:19,854 about. But it's a grief process. People 383 00:18:19,854 --> 00:18:22,670 walk through a lot of shock, especially 384 00:18:22,670 --> 00:18:26,258 when it was so unexpected. And then often 385 00:18:26,258 --> 00:18:28,978 the goodbyes can be complicated because 386 00:18:28,978 --> 00:18:30,210 sometimes the need to get out of the 387 00:18:30,210 --> 00:18:33,394 office quickly happens. So picking oneself 388 00:18:33,394 --> 00:18:36,594 up from that shock and grief experience 389 00:18:36,594 --> 00:18:38,742 and the psychology around all of that, 390 00:18:38,742 --> 00:18:42,066 while having to be somebody who's 391 00:18:42,066 --> 00:18:43,698 promoting themselves to want to get hired 392 00:18:43,698 --> 00:18:47,746 somewhere else, it can be a very difficult 393 00:18:47,746 --> 00:18:51,046 mental health journey for a lot of people. 394 00:18:51,046 --> 00:18:53,594 Do you have any advice for people as they 395 00:18:53,594 --> 00:18:55,914 walk through that and how? Were there any 396 00:18:55,914 --> 00:18:57,146 things that have been helpful that you 397 00:18:57,146 --> 00:19:00,826 have seen along the way? Yeah, it's very 398 00:19:00,826 --> 00:19:04,666 difficult. It's not easy. First of all, 399 00:19:04,666 --> 00:19:06,958 griefing is okay, right? I mean, it's not 400 00:19:06,958 --> 00:19:09,038 easy. It's a crisis. A lot of times it's 401 00:19:09,038 --> 00:19:11,402 the biggest cris people face in their 402 00:19:11,402 --> 00:19:14,674 lifetime. Right. Losing a job. First of 403 00:19:14,674 --> 00:19:16,866 all, surround yourself with supportive. 404 00:19:16,866 --> 00:19:19,378 With supportive people, friends, family, 405 00:19:19,378 --> 00:19:22,226 anyone that is supportive. Stay away from 406 00:19:22,226 --> 00:19:24,482 people that maybe bring negativity. 407 00:19:24,482 --> 00:19:26,642 Because sometimes it can be that your best 408 00:19:26,642 --> 00:19:28,934 friends or the people that you hang out 409 00:19:28,934 --> 00:19:31,702 with the most, well, they may not be the 410 00:19:31,702 --> 00:19:35,558 best people to hang around when you are 411 00:19:35,558 --> 00:19:38,562 down, because some people are just 412 00:19:38,562 --> 00:19:43,366 sarcastic, maybe they bring this negative 413 00:19:43,366 --> 00:19:46,010 mindset. So just be aware of that. The 414 00:19:46,010 --> 00:19:49,642 second thing is that volunteering can help 415 00:19:49,642 --> 00:19:52,202 you, although it sounds kind of weird, but 416 00:19:52,202 --> 00:19:54,170 that can help you actually build your 417 00:19:54,170 --> 00:19:56,718 confidence. So think about, okay, I gained 418 00:19:56,718 --> 00:20:01,262 a lot of skills. Who can I help? Like, for 419 00:20:01,262 --> 00:20:03,594 example, when I started mentoring, you 420 00:20:03,594 --> 00:20:05,234 cannot believe the amount of confidence I 421 00:20:05,234 --> 00:20:08,260 got out of it. Just giving back to 422 00:20:08,260 --> 00:20:11,822 someone, sharing my expertise, getting the 423 00:20:11,822 --> 00:20:15,074 feedback, went long ways to my confidence. 424 00:20:15,074 --> 00:20:17,640 So think about mentoring. Think about, 425 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,694 okay, with all the knowledge that I gained 426 00:20:20,694 --> 00:20:24,214 and who can I help? If you help someone 427 00:20:24,214 --> 00:20:26,502 else, it boosts your confidence. You're 428 00:20:26,502 --> 00:20:28,274 doing something. You're actually 429 00:20:28,274 --> 00:20:29,786 identifying your skills. It helps you kind 430 00:20:29,786 --> 00:20:32,362 of sharpen what kind of skills I have, and 431 00:20:32,362 --> 00:20:34,538 maybe those people eventually can connect 432 00:20:34,538 --> 00:20:37,306 it to some other people. Something good 433 00:20:37,306 --> 00:20:42,830 will come out of that. Yeah, I love that 434 00:20:42,830 --> 00:20:45,978 perspective. We can't control the 435 00:20:45,978 --> 00:20:49,070 curveballs that life gives us, but we can 436 00:20:49,070 --> 00:20:52,186 control how we respond. Right. And 437 00:20:52,186 --> 00:20:55,370 sticking to what we know, being able to be 438 00:20:55,370 --> 00:20:56,946 moldable and surrounding ourselves with 439 00:20:56,946 --> 00:20:58,594 good, supportive people, I think that's 440 00:20:58,594 --> 00:21:02,018 really good advice. And considering so 441 00:21:02,018 --> 00:21:04,642 many companies, you said, like you said, 442 00:21:04,642 --> 00:21:06,686 some have laid people off, but some are 443 00:21:06,686 --> 00:21:10,054 hiring right now. And so a lot of people 444 00:21:10,054 --> 00:21:12,134 are having this experience over the last 445 00:21:12,134 --> 00:21:15,746 few years, especially a lot of remote 446 00:21:15,746 --> 00:21:17,720 employees. And I know that especially for 447 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:22,106 women we see over and over again. McKinsey 448 00:21:22,106 --> 00:21:25,354 and company just last month released their 449 00:21:25,354 --> 00:21:27,386 state of women in the workforce research 450 00:21:27,386 --> 00:21:29,722 that they do every year. And one of the 451 00:21:29,722 --> 00:21:32,150 things that continually comes up, 452 00:21:32,150 --> 00:21:34,414 particularly for women in the workforce, 453 00:21:34,414 --> 00:21:37,162 is how important the ability to work 454 00:21:37,162 --> 00:21:39,566 remotely or hybrid is for women in 455 00:21:39,566 --> 00:21:41,710 particular, because of all the reasons 456 00:21:41,710 --> 00:21:44,206 where women often are doing the second 457 00:21:44,206 --> 00:21:47,230 shift of the unpaid labor at home, either 458 00:21:47,230 --> 00:21:51,886 exclusively or the majority of iT. And so 459 00:21:51,886 --> 00:21:54,226 that's why remote work allows them to stay 460 00:21:54,226 --> 00:21:57,374 in the workforce in ways that they 461 00:21:57,374 --> 00:21:59,574 otherwise would not be able to. But 462 00:21:59,574 --> 00:22:02,454 companies onboarding new remote employees, 463 00:22:02,454 --> 00:22:05,126 that can be challenging. So what advice do 464 00:22:05,126 --> 00:22:07,186 you have for companies that are doing the 465 00:22:07,186 --> 00:22:09,820 onboarding process mostly remotely right 466 00:22:09,820 --> 00:22:14,074 now? Yeah. So I worked remote since 2016, 467 00:22:14,074 --> 00:22:18,086 way before the pandemic. I think that it 468 00:22:18,086 --> 00:22:21,094 starts with a mindset. When you work with 469 00:22:21,094 --> 00:22:23,662 remote people, you have to be investing 470 00:22:23,662 --> 00:22:26,654 more time in processes like structure, 471 00:22:26,654 --> 00:22:30,558 more structure, and in being deliberate 472 00:22:30,558 --> 00:22:34,066 about building relationships and trust. So 473 00:22:34,066 --> 00:22:36,734 first of all, have a well defined 474 00:22:36,734 --> 00:22:39,422 onboarding process, company wide, and then 475 00:22:39,422 --> 00:22:41,982 department wide, and then team wide. Well 476 00:22:41,982 --> 00:22:46,606 defined, well documented. I'm not a 477 00:22:46,606 --> 00:22:49,154 process kind of fanatic. I'm not a process 478 00:22:49,154 --> 00:22:53,078 oriented person. But when I worked remote, 479 00:22:53,078 --> 00:22:57,190 I really made a huge effort in defining 480 00:22:57,190 --> 00:23:00,838 onboarding and made a list of, okay, 481 00:23:00,838 --> 00:23:03,146 someone starting, who is their buddy, who 482 00:23:03,146 --> 00:23:05,786 is kind of accompanying them, who do they 483 00:23:05,786 --> 00:23:08,346 need to meet in their first week? Who do 484 00:23:08,346 --> 00:23:10,074 they need to meet in their second week? 485 00:23:10,074 --> 00:23:12,142 Even I set up meetings for those people. I 486 00:23:12,142 --> 00:23:14,350 thought that needed that extra kind of 487 00:23:14,350 --> 00:23:19,200 help facilitating that define 30, 60, 90 488 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,794 day plan and what success. So be 489 00:23:22,794 --> 00:23:25,106 deliberate about setting even more than 490 00:23:25,106 --> 00:23:26,626 when you work in an office. Because when 491 00:23:26,626 --> 00:23:28,654 you work in an office, you have more than 492 00:23:28,654 --> 00:23:30,594 informal interactions. You have to invest 493 00:23:30,594 --> 00:23:35,810 more time in setting the expectations, in 494 00:23:35,810 --> 00:23:39,202 building the onboarding process and then 495 00:23:39,202 --> 00:23:41,862 checking in with people deliberately. 496 00:23:41,862 --> 00:23:43,606 Again, you don't have the opportunity to 497 00:23:43,606 --> 00:23:47,186 see them in the coffee break or getting to 498 00:23:47,186 --> 00:23:49,106 lunch. So you have to be deliberate about 499 00:23:49,106 --> 00:23:51,974 it, checking in, maybe reaching out in 500 00:23:51,974 --> 00:23:55,702 slack, maybe setting up some time. I was 501 00:23:55,702 --> 00:23:57,706 fanatic with one on ones, and believe me, 502 00:23:57,706 --> 00:24:01,510 when you manage engineers, they don't like 503 00:24:01,510 --> 00:24:03,722 meetings, even more so than managers. 504 00:24:03,722 --> 00:24:05,694 Right? And I said, why do I need to meet 505 00:24:05,694 --> 00:24:08,494 with you? And I said, well, you need to 506 00:24:08,494 --> 00:24:10,986 meet with me because I want to see how 507 00:24:10,986 --> 00:24:14,590 you're doing. Even if we just spend five 508 00:24:14,590 --> 00:24:16,626 minutes, you tell me everything is fine, 509 00:24:16,626 --> 00:24:19,294 and then we say bye until next week, 510 00:24:19,294 --> 00:24:22,498 that's fine. That kind of force, that kind 511 00:24:22,498 --> 00:24:25,506 of thing. Because sometimes things come up 512 00:24:25,506 --> 00:24:29,746 and if you don't have that meeting, I will 513 00:24:29,746 --> 00:24:32,046 not be aware of that. I don't know what 514 00:24:32,046 --> 00:24:33,654 someone is going through if I don't see 515 00:24:33,654 --> 00:24:35,298 them, if I don't see their face, if I 516 00:24:35,298 --> 00:24:37,462 don't see like maybe they're going through 517 00:24:37,462 --> 00:24:40,406 something in life. I have no ability to 518 00:24:40,406 --> 00:24:43,180 see that when they are not next to me. 519 00:24:43,180 --> 00:24:47,306 Yeah, so good. Really helpful. Because I 520 00:24:47,306 --> 00:24:49,098 think the onboarding experience, we have 521 00:24:49,098 --> 00:24:50,954 all this research to show, like how you 522 00:24:50,954 --> 00:24:52,858 start people off, it really sets the tone 523 00:24:52,858 --> 00:24:54,666 for how they're going to feel about the 524 00:24:54,666 --> 00:24:57,086 company going forward. And you really get 525 00:24:57,086 --> 00:24:58,942 one chance to do that well, and it's not 526 00:24:58,942 --> 00:25:00,606 easy, it's very time consuming. But I 527 00:25:00,606 --> 00:25:02,046 think that hitting the highlights, like 528 00:25:02,046 --> 00:25:03,854 you mentioned, are really important. And 529 00:25:03,854 --> 00:25:07,374 having those open communications too 530 00:25:07,374 --> 00:25:08,658 remote teams, like you mentioned, you have 531 00:25:08,658 --> 00:25:10,674 to work a lot on building relationships 532 00:25:10,674 --> 00:25:13,474 and building trust. Any tips around that 533 00:25:13,474 --> 00:25:17,166 for people who may be know, we have global 534 00:25:17,166 --> 00:25:19,282 workforce know? So you might have somebody 535 00:25:19,282 --> 00:25:23,346 living here in California and they know 536 00:25:23,346 --> 00:25:25,046 interactions with a remote team in China 537 00:25:25,046 --> 00:25:28,434 or Taiwan. And so they're not only 538 00:25:28,434 --> 00:25:31,862 opposite time zones, but also cultural 539 00:25:31,862 --> 00:25:34,346 communication is so different. One might 540 00:25:34,346 --> 00:25:36,154 be more of a direct communicator, one 541 00:25:36,154 --> 00:25:39,110 might be more of a high context 542 00:25:39,110 --> 00:25:41,722 communication. There's so many nuances 543 00:25:41,722 --> 00:25:43,626 there. Any tips on how to build 544 00:25:43,626 --> 00:25:45,306 relationships and trust with these remote 545 00:25:45,306 --> 00:25:49,914 global teams? Absolutely. So obviously, 546 00:25:49,914 --> 00:25:52,094 it's much, much more challenging when you 547 00:25:52,094 --> 00:25:54,926 work with people from a totally different 548 00:25:54,926 --> 00:25:58,100 culture. You have to first of all, 549 00:25:58,100 --> 00:26:02,466 understand that they are different. So you 550 00:26:02,466 --> 00:26:06,478 need to start getting to know them, 551 00:26:06,478 --> 00:26:09,010 understanding their motivations, 552 00:26:09,010 --> 00:26:11,206 understanding how they like to work, how 553 00:26:11,206 --> 00:26:12,966 they like to communicate. What do they 554 00:26:12,966 --> 00:26:14,646 need from you? And in order to know that, 555 00:26:14,646 --> 00:26:16,840 you need to ask. There is no way you can 556 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,534 guess asking what are they expecting from 557 00:26:20,534 --> 00:26:22,550 you? What do they need from you as their 558 00:26:22,550 --> 00:26:24,346 manager? What is important to them, what 559 00:26:24,346 --> 00:26:27,546 are their goals? What kind of environment 560 00:26:27,546 --> 00:26:30,634 do they need to succeed? So just asking. I 561 00:26:30,634 --> 00:26:33,434 mean, sometimes people are, especially in 562 00:26:33,434 --> 00:26:36,574 cultures that are not very open. They may 563 00:26:36,574 --> 00:26:38,846 not elaborate if you will not ask. So you 564 00:26:38,846 --> 00:26:43,774 need to be a great at asking questions and 565 00:26:43,774 --> 00:26:47,078 be curious instead of making assumptions. 566 00:26:47,078 --> 00:26:50,718 Adopt curiosity over judgment and 567 00:26:50,718 --> 00:26:53,186 assumptions, because we judge people when 568 00:26:53,186 --> 00:26:56,114 we look from our own lenses and someone 569 00:26:56,114 --> 00:26:58,462 that may operate on a completely different 570 00:26:58,462 --> 00:26:59,814 operating system, right? I mean, they have 571 00:26:59,814 --> 00:27:02,134 their own values and the way they operate 572 00:27:02,134 --> 00:27:04,194 is totally different. And then we make 573 00:27:04,194 --> 00:27:06,310 assumptions and we judge them. So be 574 00:27:06,310 --> 00:27:11,330 curious. Really good. I love that the 575 00:27:11,330 --> 00:27:13,386 curiosity is what leads to knowledge. And 576 00:27:13,386 --> 00:27:15,286 if we don't have that curiosity, then we 577 00:27:15,286 --> 00:27:18,106 don't know. And knowing people and knowing 578 00:27:18,106 --> 00:27:20,266 them deeply and knowing them well is a way 579 00:27:20,266 --> 00:27:23,018 to build trust and doing what we say we're 580 00:27:23,018 --> 00:27:25,886 going to do and doing our best with each 581 00:27:25,886 --> 00:27:29,434 other. And I do really appreciate that 582 00:27:29,434 --> 00:27:30,606 perspective because it is so true. I've 583 00:27:30,606 --> 00:27:33,114 found it to be true again and again. 584 00:27:33,114 --> 00:27:36,386 Communication is really key there. Some 585 00:27:36,386 --> 00:27:38,578 people struggle, especially remotely when 586 00:27:38,578 --> 00:27:41,726 it comes to sort of delegating. And as 587 00:27:41,726 --> 00:27:44,226 leaders and managers and organizations 588 00:27:44,226 --> 00:27:45,650 where there's a lot on our plate, 589 00:27:45,650 --> 00:27:47,426 sometimes you feel like there's much more 590 00:27:47,426 --> 00:27:48,966 than you can accomplish in a given week 591 00:27:48,966 --> 00:27:50,966 because some of these companies that some 592 00:27:50,966 --> 00:27:53,926 of us work for just move fast and there's 593 00:27:53,926 --> 00:27:58,246 a lot expected of us. And yet delegation 594 00:27:58,246 --> 00:28:00,486 can be a really big challenge for a lot of 595 00:28:00,486 --> 00:28:02,922 managers and leaders. Do you have any tips 596 00:28:02,922 --> 00:28:07,500 about that for people? Yeah, absolutely. 597 00:28:07,500 --> 00:28:11,434 So it's an acquired skill. First of all, I 598 00:28:11,434 --> 00:28:15,466 think that you need to ask yourself, what 599 00:28:15,466 --> 00:28:17,982 are the things that I do that makes the 600 00:28:17,982 --> 00:28:20,606 most impact? So looking at all the things 601 00:28:20,606 --> 00:28:22,990 that you do, first of all, and assessing 602 00:28:22,990 --> 00:28:25,006 impact, the things that you do that maybe 603 00:28:25,006 --> 00:28:28,194 are not making the most impact, thinking, 604 00:28:28,194 --> 00:28:30,850 okay, who is maybe a better fit to do 605 00:28:30,850 --> 00:28:32,802 them? Maybe it's someone from your team, 606 00:28:32,802 --> 00:28:35,282 maybe someone else. I don't know. The 607 00:28:35,282 --> 00:28:38,594 other way to look about it is if I 608 00:28:38,594 --> 00:28:41,218 delegate something to someone. Maybe 609 00:28:41,218 --> 00:28:43,218 that's not like, for example, when 610 00:28:43,218 --> 00:28:45,670 engineers grow to be managers, it's very 611 00:28:45,670 --> 00:28:48,614 difficult for them to let go of technical 612 00:28:48,614 --> 00:28:51,394 stuff that they used to do, maybe taking 613 00:28:51,394 --> 00:28:53,866 architecture decisions, making. But then 614 00:28:53,866 --> 00:28:55,962 you need to ask yourself, is it the best 615 00:28:55,962 --> 00:28:58,774 use of our time? Because maybe I'm a great 616 00:28:58,774 --> 00:29:00,698 technical engineer, but now I'm a manager, 617 00:29:00,698 --> 00:29:03,150 so I have other things to worry about. And 618 00:29:03,150 --> 00:29:07,194 maybe I'm most effective in nurturing my 619 00:29:07,194 --> 00:29:09,326 teams, helping them grow, building 620 00:29:09,326 --> 00:29:11,102 relationship with product, I don't know, 621 00:29:11,102 --> 00:29:14,298 whatever the case may be. And then if I 622 00:29:14,298 --> 00:29:16,606 delegate those technical stuff to someone 623 00:29:16,606 --> 00:29:19,282 in my team, that's another way to help 624 00:29:19,282 --> 00:29:21,874 them grow. So it's not just that I free up 625 00:29:21,874 --> 00:29:24,862 my time to think that I can make a greater 626 00:29:24,862 --> 00:29:28,166 impact, but also I free up my time to help 627 00:29:28,166 --> 00:29:33,298 someone else progress in their careers. 628 00:29:33,298 --> 00:29:35,974 It's a great perspective. Yeah. When we 629 00:29:35,974 --> 00:29:39,046 can let things go a little bit, it is a 630 00:29:39,046 --> 00:29:41,750 way to develop leaders, and that's hard. I 631 00:29:41,750 --> 00:29:44,202 think you and I are both parents, and it's 632 00:29:44,202 --> 00:29:45,562 something that parents have to walk 633 00:29:45,562 --> 00:29:48,886 through. So I always feel sad when I see 634 00:29:48,886 --> 00:29:51,174 organizations that are so biased against 635 00:29:51,174 --> 00:29:53,206 moms or a lot of this narrative that says 636 00:29:53,206 --> 00:29:55,838 moms are lazy or not capable at work. And 637 00:29:55,838 --> 00:29:57,466 I just think, why wouldn't you want to 638 00:29:57,466 --> 00:29:59,662 hire moms? Most moms I know are great 639 00:29:59,662 --> 00:30:01,166 project managers at home. They're having 640 00:30:01,166 --> 00:30:04,154 to learn to delegate, to raise little 641 00:30:04,154 --> 00:30:07,114 humans into adults and help them leave the 642 00:30:07,114 --> 00:30:09,730 nest one day. I mean, this is a years long 643 00:30:09,730 --> 00:30:11,186 process that moms are having to make sure 644 00:30:11,186 --> 00:30:12,958 the catering is done at home, whether 645 00:30:12,958 --> 00:30:15,394 they're cooking it or outsourcing it, 646 00:30:15,394 --> 00:30:17,218 making sure supplies are always stocked in 647 00:30:17,218 --> 00:30:19,842 the warehouse, aka the cabinets and the 648 00:30:19,842 --> 00:30:21,766 pantry. Right. We have a lot of skills 649 00:30:21,766 --> 00:30:25,218 that we bring, but it does require 650 00:30:25,218 --> 00:30:27,366 delegation as a parent. And so we see that 651 00:30:27,366 --> 00:30:30,018 in managers too. It can be hard to. You 652 00:30:30,018 --> 00:30:32,070 don't think as a parent your kid is quite 653 00:30:32,070 --> 00:30:33,866 ready sometimes, but you test it out a 654 00:30:33,866 --> 00:30:35,974 little bit. Right? And the same with 655 00:30:35,974 --> 00:30:37,322 managers. Maybe you're not sure if 656 00:30:37,322 --> 00:30:39,286 somebody that directly reports to you 657 00:30:39,286 --> 00:30:41,446 feels 100% ready for that task, but you 658 00:30:41,446 --> 00:30:43,934 walk alongside, you do this model assist, 659 00:30:43,934 --> 00:30:45,918 watch and leave kind of process that a lot 660 00:30:45,918 --> 00:30:49,454 of us use. Right? Yeah. And sometimes 661 00:30:49,454 --> 00:30:52,000 people just have to restructure things 662 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,366 too. I'm thinking right now, you're 663 00:30:56,366 --> 00:30:58,562 talking about being an engineer, and the 664 00:30:58,562 --> 00:31:00,462 company I work in, we have a lot of 665 00:31:00,462 --> 00:31:03,118 engineers as well. And my oldest son is 666 00:31:03,118 --> 00:31:05,620 studying to be an engineer and so familiar 667 00:31:05,620 --> 00:31:08,806 with that sort of way of thinking and that 668 00:31:08,806 --> 00:31:11,938 way of working. I think in a lot of 669 00:31:11,938 --> 00:31:15,414 engineering situations, not exclusively by 670 00:31:15,414 --> 00:31:17,366 any means, but you tend to get a lot more 671 00:31:17,366 --> 00:31:20,086 sort of introverts in a role like that. 672 00:31:20,086 --> 00:31:21,674 And so if you have somebody who's a little 673 00:31:21,674 --> 00:31:24,986 more introverted, and then they're needing 674 00:31:24,986 --> 00:31:27,482 to grow into a manager role or even learn 675 00:31:27,482 --> 00:31:29,914 to network, do you have any tips for 676 00:31:29,914 --> 00:31:31,838 people that are on the introverted side 677 00:31:31,838 --> 00:31:33,678 that are having to sort of build these 678 00:31:33,678 --> 00:31:36,366 relationship skills? I know, it's so 679 00:31:36,366 --> 00:31:42,174 difficult. I'm an introvert myself. I 680 00:31:42,174 --> 00:31:46,142 think that the best way would be to see 681 00:31:46,142 --> 00:31:48,466 what areas you're passionate about and how 682 00:31:48,466 --> 00:31:50,530 can you help others. That's a great first 683 00:31:50,530 --> 00:31:53,570 step, right? To build kind of to network, 684 00:31:53,570 --> 00:31:56,378 help other people speak on an area that 685 00:31:56,378 --> 00:31:58,514 you're passionate about. Even the most 686 00:31:58,514 --> 00:32:03,106 introverted persons, and I've managed very 687 00:32:03,106 --> 00:32:06,390 introverted engineers, when you find 688 00:32:06,390 --> 00:32:08,150 something that they are very passionate 689 00:32:08,150 --> 00:32:10,154 about, they can talk all day long about 690 00:32:10,154 --> 00:32:12,934 it. So find those areas where you're 691 00:32:12,934 --> 00:32:15,002 passionate, where you're interested, and 692 00:32:15,002 --> 00:32:16,790 find opportunities to share that 693 00:32:16,790 --> 00:32:19,718 knowledge, and it can be with just one 694 00:32:19,718 --> 00:32:22,634 individuals maybe in some group setup, 695 00:32:22,634 --> 00:32:25,850 maybe eventually, maybe at a conference. 696 00:32:25,850 --> 00:32:28,334 Conferences are great ways to get out of 697 00:32:28,334 --> 00:32:30,766 your comfort zone. And I'll tell you, it 698 00:32:30,766 --> 00:32:32,682 was very difficult for me to go to 699 00:32:32,682 --> 00:32:34,626 conferences and network and all that. It 700 00:32:34,626 --> 00:32:38,174 was not easy, but I kind of deliberately 701 00:32:38,174 --> 00:32:41,406 decided to go there, despite my nature, to 702 00:32:41,406 --> 00:32:46,302 avoid those situations. So follow just the 703 00:32:46,302 --> 00:32:49,446 things that you feel like you are more 704 00:32:49,446 --> 00:32:53,042 easy to talk about. And also finding 705 00:32:53,042 --> 00:32:55,398 opportunities to collaborate with people. 706 00:32:55,398 --> 00:32:58,326 Like for example, hackathons are great 707 00:32:58,326 --> 00:33:00,774 ways to kind of get to know people, open 708 00:33:00,774 --> 00:33:02,890 source projects. So find those 709 00:33:02,890 --> 00:33:06,234 opportunities to meet people on areas that 710 00:33:06,234 --> 00:33:09,126 you feel super comfortable, super 711 00:33:09,126 --> 00:33:11,286 passionate about. That will make it just 712 00:33:11,286 --> 00:33:13,850 easier than just network with someone 713 00:33:13,850 --> 00:33:15,806 because we tend to think of networking. 714 00:33:15,806 --> 00:33:18,574 Oh, I just go and talk with someone about 715 00:33:18,574 --> 00:33:20,846 their life, right? Or talk about, I don't 716 00:33:20,846 --> 00:33:22,574 know what to talk about. So talk about 717 00:33:22,574 --> 00:33:25,682 things that you feel comfortable talking 718 00:33:25,682 --> 00:33:27,998 about. Be a geek and just talk about the 719 00:33:27,998 --> 00:33:31,554 techie stuff. Love that advice. That's 720 00:33:31,554 --> 00:33:35,634 really great advice. Yeah. I think that 721 00:33:35,634 --> 00:33:37,618 for most introverts that I know, chitchat 722 00:33:37,618 --> 00:33:40,066 can be really uncomfortable, but that is 723 00:33:40,066 --> 00:33:41,638 really good advice. Just geek out on what 724 00:33:41,638 --> 00:33:43,782 you know and talk about what you know, and 725 00:33:43,782 --> 00:33:45,014 somebody out there is going to love it 726 00:33:45,014 --> 00:33:46,662 too. And that's part of networking, which 727 00:33:46,662 --> 00:33:50,058 is really great. I want to talk about this 728 00:33:50,058 --> 00:33:55,370 a little bit. One of the challenges I hear 729 00:33:55,370 --> 00:33:57,766 about every now and then in the global 730 00:33:57,766 --> 00:34:00,426 leadership and development work I do here 731 00:34:00,426 --> 00:34:03,094 is sometimes people who are managers, they 732 00:34:03,094 --> 00:34:05,840 have a direct report and they're seeing 733 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,606 some performance issues, and maybe they 734 00:34:08,606 --> 00:34:10,346 don't even know why. It's just that 735 00:34:10,346 --> 00:34:12,906 there's deadlines that are being missed or 736 00:34:12,906 --> 00:34:16,706 there's work that's not being done up to 737 00:34:16,706 --> 00:34:20,078 the expectation. Various types of 738 00:34:20,078 --> 00:34:23,778 performance issues that may be unknown as 739 00:34:23,778 --> 00:34:26,402 to what the reasons are with their team. 740 00:34:26,402 --> 00:34:28,342 What strategies do you recommend when 741 00:34:28,342 --> 00:34:30,246 somebody faces that on their team that 742 00:34:30,246 --> 00:34:32,470 they need to have a difficult conversation 743 00:34:32,470 --> 00:34:34,950 with? Yeah, and this is extremely 744 00:34:34,950 --> 00:34:37,650 difficult for all managers, especially new 745 00:34:37,650 --> 00:34:41,654 managers. Always difficult to have those 746 00:34:41,654 --> 00:34:44,374 uncomfortable conversations. My first 747 00:34:44,374 --> 00:34:47,162 advice would be sticking with facts, 748 00:34:47,162 --> 00:34:51,222 trying to be less emotional about it and 749 00:34:51,222 --> 00:34:56,330 less opinionated. So try to avoid 750 00:34:56,330 --> 00:35:00,234 sentences that start with I think, I feel. 751 00:35:00,234 --> 00:35:06,882 Replace them with I observed, I saw. So 752 00:35:06,882 --> 00:35:10,594 use data, use observation. Use things that 753 00:35:10,594 --> 00:35:14,686 are neutral. Right? I mean, it's not an 754 00:35:14,686 --> 00:35:18,422 opinion, it's not a feeling, it's data. 755 00:35:18,422 --> 00:35:20,502 Then be curious. As I said, curiosity is 756 00:35:20,502 --> 00:35:23,378 number one. You start with sharing 757 00:35:23,378 --> 00:35:27,254 observations. I observe that every time 758 00:35:27,254 --> 00:35:32,394 you estimate something, it takes you twice 759 00:35:32,394 --> 00:35:35,722 as much. I'm just making something up. 760 00:35:35,722 --> 00:35:41,338 Right. I observe that when you submit a PR 761 00:35:41,338 --> 00:35:43,646 there are always a lot of comments from 762 00:35:43,646 --> 00:35:48,138 your peers. I observe that you get, I 763 00:35:48,138 --> 00:35:50,974 don't know, whatever amount of bugs on 764 00:35:50,974 --> 00:35:53,642 code that you submit or you get more 765 00:35:53,642 --> 00:35:58,482 whatever observations. Then give the space 766 00:35:58,482 --> 00:36:02,990 to respond. But be curious about listen. 767 00:36:02,990 --> 00:36:05,566 Practice active listening, not hearing. 768 00:36:05,566 --> 00:36:08,206 Active listening. Be curious to say, okay, 769 00:36:08,206 --> 00:36:10,518 I've said what I wanted to say. Now I'm 770 00:36:10,518 --> 00:36:13,654 going to fully listen to you and I want to 771 00:36:13,654 --> 00:36:15,986 hear what you have to say. What are your 772 00:36:15,986 --> 00:36:19,322 thoughts about it? What is your take? Hear 773 00:36:19,322 --> 00:36:24,106 them out. Sometimes they may not agree 774 00:36:24,106 --> 00:36:27,174 with you, but you have to be at least open 775 00:36:27,174 --> 00:36:29,980 minded to hearing out what they have to 776 00:36:29,980 --> 00:36:34,622 say and then make sure that expectations 777 00:36:34,622 --> 00:36:39,120 are clear. A lot of times the child start 778 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,074 with having different expectations or 779 00:36:42,074 --> 00:36:43,738 understanding of what is the role of what 780 00:36:43,738 --> 00:36:48,510 is expected from them and have those 781 00:36:48,510 --> 00:36:50,942 conversations about expectations from that 782 00:36:50,942 --> 00:36:53,650 role, from that individual. Maybe there's 783 00:36:53,650 --> 00:36:57,794 something not aligned there and agree on 784 00:36:57,794 --> 00:37:01,014 what's next. Ask them, what do you think? 785 00:37:01,014 --> 00:37:03,938 What do you propose? It's their 786 00:37:03,938 --> 00:37:05,586 responsibility as well. It's not just 787 00:37:05,586 --> 00:37:09,350 yours. As a manager, if they are not 788 00:37:09,350 --> 00:37:11,986 performing, they need to come up with 789 00:37:11,986 --> 00:37:13,978 solutions. They need to propose. What do 790 00:37:13,978 --> 00:37:15,770 you need for me? I mean, you're there to 791 00:37:15,770 --> 00:37:17,866 support them. What do you need for me? 792 00:37:17,866 --> 00:37:21,394 What is missing? But also what do you 793 00:37:21,394 --> 00:37:27,278 propose doing? Very good. Yeah, I love 794 00:37:27,278 --> 00:37:31,962 that. I think that good leadership at 795 00:37:31,962 --> 00:37:33,946 foundational level is the kind where 796 00:37:33,946 --> 00:37:37,938 listening to understand is right. And I do 797 00:37:37,938 --> 00:37:40,446 a lot of training on this and have 798 00:37:40,446 --> 00:37:41,646 recently done a couple of different 799 00:37:41,646 --> 00:37:43,826 leadership summits, both in our UK office 800 00:37:43,826 --> 00:37:47,602 as well as our office near Memphis. And 801 00:37:47,602 --> 00:37:49,478 every time I'm doing these listening to 802 00:37:49,478 --> 00:37:52,162 understand workshops with people, it's so 803 00:37:52,162 --> 00:37:54,006 impactful because good listening skills, 804 00:37:54,006 --> 00:37:55,634 where you're listening for facts and 805 00:37:55,634 --> 00:37:57,926 feelings and values, is a really deeper 806 00:37:57,926 --> 00:38:00,214 kind of listening than just hearing. 807 00:38:00,214 --> 00:38:02,122 Right? Especially in our distracted world 808 00:38:02,122 --> 00:38:04,954 of fast paced but deep listening is 809 00:38:04,954 --> 00:38:06,854 something we have to work on. And as 810 00:38:06,854 --> 00:38:09,274 leaders and managers in particular, 811 00:38:09,274 --> 00:38:11,754 because of the power dynamic that exists 812 00:38:11,754 --> 00:38:13,514 there, that if we're not listening, we 813 00:38:13,514 --> 00:38:15,730 have blind spots. Blind spots are 814 00:38:15,730 --> 00:38:18,398 dangerous. We could run over people. And 815 00:38:18,398 --> 00:38:21,166 one of the things I really appreciate in 816 00:38:21,166 --> 00:38:23,214 the work that I do, I partner with the 817 00:38:23,214 --> 00:38:26,174 center for Creative Leadership and am 818 00:38:26,174 --> 00:38:28,306 using their curriculum in the company 819 00:38:28,306 --> 00:38:30,498 where I work to help us train on their 820 00:38:30,498 --> 00:38:33,358 research based methods. But one of their 821 00:38:33,358 --> 00:38:35,634 models for feedback in these situations or 822 00:38:35,634 --> 00:38:38,418 any situation is to do what they call SBI. 823 00:38:38,418 --> 00:38:40,440 It's a lot of what you just. Said, 824 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:44,946 situation. Behavior, impact. And then you 825 00:38:44,946 --> 00:38:46,742 pause and ask for the intent, like you 826 00:38:46,742 --> 00:38:48,774 said, and you stay really curious. You 827 00:38:48,774 --> 00:38:50,374 say, this is the situation. You're not 828 00:38:50,374 --> 00:38:52,790 using feelings, you're just using the 829 00:38:52,790 --> 00:38:54,314 data, what you observe, right. And then 830 00:38:54,314 --> 00:38:56,586 their behavior and then how that impacted 831 00:38:56,586 --> 00:38:58,106 you, and then you pause and you ask for 832 00:38:58,106 --> 00:39:00,586 their intent. And it's been really great 833 00:39:00,586 --> 00:39:03,686 to see how people using that, myself 834 00:39:03,686 --> 00:39:06,142 included. It's really a great way to have 835 00:39:06,142 --> 00:39:08,366 that difficult conversation, which we have 836 00:39:08,366 --> 00:39:11,742 to have a lot as managers and leaders. So 837 00:39:11,742 --> 00:39:13,146 love what you had to say and very 838 00:39:13,146 --> 00:39:14,706 consistent with what I found to be helpful 839 00:39:14,706 --> 00:39:18,594 as well. I'd love to hear if you have any 840 00:39:18,594 --> 00:39:24,050 sort of story that is impactful from your 841 00:39:24,050 --> 00:39:29,474 career that made you who you are as a 842 00:39:29,474 --> 00:39:31,574 leader. Was there any particular person 843 00:39:31,574 --> 00:39:33,926 that influenced you? Was there any 844 00:39:33,926 --> 00:39:36,374 particular situation that kind of gave you 845 00:39:36,374 --> 00:39:38,486 the values that you have to want to invest 846 00:39:38,486 --> 00:39:41,366 in others and make a difference? Any story 847 00:39:41,366 --> 00:39:43,098 that kind of formed you to make you kind 848 00:39:43,098 --> 00:39:45,466 of the leader that you are? I don't know 849 00:39:45,466 --> 00:39:47,786 if I can point to one story. I think it 850 00:39:47,786 --> 00:39:52,714 was a journey, but I remember that the 851 00:39:52,714 --> 00:39:56,142 managers that inspired me even when I 852 00:39:56,142 --> 00:39:59,118 started out, and I couldn't even see 853 00:39:59,118 --> 00:40:02,378 myself there, I was so much at the 854 00:40:02,378 --> 00:40:04,366 beginning. I saw those managers and said, 855 00:40:04,366 --> 00:40:07,666 I want to become this. So a lot of times, 856 00:40:07,666 --> 00:40:10,306 just identifying someone and say, I want 857 00:40:10,306 --> 00:40:12,962 to be like that. And what I appreciated, 858 00:40:12,962 --> 00:40:15,182 and those are my core values, I 859 00:40:15,182 --> 00:40:19,766 appreciated people who were humble, who 860 00:40:19,766 --> 00:40:23,702 were compassionate and empathetic, who 861 00:40:23,702 --> 00:40:27,510 wanted to help me grow, always listened, 862 00:40:27,510 --> 00:40:30,662 and always kind of treated people with 863 00:40:30,662 --> 00:40:35,914 respect and every person differently. I 864 00:40:35,914 --> 00:40:38,602 had a manager that we had a team, a global 865 00:40:38,602 --> 00:40:40,886 team. I was still relatively at the 866 00:40:40,886 --> 00:40:44,254 beginning of my career. And that manager, 867 00:40:44,254 --> 00:40:48,462 I was totally inspired and amazed how he 868 00:40:48,462 --> 00:40:51,934 was able to conduct a meeting with people 869 00:40:51,934 --> 00:40:55,282 from so many different countries and be 870 00:40:55,282 --> 00:40:58,190 able to motivate everyone and kind of 871 00:40:58,190 --> 00:41:00,354 gather everyone together. And I remember 872 00:41:00,354 --> 00:41:05,474 that I thought, I want to become like him. 873 00:41:05,474 --> 00:41:08,454 It took me some years to eventually get 874 00:41:08,454 --> 00:41:12,402 there, but I think that having someone who 875 00:41:12,402 --> 00:41:15,778 inspire you, that you can see yourself 876 00:41:15,778 --> 00:41:17,590 role models are really important. That's 877 00:41:17,590 --> 00:41:19,702 why. One of the reasons why I think that 878 00:41:19,702 --> 00:41:23,154 women have problems getting up to the 879 00:41:23,154 --> 00:41:25,766 exact roles they don't see women role 880 00:41:25,766 --> 00:41:28,038 models. So you really need to relate to a 881 00:41:28,038 --> 00:41:31,210 role model to see, this is what I want to 882 00:41:31,210 --> 00:41:33,194 be again, it's not a copy, it's not a 883 00:41:33,194 --> 00:41:36,720 clone, but someone to aspire to become. 884 00:41:36,720 --> 00:41:41,370 Like. So true. It's been true in my 885 00:41:41,370 --> 00:41:43,690 career, in life as well. I did work in an 886 00:41:43,690 --> 00:41:46,174 organization that had no women in the 887 00:41:46,174 --> 00:41:50,094 executive level or even the senior 888 00:41:50,094 --> 00:41:52,066 management level for a long time. And it 889 00:41:52,066 --> 00:41:54,594 does impact you because you need to see 890 00:41:54,594 --> 00:41:56,626 your person, at least one, obviously more 891 00:41:56,626 --> 00:41:58,946 than one, is helpful. But so many women 892 00:41:58,946 --> 00:42:00,446 are really the ones breaking the glass 893 00:42:00,446 --> 00:42:01,666 ceiling, blazing the trail. And we need 894 00:42:01,666 --> 00:42:03,446 male allies to come along and support us 895 00:42:03,446 --> 00:42:06,006 and be aware that we haven't had the wind 896 00:42:06,006 --> 00:42:08,294 at our back. And it does affect us and it 897 00:42:08,294 --> 00:42:10,034 does affect the bias we all have, 898 00:42:10,034 --> 00:42:11,386 ourselves included. Sometimes, like you 899 00:42:11,386 --> 00:42:13,914 said, it's women also making it harder on 900 00:42:13,914 --> 00:42:17,146 other women. It's not just men, right? All 901 00:42:17,146 --> 00:42:19,818 of us have the ability to open doors for 902 00:42:19,818 --> 00:42:22,054 people, make things easier or make it 903 00:42:22,054 --> 00:42:23,386 harder. So thank you for your insights 904 00:42:23,386 --> 00:42:25,070 today. I really appreciate your 905 00:42:25,070 --> 00:42:28,126 perspective. We are going to let you hang 906 00:42:28,126 --> 00:42:29,758 out with our Patreon supporters, and I'm 907 00:42:29,758 --> 00:42:32,446 going to ask you another question related 908 00:42:32,446 --> 00:42:34,254 to just living in Israel during a time 909 00:42:34,254 --> 00:42:35,982 when the world is watching everything 910 00:42:35,982 --> 00:42:37,434 happening there. I just want to get your 911 00:42:37,434 --> 00:42:40,754 perspective on that as somebody who's from 912 00:42:40,754 --> 00:42:42,194 there and living there and just want to 913 00:42:42,194 --> 00:42:44,318 hear your thoughts about the situation. So 914 00:42:44,318 --> 00:42:45,886 we'll let you do that with our Patreon 915 00:42:45,886 --> 00:42:47,874 supporters. But for now, thank you for 916 00:42:47,874 --> 00:42:50,014 being on the podcast today. Thank you for 917 00:42:50,014 --> 00:42:51,818 sharing your perspective and your 918 00:42:51,818 --> 00:42:53,222 insights, for making a difference in the 919 00:42:53,222 --> 00:42:55,462 ways that you are. And I do hope that your 920 00:42:55,462 --> 00:42:57,462 work produces the fruit you're looking 921 00:42:57,462 --> 00:42:59,186 for, where women are getting to the C 922 00:42:59,186 --> 00:43:00,706 suite to be those kind of leaders that 923 00:43:00,706 --> 00:43:03,402 you're dreaming of and inspiring them to. 924 00:43:03,402 --> 00:43:05,466 Thanks for being on today. Lee Moore, 925 00:43:05,466 --> 00:43:07,418 thank you so much for having me. It's been 926 00:43:07,418 --> 00:43:10,314 a true pleasure speaking with you today. 927 00:43:10,314 --> 00:43:14,438 You too. I hope you enjoyed that 928 00:43:14,438 --> 00:43:16,106 conversation as much as I did. I learned 929 00:43:16,106 --> 00:43:19,406 so much from Leymore, and she hangs around 930 00:43:19,406 --> 00:43:21,774 and talks to us in our Patreon group 931 00:43:21,774 --> 00:43:23,406 called difference Makers. So if you've not 932 00:43:23,406 --> 00:43:25,118 yet joined that community, this would be 933 00:43:25,118 --> 00:43:27,118 the day to do so because I ask her about 934 00:43:27,118 --> 00:43:30,066 what it's like to be living in Israel 935 00:43:30,066 --> 00:43:31,438 during the midst of all this conflict 936 00:43:31,438 --> 00:43:33,342 that's going on. And she gives us her 937 00:43:33,342 --> 00:43:35,346 perspective on what that's like and gives 938 00:43:35,346 --> 00:43:37,374 a very strong appeal for her own 939 00:43:37,374 --> 00:43:39,870 perspective on how we can be helpful. So I 940 00:43:39,870 --> 00:43:41,414 know many of you are trying to figure out 941 00:43:41,414 --> 00:43:42,966 ways you can be helpful in this situation. 942 00:43:42,966 --> 00:43:44,294 And just hearing her perspective was 943 00:43:44,294 --> 00:43:48,182 really great. And just also, it's always 944 00:43:48,182 --> 00:43:51,042 good to think through if that's something 945 00:43:51,042 --> 00:43:53,106 that's triggering for you in any way. So 946 00:43:53,106 --> 00:43:54,618 trigger warning if you've been in part of 947 00:43:54,618 --> 00:43:57,210 a conflict zone or currently are in one, 948 00:43:57,210 --> 00:43:58,794 because some of the things she talks about 949 00:43:58,794 --> 00:44:00,634 might be a little bit triggering. But do 950 00:44:00,634 --> 00:44:02,254 stop by on the difference maker 951 00:44:02,254 --> 00:44:04,910 Community@patreon.com. A world of 952 00:44:04,910 --> 00:44:07,966 difference to check it out. And as always, 953 00:44:07,966 --> 00:44:11,998 this podcast episode is sponsored by 954 00:44:11,998 --> 00:44:14,734 BetterHelp.com difference. And I have very 955 00:44:14,734 --> 00:44:16,494 much benefited from working with a 956 00:44:16,494 --> 00:44:17,854 therapist there and all the different 957 00:44:17,854 --> 00:44:21,854 tools of how to get ourselves through 958 00:44:21,854 --> 00:44:24,594 traumatic situations. Speaking of trauma, 959 00:44:24,594 --> 00:44:26,174 but if you've been in a traumatic 960 00:44:26,174 --> 00:44:28,306 workplace or you've had relationships that 961 00:44:28,306 --> 00:44:31,266 have been traumatic for you, or you are 962 00:44:31,266 --> 00:44:32,566 walking through anything right now that 963 00:44:32,566 --> 00:44:34,306 you just feel like you need some 964 00:44:34,306 --> 00:44:36,326 professional help, I really encourage you 965 00:44:36,326 --> 00:44:41,254 to go to WW dot betterhelp.com difference 966 00:44:41,254 --> 00:44:44,474 and get 10% off your first month. It's 967 00:44:44,474 --> 00:44:46,602 once again been so helpful for me and so I 968 00:44:46,602 --> 00:44:48,858 recommend it to you. So yeah, check them 969 00:44:48,858 --> 00:44:52,540 out and you can also find classes and 970 00:44:52,540 --> 00:44:55,238 different places to go and to be into 971 00:44:55,238 --> 00:44:57,066 groups of people if that's going to be 972 00:44:57,066 --> 00:44:59,226 helpful for you. But also just one on one 973 00:44:59,226 --> 00:45:01,434 therapy and if you decide you want to 974 00:45:01,434 --> 00:45:03,390 switch, they make it really easy. Yeah, go 975 00:45:03,390 --> 00:45:06,546 to www.betterhelp.com difference today to 976 00:45:06,546 --> 00:45:09,042 get 10% off your first month. And as 977 00:45:09,042 --> 00:45:11,762 always, wherever you are around the world, 978 00:45:11,762 --> 00:45:14,194 stay safe. Especially if you're listening 979 00:45:14,194 --> 00:45:16,914 in from the conflict going on in the 980 00:45:16,914 --> 00:45:19,320 Middle east right now. I know it's very 981 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:22,022 difficult, all of you that are doing great 982 00:45:22,022 --> 00:45:24,390 work there and risking your lives to help 983 00:45:24,390 --> 00:45:27,622 others. And it's a situation we're all 984 00:45:27,622 --> 00:45:30,438 paying attention to and just grieved and 985 00:45:30,438 --> 00:45:32,810 heartbroken and hoping that peace can come 986 00:45:32,810 --> 00:45:36,186 soon in that area for everyone's sake and 987 00:45:36,186 --> 00:45:38,540 that people can live and flourish in that 988 00:45:38,540 --> 00:45:42,442 area simultaneously, side by side with all 989 00:45:42,442 --> 00:45:44,134 different diversity of thought and 990 00:45:44,134 --> 00:45:46,830 cultures and languages and faith 991 00:45:46,830 --> 00:45:49,086 expressions. So yeah, we are sending you 992 00:45:49,086 --> 00:45:51,166 so much love. If you're there and wherever 993 00:45:51,166 --> 00:45:52,894 you are in the world, I know many of you 994 00:45:52,894 --> 00:45:54,830 are doing incredible things to make a 995 00:45:54,830 --> 00:45:56,794 difference. So let us know how this 996 00:45:56,794 --> 00:45:58,894 episode resonated with you. If you work in 997 00:45:58,894 --> 00:46:01,806 Silicon Valley, in tech, if you live in 998 00:46:01,806 --> 00:46:03,022 anywhere in the world, if you're in 999 00:46:03,022 --> 00:46:04,690 Singapore listening to this and work in 1000 00:46:04,690 --> 00:46:07,026 tech or in any kind of corporate space and 1001 00:46:07,026 --> 00:46:09,794 you want to reach out to Lee Moore for 1002 00:46:09,794 --> 00:46:13,218 more tips, you can find her on LinkedIn 1003 00:46:13,218 --> 00:46:15,106 and a few other spaces and I'm going to 1004 00:46:15,106 --> 00:46:16,466 link all her information in the show notes 1005 00:46:16,466 --> 00:46:18,446 so you can make sure and find her anyway. 1006 00:46:18,446 --> 00:46:20,460 Wherever you are in world, keep making a