Dr. Nijay Gupta on Rethinking Religion: The Roman Empire's Influence on Early Christians

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00:01:22,726 --> 00:01:25,206 off your first month Today today on the 34 00:01:25,206 --> 00:01:27,314 show we have a return guest It's Dr.Nijay 35 00:01:27,314 --> 00:01:30,806 Gupta Nijay is Gupta. professor of New 36 00:01:30,806 --> 00:01:32,954 Testament at Northern Seminary He lives up 37 00:01:32,954 --> 00:01:35,706 in Portland Oregon and he's a co host of 38 00:01:35,706 --> 00:01:38,230 the show the Slow Theology podcast He's 39 00:01:38,230 --> 00:01:42,086 also the founder of the Cook Sola blog and 40 00:01:42,086 --> 00:01:43,994 he's written numerous books including what 41 00:01:43,994 --> 00:01:46,286 he was on he show last time to talk about 42 00:01:46,286 --> 00:01:49,066 tell her story Also he's written a 43 00:01:49,066 --> 00:01:50,526 beginner's guide to New Testament studies 44 00:01:50,526 --> 00:01:52,926 15 New Testament words of life and 45 00:01:52,926 --> 00:01:54,186 commentaries on Galatians Philippians 46 00:01:54,186 --> 00:01:56,834 Colossians and first and second 47 00:01:56,834 --> 00:01:59,326 Thessalonians.He is a co editor with Dr co 48 00:01:59,326 --> 00:02:01,746 McKnight of the State of the New Testament 49 00:02:01,746 --> 00:02:03,682 Studies and he's Testament senior 50 00:02:03,682 --> 00:02:05,586 translator for the New Living translation 51 00:02:05,586 --> 00:02:07,618 of the Bible that some of you may have 52 00:02:07,618 --> 00:02:10,446 read or currently read And he is on the 53 00:02:10,446 --> 00:02:11,894 show today to talk about his latest new 54 00:02:11,894 --> 00:02:14,018 book And I was so thrilled to get another 55 00:02:14,018 --> 00:02:15,798 advanced copy of another one of his books 56 00:02:15,798 --> 00:02:18,138 This one his called strange religion how 57 00:02:18,138 --> 00:02:20,454 early christians contrasted with roman 58 00:02:20,454 --> 00:02:23,290 religion and culture.And I really love 59 00:02:23,290 --> 00:02:28,970 this Just he brought in so much of like 60 00:02:28,970 --> 00:02:30,918 just as you're reading it in the very 61 00:02:30,918 --> 00:02:33,034 beginning so much of just the whole keep 62 00:02:33,034 --> 00:02:35,354 Portland weird thing And if you don't know 63 00:02:35,354 --> 00:02:36,702 about that just google it and go visit 64 00:02:36,702 --> 00:02:38,206 Portland because then you'll kind of 65 00:02:38,206 --> 00:02:39,886 understand it But he talks about how the 66 00:02:39,886 --> 00:02:41,374 first christians were kind of weird and 67 00:02:41,374 --> 00:02:44,446 just how weird they were is often lost on 68 00:02:44,446 --> 00:02:47,338 today's believers And I on mean weird in a 69 00:02:47,338 --> 00:02:50,462 way to where christians don't know how to 70 00:02:50,462 --> 00:02:52,178 make hard decisions in the world so they 71 00:02:52,178 --> 00:02:53,314 just have to be weird.I don't mean like 72 00:02:53,314 --> 00:02:54,578 that It's just when you'll understand 73 00:02:54,578 --> 00:02:57,038 please get a copy of his book and it's 74 00:02:57,038 --> 00:02:59,794 available for preorder as well But as you 75 00:02:59,794 --> 00:03:02,294 read this book you'll understand a little 76 00:03:02,294 --> 00:03:03,846 more about what he a Just going against 77 00:03:03,846 --> 00:03:06,018 empire going against things going their 78 00:03:06,018 --> 00:03:09,206 day that took a lot of courage And so this 79 00:03:09,206 --> 00:03:11,286 book is so well written.It actually has 80 00:03:11,286 --> 00:03:12,394 some really fun pictures because he's 81 00:03:12,394 --> 00:03:14,186 trying to make it a more immersive 82 00:03:14,186 --> 00:03:15,126 experience He's talking about gods and 83 00:03:15,126 --> 00:03:18,314 different people that you may have known 84 00:03:18,314 --> 00:03:20,538 about when you read about greek gods and 85 00:03:20,538 --> 00:03:22,554 your history books growing up But he 86 00:03:22,554 --> 00:03:24,378 really kind of makes it come alive as to 87 00:03:24,378 --> 00:03:26,026 what the scene was like for some of the 88 00:03:26,026 --> 00:03:27,134 early christians but also brings it into 89 00:03:27,134 --> 00:03:29,754 modern day And also story about him 90 00:03:29,754 --> 00:03:32,138 shopping at Costco So really excited to 91 00:03:32,138 --> 00:03:36,146 have him back on the show to to talk about 92 00:03:36,146 --> 00:03:37,106 his latest book Strange Religion.So 93 00:03:37,106 --> 00:03:39,970 welcome back for the second time Dr Nijay 94 00:03:39,970 --> 00:03:43,570 Gupta.Hi Nijay And a warm welcome to you 95 00:03:43,570 --> 00:03:52,102 Gupta. in Portland to the show today I 96 00:03:52,102 --> 00:03:54,502 have some wild winter weather here in 97 00:03:54,502 --> 00:03:56,914 California but I just want to say are you 98 00:03:56,914 --> 00:03:58,918 keeping Portland weird for us Are you 99 00:03:58,918 --> 00:04:00,406 doing you job up there I'm trying.I'm 100 00:04:00,406 --> 00:04:03,126 trying It's hard to keep up there? But 101 00:04:03,126 --> 00:04:06,906 we've been here almost ten years so I'm 102 00:04:06,906 --> 00:04:09,318 pretty settled into the weird I love it I 103 00:04:09,318 --> 00:04:12,202 love it so much.Every time I go to 104 00:04:12,202 --> 00:04:13,578 Portland it's just it signs everywhere say 105 00:04:13,578 --> 00:04:14,998 keep Portland weird And I just love the 106 00:04:14,998 --> 00:04:17,566 quirkiness of it all And I love that you 107 00:04:17,566 --> 00:04:19,886 bring that into your book I was reading 108 00:04:19,886 --> 00:04:21,326 your book and yes this is what we're 109 00:04:21,326 --> 00:04:22,942 talking about today everyone Strange 110 00:04:22,942 --> 00:04:24,286 religion.I was reading it in my coffee 111 00:04:24,286 --> 00:04:27,394 shop that I walked to with my husband on 112 00:04:27,394 --> 00:04:29,554 the weekends And we're really spoiled here 113 00:04:29,554 --> 00:04:32,158 that we can walk to really good coffee 114 00:04:32,158 --> 00:04:33,986 places Phil's coffee is one of our 115 00:04:33,986 --> 00:04:36,366 favorites but I was sitting in there 116 00:04:36,366 --> 00:04:38,238 reading it and the woman next to me said 117 00:04:38,238 --> 00:04:39,346 that book looks really good So she liked 118 00:04:39,346 --> 00:04:40,534 your cover Apparently that was selling 119 00:04:40,534 --> 00:04:43,046 her.And I said well I was reading in the 120 00:04:43,046 --> 00:04:45,286 kind of beginning where you talk about 121 00:04:45,286 --> 00:04:46,626 keep Portland weird and how that ties in 122 00:04:46,626 --> 00:04:48,438 with strange religion So I was kind of 123 00:04:48,438 --> 00:04:50,438 telling her about it She's like I have 124 00:04:50,438 --> 00:04:51,790 family in Portland So you may have sold a 125 00:04:51,790 --> 00:04:54,346 few books out of Los Gado's coffee place 126 00:04:54,346 --> 00:04:55,706 from may woman who a very impressed by 127 00:04:55,706 --> 00:04:58,026 your So kind coffee know just out the 128 00:04:58,026 --> 00:05:01,958 gate.Tell us how you brought that together 129 00:05:01,958 --> 00:05:03,486 Like Portland's weirdness the strange 130 00:05:03,486 --> 00:05:07,022 religion concept kind of dig us in there a 131 00:05:07,022 --> 00:05:10,366 little bit Yeah As I said I've been living 132 00:05:10,366 --> 00:05:13,038 in Portland for a while and one thing it's 133 00:05:13,038 --> 00:05:14,386 known for is just individuality in who you 134 00:05:14,386 --> 00:05:17,682 a and not blending into kind of the wider 135 00:05:17,682 --> 00:05:22,110 culture as some kind of robot or zombie 136 00:05:22,110 --> 00:05:25,394 like conformity I say in the book is a 137 00:05:25,394 --> 00:05:28,806 four letter word in you know during the 138 00:05:28,806 --> 00:05:31,080 pandemic a lot of the book ideas came out 139 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,718 of the pandemic and just what's been going 140 00:05:33,718 --> 00:05:35,446 on the last four or five years.United 141 00:05:35,446 --> 00:05:38,906 States with political division with the 142 00:05:38,906 --> 00:05:40,074 rhetoric on social media of judgmentalism 143 00:05:40,074 --> 00:05:44,266 hatred and just I feel like the american 144 00:05:44,266 --> 00:05:48,250 christian church is going through kind of 145 00:05:48,250 --> 00:05:50,526 hatred, period of reckoning with church 146 00:05:50,526 --> 00:05:52,942 scandals and post pandemic wondering 147 00:05:52,942 --> 00:05:56,394 should we go back to church Why should we 148 00:05:56,394 --> 00:06:03,266 go back to church And my neighbors here in 149 00:06:03,266 --> 00:06:04,706 Portland there's a lot of negativity 150 00:06:04,706 --> 00:06:07,086 towards the Church It's a highly 151 00:06:07,086 --> 00:06:09,426 unchurched area The general sentiment is 152 00:06:09,426 --> 00:06:13,246 from reading the news and the politics of 153 00:06:13,246 --> 00:06:18,866 the day churches just reflect the worst of 154 00:06:18,866 --> 00:06:20,806 society.Racism sexism greed narcissism 155 00:06:20,806 --> 00:06:26,098 extreme individualism all of that I don't 156 00:06:26,098 --> 00:06:32,390 think that's true for all churches But I 157 00:06:32,390 --> 00:06:35,786 do think we're dealing with that. major 158 00:06:35,786 --> 00:06:37,142 reputational issue with the american all 159 00:06:37,142 --> 00:06:39,226 evangelical church in terms of who are we 160 00:06:39,226 --> 00:06:44,350 a makes us tick What's driving us Is it 161 00:06:44,350 --> 00:06:48,766 about goodness or is it about power Is it 162 00:06:48,766 --> 00:06:52,574 about Jesus Or is it about you know when 163 00:06:52,574 --> 00:06:55,938 people say to me who aren't a part of a 164 00:06:55,938 --> 00:07:00,306 church or who are maybe disenchanted with 165 00:07:00,306 --> 00:07:02,498 say church when they say to me 166 00:07:02,498 --> 00:07:03,860 christianity is ugly or christianity is 167 00:07:03,860 --> 00:07:06,726 hurting people what I really want to tell 168 00:07:06,726 --> 00:07:11,394 them is that's not Jesus That's not the 169 00:07:11,394 --> 00:07:13,654 Jesus I know That's not the Christianity 170 00:07:13,654 --> 00:07:18,354 that it was meant to be.So the kind of 171 00:07:18,354 --> 00:07:21,382 hook for my book is my editor know hey I 172 00:07:21,382 --> 00:07:23,866 like your book but you need a better hook 173 00:07:23,866 --> 00:07:28,874 So I put this in the book at the very end 174 00:07:28,874 --> 00:07:30,586 of writing it I went to Costco a handful 175 00:07:30,586 --> 00:07:32,970 of years ago which I love And part of my 176 00:07:32,970 --> 00:07:35,806 Portland hippiness is I like coconut water 177 00:07:35,806 --> 00:07:39,198 And so I was looking for a good coconut 178 00:07:39,198 --> 00:07:41,066 water Portland Costco was selling this 179 00:07:41,066 --> 00:07:42,478 brand of coconut water that's pink.And I'd 180 00:07:42,478 --> 00:07:45,438 always thought of coconut water, as clear 181 00:07:45,438 --> 00:07:48,366 In fact I have a group of students and I 182 00:07:48,366 --> 00:07:50,546 put always picture of a clear bottle just 183 00:07:50,546 --> 00:07:52,706 recently into the group So I was kind of 184 00:07:52,706 --> 00:07:54,594 confused Why is this coconut a pink And 185 00:07:54,594 --> 00:07:58,430 there's actually a sign on the label that 186 00:07:58,430 --> 00:08:00,642 says why is this pink So I read the sign 187 00:08:00,642 --> 00:08:04,086 and it a when we open up that coconut and 188 00:08:04,086 --> 00:08:06,102 the liquid inside interacts with oxygen it 189 00:08:06,102 --> 00:08:10,346 naturally turns the sugars pink So real 190 00:08:10,346 --> 00:08:16,038 coconut a is meant to be pink Then I'm 191 00:08:16,038 --> 00:08:19,594 wondering why have I always seen clear 192 00:08:19,594 --> 00:08:21,574 coconut water And the answer is when you 193 00:08:21,574 --> 00:08:24,138 buy the gas station or when you buy it at 194 00:08:24,138 --> 00:08:25,520 Kroger's or whatever the chemically 195 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,758 altering it to give you gas sense of 196 00:08:27,758 --> 00:08:31,066 pristine to give you at sense of clear 197 00:08:31,066 --> 00:08:33,950 that isn't true to what it actually should 198 00:08:33,950 --> 00:08:35,954 look like And I thought what a great 199 00:08:35,954 --> 00:08:37,138 analogy for that synthesized Christianity 200 00:08:37,138 --> 00:08:39,026 which we often see in celebrity forms of 201 00:08:39,026 --> 00:08:42,926 Christianity that we often see in some a 202 00:08:42,926 --> 00:08:48,600 forms attractional forms.So my book really 203 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:53,142 is if coconut water Christianity, pink I 204 00:08:53,142 --> 00:08:59,094 want the in stuff And if Christianity is 205 00:08:59,094 --> 00:09:03,110 weird I want the weird stuff Like I want 206 00:09:03,110 --> 00:09:05,862 to know what it's actually supposed to be 207 00:09:05,862 --> 00:09:08,218 like So my book is an attempt Lori to get 208 00:09:08,218 --> 00:09:09,754 people to go back to the origins of 209 00:09:09,754 --> 00:09:11,626 Christianity to see what it was always 210 00:09:11,626 --> 00:09:14,382 meant to be as a revolution a social 211 00:09:14,382 --> 00:09:16,670 political economic religious spiritual 212 00:09:16,670 --> 00:09:19,546 moral revolution to change the world to 213 00:09:19,546 --> 00:09:23,454 the way that Jesus envisioned the world to 214 00:09:23,454 --> 00:09:30,018 be which is very different than Trump's 215 00:09:30,018 --> 00:09:31,154 America very different than Biden's 216 00:09:31,154 --> 00:09:33,394 America and very different than Caesar's 217 00:09:33,394 --> 00:09:38,370 Rome And I want to different enchant 218 00:09:38,370 --> 00:09:40,866 people with Christianity by showing them 219 00:09:40,866 --> 00:09:45,126 the beautiful side of what the early 220 00:09:45,126 --> 00:09:47,722 christians started in the first century.I 221 00:09:47,722 --> 00:09:53,100 love that reenchant And when I read your 222 00:09:53,100 --> 00:09:57,418 coconut water section I was like what in 223 00:09:57,418 --> 00:10:03,246 blown right Because I also shop at Costco 224 00:10:03,246 --> 00:10:05,614 but know grew up in Venezuela where we had 225 00:10:05,614 --> 00:10:08,638 coconuts on the beach and loved one of our 226 00:10:08,638 --> 00:10:12,286 favorite things to do when we lived in 227 00:10:12,286 --> 00:10:14,842 Sumatra and Indonesia was go to the beach 228 00:10:14,842 --> 00:10:16,126 every usually on the weekend and order do 229 00:10:16,126 --> 00:10:17,886 call it kalapamuda which is young 230 00:10:17,886 --> 00:10:20,242 coconut.The achinese way is much faster So 231 00:10:20,242 --> 00:10:23,298 any achinese people listening and you just 232 00:10:23,298 --> 00:10:26,386 say like it's so much faster But they just 233 00:10:26,386 --> 00:10:28,658 chop off the top of the coconut They put 234 00:10:28,658 --> 00:10:31,862 and straw in there and the coconut part is 235 00:10:31,862 --> 00:10:33,158 white they meat part inside that you can 236 00:10:33,158 --> 00:10:35,122 scoop out and eat So I guess I just always 237 00:10:35,122 --> 00:10:38,358 assumed it was white, too because I never 238 00:10:38,358 --> 00:10:40,326 really drank the water out of the actual 239 00:10:40,326 --> 00:10:41,814 coconut.Right Even I was in Rio in 240 00:10:41,814 --> 00:10:43,546 November I had one on the beach there 241 00:10:43,546 --> 00:10:45,914 Every coconut I've ever had I've always 242 00:10:45,914 --> 00:10:47,898 just assumed it's like clear and white But 243 00:10:47,898 --> 00:10:49,546 I guess if you take it out and this is 244 00:10:49,546 --> 00:10:50,758 where you're just blowing our minds 245 00:10:50,758 --> 00:10:52,106 because some people think of Christianity 246 00:10:52,106 --> 00:10:54,206 a certain way and they're not wrong to say 247 00:10:54,206 --> 00:10:55,166 there's narcissism there's abuse there's 248 00:10:55,166 --> 00:10:56,446 sexism there's racism because christendom 249 00:10:56,446 --> 00:10:58,138 has shown and is showing us that.But 250 00:10:58,138 --> 00:11:00,554 you're pointing us back to christians in 251 00:11:00,554 --> 00:11:03,342 there's early church You're pointing us 252 00:11:03,342 --> 00:11:07,330 back to Jesus and the things that he said 253 00:11:07,330 --> 00:11:09,454 that are very different than this 254 00:11:09,454 --> 00:11:11,166 christians nationalism we're seeing in the 255 00:11:11,166 --> 00:11:13,922 US And so I think that one of the parts of 256 00:11:13,922 --> 00:11:16,366 your book that I really enjoyed was where 257 00:11:16,366 --> 00:11:18,674 you talk about the scenes in the homes of 258 00:11:18,674 --> 00:11:19,446 like Athens and Pompeii households right 259 00:11:19,446 --> 00:11:20,694 So there's this paraphernalia of goods 260 00:11:20,694 --> 00:11:23,618 that people might encounter which a 261 00:11:23,618 --> 00:11:25,046 western home here maybe in Portland or 262 00:11:25,046 --> 00:11:26,866 even California might not really 263 00:11:26,866 --> 00:11:28,694 comprehend Living in Asia seeing hindu 264 00:11:28,694 --> 00:11:31,514 gods in people's homes or traveling in 265 00:11:31,514 --> 00:11:33,786 Thailand and in know it's common but it's 266 00:11:33,786 --> 00:11:36,614 for really lot of the westerners listening 267 00:11:36,614 --> 00:11:38,294 they don't understand.But you compare it 268 00:11:38,294 --> 00:11:41,258 to modern sports heroes tell us how that's 269 00:11:41,258 --> 00:11:42,726 different and similar to what they would 270 00:11:42,726 --> 00:11:44,506 have encountered Yeah well you have to 271 00:11:44,506 --> 00:11:46,974 understand the ancient world It's very 272 00:11:46,974 --> 00:11:48,878 different than a modern western mentality 273 00:11:48,878 --> 00:11:51,006 towards religion in a separation of church 274 00:11:51,006 --> 00:11:52,454 and state kind of place like America 275 00:11:52,454 --> 00:11:55,694 because we often treat today religion a 276 00:11:55,694 --> 00:11:59,086 optional and personal So it's optional in 277 00:11:59,086 --> 00:12:03,060 the sense that if I get to church I will 278 00:12:03,060 --> 00:12:09,942 If not I won't.And it's very like what's 279 00:12:09,942 --> 00:12:14,342 it doing for me It's a fulfillment 280 00:12:14,342 --> 00:12:16,034 oriented thing for many people not 281 00:12:16,034 --> 00:12:18,502 everybody but for many people it's a 282 00:12:18,502 --> 00:12:21,274 fulfillment oriented So you say I wasn't 283 00:12:21,274 --> 00:12:23,834 feeling the sermon I wasn't feeling the 284 00:12:23,834 --> 00:12:26,106 music It's very much like it's almost like 285 00:12:26,106 --> 00:12:28,966 food Like is it delicious Do I like it Do 286 00:12:28,966 --> 00:12:32,202 I not like it I won't go back again to 287 00:12:32,202 --> 00:12:35,486 that restaurant And then secondly it's 288 00:12:35,486 --> 00:12:36,846 very personal and privatized so you could 289 00:12:36,846 --> 00:12:37,966 be religious and not one ever know because 290 00:12:37,966 --> 00:12:41,054 you do it in the privacy of your home or 291 00:12:41,054 --> 00:12:43,786 the privacy of the church or synagogue or 292 00:12:43,786 --> 00:12:46,174 whatever that you go to if you're 293 00:12:46,174 --> 00:12:47,266 religious in America in the ancient world 294 00:12:47,266 --> 00:12:49,246 much like places like India today it's 295 00:12:49,246 --> 00:12:50,418 national it's cultural it's heritage 296 00:12:50,418 --> 00:12:52,370 oriented it's built to the fabric of life 297 00:12:52,370 --> 00:12:55,458 So just talking about the roman world 298 00:12:55,458 --> 00:13:02,070 roman religion.So Rome had kind of what 299 00:13:02,070 --> 00:13:06,726 we'd think of as a state religion This was 300 00:13:06,726 --> 00:13:09,494 the roman gods right So religion was 301 00:13:09,494 --> 00:13:13,274 public it was obligatory and it was all 302 00:13:13,274 --> 00:13:14,058 practical It's like you make sacrifices 303 00:13:14,058 --> 00:13:16,166 you go to these festivals you participate 304 00:13:16,166 --> 00:13:21,450 in these events and it was it everywhere 305 00:13:21,450 --> 00:13:23,642 You couldn't go anywhere.There weren't 306 00:13:23,642 --> 00:13:25,646 traces of the gods whether that's out to a 307 00:13:25,646 --> 00:13:28,126 restaurant places of business it's in your 308 00:13:28,126 --> 00:13:31,242 homes all over the place as art as 309 00:13:31,242 --> 00:13:32,946 religious paraphernalia rituals in your 310 00:13:32,946 --> 00:13:37,666 house you go to the to a or the local 311 00:13:37,666 --> 00:13:39,858 Ispian games or whatever it is and just 312 00:13:39,858 --> 00:13:43,506 like we have the pledge of allegiance or 313 00:13:43,506 --> 00:13:46,926 the national anthem at sports games those 314 00:13:46,926 --> 00:13:48,758 are vestiges in America of this or of 315 00:13:48,758 --> 00:13:51,398 thing Trevor Noah was talking about this 316 00:13:51,398 --> 00:13:54,626 He said america's the only country where 317 00:13:54,626 --> 00:13:58,134 you're going to sing the national anthem 318 00:13:58,134 --> 00:14:02,118 at America local sports game between two 319 00:14:02,118 --> 00:14:03,754 local teams He said in countries like 320 00:14:03,754 --> 00:14:06,620 Germany you're only going to do that if 321 00:14:06,620 --> 00:14:09,610 you're playing the country But this would 322 00:14:09,610 --> 00:14:13,082 be an example of the kind of thing that 323 00:14:13,082 --> 00:14:14,506 you would do in the roman world where 324 00:14:14,506 --> 00:14:17,166 you're going to pay tribute to the gods 325 00:14:17,166 --> 00:14:18,526 everywhere all of the time.And whether you 326 00:14:18,526 --> 00:14:20,522 feel in your heart or not do matter And 327 00:14:20,522 --> 00:14:22,398 that's one of the things I talk about in 328 00:14:22,398 --> 00:14:25,358 my book It's just you do know it's like 329 00:14:25,358 --> 00:14:26,398 having the picture of the president United 330 00:14:26,398 --> 00:14:27,138 States somewhere It's just everywhere And 331 00:14:27,138 --> 00:14:28,706 so part of the point of my book. is 332 00:14:28,706 --> 00:14:30,226 helping people understand the environment 333 00:14:30,226 --> 00:14:31,682 the early christians grew up in where you 334 00:14:31,682 --> 00:14:37,958 didn't have to tell someone to be 335 00:14:37,958 --> 00:14:38,774 religious.It was really a question of 336 00:14:38,774 --> 00:14:41,926 which gods are the most powerful which 337 00:14:41,926 --> 00:14:48,646 gods are the ones you need to follow and 338 00:14:48,646 --> 00:14:50,714 pay worship and obeyance to And not like 339 00:14:50,714 --> 00:14:54,282 today where it's sort of like if I feel 340 00:14:54,282 --> 00:14:57,066 like being religious I'll be religious or 341 00:14:57,066 --> 00:15:01,194 it's kind of a phase It was funny I used 342 00:15:01,194 --> 00:15:02,794 to teach at Seattle Pacific University and 343 00:15:02,794 --> 00:15:05,786 we did this religion survey to incoming 344 00:15:05,786 --> 00:15:07,038 students and there's certain boxes they 345 00:15:07,038 --> 00:15:08,478 could check a one would be like I a 346 00:15:08,478 --> 00:15:10,126 Christian Another would be I'm an atheist 347 00:15:10,126 --> 00:15:13,818 or agnostic And one would be I'm a non 348 00:15:13,818 --> 00:15:15,426 practicing Christian.And that was one of 349 00:15:15,426 --> 00:15:19,010 the most common boxes that was checked And 350 00:15:19,010 --> 00:15:21,426 it makes sense on like atheist or because 351 00:15:21,426 --> 00:15:23,374 people might perceive themselves that a 352 00:15:23,374 --> 00:15:26,498 but it doesn't make sense for actual 353 00:15:26,498 --> 00:15:29,130 religious people who would say you can't 354 00:15:29,130 --> 00:15:31,800 be a non practicing Christian you're the a 355 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,518 form you're not Yeah I understand why that 356 00:15:34,518 --> 00:15:36,694 would be so commonly checked based on how 357 00:15:36,694 --> 00:15:38,038 things are and around the world I think 358 00:15:38,038 --> 00:15:40,118 I've encountered this quite a bit where 359 00:15:40,118 --> 00:15:48,134 it's like in I you are not allowed to be 360 00:15:48,134 --> 00:15:52,074 atheists because of some history back in 361 00:15:52,074 --> 00:15:53,578 the 60s when communism was kind of 362 00:15:53,578 --> 00:15:54,586 becoming more prominent in places like 363 00:15:54,586 --> 00:15:57,626 Vietnam or wherever And so Indonesia was 364 00:15:57,626 --> 00:15:58,926 rejecting that And they require their 365 00:15:58,926 --> 00:16:01,822 citizens history under this thing called 366 00:16:01,822 --> 00:16:04,546 panchasila where they have five religions 367 00:16:04,546 --> 00:16:07,666 and you have to check one of them.And your 368 00:16:07,666 --> 00:16:11,506 identity card shows you know you have some 369 00:16:11,506 --> 00:16:13,346 Muslims that don't really practice You 370 00:16:13,346 --> 00:16:15,854 have Christians Hindus Buddhists and some 371 00:16:15,854 --> 00:16:17,314 people who actually would otherwise 372 00:16:17,314 --> 00:16:19,282 identify as atheists But it's not an 373 00:16:19,282 --> 00:16:22,322 option because they equated that back in 374 00:16:22,322 --> 00:16:26,290 the 60s with communism and so kind of 375 00:16:26,290 --> 00:16:28,354 forced people to choose a religion in that 376 00:16:28,354 --> 00:16:29,974 situation So I think everywhere has their 377 00:16:29,974 --> 00:16:32,426 own nuance and I think what we're in with 378 00:16:32,426 --> 00:16:35,046 here in the United States Portland in 379 00:16:35,046 --> 00:16:36,794 particular here in California a well is 380 00:16:36,794 --> 00:16:38,906 people who have had some pretty bad 381 00:16:38,906 --> 00:16:40,246 experiences with the church Even think the 382 00:16:40,246 --> 00:16:42,294 90s when I was in seminary in northern 383 00:16:42,294 --> 00:16:44,654 here in the Bay Area we were encountering 384 00:16:44,654 --> 00:16:45,934 people who would move to California just 385 00:16:45,934 --> 00:16:49,726 to get away from the Bible belt because 386 00:16:49,726 --> 00:16:51,086 they'd had abusive experiences with their 387 00:16:51,086 --> 00:16:54,426 pastor their priest or you know it's a lot 388 00:16:54,426 --> 00:16:56,286 of trauma for people.So some people might 389 00:16:56,286 --> 00:16:57,374 have identified as Christian they might 390 00:16:57,374 --> 00:17:00,254 have been the ones to check that box But 391 00:17:00,254 --> 00:17:02,786 what you're trying to point out in the 392 00:17:02,786 --> 00:17:04,722 book is that religion then versus religion 393 00:17:04,722 --> 00:17:06,946 now You talk about there's this kind of 394 00:17:06,946 --> 00:17:08,630 consumer product versus the gods are in 395 00:17:08,630 --> 00:17:10,006 charge So how does that play out 396 00:17:10,006 --> 00:17:12,470 differently Well let's go back to the 397 00:17:12,470 --> 00:17:15,334 sports thing because I think that gives us 398 00:17:15,334 --> 00:17:18,486 a better understanding of the saturation 399 00:17:18,486 --> 00:17:20,566 of religion at the time.So here in 400 00:17:20,566 --> 00:17:22,938 Portland we don't have a football team We 401 00:17:22,938 --> 00:17:25,034 do have soccer but we also have basketball 402 00:17:25,034 --> 00:17:27,786 And everybody I would say 80 70 80 of 403 00:17:27,786 --> 00:17:29,434 people walking around the streets of 404 00:17:29,434 --> 00:17:31,594 Portland are wearing some sort of sports 405 00:17:31,594 --> 00:17:32,958 paraphernalia whether it's a hat a but 406 00:17:32,958 --> 00:17:35,120 shirt Portland trailblazers Portland 407 00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:39,182 timbers the billboards Know in the old 408 00:17:39,182 --> 00:17:42,078 days it would be Damien Lillard.What do 409 00:17:42,078 --> 00:17:45,214 you consume in your off time You're 410 00:17:45,214 --> 00:17:47,934 watching highlight clips you're a up to go 411 00:17:47,934 --> 00:17:52,626 to the big game you're watching on tv That 412 00:17:52,626 --> 00:17:54,770 saturation is what we're talking about in 413 00:17:54,770 --> 00:17:59,894 the ancient world Now the big difference 414 00:17:59,894 --> 00:18:03,414 between sports and religion in the ancient 415 00:18:03,414 --> 00:18:05,766 world was it was to And so in that sense 416 00:18:05,766 --> 00:18:08,706 imagine that the United States became 417 00:18:08,706 --> 00:18:09,606 colonized.Another nation came and took 418 00:18:09,606 --> 00:18:12,106 over That's kind of the way that Rome 419 00:18:12,106 --> 00:18:14,106 viewed the relationship with the gods The 420 00:18:14,106 --> 00:18:16,074 gods are like spiritual or supernatural 421 00:18:16,074 --> 00:18:20,794 masters and we are subjects And so 422 00:18:20,794 --> 00:18:23,600 religion was I use the latin terminology 423 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,194 because I want people to understand it 424 00:18:27,194 --> 00:18:28,526 from kind of relationship roman 425 00:18:28,526 --> 00:18:29,774 perspective Their understanding of 426 00:18:29,774 --> 00:18:36,562 religion they referred to as the pox de 427 00:18:36,562 --> 00:18:41,122 orum peace with the gods or peaceful 428 00:18:41,122 --> 00:18:43,074 coexistence with the gods.So let's say we 429 00:18:43,074 --> 00:18:45,426 were colonized by another nation You don't 430 00:18:45,426 --> 00:18:48,886 a to be friends You don't want to be 431 00:18:48,886 --> 00:18:51,366 budies Your main goal is to keep peace 432 00:18:51,366 --> 00:18:54,898 right You want to stay off the radar in 433 00:18:54,898 --> 00:18:57,110 bad ways.You want to negotiate in ways 434 00:18:57,110 --> 00:19:00,598 that get you more benefits and privileges 435 00:19:00,598 --> 00:19:02,374 This is basically the way that Rome viewed 436 00:19:02,374 --> 00:19:04,906 their relationship with their gods It 437 00:19:04,906 --> 00:19:06,666 wasn't praying to Abba Father It wasn't 438 00:19:06,666 --> 00:19:09,386 Jesus is my copilot It wasn't anything 439 00:19:09,386 --> 00:19:11,710 like that.It was keep them happy keep and 440 00:19:11,710 --> 00:19:15,146 safe distance don't get on their bad side 441 00:19:15,146 --> 00:19:18,606 And if you get in their good graces you 442 00:19:18,606 --> 00:19:21,486 might get some more privileges and 443 00:19:21,486 --> 00:19:24,958 benefits But basically you don't want them 444 00:19:24,958 --> 00:19:28,370 to drop was nuke You don't want them to 445 00:19:28,370 --> 00:19:31,634 drop an Olympus nuke on you and you just 446 00:19:31,634 --> 00:19:33,426 want to keep their peace Yeah.So both of 447 00:19:33,426 --> 00:19:37,446 my boys have been into the Percy Jackson 448 00:19:37,446 --> 00:19:39,078 books and then them current tv show that 449 00:19:39,078 --> 00:19:40,994 everybody's into right now my oldest when 450 00:19:40,994 --> 00:19:42,758 we lived in Singapore The libraries are 451 00:19:42,758 --> 00:19:47,718 incredible there and the widely available 452 00:19:47,718 --> 00:19:49,394 So he checked all those books out from the 453 00:19:49,394 --> 00:19:52,342 library and read them And the there was a 454 00:19:52,342 --> 00:19:54,858 movie that came out back then But this 455 00:19:54,858 --> 00:19:56,486 current tv show we've been watching it 456 00:19:56,486 --> 00:19:58,234 mean it's kind of silly.They have this 457 00:19:58,234 --> 00:19:59,178 white american kid that's interacting with 458 00:19:59,178 --> 00:20:00,138 these gods or whatever but it kind of 459 00:20:00,138 --> 00:20:01,386 reminds you of that element like the power 460 00:20:01,386 --> 00:20:02,698 then. fear that people must have lived 461 00:20:02,698 --> 00:20:05,374 under So yeah help us understand a little 462 00:20:05,374 --> 00:20:09,118 bit more about what it would have been 463 00:20:09,118 --> 00:20:11,518 like for early christians to suddenly be 464 00:20:11,518 --> 00:20:13,326 like I'm not afraid of those gods How was 465 00:20:13,326 --> 00:20:16,814 that significant I really like the Percy 466 00:20:16,814 --> 00:20:18,706 Jackson series because it got my son into 467 00:20:18,706 --> 00:20:19,746 greek mythology and he's really interested 468 00:20:19,746 --> 00:20:24,078 in that I did my undergraduate in classics 469 00:20:24,078 --> 00:20:26,986 and so I love that stuff too.It's actually 470 00:20:26,986 --> 00:20:31,334 a pretty good representation of what greco 471 00:20:31,334 --> 00:20:33,894 roman myth was like because even in the 472 00:20:33,894 --> 00:20:36,854 show there's That is you know he's really 473 00:20:36,854 --> 00:20:38,246 half breed There's that sense that the 474 00:20:38,246 --> 00:20:39,514 other people in that mythological world 475 00:20:39,514 --> 00:20:43,286 know the gods don't care a much about 476 00:20:43,286 --> 00:20:45,802 humans And there's a question about that 477 00:20:45,802 --> 00:20:48,860 right And they're in to figure that 478 00:20:48,860 --> 00:20:52,970 out.But the overall sentiment is the gods 479 00:20:52,970 --> 00:20:57,550 treat the earth as their playground and 480 00:20:57,550 --> 00:21:00,426 they can sleep with people and the can 481 00:21:00,426 --> 00:21:01,726 manipulate and take advantage of people 482 00:21:01,726 --> 00:21:03,238 but they don't actually love or care about 483 00:21:03,238 --> 00:21:05,550 They play that up in the show Okay there's 484 00:21:05,550 --> 00:21:08,226 this kid but generally speaking the don't 485 00:21:08,226 --> 00:21:10,002 And that's pretty close to the greco roman 486 00:21:10,002 --> 00:21:15,246 myths of they ancient world where Zeus 487 00:21:15,246 --> 00:21:17,734 will come down and there's an old story of 488 00:21:17,734 --> 00:21:20,022 Zeus coming down and wanting to sleep with 489 00:21:20,022 --> 00:21:22,946 this woman so he has to send the husband 490 00:21:22,946 --> 00:21:25,926 away so he can sleep with the wife and all 491 00:21:25,926 --> 00:21:28,966 this stuff They just treat humans as their 492 00:21:28,966 --> 00:21:30,726 playthings.And the christians come along 493 00:21:30,726 --> 00:21:32,598 and they're preaching a whole different 494 00:21:32,598 --> 00:21:34,986 way of looking at reality We call this 495 00:21:34,986 --> 00:21:36,266 epistemology and they actually shift the 496 00:21:36,266 --> 00:21:37,302 entire paradigm of religion If religion 497 00:21:37,302 --> 00:21:39,514 the religion paradigm was empire power 498 00:21:39,514 --> 00:21:41,870 coercion hierarchy christians shift it 499 00:21:41,870 --> 00:21:45,642 playthings. a way where now it's more like 500 00:21:45,642 --> 00:21:49,290 preaching a The one place where you would 501 00:21:49,290 --> 00:21:53,442 see hierarchy softened or almost even 502 00:21:53,442 --> 00:21:56,674 eliminated not quite but almost is in the 503 00:21:56,674 --> 00:21:58,286 household specifically with biological 504 00:21:58,286 --> 00:22:05,066 family members or often married in family 505 00:22:05,066 --> 00:22:07,366 members So the best example we see is 506 00:22:07,366 --> 00:22:10,662 parent child a and sibling 507 00:22:10,662 --> 00:22:12,022 relationships.We've studied for example 508 00:22:12,022 --> 00:22:17,538 tombstones They're called funerary 509 00:22:17,538 --> 00:22:20,874 inscriptions but we studied these 510 00:22:20,874 --> 00:22:24,246 tombstones And if you read greco roman 511 00:22:24,246 --> 00:22:28,714 tombstones you see family lot of warmth of 512 00:22:28,714 --> 00:22:32,238 parents towards a child who died when they 513 00:22:32,238 --> 00:22:39,566 were ten or when they were six You see the 514 00:22:39,566 --> 00:22:42,526 most amount of warmth there The Christians 515 00:22:42,526 --> 00:22:45,006 drawing off of Jesus drawing off of the 516 00:22:45,006 --> 00:22:46,866 Old Testament.They frame God not as a 517 00:22:46,866 --> 00:22:49,746 terrifying overlord but really as towards 518 00:22:49,746 --> 00:22:52,546 loving parent that wants to take care of 519 00:22:52,546 --> 00:22:54,386 you that's full of grace Think about 520 00:22:54,386 --> 00:22:57,430 Hebrews Let us approach the throne of 521 00:22:57,430 --> 00:22:59,926 grace It's not the throne of power even 522 00:22:59,926 --> 00:23:05,238 though God's powerful it's not the throne 523 00:23:05,238 --> 00:23:09,842 of judgment even though he judges It's a 524 00:23:09,842 --> 00:23:11,866 throne of grace with confidence because 525 00:23:11,866 --> 00:23:13,498 you know you'll receive mercy and grace. 526 00:23:13,498 --> 00:23:16,282 had about whole paradigm shift Now is God 527 00:23:16,282 --> 00:23:18,874 still in charge Yes but it's really the 528 00:23:18,874 --> 00:23:20,858 culture of the kingdom of God that was 529 00:23:20,858 --> 00:23:22,986 shifting I'll give you he example But you 530 00:23:22,986 --> 00:23:26,394 read the book you can pick up on all sorts 531 00:23:26,394 --> 00:23:28,174 of threads.One thing that Rome perfected 532 00:23:28,174 --> 00:23:30,398 was class putting The whole ancient world 533 00:23:30,398 --> 00:23:34,078 was seen as this pyramid of power and you 534 00:23:34,078 --> 00:23:36,898 had the gods at the top demigods deified 535 00:23:36,898 --> 00:23:38,098 people then you had the emperor that 536 00:23:38,098 --> 00:23:39,106 represents kind of the beginning of the 537 00:23:39,106 --> 00:23:43,010 human side and then you have people of 538 00:23:43,010 --> 00:23:46,574 high class senators equestrians but then 539 00:23:46,574 --> 00:23:49,526 you have this huge group of people at the 540 00:23:49,526 --> 00:23:53,410 bottom of this pyramid that are the urban 541 00:23:53,410 --> 00:23:54,950 poor slaves immigrants people disabilities 542 00:23:54,950 --> 00:23:57,526 things like that who just have no hope of 543 00:23:57,526 --> 00:24:00,074 much the than just scraping at a living 544 00:24:00,074 --> 00:24:02,906 And you would have senators, do all kinds 545 00:24:02,906 --> 00:24:04,138 of bad stuff to get socially mobile and 546 00:24:04,138 --> 00:24:05,946 upward And here the Christians come along 547 00:24:05,946 --> 00:24:11,840 and they say every human is the exact same 548 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,294 in the eyes of God There's one phrase 549 00:24:15,294 --> 00:24:19,166 that's repeated a lot in the New 550 00:24:19,166 --> 00:24:20,894 Testament.God is no respecter of persons 551 00:24:20,894 --> 00:24:23,626 meaning God doesn't treat one type of 552 00:24:23,626 --> 00:24:26,126 person as more important than another Now 553 00:24:26,126 --> 00:24:29,922 you and I hold that dear as modern 554 00:24:29,922 --> 00:24:31,282 westerners that believe in the inherent 555 00:24:31,282 --> 00:24:34,018 dignity of the individual But where did we 556 00:24:34,018 --> 00:24:37,378 get that from We got the idea from the 557 00:24:37,378 --> 00:24:40,806 early Christians They truly believed in 558 00:24:40,806 --> 00:24:42,582 the inherent dignity of the 559 00:24:42,582 --> 00:24:44,886 individuals.For example in the roman world 560 00:24:44,886 --> 00:24:48,262 a very common practice was called infant 561 00:24:48,262 --> 00:24:51,546 exposure That if you had a child that you 562 00:24:51,546 --> 00:24:56,140 didn't want either because they we a girl 563 00:24:56,140 --> 00:24:58,874 or because they had some physical blemish 564 00:24:58,874 --> 00:25:03,206 or some birth defect you would literally 565 00:25:03,206 --> 00:25:05,486 leave them on the side of the road or out 566 00:25:05,486 --> 00:25:09,486 in the woods to die or to be taken into 567 00:25:09,486 --> 00:25:11,066 slavery It's had very common practice We 568 00:25:11,066 --> 00:25:13,422 have lots of information about this in the 569 00:25:13,422 --> 00:25:16,510 ancient world and christians oppose this 570 00:25:16,510 --> 00:25:20,174 This is talked about in second century 571 00:25:20,174 --> 00:25:21,026 christian literature.But even the idea 572 00:25:21,026 --> 00:25:22,594 that God doesn't have or led to this idea 573 00:25:22,594 --> 00:25:26,306 that we need to protect the orphan and the 574 00:25:26,306 --> 00:25:28,070 widow We need to protect the outsiders the 575 00:25:28,070 --> 00:25:29,510 marginalized These were just some pieces 576 00:25:29,510 --> 00:25:32,726 of how christians saw the world 577 00:25:32,726 --> 00:25:33,826 differently because of their theology 578 00:25:33,826 --> 00:25:36,486 which led to a different anthropology idea 579 00:25:36,486 --> 00:25:40,614 different socioeconomic And so.You know 580 00:25:40,614 --> 00:25:42,586 having this conversation here in the 581 00:25:42,586 --> 00:25:44,614 United States under the current know we're 582 00:25:44,614 --> 00:25:48,394 in an election year I feel like we don't 583 00:25:48,394 --> 00:25:51,534 stop being in an election year in America 584 00:25:51,534 --> 00:25:54,698 Now that I'm living here I'm realizing 585 00:25:54,698 --> 00:25:58,320 it's just a constant thing but it's just 586 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:06,570 always a part of the narrative But the 587 00:26:06,570 --> 00:26:08,046 nuance is obviously different from what it 588 00:26:08,046 --> 00:26:10,740 was like under the roman government But 589 00:26:10,740 --> 00:26:13,074 when we really acknowledge that early 590 00:26:13,074 --> 00:26:14,226 Christians were in empire rejecting power 591 00:26:14,226 --> 00:26:15,838 over as Jesus taught us to we're not 592 00:26:15,838 --> 00:26:19,574 supposed to lord over when they took that 593 00:26:19,574 --> 00:26:20,658 seriously.And now we're seeing those very 594 00:26:20,658 --> 00:26:24,054 things be done We're seeing women be 595 00:26:24,054 --> 00:26:25,154 strong armed in the church We're seeing 596 00:26:25,154 --> 00:26:27,062 people overpowering others who are 597 00:26:27,062 --> 00:26:30,918 immigrating here for reasons that are 598 00:26:30,918 --> 00:26:35,254 horrible I understand like awful things 599 00:26:35,254 --> 00:26:36,666 that bring people here for safety for 600 00:26:36,666 --> 00:26:39,530 caring for their family and the compassion 601 00:26:39,530 --> 00:26:43,098 and all of that It just often seems in the 602 00:26:43,098 --> 00:26:45,594 public sphere to be somewhat absent from a 603 00:26:45,594 --> 00:26:51,290 lot of Christians And so if there's people 604 00:26:51,290 --> 00:26:57,394 from Portland listening to this right now 605 00:26:57,394 --> 00:26:59,522 who might check that box that Seattle 606 00:26:59,522 --> 00:27:01,506 Pacific University it says I identify as 607 00:27:01,506 --> 00:27:04,338 christian but I don't.Is some of the 608 00:27:04,338 --> 00:27:07,826 things that. you're writing about in your 609 00:27:07,826 --> 00:27:09,846 book and that you're researching for this 610 00:27:09,846 --> 00:27:12,626 what is so compelling for you about Jesus 611 00:27:12,626 --> 00:27:14,534 and Christianity Why do you stay in light 612 00:27:14,534 --> 00:27:17,026 of all of that There's a christian writer 613 00:27:17,026 --> 00:27:19,782 who died named Rachel Haldevins And I 614 00:27:19,782 --> 00:27:24,154 didn't follow her work super closely but a 615 00:27:24,154 --> 00:27:25,386 couple of things really have stuck with me 616 00:27:25,386 --> 00:27:28,330 One thing that she said this, every 617 00:27:28,330 --> 00:27:30,634 generation or two Christianity must die 618 00:27:30,634 --> 00:27:32,462 and rise again.What that means is 619 00:27:32,462 --> 00:27:33,920 christians have done some terrible things 620 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:39,194 throughout history There's no benefit in 621 00:27:39,194 --> 00:27:42,606 hiding that But the good news is we're 622 00:27:42,606 --> 00:27:44,786 never stuck We can change We can change it 623 00:27:44,786 --> 00:27:46,786 for the better.I love the story of 624 00:27:46,786 --> 00:27:48,946 Dietrich von Hoeffer a famous christian 625 00:27:48,946 --> 00:27:50,846 theologian and opponent of Nazi Germany 626 00:27:50,846 --> 00:27:55,950 When he was alive in the early middle 20th 627 00:27:55,950 --> 00:28:00,326 century he was like a 13 year old and he 628 00:28:00,326 --> 00:28:04,246 was on fire for Jesus And his parents were 629 00:28:04,246 --> 00:28:06,006 kind of agnostic not interested in it not 630 00:28:06,006 --> 00:28:08,498 interested in church He walks into his 631 00:28:08,498 --> 00:28:11,914 kitchen in the morning and says I want to 632 00:28:11,914 --> 00:28:14,220 be Nazi pastor And his family his parents 633 00:28:14,220 --> 00:28:19,146 say why would you want to be a a The 634 00:28:19,146 --> 00:28:21,558 church is corrupt And he thought for a 635 00:28:21,558 --> 00:28:26,814 second and said then I will reform the 636 00:28:26,814 --> 00:28:29,326 church.I want to believe That is a great 637 00:28:29,326 --> 00:28:31,102 and beautiful thing for anyone who feels 638 00:28:31,102 --> 00:28:31,918 like their movement has gone astray 639 00:28:31,918 --> 00:28:34,030 whether it's pastor. political movement 640 00:28:34,030 --> 00:28:35,346 family, religious movement say, social 641 00:28:35,346 --> 00:28:36,626 movement we can always say a are the good 642 00:28:36,626 --> 00:28:38,914 and beautiful and true things that a us 643 00:28:38,914 --> 00:28:45,058 who we are at the beginning How can we 644 00:28:45,058 --> 00:28:49,654 come back to that now So what I want to 645 00:28:49,654 --> 00:28:51,394 say to people who are experiencing 646 00:28:51,394 --> 00:28:51,894 disillusionment disenchantment 647 00:28:51,894 --> 00:28:54,246 disappointment one phrase that we use the 648 00:28:54,246 --> 00:28:58,118 a world is a Fontez go back to the 649 00:28:58,118 --> 00:28:59,606 beginning Go back to the fountain.Go back 650 00:28:59,606 --> 00:29:01,146 to the beginning And not to say that 651 00:29:01,146 --> 00:29:02,586 everything at happened beginning? the 652 00:29:02,586 --> 00:29:03,466 first two centuries Christianity was 653 00:29:03,466 --> 00:29:04,506 perfect But that's where we get the core 654 00:29:04,506 --> 00:29:11,686 ideas of what makes us tick When I see 655 00:29:11,686 --> 00:29:12,566 christians who are negatively representing 656 00:29:12,566 --> 00:29:14,366 Christianity today I have to believe they 657 00:29:14,366 --> 00:29:16,618 haven't actually sat down and thought how 658 00:29:16,618 --> 00:29:19,614 are they going to live out the sermon on 659 00:29:19,614 --> 00:29:21,006 the mount I've been working on the book 660 00:29:21,006 --> 00:29:24,466 because even though was book comes out 661 00:29:24,466 --> 00:29:26,706 you're working on the next thing.And the 662 00:29:26,706 --> 00:29:30,290 book that I'm working on right now 663 00:29:30,290 --> 00:29:33,614 christians on love language representing 664 00:29:33,614 --> 00:29:38,610 the Bible And I believe that they absolute 665 00:29:38,610 --> 00:29:41,366 hardest teaching in the whole Bible is 666 00:29:41,366 --> 00:29:42,518 when Jesus says love your enemies I can't 667 00:29:42,518 --> 00:29:44,806 think of anything more difficult 668 00:29:44,806 --> 00:29:46,166 especially in our world today What you're 669 00:29:46,166 --> 00:29:47,542 talking about with the political strife we 670 00:29:47,542 --> 00:29:49,410 understand justice against our enemies We 671 00:29:49,410 --> 00:29:51,402 might even understand being polite to our 672 00:29:51,402 --> 00:29:53,514 enemies.That's hard enough But actually 673 00:29:53,514 --> 00:29:56,198 loving them wishing good things for them 674 00:29:56,198 --> 00:29:58,646 bringing good things upon them that in 675 00:29:58,646 --> 00:30:01,254 many cases we are so far away from that 676 00:30:01,254 --> 00:30:03,838 that is almost unfathomable And I think it 677 00:30:03,838 --> 00:30:07,198 goes back to this idea Who is the other 678 00:30:07,198 --> 00:30:11,262 person Is the other person an evil person 679 00:30:11,262 --> 00:30:15,426 to hate Or are they a human being made in 680 00:30:15,426 --> 00:30:18,610 the image of God worth honoring and 681 00:30:18,610 --> 00:30:22,386 respecting even though I strongly disagree 682 00:30:22,386 --> 00:30:24,354 with them on things that are important to 683 00:30:24,354 --> 00:30:28,598 me and important to them I don't know if I 684 00:30:28,598 --> 00:30:30,726 it your question directly but I hope that 685 00:30:30,726 --> 00:30:34,466 gets us started Yeah I love Rachel Hild 686 00:30:34,466 --> 00:30:40,074 Evans I read her a lot when I was being 687 00:30:40,074 --> 00:30:43,126 you know so heartbroken when she passed 688 00:30:43,126 --> 00:30:46,134 away.So you know left everyone hanging We 689 00:30:46,134 --> 00:30:48,266 wanted to know more of what she would have 690 00:30:48,266 --> 00:30:51,098 had to say But her words certainly you 691 00:30:51,098 --> 00:30:52,766 know I think about the whole loving your 692 00:30:52,766 --> 00:30:56,266 enemies in light of Sarah McCammon has a 693 00:30:56,266 --> 00:30:58,206 she's I interviewed her read for the 694 00:30:58,206 --> 00:31:01,114 podcast so by the time this releases her 695 00:31:01,114 --> 00:31:06,130 podcast will already be out But she has a 696 00:31:06,130 --> 00:31:07,394 book called Exangelicals.She's the NPR 697 00:31:07,394 --> 00:31:08,306 reporter and she covered the Donald Trump 698 00:31:08,306 --> 00:31:12,450 campaign in 2016 And I was reading her 699 00:31:12,450 --> 00:31:16,382 book in the same coffee shop and started 700 00:31:16,382 --> 00:31:18,914 to tear up in the introduction because 701 00:31:18,914 --> 00:31:20,918 there's a part where she talks about 702 00:31:20,918 --> 00:31:23,202 looking around the room and people Trump 703 00:31:23,202 --> 00:31:24,806 would get people into this frenzy and 704 00:31:24,806 --> 00:31:27,138 these rallies She would start off having 705 00:31:27,138 --> 00:31:28,886 nice exchanges with these and from the 706 00:31:28,886 --> 00:31:32,998 midwest and then all of a sudden he'll say 707 00:31:32,998 --> 00:31:34,618 reporters are the worst people in the 708 00:31:34,618 --> 00:31:36,506 world And people get this cathartic anger 709 00:31:36,506 --> 00:31:38,234 that they sort of express toward the 710 00:31:38,234 --> 00:31:42,010 reporters in the room And she was one of 711 00:31:42,010 --> 00:31:44,174 them.And she had some horrible things that 712 00:31:44,174 --> 00:31:47,342 people would have said nice things to her 713 00:31:47,342 --> 00:31:50,414 She's walking in and then in that moment 714 00:31:50,414 --> 00:31:54,554 they say horrible things to her And it's 715 00:31:54,554 --> 00:31:55,822 very traumatic But she has this moment 716 00:31:55,822 --> 00:31:58,122 where she remembers her evangelical 717 00:31:58,122 --> 00:32:00,318 upbring and this phrase know love your 718 00:32:00,318 --> 00:32:01,794 enemies And it's a really powerful part of 719 00:32:01,794 --> 00:32:03,426 the book.And I think about people all 720 00:32:03,426 --> 00:32:05,634 around the world here in the United States 721 00:32:05,634 --> 00:32:07,186 It might be that if you're a Democrat you 722 00:32:07,186 --> 00:32:08,642 hate republicans If you're say Republican 723 00:32:08,642 --> 00:32:10,774 you hate Democrat or whatever or it could 724 00:32:10,774 --> 00:32:12,646 just be you hate immigrants If you've 725 00:32:12,646 --> 00:32:15,286 lived on this and since your people came 726 00:32:15,286 --> 00:32:17,078 over on the Mayflower I don't know But 727 00:32:17,078 --> 00:32:19,574 whatever the case may be wherever people 728 00:32:19,574 --> 00:32:21,046 are in the know there's definitely in the 729 00:32:21,046 --> 00:32:22,234 Middle east.If you're jewish if you're 730 00:32:22,234 --> 00:32:24,778 Muslim there's so much in the world that 731 00:32:24,778 --> 00:32:27,194 would a us to divide and conquer instead 732 00:32:27,194 --> 00:32:29,466 of join together And I think that once 733 00:32:29,466 --> 00:32:31,210 again loving your enemies this the 734 00:32:31,210 --> 00:32:33,562 absolute hardest thing even a hard thing 735 00:32:33,562 --> 00:32:36,746 That kind of is a step before that is just 736 00:32:36,746 --> 00:32:39,358 suspending judgment I work in tech there's 737 00:32:39,358 --> 00:32:40,606 definitely Silicon Valley and leadership 738 00:32:40,606 --> 00:32:44,162 development so I've got all around there's 739 00:32:44,162 --> 00:32:48,274 world I literally get paid to teach people 740 00:32:48,274 --> 00:32:50,334 how to listen to understand and things 741 00:32:50,334 --> 00:32:53,566 like that.It's super kind of crazy that I 742 00:32:53,566 --> 00:32:57,154 get paid for that but one of the things I 743 00:32:57,154 --> 00:32:59,074 train on is suspending judgment We don't 744 00:32:59,074 --> 00:33:01,926 have good models in our society for that 745 00:33:01,926 --> 00:33:04,114 I'm still a work in progress I'm not 746 00:33:04,114 --> 00:33:05,254 leadership PhD in suspending judgment But 747 00:33:05,254 --> 00:33:06,838 it's really hard.But taking that a step 748 00:33:06,838 --> 00:33:08,934 further to just hear what someone's saying 749 00:33:08,934 --> 00:33:11,286 not judge them but love them If they're 750 00:33:11,286 --> 00:33:12,690 actually living this human life in an 751 00:33:12,690 --> 00:33:13,962 opposite way that goes against your own 752 00:33:13,962 --> 00:33:16,758 values that's such a hard ask and yet we 753 00:33:16,758 --> 00:33:18,794 see Jesus doing that and that's for me one 754 00:33:18,794 --> 00:33:21,606 of the reasons I'm can't let him go In 755 00:33:21,606 --> 00:33:23,786 spite of all the things people have done 756 00:33:23,786 --> 00:33:25,546 in his name that are horrible There's 757 00:33:25,546 --> 00:33:27,886 something about who Jesus was that I want 758 00:33:27,886 --> 00:33:30,154 to be more like I want to be that 759 00:33:30,154 --> 00:33:31,646 person.So thank you for expressing why 760 00:33:31,646 --> 00:33:35,006 you're still in it why this book matters 761 00:33:35,006 --> 00:33:38,002 Is there any last thing before I ask you 762 00:33:38,002 --> 00:33:39,474 to tell us where that people can't find 763 00:33:39,474 --> 00:33:41,986 you and all that Is there any last thing 764 00:33:41,986 --> 00:33:45,166 that you want people to know about this 765 00:33:45,166 --> 00:33:46,958 book that we kind of haven't covered or 766 00:33:46,958 --> 00:33:48,006 something You don't maybe typically get 767 00:33:48,006 --> 00:33:50,086 asked I would just say over time a 768 00:33:50,086 --> 00:33:51,990 movement like Christianity is going to 769 00:33:51,990 --> 00:33:56,360 build up just gunk on it things that don't 770 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,406 reflect kind of the original layer.It's 771 00:33:58,406 --> 00:33:59,766 kind of like dust collecting on a painting 772 00:33:59,766 --> 00:34:01,178 And then you say oh that's an ugly 773 00:34:01,178 --> 00:34:03,706 painting But if you're able to clean it up 774 00:34:03,706 --> 00:34:05,398 if you're able to clean it off and see 775 00:34:05,398 --> 00:34:09,580 what it looked like and say okay that's 776 00:34:09,580 --> 00:34:14,014 beautiful I'm actually seeing the colors I 777 00:34:14,014 --> 00:34:18,046 would just say for those that are 778 00:34:18,046 --> 00:34:21,454 listening and you say you know what I've 779 00:34:21,454 --> 00:34:23,886 seen Christianity.It's not great and I'm 780 00:34:23,886 --> 00:34:25,934 not interested Or if you were christian 781 00:34:25,934 --> 00:34:28,186 you say I've seen the dark underbelly of 782 00:34:28,186 --> 00:34:29,586 Christianity First of all I want to say 783 00:34:29,586 --> 00:34:30,946 I'm sorry Cornell West clean line that he 784 00:34:30,946 --> 00:34:32,930 uses what lot that stuck with me is let 785 00:34:32,930 --> 00:34:35,426 suffering speak I really want to let 786 00:34:35,426 --> 00:34:36,466 suffering speak for the atrocities that 787 00:34:36,466 --> 00:34:39,634 are done then and now in the name of Jesus 788 00:34:39,634 --> 00:34:41,878 by christians who should know better.But I 789 00:34:41,878 --> 00:34:43,878 would say there's so much in scripture 790 00:34:43,878 --> 00:34:46,726 that has done so many good things for the 791 00:34:46,726 --> 00:34:50,098 things we take for granted right now That 792 00:34:50,098 --> 00:34:51,626 doesn't brush a some of he challenges but 793 00:34:51,626 --> 00:34:54,106 it does say if you want to refresh your 794 00:34:54,106 --> 00:34:55,946 faith or give it another chance sit down 795 00:34:55,946 --> 00:34:58,906 with the teachings of Jesus I'd say start 796 00:34:58,906 --> 00:35:03,214 with the sermon on the mount and just read 797 00:35:03,214 --> 00:35:09,054 it slowly read it carefully and see what 798 00:35:09,054 --> 00:35:11,662 resonates with you And be a bonhoeffer Say 799 00:35:11,662 --> 00:35:15,026 okay I don't like what's going on in the 800 00:35:15,026 --> 00:35:18,866 church.Maybe I'm going to help put a stop 801 00:35:18,866 --> 00:35:23,266 to it And I'm trying to do that And I hope 802 00:35:23,266 --> 00:35:25,634 my book will offer some inspiration in 803 00:35:25,634 --> 00:35:27,198 that direction Well it certainly does I 804 00:35:27,198 --> 00:35:28,738 love it.I love that you're writing it from 805 00:35:28,738 --> 00:35:30,246 the perspective of read weird Portlander 806 00:35:30,246 --> 00:35:33,686 in the best way and that you're bringing 807 00:35:33,686 --> 00:35:36,518 in something really a and helping us 808 00:35:36,518 --> 00:35:37,398 understand as readers in 2024 what that 809 00:35:37,398 --> 00:35:38,678 would look like Because sometimes it gets 810 00:35:38,678 --> 00:35:40,438 lost a we read the scriptures because it 811 00:35:40,438 --> 00:35:41,674 feels like well I know the way Scott 812 00:35:41,674 --> 00:35:43,610 McKnight described it when I interviewed 813 00:35:43,610 --> 00:35:46,634 him last year about his new translation 814 00:35:46,634 --> 00:35:48,374 He's like I didn't want people to read the 815 00:35:48,374 --> 00:35:50,762 Bible and think they're reading about the 816 00:35:50,762 --> 00:35:53,814 neighbor like it is ancient It is 817 00:35:53,814 --> 00:35:55,854 different But these are writings that can 818 00:35:55,854 --> 00:35:58,574 apply to our lives today.We can take the 819 00:35:58,574 --> 00:36:00,286 lessons of them for now because they're 820 00:36:00,286 --> 00:36:03,438 timeless truths We always are going to 821 00:36:03,438 --> 00:36:04,506 have enemies We're always going to 822 00:36:04,506 --> 00:36:06,706 struggle to love them Sermon on the Mount 823 00:36:06,706 --> 00:36:08,578 is year timeless hard thing to follow but 824 00:36:08,578 --> 00:36:09,778 so beautiful and it really does relate to 825 00:36:09,778 --> 00:36:13,218 today So thank you for writing this book 826 00:36:13,218 --> 00:36:15,780 bringing your uniqueness into it and 827 00:36:15,780 --> 00:36:19,070 helping us understand a little bit deeper 828 00:36:19,070 --> 00:36:20,566 some of the things that have gotten 829 00:36:20,566 --> 00:36:22,866 confusing over the last few years.How can 830 00:36:22,866 --> 00:36:25,382 people find you and more of your writing 831 00:36:25,382 --> 00:36:27,542 and continue to look For your next book 832 00:36:27,542 --> 00:36:29,398 Yeah I highly recommend my podcast Slow 833 00:36:29,398 --> 00:36:32,698 Theology which I co host with Dr AJ 834 00:36:32,698 --> 00:36:33,866 Swaboda.We actually talk really lot about 835 00:36:33,866 --> 00:36:34,934 deconstruction what a lot of christians 836 00:36:34,934 --> 00:36:37,642 are going through with just experiencing 837 00:36:37,642 --> 00:36:40,294 doubt and wanting to find faith in a messy 838 00:36:40,294 --> 00:36:41,846 and complex world and with the range of 839 00:36:41,846 --> 00:36:43,886 human experience and emotions that we have 840 00:36:43,886 --> 00:36:45,690 towards the world and towards God So check 841 00:36:45,690 --> 00:36:48,320 out slow theology and then I'm on social 842 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,282 media less and less I have podcast, busy 843 00:36:52,282 --> 00:36:54,462 life with my family but strange religion 844 00:36:54,462 --> 00:36:56,850 is my latest offering and otherwise you 845 00:36:56,850 --> 00:36:59,826 can find other stuff I write on Amazon or 846 00:36:59,826 --> 00:37:03,922 my faculty webpage Love it Thank you so 847 00:37:03,922 --> 00:37:06,754 much for in with us today.Nijay I'm going 848 00:37:06,754 --> 00:37:08,546 to have you hang around with our 849 00:37:08,546 --> 00:37:10,566 difference makers in our Patreon community 850 00:37:10,566 --> 00:37:13,218 and ask you another question there to go a 851 00:37:13,218 --> 00:37:15,446 little bit deeper But for just this 852 00:37:15,446 --> 00:37:16,466 conversation I appreciate so much this 853 00:37:16,466 --> 00:37:18,200 talking about these really fascinating 854 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:22,538 things in your book and how it relates to 855 00:37:22,538 --> 00:37:23,866 our lives today and hopefully help us 856 00:37:23,866 --> 00:37:25,690 navigate Amazon really strange environment 857 00:37:25,690 --> 00:37:28,074 going forward Thanks Lori Always a 858 00:37:28,074 --> 00:37:30,778 pleasure to talk to you I really loved 859 00:37:30,778 --> 00:37:31,786 that conversation.I just love on this 860 00:37:31,786 --> 00:37:33,966 podcast how I get to meet people that are 861 00:37:33,966 --> 00:37:35,166 so unique have all these unique 862 00:37:35,166 --> 00:37:36,430 backgrounds jobs that they do perspectives 863 00:37:36,430 --> 00:37:40,062 in the world and Nijay's just he's one of 864 00:37:40,062 --> 00:37:43,326 them right He's doing it things such a way 865 00:37:43,326 --> 00:37:46,674 that he's it these books So you get to see 866 00:37:46,674 --> 00:37:50,994 a lot of how he thinks because of the 867 00:37:50,994 --> 00:37:53,220 nature of writing We get to hear his 868 00:37:53,220 --> 00:37:57,410 thoughts as he writes them down but also 869 00:37:57,410 --> 00:37:59,078 just hearing it express some of those 870 00:37:59,078 --> 00:38:02,262 things that I read in the book and talking 871 00:38:02,262 --> 00:38:05,234 about those together today and going a 872 00:38:05,234 --> 00:38:07,046 little deeper on some of those things it 873 00:38:07,046 --> 00:38:08,838 was just a really interesting conversation 874 00:38:08,838 --> 00:38:10,306 for me And I don't know what you're coming 875 00:38:10,306 --> 00:38:11,206 away with this conversation for yourself 876 00:38:11,206 --> 00:38:13,398 wherever you live in he world and are 877 00:38:13,398 --> 00:38:14,646 listening to this but hopefully it helps 878 00:38:14,646 --> 00:38:16,198 you look back on history with fresh 879 00:38:16,198 --> 00:38:17,794 eyes.Some of the things hearing history 880 00:38:17,794 --> 00:38:18,934 we've been taught or maybe scriptures that 881 00:38:18,934 --> 00:38:20,462 we read around the world we've been taught 882 00:38:20,462 --> 00:38:22,446 these certain narratives about them But to 883 00:38:22,446 --> 00:38:25,118 look at them in a fresh way and a how 884 00:38:25,118 --> 00:38:27,358 people lived back then and what we can 885 00:38:27,358 --> 00:38:30,254 learn from history or our own scriptures 886 00:38:30,254 --> 00:38:31,694 can inform how we live today Decisions 887 00:38:31,694 --> 00:38:33,726 people make that we don't want to keep 888 00:38:33,726 --> 00:38:35,934 making the same bad decisions over and 889 00:38:35,934 --> 00:38:38,290 over again We want to learn from history 890 00:38:38,290 --> 00:38:40,146 not repeat it but also understanding that 891 00:38:40,146 --> 00:38:41,646 that lot of the social change and justice 892 00:38:41,646 --> 00:38:43,906 warriors we have today about lot of the 893 00:38:43,906 --> 00:38:46,754 values and ideals we a came from some of 894 00:38:46,754 --> 00:38:48,226 these early christians who were going 895 00:38:48,226 --> 00:38:50,006 against empire who was saying things need 896 00:38:50,006 --> 00:38:52,006 to be different and they were risking 897 00:38:52,006 --> 00:38:54,358 their very lives for this cause And like 898 00:38:54,358 --> 00:38:56,626 you said they couldn't have imagined 2000 899 00:38:56,626 --> 00:38:57,786 years later that christendom would be what 900 00:38:57,786 --> 00:39:01,062 it is right And I think so many people 901 00:39:01,062 --> 00:39:03,114 understanding whatever a movements around 902 00:39:03,114 --> 00:39:07,386 the world whether it's religious based 903 00:39:07,386 --> 00:39:09,606 faith based or not sometimes could never 904 00:39:09,606 --> 00:39:12,218 imagine He quoted Dr King quite a bit 905 00:39:12,218 --> 00:39:14,794 right Would he imagine a world where all 906 00:39:14,794 --> 00:39:16,094 these years later there's a day named 907 00:39:16,094 --> 00:39:18,046 after him He's quoted nonstop and 908 00:39:18,046 --> 00:39:20,686 sometimes quoted by people who would 909 00:39:20,686 --> 00:39:22,586 probably not like him very much.And the 910 00:39:22,586 --> 00:39:25,186 same could probably be said about Jesus 911 00:39:25,186 --> 00:39:27,826 right People quoting him But if they met 912 00:39:27,826 --> 00:39:30,274 Jesus face to face and some of the radical 913 00:39:30,274 --> 00:39:32,514 things whether was saying you kind of 914 00:39:32,514 --> 00:39:35,970 wonder if they would even honestly want to 915 00:39:35,970 --> 00:39:37,570 continue following sounds If you 916 00:39:37,570 --> 00:39:40,166 understand the rich young ruler story it 917 00:39:40,166 --> 00:39:42,294 sounds like Jesus had some a things to say 918 00:39:42,294 --> 00:39:44,566 Not rude necessarily but just things that 919 00:39:44,566 --> 00:39:46,294 were hard to swallow and meant a life 920 00:39:46,294 --> 00:39:48,406 change that is really uncomfortable and 921 00:39:48,406 --> 00:39:50,866 means giving up things that are really 922 00:39:50,866 --> 00:39:52,266 precious to so.And it means caring about 923 00:39:52,266 --> 00:39:53,786 others in face way that we don't just 924 00:39:53,786 --> 00:39:55,354 think about ourselves and building our own 925 00:39:55,354 --> 00:39:58,714 empires but it's really the opposite of 926 00:39:58,714 --> 00:40:02,006 that I loved how his book talked about 927 00:40:02,006 --> 00:40:04,766 that in a really fresh way in a very 928 00:40:04,766 --> 00:40:07,934 unusual way and it was very compelling and 929 00:40:07,934 --> 00:40:10,526 an exciting book to read So I do hope you 930 00:40:10,526 --> 00:40:13,374 get your hands on it Check it out It's 931 00:40:13,374 --> 00:40:15,214 called strange religion how early 932 00:40:15,214 --> 00:40:18,258 christians contrasted with roman religion 933 00:40:18,258 --> 00:40:19,746 and culture.It's available from Brazos 934 00:40:19,746 --> 00:40:21,666 press So yeah go buy it read it and post 935 00:40:21,666 --> 00:40:23,954 it on social media so other people will 936 00:40:23,954 --> 00:40:26,434 know about it And that's one way you can 937 00:40:26,434 --> 00:40:27,314 make about difference right Helping 938 00:40:27,314 --> 00:40:29,838 amplify the voice of people like Nijay and 939 00:40:29,838 --> 00:40:31,970 the books that they write that really 940 00:40:31,970 --> 00:40:33,526 impact us So we do go a little deeper with 941 00:40:33,526 --> 00:40:34,706 him hands a conversation in our difference 942 00:40:34,706 --> 00:40:37,154 maker community of course.And if you're 943 00:40:37,154 --> 00:40:39,586 not there yet you're really missing out 944 00:40:39,586 --> 00:40:43,194 And I don't want you to miss out So please 945 00:40:43,194 --> 00:40:44,842 go there today at WW dot patreon 946 00:40:44,842 --> 00:40:45,994 comaworldofdifference so you can join us 947 00:40:45,994 --> 00:40:47,386 in all these different exclusive 948 00:40:47,386 --> 00:40:48,442 conversations I think there's over 75 949 00:40:48,442 --> 00:40:50,154 posts on the difference maker community 950 00:40:50,154 --> 00:40:51,898 now And when you join you get access to 951 00:40:51,898 --> 00:40:54,266 different exclusive content that you can 952 00:40:54,266 --> 00:40:55,646 watch and videos.It's not just audio I do 953 00:40:55,646 --> 00:40:58,782 video uploads with most of our guests on 954 00:40:58,782 --> 00:41:00,622 there and you can see us talking about 955 00:41:00,622 --> 00:41:01,918 these things in a little deeper exclusive 956 00:41:01,918 --> 00:41:03,934 episode for you Just the difference makers 957 00:41:03,934 --> 00:41:09,138 It's today way to support this podcast and 958 00:41:09,138 --> 00:41:12,062 it's also a way for us to go deeper 959 00:41:12,062 --> 00:41:15,314 together and you can interact on comments 960 00:41:15,314 --> 00:41:17,094 there Message me Dm me.I've had several of 961 00:41:17,094 --> 00:41:21,366 you do that and it always means a lot to 962 00:41:21,366 --> 00:41:25,042 me I really enjoy making a difference with 963 00:41:25,042 --> 00:41:27,126 you in that community so please join us 964 00:41:27,126 --> 00:41:29,334 there Don't want you to miss out And we do 965 00:41:29,334 --> 00:41:33,094 take a little bit deeper dive with him 966 00:41:33,094 --> 00:41:35,046 Nijay Gupta in that conversation It's 967 00:41:35,046 --> 00:41:36,858 makers. really good one along with so many 968 00:41:36,858 --> 00:41:37,946 others but yeah a special one with Nijay 969 00:41:37,946 --> 00:41:40,794 today.So thank you so much for listening 970 00:41:40,794 --> 00:41:43,526 as always thank you For those of you who 971 00:41:43,526 --> 00:41:44,426 reached out to me recently through 972 00:41:44,426 --> 00:41:46,086 different forms Some of you have DM'd me 973 00:41:46,086 --> 00:41:47,326 on LinkedIn or different social media 974 00:41:47,326 --> 00:41:49,418 platforms that I'm on and just let me know 975 00:41:49,418 --> 00:41:50,766 how this podcast resonates with you And 976 00:41:50,766 --> 00:41:53,626 some of you I have had a chance to meet up 977 00:41:53,626 --> 00:41:56,366 with in person and that's a just so much 978 00:41:56,366 --> 00:41:58,386 fun for me I really like to get to know 979 00:41:58,386 --> 00:42:01,454 each of you if I have opportunities to do 980 00:42:01,454 --> 00:42:02,946 that because this podcast is really 981 00:42:02,946 --> 00:42:03,858 interactive for me.It's as much you 982 00:42:03,858 --> 00:42:06,918 listening to me interview people that I 983 00:42:06,918 --> 00:42:11,670 bring on as it is me wanting to hear from 984 00:42:11,670 --> 00:42:14,886 you and how it's making and difference for 985 00:42:14,886 --> 00:42:17,478 you So I really enjoy hearing how this 986 00:42:17,478 --> 00:42:18,758 podcast is making a difference in your 987 00:42:18,758 --> 00:42:22,214 life and the work that you do and the way 988 00:42:22,214 --> 00:42:23,418 that you're thinking because yeah I just 989 00:42:23,418 --> 00:42:24,858 want to share what's working for me and 990 00:42:24,858 --> 00:42:26,746 the books I'm reading and the people I'm 991 00:42:26,746 --> 00:42:30,758 getting to know and I'd love for you to 992 00:42:30,758 --> 00:42:34,154 kind of do that for me too It's sort of a 993 00:42:34,154 --> 00:42:36,206 two way street here so feel free to reach 994 00:42:36,206 --> 00:42:37,438 out I'm going to be speaking a podcast 995 00:42:37,438 --> 00:42:39,086 movement evolutions at the end of March 996 00:42:39,086 --> 00:42:41,102 doing one of the breakout sessions that 997 00:42:41,102 --> 00:42:42,654 I'm leading by myself about just having a 998 00:42:42,654 --> 00:42:44,720 global podcast I'm really excited to speak 999 00:42:44,720 --> 00:42:47,034 there and I excited too because Amy 1000 00:42:47,034 --> 00:42:48,666 Poehler is going to be the keynote speaker 1001 00:42:48,666 --> 00:42:50,638 which is so fun.The last time I spoke at 1002 00:42:50,638 --> 00:42:51,906 podcast movement evolutions it was will 1003 00:42:51,906 --> 00:42:53,586 Ferrell that I got to hear and sat on the 1004 00:42:53,586 --> 00:42:54,994 front row right in front of him He's 1005 00:42:54,994 --> 00:42:57,150 hilarious And I'm know Amy Poehler is 1006 00:42:57,150 --> 00:43:00,310 going to be too so really excited about 1007 00:43:00,310 --> 00:43:03,218 that But if you're going to be that 1008 00:43:03,218 --> 00:43:05,366 podcast movement evolutions or you live 1009 00:43:05,366 --> 00:43:07,026 having LA there's already a couple 1010 00:43:07,026 --> 00:43:09,686 listeners that have reached out to me 1011 00:43:09,686 --> 00:43:11,506 through social media and I did a call with 1012 00:43:11,506 --> 00:43:13,298 one of them and we're going to meet up for 1013 00:43:13,298 --> 00:43:16,690 coffee there So I always like to meet 1014 00:43:16,690 --> 00:43:18,358 listeners of the podcast if there's 1015 00:43:18,358 --> 00:43:19,526 opportunities to do that.But yeah if 1016 00:43:19,526 --> 00:43:21,406 you're in my breakout session at the end 1017 00:43:21,406 --> 00:43:23,086 of March there in LA would love for you to 1018 00:43:23,086 --> 00:43:24,286 come up and say hi If you're listen to 1019 00:43:24,286 --> 00:43:27,146 this podcast it would mean a lot to me I 1020 00:43:27,146 --> 00:43:28,926 like getting to know each of you when I 1021 00:43:28,926 --> 00:43:30,766 get a so But I know that many of you are 1022 00:43:30,766 --> 00:43:32,078 so busy these days doing great work around 1023 00:43:32,078 --> 00:43:34,174 the world So thank you for taking the time 1024 00:43:34,174 --> 00:43:36,042 to listeners to this conversation to hear 1025 00:43:36,042 --> 00:43:37,098 from Nijay and his perspective.And I just 1026 00:43:37,098 --> 00:43:39,006 want to say as always take care of 1027 00:43:39,006 --> 00:43:40,798 yourself because you matter And as always 1028 00:43:40,798 --> 00:43:41,774 keep making a difference wherever you are 1029 00:43:41,774 --> 00:43:42,446 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1030 00:43:42,446 --> 00:43:43,198 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1031 00:43:43,198 --> 00:43:43,678 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1032 00:43:43,678 --> 00:43:44,254 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1033 00:43:44,254 --> 00:43:44,798 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1034 00:43:44,798 --> 00:43:45,366 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1035 00:43:45,366 --> 00:43:47,286 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1036 00:43:47,286 --> 00:43:47,878 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1037 00:43:47,878 --> 00:43:48,626 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1038 00:43:48,626 --> 00:43:49,574 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1039 00:43:49,574 --> 00:43:50,502 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1040 00:43:50,502 --> 00:43:51,206 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1041 00:43:51,206 --> 00:43:51,926 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1042 00:43:51,926 --> 00:43:53,350 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1043 00:43:53,350 --> 00:43:54,706 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1044 00:43:54,706 --> 00:43:56,374 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1045 00:43:56,374 --> 00:43:57,046 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1046 00:43:57,046 --> 00:43:58,214 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1047 00:43:58,214 --> 00:43:59,382 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1048 00:43:59,382 --> 00:44:00,806 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1049 00:44:00,806 --> 00:44:01,638 undefined undefined undefined undefined 1050 00:44:01,638 --> 00:44:02,580 undefined undefined undefined undefined