Making Money While Making a Difference: An Expert's Blueprint with Bessi Graham

1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,458 Welcome to the a World of Difference 2 00:00:04,458 --> 00:00:06,766 podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown and this is 3 00:00:06,766 --> 00:00:08,606 a podcast for those who are different and 4 00:00:08,606 --> 00:00:12,426 want to make a difference. This podcast is 5 00:00:12,426 --> 00:00:15,086 sponsored by Betterhelp. 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Today on 34 00:01:25,446 --> 00:01:28,262 the show from Melbourne, Australia, we 35 00:01:28,262 --> 00:01:30,938 have Bessie Graham on the show. Bessie is 36 00:01:30,938 --> 00:01:33,290 an award winning entrepreneur with over 20 37 00:01:33,290 --> 00:01:35,542 years experience of working with business 38 00:01:35,542 --> 00:01:38,054 owners, with governments and large funding 39 00:01:38,054 --> 00:01:40,442 bodies to bring doing good and making 40 00:01:40,442 --> 00:01:43,206 money back together. From grassroots of 41 00:01:43,206 --> 00:01:44,794 sitting in the dirt, working with business 42 00:01:44,794 --> 00:01:46,862 owners in the Pacific Islands to the 43 00:01:46,862 --> 00:01:48,714 United nations headquarters in Geneva, 44 00:01:48,714 --> 00:01:51,146 Bessie has seen it all and brings an 45 00:01:51,146 --> 00:01:53,006 unparalleled perspective on what it means 46 00:01:53,006 --> 00:01:55,822 to make things happen and change. So 47 00:01:55,822 --> 00:01:57,874 working with people who have quote unquote 48 00:01:57,874 --> 00:02:00,546 made it but haven't found fulfillment, she 49 00:02:00,546 --> 00:02:02,466 really helps them put their time, talent 50 00:02:02,466 --> 00:02:04,386 and treasure to work in ways that align 51 00:02:04,386 --> 00:02:06,658 with their values and allow them to create 52 00:02:06,658 --> 00:02:08,866 a legacy they can really be proud of. 53 00:02:08,866 --> 00:02:10,726 Bessie teaches people to quiet the noise 54 00:02:10,726 --> 00:02:12,998 of the demands and opinions of others that 55 00:02:12,998 --> 00:02:15,478 are always swirling around leaders in 56 00:02:15,478 --> 00:02:17,346 business, nonprofit, government. Wherever 57 00:02:17,346 --> 00:02:19,974 you're leading, you know this is true. And 58 00:02:19,974 --> 00:02:22,134 she wants to help people hear their own 59 00:02:22,134 --> 00:02:24,106 voice more clearly so they can contribute. 60 00:02:24,106 --> 00:02:26,666 From a place of authenticity. She removes 61 00:02:26,666 --> 00:02:28,394 the frustration and pressure that comes 62 00:02:28,394 --> 00:02:31,514 from living someone else's idea of success 63 00:02:31,514 --> 00:02:33,570 and really replaces it with a sense of 64 00:02:33,570 --> 00:02:35,726 flow and fulfillment that can only come 65 00:02:35,726 --> 00:02:37,854 when you tap into the fulfillment of who 66 00:02:37,854 --> 00:02:40,314 you are and who you are becoming. I'm so 67 00:02:40,314 --> 00:02:42,454 excited to have this conversation with 68 00:02:42,454 --> 00:02:45,326 Bessie today. So welcome to the show. 69 00:02:45,326 --> 00:02:54,178 Bessie Graham. Hi, Bessie. A warm welcome 70 00:02:54,178 --> 00:02:56,274 to you today in Melbourne, Australia. 71 00:02:56,274 --> 00:02:58,598 Thanks for joining us. Thank you. I'm glad 72 00:02:58,598 --> 00:03:01,542 that we could make the time zones work. I 73 00:03:01,542 --> 00:03:04,054 am, too, and Melbourne held a special 74 00:03:04,054 --> 00:03:06,214 place in my heart because I got to visit 75 00:03:06,214 --> 00:03:08,486 there years ago, and we were just talking 76 00:03:08,486 --> 00:03:10,586 about how it's so diverse, and I love that 77 00:03:10,586 --> 00:03:13,146 it's got great coffee. I saw Taylor Swift 78 00:03:13,146 --> 00:03:14,534 has been there, so it's all over 79 00:03:14,534 --> 00:03:16,806 everybody's feed. Oh, yeah. Biggest 80 00:03:16,806 --> 00:03:21,226 concert she's ever had. I saw that. Yeah. 81 00:03:21,226 --> 00:03:23,366 I got to take my daughter for her 16th 82 00:03:23,366 --> 00:03:26,606 birthday trip to Rio to see Taylor Swift. 83 00:03:26,606 --> 00:03:28,398 We were going to do a birthday trip 84 00:03:28,398 --> 00:03:30,766 anyway, and so it was cheaper to take her 85 00:03:30,766 --> 00:03:33,454 all the way to Rio than it was to see her 86 00:03:33,454 --> 00:03:35,198 20 minutes away at Levi Stadium because 87 00:03:35,198 --> 00:03:37,522 the tickets here were insane. It was like 88 00:03:37,522 --> 00:03:39,906 $800 for the nosebleed or like $20,000 for 89 00:03:39,906 --> 00:03:42,366 the front row. Oh, my. So it was actually 90 00:03:42,366 --> 00:03:45,614 cheaper to do $200 front row tickets in 91 00:03:45,614 --> 00:03:47,938 Rio and just use airline and hotel points, 92 00:03:47,938 --> 00:03:50,946 and we had a blast. Amazing. A lot of fun. 93 00:03:50,946 --> 00:03:53,494 You've created a memory. Yeah, absolutely. 94 00:03:53,494 --> 00:03:55,046 No, we keep seeing all the swifties having 95 00:03:55,046 --> 00:03:56,598 fun there in Melbourne, so it does make me 96 00:03:56,598 --> 00:04:01,174 want to take another trip there. Well, I'm 97 00:04:01,174 --> 00:04:04,246 excited to talk to you today because 98 00:04:04,246 --> 00:04:05,882 occasionally you come across these people 99 00:04:05,882 --> 00:04:09,210 who understand what it really means to 100 00:04:09,210 --> 00:04:12,234 work in business in a way to where it can 101 00:04:12,234 --> 00:04:15,050 be something of a purpose and not just 102 00:04:15,050 --> 00:04:16,686 making profit, although there's nothing 103 00:04:16,686 --> 00:04:18,158 wrong with making profit. Everybody's got 104 00:04:18,158 --> 00:04:20,062 to pay the bills, take care of their 105 00:04:20,062 --> 00:04:21,326 family. I mean, that's just what it means 106 00:04:21,326 --> 00:04:23,438 to live this human life. But you've got a 107 00:04:23,438 --> 00:04:25,190 couple of decades of experience in sort of 108 00:04:25,190 --> 00:04:27,934 bridging this gap between profit and 109 00:04:27,934 --> 00:04:29,940 purpose. So I'd love for you to kind of 110 00:04:29,940 --> 00:04:32,754 share. Is there, like, a moment or an 111 00:04:32,754 --> 00:04:34,594 experience that sort of initially ignited 112 00:04:34,594 --> 00:04:37,554 your passions for sort of this doing good 113 00:04:37,554 --> 00:04:40,550 and making money together? It's 114 00:04:40,550 --> 00:04:42,614 interesting because when you use words 115 00:04:42,614 --> 00:04:45,986 like purpose or meaning, any of those 116 00:04:45,986 --> 00:04:50,266 types of aspects, I would say that for me, 117 00:04:50,266 --> 00:04:54,394 it goes right back to being a kid in that 118 00:04:54,394 --> 00:04:58,006 there was always this sense in me of not 119 00:04:58,006 --> 00:05:00,950 fitting into neat little boxes or what the 120 00:05:00,950 --> 00:05:03,440 expectations were. I was not one neat 121 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,478 thing. I used to always say, even when I 122 00:05:06,478 --> 00:05:08,362 was a kid, that I was a walking 123 00:05:08,362 --> 00:05:10,686 contradiction. I would have really 124 00:05:10,686 --> 00:05:13,162 different parts of myself that felt 125 00:05:13,162 --> 00:05:14,642 equally true and that other people might 126 00:05:14,642 --> 00:05:20,450 find confusing. And so in finding this 127 00:05:20,450 --> 00:05:22,994 world of being able to, through my career, 128 00:05:22,994 --> 00:05:25,498 do what I talk about as merging money and 129 00:05:25,498 --> 00:05:27,814 meaning, or helping people do good and 130 00:05:27,814 --> 00:05:32,934 make money, that allowed me to feel like I 131 00:05:32,934 --> 00:05:35,350 could bring that fullness of those 132 00:05:35,350 --> 00:05:39,260 different parts of myself. And so it's 133 00:05:39,260 --> 00:05:42,534 been ever present in my adult life and 134 00:05:42,534 --> 00:05:45,782 career. But I would say that it's the 135 00:05:45,782 --> 00:05:49,900 outworking of me just being me, which is a 136 00:05:49,900 --> 00:05:52,862 beautiful opportunity. And to have found 137 00:05:52,862 --> 00:05:56,174 that piece, which really does, I think, 138 00:05:56,174 --> 00:06:00,158 allow you to sustain something, because 139 00:06:00,158 --> 00:06:02,526 when you're trying to do something that's 140 00:06:02,526 --> 00:06:04,634 at ods or where there's some internal 141 00:06:04,634 --> 00:06:06,306 dissonance for you, you might be able to 142 00:06:06,306 --> 00:06:08,322 do it for a while through sheer force of 143 00:06:08,322 --> 00:06:11,726 will, but you end up getting exhausted and 144 00:06:11,726 --> 00:06:14,846 worn down. Yeah, I think when somebody 145 00:06:14,846 --> 00:06:18,402 brings their full, authentic self to their 146 00:06:18,402 --> 00:06:20,706 career, it's a whole different way of 147 00:06:20,706 --> 00:06:23,826 leading and living. And so one of the 148 00:06:23,826 --> 00:06:25,666 themes of our podcast is bringing our 149 00:06:25,666 --> 00:06:27,382 differences around the table, making sure 150 00:06:27,382 --> 00:06:31,230 we know each of us has unique differences. 151 00:06:31,230 --> 00:06:33,946 That's what it means to be human. And so I 152 00:06:33,946 --> 00:06:36,682 know that your career has taken know 153 00:06:36,682 --> 00:06:38,346 outside of Australia, you've done some 154 00:06:38,346 --> 00:06:39,786 pretty incredible things in your career. 155 00:06:39,786 --> 00:06:43,654 And so I'd love to know how that sort of 156 00:06:43,654 --> 00:06:45,406 informed you as a leader and the work that 157 00:06:45,406 --> 00:06:47,546 you do. What kind of an impact did living 158 00:06:47,546 --> 00:06:49,886 abroad have on your career and yourself? 159 00:06:49,886 --> 00:06:52,754 Yeah, so I would say that a little bit 160 00:06:52,754 --> 00:06:55,454 like you, having experienced different 161 00:06:55,454 --> 00:06:59,022 cultures, helps to have that bigger, more 162 00:06:59,022 --> 00:07:03,250 expansive idea of what the world is and 163 00:07:03,250 --> 00:07:08,678 different perspectives, and to not be sort 164 00:07:08,678 --> 00:07:12,374 of sheltered or exist in such a way that 165 00:07:12,374 --> 00:07:14,086 your assumptions are that everyone thinks 166 00:07:14,086 --> 00:07:17,566 the same way, everyone experiences 167 00:07:17,566 --> 00:07:20,554 situations in the same way. And that began 168 00:07:20,554 --> 00:07:24,742 for me, more from a childhood perspective, 169 00:07:24,742 --> 00:07:26,662 related to the issues around social 170 00:07:26,662 --> 00:07:30,038 justice. So my mum in particular always 171 00:07:30,038 --> 00:07:32,006 opened our eyes to the fact that you 172 00:07:32,006 --> 00:07:33,938 shouldn't compare yourself to the people 173 00:07:33,938 --> 00:07:35,838 directly around you, but to the people in 174 00:07:35,838 --> 00:07:37,742 the rest of the world. So even though 175 00:07:37,742 --> 00:07:40,654 within our circles we would have been the 176 00:07:40,654 --> 00:07:42,906 people with the least money, she would 177 00:07:42,906 --> 00:07:44,610 constantly say to us, if you have running 178 00:07:44,610 --> 00:07:47,886 water and electricity, you are within the 179 00:07:47,886 --> 00:07:49,714 wealthiest people in the world. So have 180 00:07:49,714 --> 00:07:52,290 some perspective. Right? So she was always 181 00:07:52,290 --> 00:07:54,402 opening, there's nothing wrong with 182 00:07:54,402 --> 00:07:56,246 looking around and comparing. In fact, it 183 00:07:56,246 --> 00:07:58,022 can give you perspective, but you need to 184 00:07:58,022 --> 00:08:01,682 be quite intentional about who you're 185 00:08:01,682 --> 00:08:04,226 comparing yourself to so that that kind of 186 00:08:04,226 --> 00:08:07,080 occurs. So there was always that curiosity 187 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:11,610 and I suppose the expansive aspect of 188 00:08:11,610 --> 00:08:13,930 others perspectives. I then had the 189 00:08:13,930 --> 00:08:16,314 beautiful opportunity of, when I finished 190 00:08:16,314 --> 00:08:17,866 high school, I said I was going to take 191 00:08:17,866 --> 00:08:20,846 one year off to travel. I ended up not 192 00:08:20,846 --> 00:08:23,742 going to university till four years after 193 00:08:23,742 --> 00:08:26,938 and did lots of traveling, went to a whole 194 00:08:26,938 --> 00:08:30,286 bunch of different countries. And that set 195 00:08:30,286 --> 00:08:34,046 in motion, I suppose, the perspective that 196 00:08:34,046 --> 00:08:36,114 now, no matter what happens or who I work 197 00:08:36,114 --> 00:08:38,834 with or what you see on the news, I know 198 00:08:38,834 --> 00:08:42,194 people in it would now be about 62 199 00:08:42,194 --> 00:08:44,994 different countries that I have people who 200 00:08:44,994 --> 00:08:47,858 I genuinely know and care about, and that 201 00:08:47,858 --> 00:08:49,766 connects you to the world in a different 202 00:08:49,766 --> 00:08:53,538 way. And that, I think, is one of the 203 00:08:53,538 --> 00:08:56,822 pieces that certainly in your work, in my 204 00:08:56,822 --> 00:09:00,142 work, it helps us when we work with 205 00:09:00,142 --> 00:09:02,714 leaders to get them to do the zooming out 206 00:09:02,714 --> 00:09:04,154 and zooming in. They're like, take a 207 00:09:04,154 --> 00:09:05,626 different perspective, think about this 208 00:09:05,626 --> 00:09:09,002 from a different angle. So that sort of 209 00:09:09,002 --> 00:09:12,282 has been consistently something I very 210 00:09:12,282 --> 00:09:15,278 consciously make sure is part of my work, 211 00:09:15,278 --> 00:09:18,800 because like you, I have a deep respect 212 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:22,606 for diversity. Not in a token way, and not 213 00:09:22,606 --> 00:09:25,246 trying to tick a box and kind of say, oh, 214 00:09:25,246 --> 00:09:27,234 who's not in this conversation? And we 215 00:09:27,234 --> 00:09:30,286 need to fill certain categories, but 216 00:09:30,286 --> 00:09:33,282 simply from the perspective of it is the 217 00:09:33,282 --> 00:09:35,574 way that we will. If we have people with 218 00:09:35,574 --> 00:09:37,574 different experiences of life, different 219 00:09:37,574 --> 00:09:41,666 ways they look at things, it's a much 220 00:09:41,666 --> 00:09:43,058 broader conversation than just gender. 221 00:09:43,058 --> 00:09:44,754 It's a much broader conversation than 222 00:09:44,754 --> 00:09:47,978 religion. It's about our ways of looking 223 00:09:47,978 --> 00:09:51,674 at the world and who we are. I want as 224 00:09:51,674 --> 00:09:54,300 many of those voices in a conversation as 225 00:09:54,300 --> 00:09:58,730 possible. Yeah, absolutely. It does make 226 00:09:58,730 --> 00:10:01,238 us better as leaders. We make better 227 00:10:01,238 --> 00:10:03,006 decisions, especially if in business, we 228 00:10:03,006 --> 00:10:05,262 have a product that we want to make 229 00:10:05,262 --> 00:10:08,042 available to people globally. We want 230 00:10:08,042 --> 00:10:09,326 perspectives on how is that product going 231 00:10:09,326 --> 00:10:12,586 to land in Melbourne, Australia, versus 232 00:10:12,586 --> 00:10:13,998 somewhere in Africa versus somewhere in 233 00:10:13,998 --> 00:10:15,662 the United States. All of those 234 00:10:15,662 --> 00:10:18,846 perspectives matter. But also, business 235 00:10:18,846 --> 00:10:21,922 doesn't have to just be where we treat 236 00:10:21,922 --> 00:10:25,182 people like factory workers. We do have 237 00:10:25,182 --> 00:10:26,558 factories that produce products, but we 238 00:10:26,558 --> 00:10:28,034 don't have to treat the people that way 239 00:10:28,034 --> 00:10:31,254 like cogs in a wheel. And so what are some 240 00:10:31,254 --> 00:10:34,038 ways that leadership can be a little more 241 00:10:34,038 --> 00:10:36,870 human and take into account purpose, even 242 00:10:36,870 --> 00:10:40,346 inside the workplace for people? I think a 243 00:10:40,346 --> 00:10:44,326 lot of it comes back to the role that a 244 00:10:44,326 --> 00:10:47,354 leader needs to take seriously themselves, 245 00:10:47,354 --> 00:10:51,242 of being able to pause long enough to 246 00:10:51,242 --> 00:10:54,474 start to unpack or maybe bring to the 247 00:10:54,474 --> 00:10:56,014 surface some of those unconscious beliefs 248 00:10:56,014 --> 00:10:58,640 they actually have about the purpose of 249 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,246 business. Because so many people, if you 250 00:11:01,246 --> 00:11:04,154 were just in a conversation, it was on the 251 00:11:04,154 --> 00:11:07,026 weekend, and you were all at an event 252 00:11:07,026 --> 00:11:08,926 together, they might, on the surface, 253 00:11:08,926 --> 00:11:10,546 straight away say, yeah, I totally agree 254 00:11:10,546 --> 00:11:12,722 with you. Business is far more than just 255 00:11:12,722 --> 00:11:16,446 making money. So they might, at the 256 00:11:16,446 --> 00:11:18,102 surface level, be excited and say they 257 00:11:18,102 --> 00:11:20,754 agree with you. But when you dig a little 258 00:11:20,754 --> 00:11:22,946 deeper into the way people are making 259 00:11:22,946 --> 00:11:24,886 decisions, how they're spending money, 260 00:11:24,886 --> 00:11:28,630 what they're prioritizing, there is this 261 00:11:28,630 --> 00:11:31,562 deep unconscious belief that has taken 262 00:11:31,562 --> 00:11:33,574 hold, particularly since the 70s when 263 00:11:33,574 --> 00:11:35,206 Friedman brought in this idea of 264 00:11:35,206 --> 00:11:38,474 shareholder primacy. So the maximization 265 00:11:38,474 --> 00:11:42,094 of profit started to be spoken about as if 266 00:11:42,094 --> 00:11:46,222 it was the law. It was always true and 267 00:11:46,222 --> 00:11:48,314 always would be, and yet it actually 268 00:11:48,314 --> 00:11:49,866 wasn't. It's not the roots of business. 269 00:11:49,866 --> 00:11:53,134 It's not commerce, trade, bartering. These 270 00:11:53,134 --> 00:11:55,250 are deeply human things that we have 271 00:11:55,250 --> 00:11:59,362 always done. But what I find is the first 272 00:11:59,362 --> 00:12:01,922 step for us as leaders is to actually 273 00:12:01,922 --> 00:12:05,490 start to uncover where is there a 274 00:12:05,490 --> 00:12:08,826 disconnect that actually my behavior, my 275 00:12:08,826 --> 00:12:11,634 priorities, my decision making is 276 00:12:11,634 --> 00:12:13,494 demonstrating that I do actually at least 277 00:12:13,494 --> 00:12:15,606 have a part of me that thinks business is 278 00:12:15,606 --> 00:12:17,890 about how do I make as much money as 279 00:12:17,890 --> 00:12:20,342 possible and treat a whole bunch of 280 00:12:20,342 --> 00:12:22,874 uncomfortable things or expensive things 281 00:12:22,874 --> 00:12:25,066 as an externality and not the problem of 282 00:12:25,066 --> 00:12:28,746 the business. And once we start there with 283 00:12:28,746 --> 00:12:31,198 that mindset piece and the beliefs about 284 00:12:31,198 --> 00:12:33,946 the purpose of business, then a whole 285 00:12:33,946 --> 00:12:36,254 bunch of other conversations can happen. 286 00:12:36,254 --> 00:12:40,382 But unless we start with that piece, we're 287 00:12:40,382 --> 00:12:43,700 never really having the same conversation 288 00:12:43,700 --> 00:12:45,874 because you can do a whole lot of work 289 00:12:45,874 --> 00:12:50,242 with a leader in their business, and then 290 00:12:50,242 --> 00:12:53,698 a particularly important decision or a 291 00:12:53,698 --> 00:12:56,446 difficult situation will emerge and 292 00:12:56,446 --> 00:12:58,162 suddenly I'll hear people saying things 293 00:12:58,162 --> 00:13:00,326 like, well, that's lovely, Bessie, but I 294 00:13:00,326 --> 00:13:02,678 am running a business here, not a charity. 295 00:13:02,678 --> 00:13:04,818 So we're going to have to put that on 296 00:13:04,818 --> 00:13:07,126 pause and get back to it. When things go 297 00:13:07,126 --> 00:13:10,362 back to normal or when things calm down, 298 00:13:10,362 --> 00:13:12,506 those types of comments demonstrate to me 299 00:13:12,506 --> 00:13:15,146 that you're still seeing the contribution 300 00:13:15,146 --> 00:13:19,338 or the meaning side as being a nice to 301 00:13:19,338 --> 00:13:21,914 have when times are good and when you have 302 00:13:21,914 --> 00:13:25,162 excess cash or time in the business and it 303 00:13:25,162 --> 00:13:28,174 hasn't actually been integrated into how 304 00:13:28,174 --> 00:13:29,902 you think about the decisions you're 305 00:13:29,902 --> 00:13:36,126 making in those core business. Good. You 306 00:13:36,126 --> 00:13:38,974 know, one of the things I train on in 307 00:13:38,974 --> 00:13:40,962 leadership summits that I conduct in the 308 00:13:40,962 --> 00:13:42,606 company that I work for here in Silicon 309 00:13:42,606 --> 00:13:44,046 Valley, and I go all around the world, the 310 00:13:44,046 --> 00:13:46,494 UK, I'm about to head to Taiwan and 311 00:13:46,494 --> 00:13:48,022 wherever people are in the world, it's the 312 00:13:48,022 --> 00:13:50,614 same. When we're listening to people, 313 00:13:50,614 --> 00:13:52,498 whether it's our direct reports, our 314 00:13:52,498 --> 00:13:56,454 peers, our boss, our family members, we're 315 00:13:56,454 --> 00:13:58,098 usually listening for three things, and 316 00:13:58,098 --> 00:14:00,306 that's facts, feelings and values. And 317 00:14:00,306 --> 00:14:01,994 you're talking a lot about values and how 318 00:14:01,994 --> 00:14:04,166 those impact business leaders and 319 00:14:04,166 --> 00:14:05,578 decisions that people make. It's something 320 00:14:05,578 --> 00:14:07,894 we don't think about. We don't even 321 00:14:07,894 --> 00:14:09,434 consciously often think about our values, 322 00:14:09,434 --> 00:14:12,006 and we often don't say them out loud. But 323 00:14:12,006 --> 00:14:14,238 listening for what motivates people in 324 00:14:14,238 --> 00:14:17,550 business or in social enterprise is really 325 00:14:17,550 --> 00:14:19,166 important, because just like you said, 326 00:14:19,166 --> 00:14:21,082 when it comes down to making hard 327 00:14:21,082 --> 00:14:22,862 decisions, people will make those based on 328 00:14:22,862 --> 00:14:25,806 their values. So for you and for others 329 00:14:25,806 --> 00:14:28,734 that you work with, how do your values 330 00:14:28,734 --> 00:14:30,126 influence the way you live and make 331 00:14:30,126 --> 00:14:32,578 decisions as a leader in business? And how 332 00:14:32,578 --> 00:14:34,420 do you encourage people to do that as 333 00:14:34,420 --> 00:14:37,822 well? So, for me, they massively 334 00:14:37,822 --> 00:14:40,226 influence. And when I work with people, 335 00:14:40,226 --> 00:14:42,214 I'm always trying to get them to a place 336 00:14:42,214 --> 00:14:44,166 where they are a massive influence in 337 00:14:44,166 --> 00:14:46,582 their life. Because again, it's these 338 00:14:46,582 --> 00:14:48,122 making something conscious, making 339 00:14:48,122 --> 00:14:50,662 something explicit that is already driving 340 00:14:50,662 --> 00:14:52,874 behavior. Often you just aren't aware of 341 00:14:52,874 --> 00:14:57,990 where that's coming from. So, values is a 342 00:14:57,990 --> 00:14:59,910 conversation, particularly in business 343 00:14:59,910 --> 00:15:02,822 settings, that is often done in such a 344 00:15:02,822 --> 00:15:04,734 superficial way that leaders will roll 345 00:15:04,734 --> 00:15:06,286 their eyes. When you say you want to have 346 00:15:06,286 --> 00:15:08,686 a conversation about values, they think, 347 00:15:08,686 --> 00:15:10,542 oh my goodness, this is going to be 348 00:15:10,542 --> 00:15:12,454 another one of those completely 349 00:15:12,454 --> 00:15:13,906 meaningless things where there's a poster 350 00:15:13,906 --> 00:15:16,850 on the wall. My favorite ones are always 351 00:15:16,850 --> 00:15:20,722 the integrity, honesty and the eagle on 352 00:15:20,722 --> 00:15:26,334 those types of ideas. And so we need to do 353 00:15:26,334 --> 00:15:29,094 some unlearning there of, okay, people 354 00:15:29,094 --> 00:15:31,314 have been talking about something like 355 00:15:31,314 --> 00:15:33,526 values in a way that didn't actually have 356 00:15:33,526 --> 00:15:37,334 the depth to it. When you and I are 357 00:15:37,334 --> 00:15:39,050 talking about it in relation to this 358 00:15:39,050 --> 00:15:42,234 question and how it's actually informing 359 00:15:42,234 --> 00:15:44,586 your decisions, how it is influencing the 360 00:15:44,586 --> 00:15:49,418 way you live, that is, values done in a 361 00:15:49,418 --> 00:15:53,214 far more meaningful or nuanced way. And so 362 00:15:53,214 --> 00:15:55,146 I always think about values from the 363 00:15:55,146 --> 00:15:57,934 perspective of Simon Sinek talked about 364 00:15:57,934 --> 00:16:01,002 that our values are who we are at our 365 00:16:01,002 --> 00:16:04,498 natural best. And I think that that is 366 00:16:04,498 --> 00:16:06,740 true. But I think that's only the starting 367 00:16:06,740 --> 00:16:09,554 place in particularly the last two and a 368 00:16:09,554 --> 00:16:13,966 bit decades. The way that I have made 369 00:16:13,966 --> 00:16:17,400 values really central in my life and in my 370 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,902 work is to realize that actually by 371 00:16:20,902 --> 00:16:23,894 getting clear on what our core values are 372 00:16:23,894 --> 00:16:27,366 and then very intentionally cultivating 373 00:16:27,366 --> 00:16:29,642 what are the conditions that allow me to 374 00:16:29,642 --> 00:16:32,874 live those things out. How do I need to 375 00:16:32,874 --> 00:16:35,610 set up my environment or my relationships, 376 00:16:35,610 --> 00:16:39,514 or the time I create to be able to live in 377 00:16:39,514 --> 00:16:43,006 that space? That then means I can show up 378 00:16:43,006 --> 00:16:46,666 at my natural best, because all of those 379 00:16:46,666 --> 00:16:48,698 aspects around the environments we're 380 00:16:48,698 --> 00:16:50,526 creating, those conditions we cultivate 381 00:16:50,526 --> 00:16:53,966 for ourself, set us up to either be able 382 00:16:53,966 --> 00:16:55,922 to live in alignment with those values or 383 00:16:55,922 --> 00:16:58,002 not. So I think there's a really rich, 384 00:16:58,002 --> 00:16:59,938 much longer conversation than we can have 385 00:16:59,938 --> 00:17:03,234 today about how we identify those things 386 00:17:03,234 --> 00:17:06,994 and really name them, but they have to be 387 00:17:06,994 --> 00:17:11,366 aspects that do speak to how we behave. So 388 00:17:11,366 --> 00:17:13,158 there needs to be action related to them. 389 00:17:13,158 --> 00:17:16,390 They need to inform our decisions. And I 390 00:17:16,390 --> 00:17:19,622 think when we get really clear on those 391 00:17:19,622 --> 00:17:22,662 and always have them top of mind, they 392 00:17:22,662 --> 00:17:24,454 become one of the filters we use in our 393 00:17:24,454 --> 00:17:27,066 decision making to be able to go, is this 394 00:17:27,066 --> 00:17:29,338 in alignment or is it not? Because most of 395 00:17:29,338 --> 00:17:31,206 the time when I see leaders getting 396 00:17:31,206 --> 00:17:33,002 exhausted and overwhelmed, particularly 397 00:17:33,002 --> 00:17:35,374 now, and you would see this in your work 398 00:17:35,374 --> 00:17:37,854 with the fast paced changes that we're all 399 00:17:37,854 --> 00:17:40,574 having to deal with, if you don't have 400 00:17:40,574 --> 00:17:42,766 some kind of touchstone or guide to come 401 00:17:42,766 --> 00:17:47,474 back to that actually says, yes, this sits 402 00:17:47,474 --> 00:17:49,186 well with me. This is in alignment with 403 00:17:49,186 --> 00:17:52,194 who we are as an organization. You can 404 00:17:52,194 --> 00:17:54,722 talk about integrity and alignment all you 405 00:17:54,722 --> 00:17:56,786 want, but if you haven't actually 406 00:17:56,786 --> 00:18:01,030 articulated. Align to what? Moving towards 407 00:18:01,030 --> 00:18:03,846 what? That clarity is the starting place. 408 00:18:03,846 --> 00:18:07,442 So I think at our own peril, we ignore or 409 00:18:07,442 --> 00:18:10,646 make simplistic lists of what our 410 00:18:10,646 --> 00:18:13,354 company's core values are. It's a much 411 00:18:13,354 --> 00:18:16,938 more powerful conversation. Absolutely. 412 00:18:16,938 --> 00:18:19,786 Yeah. And some companies will do even a 413 00:18:19,786 --> 00:18:21,278 really great job, like you said, having it 414 00:18:21,278 --> 00:18:25,614 on the wall, making it visible on their 415 00:18:25,614 --> 00:18:27,822 website, having it constantly stated in 416 00:18:27,822 --> 00:18:30,106 certain meetings, but it really kind of 417 00:18:30,106 --> 00:18:34,398 falls apart if they mention one of their 418 00:18:34,398 --> 00:18:37,858 values is maybe inclusion, and then at the 419 00:18:37,858 --> 00:18:40,478 end of the day, they're doing nothing in 420 00:18:40,478 --> 00:18:44,338 recruiting to make sure job requests are 421 00:18:44,338 --> 00:18:46,082 going to appeal to somebody who's 422 00:18:46,082 --> 00:18:47,666 different than everybody they have, or 423 00:18:47,666 --> 00:18:50,440 there's favoritism still in the process, 424 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,638 or everybody hires people they know from 425 00:18:53,638 --> 00:18:55,446 the same university where you get this 426 00:18:55,446 --> 00:18:57,974 kind of group think. And so you can say 427 00:18:57,974 --> 00:18:59,722 you value that, but at the end of the day, 428 00:18:59,722 --> 00:19:02,966 if decisions aren't made based on it, it 429 00:19:02,966 --> 00:19:05,420 doesn't really change. So kind of help us 430 00:19:05,420 --> 00:19:08,726 understand maybe sort of this decision 431 00:19:08,726 --> 00:19:11,142 cascade, how it can unlock clarity and 432 00:19:11,142 --> 00:19:14,986 decisiveness, maybe even around values. So 433 00:19:14,986 --> 00:19:17,614 what's interesting, if people wanted to 434 00:19:17,614 --> 00:19:19,486 dig into what you were just speaking about 435 00:19:19,486 --> 00:19:21,594 a little bit more, the best author that 436 00:19:21,594 --> 00:19:23,886 I've always really loved reading around 437 00:19:23,886 --> 00:19:26,610 this topic is Patrick Lenchoni, and in his 438 00:19:26,610 --> 00:19:29,682 book, the advantage, he talks about four 439 00:19:29,682 --> 00:19:31,566 different types of values. And some of the 440 00:19:31,566 --> 00:19:32,994 pieces that you've spoken about there that 441 00:19:32,994 --> 00:19:37,326 can end up undermining our authority or 442 00:19:37,326 --> 00:19:39,554 people's respect or trust in us as a 443 00:19:39,554 --> 00:19:41,878 leader is when we take something that is 444 00:19:41,878 --> 00:19:44,246 what he would call an aspirational value, 445 00:19:44,246 --> 00:19:46,662 we might know that we need that as a 446 00:19:46,662 --> 00:19:49,478 company to succeed in the future, or we 447 00:19:49,478 --> 00:19:51,594 might want that to be part of our culture 448 00:19:51,594 --> 00:19:55,034 and we call it a core value, we name it as 449 00:19:55,034 --> 00:19:57,786 that. But there's this disconnect for our 450 00:19:57,786 --> 00:20:01,334 customers or our team where they're, hmm. 451 00:20:01,334 --> 00:20:03,674 Bessie's saying this, but every 452 00:20:03,674 --> 00:20:05,966 interaction I have, my experience with her 453 00:20:05,966 --> 00:20:08,414 or this company is actually the opposite. 454 00:20:08,414 --> 00:20:10,526 And now, even if I'm not conscious of it, 455 00:20:10,526 --> 00:20:13,306 I start to mistrust her because I'm 456 00:20:13,306 --> 00:20:16,238 hearing one thing and seeing another. And 457 00:20:16,238 --> 00:20:18,914 so reading some of Lent, Joni's work, and 458 00:20:18,914 --> 00:20:20,686 even if people don't want to get the book, 459 00:20:20,686 --> 00:20:22,514 there's a Harvard Business Review article. 460 00:20:22,514 --> 00:20:24,146 Maybe I'll share the links with you and 461 00:20:24,146 --> 00:20:26,386 you can pop it in the notes. But that's a 462 00:20:26,386 --> 00:20:28,206 good place for people to start to pull 463 00:20:28,206 --> 00:20:30,966 apart some of these things, because we 464 00:20:30,966 --> 00:20:32,454 need to have tools, whether it's something 465 00:20:32,454 --> 00:20:34,066 like you've mentioned, the decision 466 00:20:34,066 --> 00:20:36,406 cascade, which my partner and I created 467 00:20:36,406 --> 00:20:38,386 and have been using for decades, or 468 00:20:38,386 --> 00:20:40,410 whether it's some frameworks around 469 00:20:40,410 --> 00:20:43,802 different types of values as leaders, 470 00:20:43,802 --> 00:20:46,006 these types of tools. So in ancient 471 00:20:46,006 --> 00:20:47,782 Greece, they always talked about them as 472 00:20:47,782 --> 00:20:50,234 heuristics. So thinking tools, when we 473 00:20:50,234 --> 00:20:53,454 have these to call on, it allows us to be 474 00:20:53,454 --> 00:20:55,326 more effective in our leadership, because 475 00:20:55,326 --> 00:20:58,206 on the fly, when a situation happens, you 476 00:20:58,206 --> 00:21:00,974 have a preformed structure in your mind of 477 00:21:00,974 --> 00:21:04,254 how to walk through that. So from decision 478 00:21:04,254 --> 00:21:05,826 making and when it comes to something like 479 00:21:05,826 --> 00:21:09,794 a decision cascade sequence is important. 480 00:21:09,794 --> 00:21:12,782 And what I see myself doing and other 481 00:21:12,782 --> 00:21:15,300 leaders is we're the types of people who 482 00:21:15,300 --> 00:21:18,466 are. Our tendency is toward action. So we 483 00:21:18,466 --> 00:21:20,918 want to jump in. We see an opportunity. We 484 00:21:20,918 --> 00:21:22,486 want to jump in and build. We want to jump 485 00:21:22,486 --> 00:21:26,514 in and act. Part of what we do by using a 486 00:21:26,514 --> 00:21:28,714 decision cascade is to actually start to 487 00:21:28,714 --> 00:21:32,442 pull a situation or an opportunity apart 488 00:21:32,442 --> 00:21:35,306 and make a very conscious decision of what 489 00:21:35,306 --> 00:21:38,214 is the first step. So what's that first 490 00:21:38,214 --> 00:21:40,362 overarching decision that everything else 491 00:21:40,362 --> 00:21:43,806 needs to flow from that. And then once you 492 00:21:43,806 --> 00:21:45,966 go, okay, this is the primary decision. 493 00:21:45,966 --> 00:21:48,158 This is the secondary level of decisions 494 00:21:48,158 --> 00:21:51,582 and the tertiary decisions. What you are 495 00:21:51,582 --> 00:21:54,266 able to do from a leadership perspective 496 00:21:54,266 --> 00:21:57,794 is have a far smoother experience through 497 00:21:57,794 --> 00:22:00,034 your decision making. And also, when 498 00:22:00,034 --> 00:22:02,526 things aren't going well, you know how to 499 00:22:02,526 --> 00:22:04,498 unpack it and figure out where is the 500 00:22:04,498 --> 00:22:07,214 problem occurring. Rather than just being 501 00:22:07,214 --> 00:22:08,454 reactionary and going right, the whole 502 00:22:08,454 --> 00:22:10,722 thing doesn't work. We have to start from 503 00:22:10,722 --> 00:22:13,622 scratch. So I'll sort of give you a quick 504 00:22:13,622 --> 00:22:16,360 example through that. Part of what happens 505 00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:19,626 is if we as a business, have an 506 00:22:19,626 --> 00:22:21,706 opportunity to go into a new location, and 507 00:22:21,706 --> 00:22:24,566 we just jump straight into saying, great, 508 00:22:24,566 --> 00:22:27,820 we've got this opportunity to set up an 509 00:22:27,820 --> 00:22:30,602 office. I think you mentioned Indonesia 510 00:22:30,602 --> 00:22:32,746 before. So let's say we're going to go to 511 00:22:32,746 --> 00:22:35,374 Indonesia and we suddenly start to look 512 00:22:35,374 --> 00:22:38,366 for real estate and we've signed a lease 513 00:22:38,366 --> 00:22:42,206 for an office. We have made something that 514 00:22:42,206 --> 00:22:44,838 should have been a tertiary know, three 515 00:22:44,838 --> 00:22:47,534 levels down. We've made that the primary 516 00:22:47,534 --> 00:22:49,362 decision because we've now created all 517 00:22:49,362 --> 00:22:51,774 these constraints because we've signed a 518 00:22:51,774 --> 00:22:53,714 lease for a certain period of time in a 519 00:22:53,714 --> 00:22:56,914 very specific location without the other 520 00:22:56,914 --> 00:22:59,880 pieces being in place. And so from that 521 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:03,062 place, a whole bunch of decisions are no 522 00:23:03,062 --> 00:23:06,294 longer open to us and we have restricted 523 00:23:06,294 --> 00:23:08,834 what can come from there without having to 524 00:23:08,834 --> 00:23:11,570 undo a lot of things. The decision cascade 525 00:23:11,570 --> 00:23:14,154 is that piece that allows us to go back to 526 00:23:14,154 --> 00:23:15,946 something like our core values or back to 527 00:23:15,946 --> 00:23:17,930 our vision statement as an organization. 528 00:23:17,930 --> 00:23:20,954 And, ah, an opportunity's opened up, we 529 00:23:20,954 --> 00:23:23,066 could expand into Indonesia. What are the 530 00:23:23,066 --> 00:23:24,670 things we've been talking about as a 531 00:23:24,670 --> 00:23:27,438 company? What are our core values? If, for 532 00:23:27,438 --> 00:23:29,546 example, your team have been saying that 533 00:23:29,546 --> 00:23:31,306 you've been growing too fast and people 534 00:23:31,306 --> 00:23:32,926 aren't seeing their families enough and 535 00:23:32,926 --> 00:23:35,538 they want to travel less, you might need 536 00:23:35,538 --> 00:23:37,586 to have a conversation that says, while 537 00:23:37,586 --> 00:23:39,746 this is exciting, now is not the time for 538 00:23:39,746 --> 00:23:43,620 us to expand geographically. So this type 539 00:23:43,620 --> 00:23:48,294 of way of approaching your decisions is a 540 00:23:48,294 --> 00:23:51,954 much more helpful way, as I said, to not 541 00:23:51,954 --> 00:23:55,154 charge down a course and end up putting 542 00:23:55,154 --> 00:23:56,786 yourselves in positions you could have 543 00:23:56,786 --> 00:24:00,842 avoided simply by thinking differently. 544 00:24:00,842 --> 00:24:04,266 So, good. Yeah. There's this, like saying, 545 00:24:04,266 --> 00:24:06,166 I hear some Americans say it's getting the 546 00:24:06,166 --> 00:24:10,182 cart before the horse. Yes. It's just the 547 00:24:10,182 --> 00:24:12,474 priorities. You got to start with the main 548 00:24:12,474 --> 00:24:13,946 idea, like, what are we about here? And 549 00:24:13,946 --> 00:24:15,374 that's what you're leading people to, 550 00:24:15,374 --> 00:24:17,886 whether it's in business or nonprofit. Why 551 00:24:17,886 --> 00:24:20,302 are you making these decisions and not 552 00:24:20,302 --> 00:24:22,894 just having. Well, that could happen, but 553 00:24:22,894 --> 00:24:24,834 just because I tell my teenager, just 554 00:24:24,834 --> 00:24:27,682 because you can, doesn't mean you should, 555 00:24:27,682 --> 00:24:30,306 right, exactly. Yeah, you've worked. Even 556 00:24:30,306 --> 00:24:32,706 if you pause and you say no, it doesn't 557 00:24:32,706 --> 00:24:34,882 mean you're saying no forever. It just 558 00:24:34,882 --> 00:24:39,254 means not now. Totally no, 100%. You've 559 00:24:39,254 --> 00:24:40,818 worked, though, not just in Australia, 560 00:24:40,818 --> 00:24:42,518 you've worked in some other places, kind 561 00:24:42,518 --> 00:24:44,694 of more on a grassroots level, also kind 562 00:24:44,694 --> 00:24:48,758 of more prestigious. Know where you were 563 00:24:48,758 --> 00:24:51,066 with the United Nations a bit. And so I'd 564 00:24:51,066 --> 00:24:54,150 love to know some of the common 565 00:24:54,150 --> 00:24:55,818 misconceptions maybe that you find around 566 00:24:55,818 --> 00:24:57,686 kind of social entrepreneurship that 567 00:24:57,686 --> 00:24:59,126 you've encountered in these different 568 00:24:59,126 --> 00:25:03,030 kinds of settings. Yeah. So I've very 569 00:25:03,030 --> 00:25:05,442 intentionally always gone to both of those 570 00:25:05,442 --> 00:25:08,094 extremes. I like to work at the level of 571 00:25:08,094 --> 00:25:10,282 looking at the whole system. So big 572 00:25:10,282 --> 00:25:11,566 international funders as you mentioned, 573 00:25:11,566 --> 00:25:14,094 like the United nations or I do a lot of 574 00:25:14,094 --> 00:25:17,554 advisory work with government. That piece 575 00:25:17,554 --> 00:25:20,098 is important and I think often missed in 576 00:25:20,098 --> 00:25:22,062 the world of something like social 577 00:25:22,062 --> 00:25:25,626 entrepreneurship or nonprofits, where it 578 00:25:25,626 --> 00:25:29,702 stays grassroots and often fails to look 579 00:25:29,702 --> 00:25:32,134 up at that broader system and understand, 580 00:25:32,134 --> 00:25:33,446 okay, what are the constraints, what are 581 00:25:33,446 --> 00:25:35,314 the opportunities, what's happening, 582 00:25:35,314 --> 00:25:38,634 what's our part within the system? And so 583 00:25:38,634 --> 00:25:40,922 for me, it's an intentional decision to 584 00:25:40,922 --> 00:25:43,670 always be someone who bridges those two 585 00:25:43,670 --> 00:25:46,794 worlds. I don't want to just be systemic 586 00:25:46,794 --> 00:25:50,154 and big picture and lose touch with what's 587 00:25:50,154 --> 00:25:51,326 actually happening on the ground and what 588 00:25:51,326 --> 00:25:54,334 the reality is. So I always talk to people 589 00:25:54,334 --> 00:25:58,814 about, I'm very conscious of making sure I 590 00:25:58,814 --> 00:26:01,726 have enough interactions, one on one, with 591 00:26:01,726 --> 00:26:04,026 individual founders, or one of the pieces 592 00:26:04,026 --> 00:26:06,706 that's often in my bio that is important 593 00:26:06,706 --> 00:26:08,734 to me is that I've spent a lot of time 594 00:26:08,734 --> 00:26:11,470 sitting in the dirt across the Pacific 595 00:26:11,470 --> 00:26:13,346 islands, whether it's with coconut farmers 596 00:26:13,346 --> 00:26:15,474 or on coffee plantations or whatever that 597 00:26:15,474 --> 00:26:19,174 piece is. That means when I'm then acting 598 00:26:19,174 --> 00:26:21,506 as an impact investor, or I have my 599 00:26:21,506 --> 00:26:22,870 philanthropic hat on, or I'm doing 600 00:26:22,870 --> 00:26:25,654 government advisory work, while someone 601 00:26:25,654 --> 00:26:28,102 else might be talking academically about 602 00:26:28,102 --> 00:26:31,066 how something happens, I can say, well, 603 00:26:31,066 --> 00:26:32,758 actually, when I was in the back of a 604 00:26:32,758 --> 00:26:36,394 truck traveling from the farm to the port, 605 00:26:36,394 --> 00:26:38,246 I know that these are the challenges 606 00:26:38,246 --> 00:26:41,674 someone's seeing. So I would say, in 607 00:26:41,674 --> 00:26:43,422 answer to your question, sort of some of 608 00:26:43,422 --> 00:26:46,062 those patterns that I think are really 609 00:26:46,062 --> 00:26:50,042 important for all of us as leaders to push 610 00:26:50,042 --> 00:26:52,094 ourselves outside our comfort zones and 611 00:26:52,094 --> 00:26:56,034 really ensure we work into the way we lead 612 00:26:56,034 --> 00:26:58,094 is to not get into, you mentioned 613 00:26:58,094 --> 00:27:01,250 groupthink before, to not just sit in such 614 00:27:01,250 --> 00:27:02,926 small, closed circles where everyone 615 00:27:02,926 --> 00:27:04,862 thinks the same way or has the same 616 00:27:04,862 --> 00:27:06,966 perspective, but to actively put ourselves 617 00:27:06,966 --> 00:27:10,966 in situations where we say, interesting. 618 00:27:10,966 --> 00:27:12,680 Now that I have that little piece of 619 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:14,902 information, it might seem random at the 620 00:27:14,902 --> 00:27:17,446 moment, but it will come in handy later. 621 00:27:17,446 --> 00:27:20,134 So those types of things have always been 622 00:27:20,134 --> 00:27:22,666 useful for me and then played out, as I 623 00:27:22,666 --> 00:27:25,734 said later, when I've been in a situation 624 00:27:25,734 --> 00:27:29,050 investing in a company, in a country, and 625 00:27:29,050 --> 00:27:31,414 someone will use a certain piece of 626 00:27:31,414 --> 00:27:33,410 evidence to demonstrate social impact. And 627 00:27:33,410 --> 00:27:36,366 I'll say, well, I now know the questions 628 00:27:36,366 --> 00:27:38,494 to ask, because I'll say, so, when you 629 00:27:38,494 --> 00:27:40,702 talk to that farmer, did they actually 630 00:27:40,702 --> 00:27:42,986 speak English? So when you've got this 631 00:27:42,986 --> 00:27:45,234 feedback or you say that they've signed 632 00:27:45,234 --> 00:27:48,686 this and given who signed it and who 633 00:27:48,686 --> 00:27:50,820 explained it or translated it to them, 634 00:27:50,820 --> 00:27:53,922 because I know the questions to ask, 635 00:27:53,922 --> 00:27:56,166 because I understand both the grassroots 636 00:27:56,166 --> 00:27:59,906 and the systemic, and I think as leaders, 637 00:27:59,906 --> 00:28:04,726 we're not paid to just show up and be on 638 00:28:04,726 --> 00:28:07,926 the clock. We're paid for how we think, 639 00:28:07,926 --> 00:28:10,106 how we see the world, what opportunities 640 00:28:10,106 --> 00:28:12,762 do we spot, or where do we see risk that 641 00:28:12,762 --> 00:28:16,202 someone else doesn't see? And the best way 642 00:28:16,202 --> 00:28:20,086 to bring the most value as a leader is to 643 00:28:20,086 --> 00:28:23,194 expand what you understand and how you can 644 00:28:23,194 --> 00:28:24,366 bridge different worlds, because that's 645 00:28:24,366 --> 00:28:26,826 what innovation is. Two previously 646 00:28:26,826 --> 00:28:29,022 unconnected things now connect them. 647 00:28:29,022 --> 00:28:31,674 Something doesn't have to be completely 648 00:28:31,674 --> 00:28:33,566 unique and never thought of before, but 649 00:28:33,566 --> 00:28:35,570 you're wanting to do that, bringing things 650 00:28:35,570 --> 00:28:38,898 together that were not seen. Huh. Imagine 651 00:28:38,898 --> 00:28:42,674 what would happen if we combined those. 652 00:28:42,674 --> 00:28:47,826 So, good. Yeah. It takes me back to my 653 00:28:47,826 --> 00:28:49,718 own. I also had an experience with the UN, 654 00:28:49,718 --> 00:28:51,126 where I worked as sort of a liaison with 655 00:28:51,126 --> 00:28:53,126 them in the indonesian tsunami, because I 656 00:28:53,126 --> 00:28:54,646 was working in community development in 657 00:28:54,646 --> 00:28:57,846 that area when the tsunami hit that. So, 658 00:28:57,846 --> 00:28:59,178 you know, you have people from all over 659 00:28:59,178 --> 00:29:03,014 the world, big ngos coming in, and the 660 00:29:03,014 --> 00:29:07,194 coordination efforts were really just like 661 00:29:07,194 --> 00:29:09,066 a ginormous effort, like I've never seen, 662 00:29:09,066 --> 00:29:10,926 because it was such a large disaster and 663 00:29:10,926 --> 00:29:14,174 had so little infrastructure to begin with 664 00:29:14,174 --> 00:29:17,120 to sustain anything like that kind of 665 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,246 world group of people coming in from all 666 00:29:19,246 --> 00:29:22,766 these places. But the value of that was, I 667 00:29:22,766 --> 00:29:25,758 worked for a grassroots, indonesian based 668 00:29:25,758 --> 00:29:27,890 nonprofit, so I was fluent in the language 669 00:29:27,890 --> 00:29:29,266 and understood the culture because I'd 670 00:29:29,266 --> 00:29:30,866 worked there for a long time, which had 671 00:29:30,866 --> 00:29:34,510 its own dynamics under sharia law. For 672 00:29:34,510 --> 00:29:36,594 westerners, it was a hard environment to 673 00:29:36,594 --> 00:29:38,626 even immerse myself in, to do the work 674 00:29:38,626 --> 00:29:40,326 that I did. But I had spent quite a bit of 675 00:29:40,326 --> 00:29:42,342 time sort of honing all of that and 676 00:29:42,342 --> 00:29:44,662 building relationships. But I do remember 677 00:29:44,662 --> 00:29:47,026 sometimes you would see these ngos making 678 00:29:47,026 --> 00:29:48,826 decisions that clearly nobody was in the 679 00:29:48,826 --> 00:29:52,138 back of the truck, understanding just 680 00:29:52,138 --> 00:29:54,598 people, leaders coming in, making 681 00:29:54,598 --> 00:29:56,346 decisions that aren't informed. And then 682 00:29:56,346 --> 00:29:58,614 we would see the aftermath of it. Like 683 00:29:58,614 --> 00:30:02,966 boats that were made for a river that was 684 00:30:02,966 --> 00:30:04,894 intended to be in the ocean. Those are 685 00:30:04,894 --> 00:30:06,746 different. And so they ended up just 686 00:30:06,746 --> 00:30:08,926 turning them upside down and making shops 687 00:30:08,926 --> 00:30:10,842 out of them, because Indonesians are 688 00:30:10,842 --> 00:30:12,766 innovative like that. But there was a lot 689 00:30:12,766 --> 00:30:16,218 of republic of Kuwait boats, and so, yeah, 690 00:30:16,218 --> 00:30:17,918 you just saw decisions being made that 691 00:30:17,918 --> 00:30:20,494 it's like, oh, wow, we don't want to waste 692 00:30:20,494 --> 00:30:23,314 resources by not just spending our time 693 00:30:23,314 --> 00:30:24,898 really understanding. And that could be 694 00:30:24,898 --> 00:30:27,602 anything from in a company where you get, 695 00:30:27,602 --> 00:30:29,150 like, what I'm doing right now is one of 696 00:30:29,150 --> 00:30:32,306 the things I'm working on is we have glint 697 00:30:32,306 --> 00:30:34,198 survey data, and there's a particular part 698 00:30:34,198 --> 00:30:36,294 of the data that we weren't sure what 699 00:30:36,294 --> 00:30:37,526 people meant when they said certain 700 00:30:37,526 --> 00:30:39,574 things. So now I have focus groups going 701 00:30:39,574 --> 00:30:42,178 on here in the office in Silicon Valley. 702 00:30:42,178 --> 00:30:43,738 I'm going to be doing that in Taiwan when 703 00:30:43,738 --> 00:30:45,722 I go there. And it's just asking our 704 00:30:45,722 --> 00:30:48,086 people, what did you mean when you 705 00:30:48,086 --> 00:30:50,006 answered these ways? Like, we don't know 706 00:30:50,006 --> 00:30:52,010 specifically who said what, but just the 707 00:30:52,010 --> 00:30:54,266 data on there that aren't people, and then 708 00:30:54,266 --> 00:30:56,826 there's enough people that said it. So 709 00:30:56,826 --> 00:30:59,486 we're just asking people to share, because 710 00:30:59,486 --> 00:31:01,722 as leaders, like you said, we make 711 00:31:01,722 --> 00:31:03,662 decisions, and our decisions, if they're 712 00:31:03,662 --> 00:31:07,694 not informed by actual how things work, we 713 00:31:07,694 --> 00:31:09,746 make bad decisions. So what are some of 714 00:31:09,746 --> 00:31:11,234 the things that you've learned along the 715 00:31:11,234 --> 00:31:13,326 way in terms of just in addition to what 716 00:31:13,326 --> 00:31:15,554 you're saying or advice you give to people 717 00:31:15,554 --> 00:31:17,254 about people, how they can have a little 718 00:31:17,254 --> 00:31:20,934 more clarity when they make decisions? So 719 00:31:20,934 --> 00:31:22,578 the first thing that comes to mind, and 720 00:31:22,578 --> 00:31:25,026 we've actually woven this into our company 721 00:31:25,026 --> 00:31:27,986 core values, there was an amazing woman. 722 00:31:27,986 --> 00:31:30,806 She's passed away now, called Pamela 723 00:31:30,806 --> 00:31:32,314 hardigan. I'm not sure if you're familiar 724 00:31:32,314 --> 00:31:34,486 with her, but she had this beautiful 725 00:31:34,486 --> 00:31:36,586 phrase that she used where she would say, 726 00:31:36,586 --> 00:31:39,738 you need to apprentice with the problem. 727 00:31:39,738 --> 00:31:42,042 And that piece of the example you just 728 00:31:42,042 --> 00:31:43,662 gave, being a beautiful example, don't 729 00:31:43,662 --> 00:31:46,954 just assume you understand something. 730 00:31:46,954 --> 00:31:48,782 Don't think that good intentions are good 731 00:31:48,782 --> 00:31:51,066 enough. Well, I was trying to help. So 732 00:31:51,066 --> 00:31:53,566 surely that boat, that was for the ocean, 733 00:31:53,566 --> 00:31:55,514 you should be thankful because I'm very 734 00:31:55,514 --> 00:31:58,354 generous and was helping you. These pieces 735 00:31:58,354 --> 00:32:01,246 of stopping and saying, how do we need to 736 00:32:01,246 --> 00:32:02,466 apprentice with the problem? Where do we 737 00:32:02,466 --> 00:32:04,642 come at this from curiosity? Where do we 738 00:32:04,642 --> 00:32:06,614 ask a question and have a conversation, 739 00:32:06,614 --> 00:32:09,650 rather than assume we know best and then 740 00:32:09,650 --> 00:32:13,622 impose ourselves on people or situations 741 00:32:13,622 --> 00:32:17,122 that, as your starting point, is always a 742 00:32:17,122 --> 00:32:18,966 brilliant way to. You're never going to 743 00:32:18,966 --> 00:32:21,398 get it perfectly right. It's a bit like 744 00:32:21,398 --> 00:32:23,130 parenting. There will be things that our 745 00:32:23,130 --> 00:32:26,134 children are deeply hurt by and 746 00:32:26,134 --> 00:32:27,734 disappointed in what we've done, 747 00:32:27,734 --> 00:32:29,274 regardless of what our intentions are and 748 00:32:29,274 --> 00:32:32,554 how we do our best? Right. So in none of 749 00:32:32,554 --> 00:32:34,926 this, am I trying to make leaders feel 750 00:32:34,926 --> 00:32:36,560 like, oh, my goodness, I've got to be 751 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:38,862 perfect. But I always say, you need to 752 00:32:38,862 --> 00:32:40,942 hold these two. This goes back to your 753 00:32:40,942 --> 00:32:43,214 both and mindset. Right. So as a leader, 754 00:32:43,214 --> 00:32:45,850 being able to hold two things that seem 755 00:32:45,850 --> 00:32:47,700 contradictory and say they're equally 756 00:32:47,700 --> 00:32:50,274 true, I think that when we are trying to 757 00:32:50,274 --> 00:32:52,178 move into this world and be more conscious 758 00:32:52,178 --> 00:32:55,362 of the impact we're having in a flow on 759 00:32:55,362 --> 00:32:57,926 way in the world, in the work that we do, 760 00:32:57,926 --> 00:33:02,278 we need to hold in our minds the piece of 761 00:33:02,278 --> 00:33:04,374 how do we have a designerly disposition. 762 00:33:04,374 --> 00:33:08,082 So how do we be willing to try just pilot, 763 00:33:08,082 --> 00:33:12,122 prototype, test things, but do that in a 764 00:33:12,122 --> 00:33:15,066 way that also holds what Rattel, I'm not 765 00:33:15,066 --> 00:33:17,722 sure whether you've read any of the work 766 00:33:17,722 --> 00:33:19,494 around what's called wicked problems that 767 00:33:19,494 --> 00:33:22,494 Rattel wrote many years ago, but in there 768 00:33:22,494 --> 00:33:25,038 he talks about if you are intervening in a 769 00:33:25,038 --> 00:33:27,182 system or in a position where there are 770 00:33:27,182 --> 00:33:30,350 these deeply complex problems, then you 771 00:33:30,350 --> 00:33:33,274 have no right to be wrong. And people can 772 00:33:33,274 --> 00:33:35,426 freak out when they hear that. But I think 773 00:33:35,426 --> 00:33:38,482 when you hold designly disposition and no 774 00:33:38,482 --> 00:33:42,178 right to be wrong together, what it allows 775 00:33:42,178 --> 00:33:45,694 you to do is say, how would we test or 776 00:33:45,694 --> 00:33:48,194 prototype this without actually really 777 00:33:48,194 --> 00:33:50,902 raising expectations for a group of people 778 00:33:50,902 --> 00:33:54,246 that have then come to rely on us? And we 779 00:33:54,246 --> 00:33:56,374 actually didn't know what we were doing, 780 00:33:56,374 --> 00:33:58,614 and we didn't yet have sign off or budget 781 00:33:58,614 --> 00:34:00,806 to continue to do that. So we probably 782 00:34:00,806 --> 00:34:02,794 shouldn't have talked a big game yet. 783 00:34:02,794 --> 00:34:06,134 Right. So holding two seemingly 784 00:34:06,134 --> 00:34:07,642 contradictory things in your mind at the 785 00:34:07,642 --> 00:34:11,674 same time, and then landing at and 786 00:34:11,674 --> 00:34:15,406 continuing to work your model or your 787 00:34:15,406 --> 00:34:18,062 design until you get to a place where 788 00:34:18,062 --> 00:34:21,374 those two things can coexist, that is the 789 00:34:21,374 --> 00:34:23,790 most effective way to step into this 790 00:34:23,790 --> 00:34:27,278 space. So I think some of those ideas 791 00:34:27,278 --> 00:34:29,026 apprenticing with the problem, learning to 792 00:34:29,026 --> 00:34:30,946 have that designly disposition, be willing 793 00:34:30,946 --> 00:34:34,062 to play and try and not being scared of 794 00:34:34,062 --> 00:34:37,030 failing, but also taking seriously your 795 00:34:37,030 --> 00:34:39,522 responsibilities. Those pieces, when they 796 00:34:39,522 --> 00:34:42,434 dance together, create a really 797 00:34:42,434 --> 00:34:44,054 energizing, exciting culture for people 798 00:34:44,054 --> 00:34:46,786 because they can try new things, they can 799 00:34:46,786 --> 00:34:50,022 explore, but they also feel that sense of 800 00:34:50,022 --> 00:34:52,250 the weight, if you like, but in a positive 801 00:34:52,250 --> 00:34:54,266 way, of there is responsibility here, and 802 00:34:54,266 --> 00:34:56,166 I want to act with integrity. I want to be 803 00:34:56,166 --> 00:34:58,234 proud of what we're building. We don't 804 00:34:58,234 --> 00:35:01,386 want to fall into that trap of that black 805 00:35:01,386 --> 00:35:03,946 and white aspect of business, being that 806 00:35:03,946 --> 00:35:05,806 for us to win, someone else has to lose, 807 00:35:05,806 --> 00:35:08,106 or it's on the back of someone else being 808 00:35:08,106 --> 00:35:09,854 exploited. That's not what we're trying to 809 00:35:09,854 --> 00:35:11,886 do. And so I think some of those pieces 810 00:35:11,886 --> 00:35:14,754 are good ways to start as a leader in your 811 00:35:14,754 --> 00:35:17,858 own culture, to say, here's what we want 812 00:35:17,858 --> 00:35:21,442 to be moving towards. What are the types 813 00:35:21,442 --> 00:35:24,482 of ways we could run a project, or how we 814 00:35:24,482 --> 00:35:27,782 could explore opportunities in a different 815 00:35:27,782 --> 00:35:30,440 way that holds these two pieces in our 816 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:37,254 mind. So good. I think a lot of leaders 817 00:35:37,254 --> 00:35:42,026 we. See are. Working in such a way as to 818 00:35:42,026 --> 00:35:45,210 where they're kind of burning out. Because 819 00:35:45,210 --> 00:35:46,986 especially if you're doing, going above 820 00:35:46,986 --> 00:35:52,106 and beyond, like in business, for example, 821 00:35:52,106 --> 00:35:55,146 there's deadlines to make, there's direct 822 00:35:55,146 --> 00:35:57,130 reports to make sure you're caring for and 823 00:35:57,130 --> 00:35:58,762 motivating, and especially middle 824 00:35:58,762 --> 00:36:01,454 management, kind of sort of a huge part of 825 00:36:01,454 --> 00:36:04,286 the job of these middle management to make 826 00:36:04,286 --> 00:36:06,266 sure they're continuing to motivate 827 00:36:06,266 --> 00:36:08,722 workforce. And then they're having to 828 00:36:08,722 --> 00:36:10,866 maybe pass down decisions that they may or 829 00:36:10,866 --> 00:36:13,074 may not have agreed with and say it in a 830 00:36:13,074 --> 00:36:14,978 way that their direct reports can receive 831 00:36:14,978 --> 00:36:16,418 when they may feel that they're burning 832 00:36:16,418 --> 00:36:18,182 their own direct reports out. Because 833 00:36:18,182 --> 00:36:20,674 business can be hard at times. And then 834 00:36:20,674 --> 00:36:22,774 leaders have this sort of mental load that 835 00:36:22,774 --> 00:36:27,046 they carry. So have you seen leaders where 836 00:36:27,046 --> 00:36:28,906 they want to do the right thing? They want 837 00:36:28,906 --> 00:36:31,766 to be leaders who don't just care about 838 00:36:31,766 --> 00:36:34,474 profit, but to add on purpose just feels 839 00:36:34,474 --> 00:36:38,714 too much. It feels like an overload. Have 840 00:36:38,714 --> 00:36:40,314 you encountered people like that? And if 841 00:36:40,314 --> 00:36:41,838 so, what have you told them? Or how have 842 00:36:41,838 --> 00:36:46,778 you helped them? I think for most business 843 00:36:46,778 --> 00:36:48,894 leaders, it still falls into that category 844 00:36:48,894 --> 00:36:52,954 where it feels like part of them would 845 00:36:52,954 --> 00:36:54,962 love for that to be something that was 846 00:36:54,962 --> 00:36:57,554 their experience at work. But it seems 847 00:36:57,554 --> 00:37:01,054 like that's another thing to do. And it 848 00:37:01,054 --> 00:37:05,334 typically is framed in a way where it's 849 00:37:05,334 --> 00:37:08,930 seen as a distraction to the primary 850 00:37:08,930 --> 00:37:11,762 strategy or something that will be an 851 00:37:11,762 --> 00:37:14,454 expense or time consuming. And that's 852 00:37:14,454 --> 00:37:17,270 really disappointing, because that is, in 853 00:37:17,270 --> 00:37:22,634 many respects, on the back of people like 854 00:37:22,634 --> 00:37:25,420 me, who for decades have been in this 855 00:37:25,420 --> 00:37:28,854 world. If what you've always seen as the 856 00:37:28,854 --> 00:37:31,200 examples of how to contribute or do 857 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,802 something have been things that were 858 00:37:33,802 --> 00:37:36,698 incredibly expensive, really time 859 00:37:36,698 --> 00:37:39,306 consuming, and weren't connected to the 860 00:37:39,306 --> 00:37:42,218 core business, then that's all you've been 861 00:37:42,218 --> 00:37:43,146 demonstrated. And so you think, well, 862 00:37:43,146 --> 00:37:45,626 that's nice. And maybe if I had 10,000 863 00:37:45,626 --> 00:37:47,250 employees, I could do that, or maybe if I 864 00:37:47,250 --> 00:37:49,620 had massive cash flow, that would be an 865 00:37:49,620 --> 00:37:52,290 option, but how on earth am I going to do 866 00:37:52,290 --> 00:37:55,118 that? And so I think part of the work, 867 00:37:55,118 --> 00:37:58,146 particularly in the last two years, where 868 00:37:58,146 --> 00:38:01,362 I've been pulling together what the actual 869 00:38:01,362 --> 00:38:03,446 methodology is and saying, how do we get 870 00:38:03,446 --> 00:38:06,002 back to a place where you can be 871 00:38:06,002 --> 00:38:08,502 unapologetic about pursuing the 872 00:38:08,502 --> 00:38:10,406 competitive advantages that come from 873 00:38:10,406 --> 00:38:13,050 merging these aspects of money and 874 00:38:13,050 --> 00:38:15,958 meaning? You don't need to feel 875 00:38:15,958 --> 00:38:19,610 uncomfortable about something being 876 00:38:19,610 --> 00:38:24,494 commercially advantageous, as long as it 877 00:38:24,494 --> 00:38:27,918 is connected to growth and scaling of a 878 00:38:27,918 --> 00:38:30,094 business on the back of adding more value. 879 00:38:30,094 --> 00:38:32,746 So if we come back to this piece of when 880 00:38:32,746 --> 00:38:35,166 you're in that place of exhaustion, and it 881 00:38:35,166 --> 00:38:37,394 feels like you just couldn't add another 882 00:38:37,394 --> 00:38:40,754 thing in, it's stopping and saying, yeah, 883 00:38:40,754 --> 00:38:42,962 and you shouldn't add another thing in, 884 00:38:42,962 --> 00:38:45,310 but maybe you could run your business 885 00:38:45,310 --> 00:38:46,614 differently. And even if you're at that 886 00:38:46,614 --> 00:38:48,726 level of middle management, because that, 887 00:38:48,726 --> 00:38:51,350 as you said, can be a very difficult 888 00:38:51,350 --> 00:38:55,494 position to be in. It's figuring out where 889 00:38:55,494 --> 00:38:57,718 do you have influence and control? What 890 00:38:57,718 --> 00:39:02,090 are the decisions you can actually be 891 00:39:02,090 --> 00:39:05,674 shaping. And if there's a report, there's 892 00:39:05,674 --> 00:39:07,546 a directive coming down that you're going 893 00:39:07,546 --> 00:39:09,510 to need to share with your team and you 894 00:39:09,510 --> 00:39:11,614 fundamentally don't agree with it, but it 895 00:39:11,614 --> 00:39:16,058 has to be played out. You can shape how 896 00:39:16,058 --> 00:39:18,046 that's shared with your team or exactly 897 00:39:18,046 --> 00:39:20,142 how it's executed within your team, and 898 00:39:20,142 --> 00:39:22,714 whether there's conversations about 899 00:39:22,714 --> 00:39:25,546 figuring out, right, let's not turn into 900 00:39:25,546 --> 00:39:27,346 being every person for themselves, but how 901 00:39:27,346 --> 00:39:30,434 do we, as our own little team, talk this 902 00:39:30,434 --> 00:39:33,294 through and divide up the tasks so that it 903 00:39:33,294 --> 00:39:35,206 doesn't actually have a detrimental effect 904 00:39:35,206 --> 00:39:38,662 on us? Or how do you, as the leader of 905 00:39:38,662 --> 00:39:41,590 your individual team, even within a bigger 906 00:39:41,590 --> 00:39:44,582 organization, cultivate that space where 907 00:39:44,582 --> 00:39:46,754 people do feel, for example, 908 00:39:46,754 --> 00:39:48,610 psychologically safe, where they are able 909 00:39:48,610 --> 00:39:50,700 to come and talk to you when it's 910 00:39:50,700 --> 00:39:53,146 difficult? Now, there will be constraints 911 00:39:53,146 --> 00:39:55,674 to that depending on what your position 912 00:39:55,674 --> 00:39:58,522 is, and I absolutely acknowledge that. I 913 00:39:58,522 --> 00:40:01,690 think regardless of where your leadership 914 00:40:01,690 --> 00:40:03,434 position is in the organization, though, 915 00:40:03,434 --> 00:40:05,086 it's starting with those pieces of where 916 00:40:05,086 --> 00:40:06,974 do I have decision making control, or at 917 00:40:06,974 --> 00:40:10,234 least some influence, and then how do I 918 00:40:10,234 --> 00:40:13,066 shape things from there towards this idea 919 00:40:13,066 --> 00:40:16,222 of business where we're unapologetically 920 00:40:16,222 --> 00:40:19,986 pursuing both? So we're saying, okay, we 921 00:40:19,986 --> 00:40:22,334 can get to a place where, rather than 922 00:40:22,334 --> 00:40:24,258 burning out our team, because we see that, 923 00:40:24,258 --> 00:40:26,738 oh, my goodness, for us to actually be 924 00:40:26,738 --> 00:40:28,934 able to reduce costs and increase revenue 925 00:40:28,934 --> 00:40:30,966 and get that profit up, we're going to 926 00:40:30,966 --> 00:40:34,418 have to get more out of these workers. 927 00:40:34,418 --> 00:40:36,374 Shifting that perspective and saying, 928 00:40:36,374 --> 00:40:37,926 where could we innovate in the back end of 929 00:40:37,926 --> 00:40:40,794 our business model, where actually people 930 00:40:40,794 --> 00:40:42,982 could be doing less hours but being more 931 00:40:42,982 --> 00:40:44,890 productive? Or where are there pieces 932 00:40:44,890 --> 00:40:47,660 where we have something in house that 933 00:40:47,660 --> 00:40:50,998 actually, if we outsourced that, and I 934 00:40:50,998 --> 00:40:52,942 don't mean in the way of going to another 935 00:40:52,942 --> 00:40:55,530 country and paying people below a living 936 00:40:55,530 --> 00:40:58,190 wage, I mean figuring out what your core 937 00:40:58,190 --> 00:41:00,174 business is and then not being distracted 938 00:41:00,174 --> 00:41:02,750 by trying to be doing everything 939 00:41:02,750 --> 00:41:04,986 internally, all of these pieces are the 940 00:41:04,986 --> 00:41:07,714 role of a leader, whether a middle manager 941 00:41:07,714 --> 00:41:09,886 or someone actually running the company. 942 00:41:09,886 --> 00:41:12,558 It's to say, how do we change our 943 00:41:12,558 --> 00:41:13,986 perspective, starting from that place? 944 00:41:13,986 --> 00:41:15,874 That said, I do actually believe that you 945 00:41:15,874 --> 00:41:17,986 can merge money and meaning, and that I 946 00:41:17,986 --> 00:41:20,066 can get to a place where I see that 947 00:41:20,066 --> 00:41:22,566 purpose of business being, how do I know 948 00:41:22,566 --> 00:41:25,462 the value I bring? How do I understand the 949 00:41:25,462 --> 00:41:28,146 value customers want from us? And how do I 950 00:41:28,146 --> 00:41:30,554 capture value in return when it's that 951 00:41:30,554 --> 00:41:32,634 piece of delivering and capturing value 952 00:41:32,634 --> 00:41:34,662 and creating that beautiful self 953 00:41:34,662 --> 00:41:37,306 reinforcing loop where we're only growing 954 00:41:37,306 --> 00:41:39,802 on the back of adding more value, what 955 00:41:39,802 --> 00:41:44,222 that does, the delivery of value. And then 956 00:41:44,222 --> 00:41:47,360 that driving of revenue into your business 957 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:51,102 model suddenly means you are not in the 958 00:41:51,102 --> 00:41:53,226 position of being exhausted. And seeing 959 00:41:53,226 --> 00:41:56,194 this as another thing to add on, it 960 00:41:56,194 --> 00:41:58,274 actually relieves pressure and stress, 961 00:41:58,274 --> 00:42:01,214 both financially and on that mental load, 962 00:42:01,214 --> 00:42:03,938 people's well being. So creating that win 963 00:42:03,938 --> 00:42:05,798 win actually starts from that belief about 964 00:42:05,798 --> 00:42:07,878 the purpose of business and then looking 965 00:42:07,878 --> 00:42:12,022 at the opportunity differently. Yeah. So 966 00:42:12,022 --> 00:42:14,946 good. I love it. It's definitely the 967 00:42:14,946 --> 00:42:17,190 challenge of leaders, but there are good 968 00:42:17,190 --> 00:42:18,806 things being done and there's people doing 969 00:42:18,806 --> 00:42:21,670 it well. And I think that having these 970 00:42:21,670 --> 00:42:23,190 conversations is really helpful. 971 00:42:23,190 --> 00:42:25,242 Hopefully, people listening are getting 972 00:42:25,242 --> 00:42:27,274 new thoughts because of what they've heard 973 00:42:27,274 --> 00:42:29,338 you say and your own experiences. And I 974 00:42:29,338 --> 00:42:30,814 just thank you for sharing those with us 975 00:42:30,814 --> 00:42:34,206 today. Your unique background, bringing 976 00:42:34,206 --> 00:42:36,266 your work in both kind of nonprofit 977 00:42:36,266 --> 00:42:38,558 spaces, and then with government and 978 00:42:38,558 --> 00:42:41,086 business all together, these things are 979 00:42:41,086 --> 00:42:43,198 not at ods with each other. They can work 980 00:42:43,198 --> 00:42:45,226 together, even those entities, those 981 00:42:45,226 --> 00:42:46,366 institutions, to make a difference. So 982 00:42:46,366 --> 00:42:47,566 thank you for bringing that together for 983 00:42:47,566 --> 00:42:49,586 us today. Would you let people know where 984 00:42:49,586 --> 00:42:50,834 they can find you if they want to know 985 00:42:50,834 --> 00:42:52,894 more about your work? Do you have any 986 00:42:52,894 --> 00:42:54,386 freebies to offer that people might want 987 00:42:54,386 --> 00:42:56,338 to know about. And let people know about 988 00:42:56,338 --> 00:42:58,274 that? Yeah, absolutely. So the best place 989 00:42:58,274 --> 00:43:01,526 to go is to my website, bessiegraham.com. 990 00:43:01,526 --> 00:43:04,614 So we'll share the link, and we'll also 991 00:43:04,614 --> 00:43:06,886 share a link to a free download that you 992 00:43:06,886 --> 00:43:09,560 can grab, which goes through five of the 993 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:13,162 questions that over my 24, nearly 25 years 994 00:43:13,162 --> 00:43:15,494 of working in this space, I've found these 995 00:43:15,494 --> 00:43:18,486 patterns of five questions that decisive 996 00:43:18,486 --> 00:43:20,346 leaders need to actually have clarity on. 997 00:43:20,346 --> 00:43:21,994 And so if you want to have a read of that 998 00:43:21,994 --> 00:43:23,882 and think about, can you actually answer 999 00:43:23,882 --> 00:43:25,726 those questions? Where do you have some of 1000 00:43:25,726 --> 00:43:27,774 the gaps? That's a great place to start. 1001 00:43:27,774 --> 00:43:31,134 So head to the website and download that. 1002 00:43:31,134 --> 00:43:32,478 And from the website, you'll also be able 1003 00:43:32,478 --> 00:43:34,366 to find the podcast and any other bits you 1004 00:43:34,366 --> 00:43:37,106 might want to dig in a little bit more to 1005 00:43:37,106 --> 00:43:40,722 what I'm working on. Lovely. Thank you so 1006 00:43:40,722 --> 00:43:43,026 much, Bessie. It's been just an honor to 1007 00:43:43,026 --> 00:43:44,626 have this conversation with you. It's 1008 00:43:44,626 --> 00:43:47,086 given me new insights and a new 1009 00:43:47,086 --> 00:43:49,106 imagination for how things can be in 1010 00:43:49,106 --> 00:43:51,654 business and in nonprofit and all those 1011 00:43:51,654 --> 00:43:53,366 things together. And so just thank you for 1012 00:43:53,366 --> 00:43:54,566 this conversation. But we're going to have 1013 00:43:54,566 --> 00:43:56,578 you also hang out with our difference 1014 00:43:56,578 --> 00:43:58,406 makers. So any of you who aren't there, 1015 00:43:58,406 --> 00:44:02,054 you can check us out at ww patreon.com 1016 00:44:02,054 --> 00:44:04,026 slash a world of difference where Bessie 1017 00:44:04,026 --> 00:44:05,706 and I'll be having this conversation a 1018 00:44:05,706 --> 00:44:08,282 little deeper around the self leadership 1019 00:44:08,282 --> 00:44:10,806 piece and the resilience piece for our 1020 00:44:10,806 --> 00:44:12,474 leaders. I want to kind of dig a little 1021 00:44:12,474 --> 00:44:14,298 more into that with yeah, but for this 1022 00:44:14,298 --> 00:44:15,566 part of the conversation, just thank you 1023 00:44:15,566 --> 00:44:17,402 so much for being here today. It's been an 1024 00:44:17,402 --> 00:44:20,506 honor. My pleasure. Thank you. I really 1025 00:44:20,506 --> 00:44:22,074 learned so much from Bessie and her 1026 00:44:22,074 --> 00:44:24,318 perspective today. Just loved her stories 1027 00:44:24,318 --> 00:44:26,802 of sitting in the back of the truck, 1028 00:44:26,802 --> 00:44:29,326 right, of being the kind of leader who 1029 00:44:29,326 --> 00:44:31,454 understands that macro and micro 1030 00:44:31,454 --> 00:44:33,026 perspectives on a situation really lead to 1031 00:44:33,026 --> 00:44:35,406 the best decisions and to be more 1032 00:44:35,406 --> 00:44:37,334 inclusive in the people she listens to, to 1033 00:44:37,334 --> 00:44:40,722 make decisions that really matter, really 1034 00:44:40,722 --> 00:44:43,174 holding businesses to the values they set 1035 00:44:43,174 --> 00:44:44,946 out at the beginning to say, this is why 1036 00:44:44,946 --> 00:44:47,814 we're doing this and helping people start 1037 00:44:47,814 --> 00:44:50,202 at that beginning of the process instead 1038 00:44:50,202 --> 00:44:52,886 of making decisions way down the line and 1039 00:44:52,886 --> 00:44:55,354 forgetting why they do what they do. I 1040 00:44:55,354 --> 00:44:57,994 really do agree with her that when it 1041 00:44:57,994 --> 00:45:00,842 comes to resilience for leaders and why 1042 00:45:00,842 --> 00:45:03,326 people burn out some of the things we talk 1043 00:45:03,326 --> 00:45:05,994 a lot more deeply about in the difference 1044 00:45:05,994 --> 00:45:08,126 maker conversation. So please join us 1045 00:45:08,126 --> 00:45:11,870 there at Ww dot patreon.com a world of 1046 00:45:11,870 --> 00:45:13,226 difference where you'll get to hear that 1047 00:45:13,226 --> 00:45:14,686 exclusive interview with her. We go a lot 1048 00:45:14,686 --> 00:45:18,066 deeper into what it means to lead 1049 00:45:18,066 --> 00:45:20,110 yourself, have self leadership and 1050 00:45:20,110 --> 00:45:23,038 resilience in the face of all kinds of 1051 00:45:23,038 --> 00:45:24,398 circumstances. If I'm being honest, I 1052 00:45:24,398 --> 00:45:25,998 loved this podcast conversation you're 1053 00:45:25,998 --> 00:45:28,754 listening to now. But I even loved more 1054 00:45:28,754 --> 00:45:30,706 the conversation we had on our difference 1055 00:45:30,706 --> 00:45:32,326 maker community. So please do check that 1056 00:45:32,326 --> 00:45:35,014 out. We go into what do you do when you 1057 00:45:35,014 --> 00:45:37,506 show up as a leader and you don't look or 1058 00:45:37,506 --> 00:45:39,846 seem like they expected you to be? How do 1059 00:45:39,846 --> 00:45:41,926 you navigate that situation? What are some 1060 00:45:41,926 --> 00:45:43,706 tips and tricks she's learned along the 1061 00:45:43,706 --> 00:45:45,386 way? Who are people she's learned from 1062 00:45:45,386 --> 00:45:48,954 that have informed her how to be a leader 1063 00:45:48,954 --> 00:45:51,702 that stays true to yourself even when the 1064 00:45:51,702 --> 00:45:53,114 expectations of who you are going to be 1065 00:45:53,114 --> 00:45:54,458 looks a little different when you show up 1066 00:45:54,458 --> 00:45:57,418 in the room. And I loved that 1067 00:45:57,418 --> 00:45:59,022 conversation. I find that when we pass 1068 00:45:59,022 --> 00:46:00,606 along information to each other about 1069 00:46:00,606 --> 00:46:02,174 things we've learned and the knowledge we 1070 00:46:02,174 --> 00:46:04,274 have just from our own experience, and 1071 00:46:04,274 --> 00:46:05,954 someone like her, having a couple decades 1072 00:46:05,954 --> 00:46:09,794 of experience of not only working know, 1073 00:46:09,794 --> 00:46:12,334 having Geneva UN headquarters in her 1074 00:46:12,334 --> 00:46:14,210 background, but also Pacific islands and 1075 00:46:14,210 --> 00:46:16,210 then also the work she does there in a big 1076 00:46:16,210 --> 00:46:19,266 city and diverse Melbourne, Australia, she 1077 00:46:19,266 --> 00:46:21,414 brings all these things to the table and I 1078 00:46:21,414 --> 00:46:22,694 just really learned so much from her 1079 00:46:22,694 --> 00:46:24,054 today. I hope you did too. Whether you 1080 00:46:24,054 --> 00:46:27,382 work in business, nonprofit, government, 1081 00:46:27,382 --> 00:46:29,138 whatever your space is, I hope you've 1082 00:46:29,138 --> 00:46:30,966 gleaned from this conversation. It was 1083 00:46:30,966 --> 00:46:32,874 just so much fun to talk to her. And once 1084 00:46:32,874 --> 00:46:35,462 again, please do check out the Patreon. 1085 00:46:35,462 --> 00:46:38,730 It's ww dot patreon.com. A world of 1086 00:46:38,730 --> 00:46:41,434 difference where you're going to just love 1087 00:46:41,434 --> 00:46:43,198 that conversation we had there, where we 1088 00:46:43,198 --> 00:46:45,454 go a lot deeper on the whole resilience 1089 00:46:45,454 --> 00:46:47,406 piece, self leadership piece, and how to 1090 00:46:47,406 --> 00:46:49,134 be authentically yourself in the midst of 1091 00:46:49,134 --> 00:46:52,270 really difficult circumstances sometimes. 1092 00:46:52,270 --> 00:46:55,794 So I know that many of you are just all 1093 00:46:55,794 --> 00:46:58,430 around the world dealing with hard 1094 00:46:58,430 --> 00:47:00,674 decisions. So hopefully know bringing some 1095 00:47:00,674 --> 00:47:03,154 more congruence into the decisions that 1096 00:47:03,154 --> 00:47:05,806 you make will help alleviate some of that 1097 00:47:05,806 --> 00:47:07,362 burnout that some of you may be feeling. 1098 00:47:07,362 --> 00:47:09,286 Because I know you difference makers, you 1099 00:47:09,286 --> 00:47:12,262 are not couch potatoes. You were people 1100 00:47:12,262 --> 00:47:14,178 who do need a break and do need a day of 1101 00:47:14,178 --> 00:47:16,662 laying on the couch occasionally just to 1102 00:47:16,662 --> 00:47:20,706 watch Netflix and just eat your favorite 1103 00:47:20,706 --> 00:47:22,586 ice cream. I don't know, some of you out 1104 00:47:22,586 --> 00:47:25,740 there just need a break, but at the same 1105 00:47:25,740 --> 00:47:27,866 time doing the work that you do that helps 1106 00:47:27,866 --> 00:47:29,626 you stay congruent with who you are. I 1107 00:47:29,626 --> 00:47:31,034 hope that you lean a little more into that 1108 00:47:31,034 --> 00:47:33,066 after this conversation and that she can 1109 00:47:33,066 --> 00:47:36,214 give some of her insights, can give you 1110 00:47:36,214 --> 00:47:37,658 handles on how to move forward in a way 1111 00:47:37,658 --> 00:47:39,278 that's more authentically who you are. We 1112 00:47:39,278 --> 00:47:41,086 need you to show up as yourself in the 1113 00:47:41,086 --> 00:47:42,794 world and bring your difference to the 1114 00:47:42,794 --> 00:47:44,462 table and help us all make a difference 1115 00:47:44,462 --> 00:47:46,378 together because of who you are. And you 1116 00:47:46,378 --> 00:47:48,826 don't have to be like everybody else. So 1117 00:47:48,826 --> 00:47:51,646 I'm glad she reminded us of that today. 1118 00:47:51,646 --> 00:47:53,662 Anyway, wherever you are in the world, 1119 00:47:53,662 --> 00:47:55,702 please just take care of yourself and keep