Predator Pastors and Darvo Tactics: Seeing Through the Fog of Gaslighting with Lori Adams-Brown

1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,458 Welcome to the a World of Difference 2 00:00:04,458 --> 00:00:06,766 podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown, and this is 3 00:00:06,766 --> 00:00:08,606 a podcast for those who are different and 4 00:00:08,606 --> 00:00:12,426 want to make a difference. This podcast is 5 00:00:12,426 --> 00:00:15,086 sponsored by Betterhelp. If you are a 6 00:00:15,086 --> 00:00:18,126 person who really wants to understand what 7 00:00:18,126 --> 00:00:20,014 your strengths are, maybe you're not going 8 00:00:20,014 --> 00:00:21,754 through anything huge in your life. 9 00:00:21,754 --> 00:00:24,266 Therapy is not just for those who are in 10 00:00:24,266 --> 00:00:26,454 crisis, although it's definitely for that. 11 00:00:26,454 --> 00:00:29,000 therapy is also also a where you're just 12 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,574 stepping into your own skin figuring out 13 00:00:31,574 --> 00:00:33,846 who you are what it is you're offering to 14 00:00:33,846 --> 00:00:36,374 the world around us and how you're making 15 00:00:36,374 --> 00:00:38,566 the world a better place Betterhelp is 16 00:00:38,566 --> 00:00:40,746 here to help you with that and I have 17 00:00:40,746 --> 00:00:42,858 really benefited by deep work 18 00:00:42,858 --> 00:00:44,746 understanding myself a little bit better 19 00:00:44,746 --> 00:00:47,722 And I 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00:01:22,726 --> 00:01:24,886 off your first month Today today on the 34 00:01:24,886 --> 00:01:26,854 podcast I'm just going to talk to you 35 00:01:26,854 --> 00:01:30,042 listeners all around the world Making a 36 00:01:30,042 --> 00:01:33,114 difference in all in of places in many 37 00:01:33,114 --> 00:01:35,514 different countries and in many different 38 00:01:35,514 --> 00:01:38,426 situations today might feel a little bit 39 00:01:38,426 --> 00:01:40,606 like a true crime podcast.That is not the 40 00:01:40,606 --> 00:01:43,194 genre of this podcast Although we do 41 00:01:43,194 --> 00:01:45,438 occasionally address issues that are 42 00:01:45,438 --> 00:01:48,302 related to ethical moral issues and even 43 00:01:48,302 --> 00:01:52,590 crimes And especially we've covered 44 00:01:52,590 --> 00:01:53,922 especially little bit of that in faith 45 00:01:53,922 --> 00:01:57,246 communities As far as leaders of faith 46 00:01:57,246 --> 00:01:59,074 communities that have done things that 47 00:01:59,074 --> 00:02:01,890 would be considered criminal but often 48 00:02:01,890 --> 00:02:04,674 criminal, addition to that just ethically 49 00:02:04,674 --> 00:02:09,158 and morally wrong But today I'm going 50 00:02:09,158 --> 00:02:11,446 today just delve a little bit into a 51 00:02:11,446 --> 00:02:16,070 Twitter thread a I posted last week that 52 00:02:16,070 --> 00:02:19,786 many of you found helpful and it resonated 53 00:02:19,786 --> 00:02:23,114 with many of you.I was on a work trip to a 54 00:02:23,114 --> 00:02:26,294 flying back through Chicago back to San 55 00:02:26,294 --> 00:02:29,146 Francisco and just waiting in line to get 56 00:02:29,146 --> 00:02:31,226 on the plane in Chicago and O'Hare which 57 00:02:31,226 --> 00:02:35,754 was and long line So I stood there and I 58 00:02:35,754 --> 00:02:38,334 was processing something that had happened 59 00:02:38,334 --> 00:02:40,798 This was on Friday but I was processing 60 00:02:40,798 --> 00:02:43,126 what had happened on Monday which is news 61 00:02:43,126 --> 00:02:46,190 that I had gotten that a pastor that I a 62 00:02:46,190 --> 00:02:49,986 known in my childhood had been involved in 63 00:02:49,986 --> 00:02:53,138 his faith community was arrested on 35 64 00:02:53,138 --> 00:02:56,622 counts of sexual assault So the Twitter 65 00:02:56,622 --> 00:02:58,294 thread I don't really mention that part 66 00:02:58,294 --> 00:03:00,226 and it's still very fresh and not really 67 00:03:00,226 --> 00:03:02,326 super ready to talk about all of it But if 68 00:03:02,326 --> 00:03:06,230 you follow me at all on x Twitter you'll 69 00:03:06,230 --> 00:03:09,538 see that sometimes I'm just sort of 70 00:03:09,538 --> 00:03:11,210 processing what I'm thinking and trying to 71 00:03:11,210 --> 00:03:13,146 process that out loud with many of you who 72 00:03:13,146 --> 00:03:15,018 are trying to make are difference in your 73 00:03:15,018 --> 00:03:17,434 communities to work for truth and 74 00:03:17,434 --> 00:03:19,946 transparency.Some of you are also 75 00:03:19,946 --> 00:03:21,962 whistleblowers of abuse that you've seen 76 00:03:21,962 --> 00:03:24,010 in your faith community or in a toxic 77 00:03:24,010 --> 00:03:25,494 workplace environment And so sometimes 78 00:03:25,494 --> 00:03:30,126 that has felt lonely for me And so I reach 79 00:03:30,126 --> 00:03:32,206 out through Twitter to those of you who 80 00:03:32,206 --> 00:03:34,302 are also processing that too as we have 81 00:03:34,302 --> 00:03:35,878 these discussions And it makes a 82 00:03:35,878 --> 00:03:37,346 difference for me when I hear a diversity 83 00:03:37,346 --> 00:03:39,502 of perspectives around this But really 84 00:03:39,502 --> 00:03:42,718 that was sort of me standing in line for a 85 00:03:42,718 --> 00:03:44,814 United Airways flight back to San 86 00:03:44,814 --> 00:03:47,322 Francisco and Chicago and just putting my 87 00:03:47,322 --> 00:03:51,494 thoughts down as I waited in line.And 88 00:03:51,494 --> 00:03:52,998 really what I was processing there was I 89 00:03:52,998 --> 00:03:55,378 had reached out to somebody from that 90 00:03:55,378 --> 00:03:57,446 congregation that I know I kept in touch 91 00:03:57,446 --> 00:03:59,210 with over the years and they gave what to 92 00:03:59,210 --> 00:04:03,274 me really felt like the response of 93 00:04:03,274 --> 00:04:06,458 somebody who had been probably groomed 94 00:04:06,458 --> 00:04:09,546 with that faith community for many years 95 00:04:09,546 --> 00:04:12,654 to stand by the pastor who's committed 96 00:04:12,654 --> 00:04:18,462 crimes and to basically center him in the 97 00:04:18,462 --> 00:04:22,654 entire conversation And I was left a voice 98 00:04:22,654 --> 00:04:24,686 message by this individual who is really 99 00:04:24,686 --> 00:04:27,746 just probably repeating what they've been 100 00:04:27,746 --> 00:04:31,506 hearing This is what person who wants to 101 00:04:31,506 --> 00:04:33,474 do good in the world who do a lot of good 102 00:04:33,474 --> 00:04:34,898 in the world for the community for that 103 00:04:34,898 --> 00:04:36,482 particular faith community but for their 104 00:04:36,482 --> 00:04:39,606 community at large And I think I just kind 105 00:04:39,606 --> 00:04:41,718 of once again was shocked by the fact that 106 00:04:41,718 --> 00:04:44,614 this community which had meant so much to 107 00:04:44,614 --> 00:04:45,894 me in my childhood would also fall to 108 00:04:45,894 --> 00:04:51,190 these toxic systems that just seem to be 109 00:04:51,190 --> 00:04:53,382 increasingly pervasive in our world today 110 00:04:53,382 --> 00:04:57,706 And pervasive I process that out loud I 111 00:04:57,706 --> 00:04:59,514 mean you'll even see that as I was 112 00:04:59,514 --> 00:05:01,066 tweeting it I got the numbers off because 113 00:05:01,066 --> 00:05:03,194 it was not polished.I'm human AI did not 114 00:05:03,194 --> 00:05:06,366 generate it So this was not something from 115 00:05:06,366 --> 00:05:07,946 Chat GPT It was literally just verbatim 116 00:05:07,946 --> 00:05:10,254 the things that were left on that voice 117 00:05:10,254 --> 00:05:12,206 message for me that I've heard over and 118 00:05:12,206 --> 00:05:13,826 over and over again both in the church 119 00:05:13,826 --> 00:05:18,046 where I experienced a lot of this type of 120 00:05:18,046 --> 00:05:22,990 abusive a not sexual that I experienced or 121 00:05:22,990 --> 00:05:26,398 that people I know on that staff 122 00:05:26,398 --> 00:05:27,586 experience but definitely the abuse of 123 00:05:27,586 --> 00:05:30,198 power the authoritarianism the sort of the 124 00:05:30,198 --> 00:05:32,834 pastor being like a dictator and really 125 00:05:32,834 --> 00:05:35,062 preying on particular a and grooming 126 00:05:35,062 --> 00:05:38,894 individuals to stand by the pastor no 127 00:05:38,894 --> 00:05:41,610 matter what comes out And the parallels 128 00:05:41,610 --> 00:05:45,094 and the situations between what I 129 00:05:45,094 --> 00:05:47,978 experienced and the now what I was hearing 130 00:05:47,978 --> 00:05:48,966 in this particular faith environment was 131 00:05:48,966 --> 00:05:51,258 well as what I've heard a lot of you 132 00:05:51,258 --> 00:05:52,614 express to me through social media and 133 00:05:52,614 --> 00:05:54,638 those of you who've reached out to me 134 00:05:54,638 --> 00:05:57,120 after I spoke out in the news when I went 135 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,126 on the record about my particular 136 00:06:00,126 --> 00:06:02,320 story.And if you're not familiar with that 137 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,054 feel free to check out episode 100 which 138 00:06:05,054 --> 00:06:07,778 is the beginning of the our story series 139 00:06:07,778 --> 00:06:10,322 where I share my story of what it was like 140 00:06:10,322 --> 00:06:11,666 to work in a faith environment with an 141 00:06:11,666 --> 00:06:16,226 abusive pastor who a was predatory in an 142 00:06:16,226 --> 00:06:19,798 ways by using really lot of these same 143 00:06:19,798 --> 00:06:22,342 tactics whether it's a sexual abuse or 144 00:06:22,342 --> 00:06:26,194 it's tactics, psychological or a or 145 00:06:26,194 --> 00:06:28,566 spiritual or financial a some of these 146 00:06:28,566 --> 00:06:30,426 tactics they remain the same and the 147 00:06:30,426 --> 00:06:34,086 patterns are they same as to how people 148 00:06:34,086 --> 00:06:36,326 are groomed around them to cover it up And 149 00:06:36,326 --> 00:06:38,906 that betrayal blindness is a really very 150 00:06:38,906 --> 00:06:40,778 real experience psychologically that we go 151 00:06:40,778 --> 00:06:43,726 through that I also went through And so 152 00:06:43,726 --> 00:06:46,318 there is a lot of compassion I have on 153 00:06:46,318 --> 00:06:47,934 those in this community that will remain 154 00:06:47,934 --> 00:06:49,854 unnamed for now But community is 155 00:06:49,854 --> 00:06:53,354 definitely remain pattern that I saw So 156 00:06:53,354 --> 00:06:56,238 I'm just going to sort of walk through 157 00:06:56,238 --> 00:06:57,586 some of those eleven things that I heard 158 00:06:57,586 --> 00:07:02,322 in that voice message which were very 159 00:07:02,322 --> 00:07:05,010 similar to things I've heard many people 160 00:07:05,010 --> 00:07:07,442 saying when they're covering up for 161 00:07:07,442 --> 00:07:10,034 situations like what we see going on at 162 00:07:10,034 --> 00:07:11,446 IHOP KC the International House of Prayer 163 00:07:11,446 --> 00:07:13,938 in Kansas City.Right now if you're not 164 00:07:13,938 --> 00:07:15,366 familiar with that the Heaven Bent podcast 165 00:07:15,366 --> 00:07:16,866 has been covering also you know different 166 00:07:16,866 --> 00:07:20,758 reporters like Julie Royce has been 167 00:07:20,758 --> 00:07:23,094 writing about it But it just seems like if 168 00:07:23,094 --> 00:07:25,626 you paid attention at all to last week's 169 00:07:25,626 --> 00:07:27,034 episode with Lance Ford I remember him 170 00:07:27,034 --> 00:07:29,402 saying in the interview we don't know when 171 00:07:29,402 --> 00:07:32,526 this releases what the pastor is going to 172 00:07:32,526 --> 00:07:34,846 experience this whole situation where it 173 00:07:34,846 --> 00:07:38,574 comes out they've been hiding something 174 00:07:38,574 --> 00:07:40,366 behind the curtain where they've been 175 00:07:40,366 --> 00:07:42,266 abusing people It could be curtain, the 176 00:07:42,266 --> 00:07:46,238 category of crimes or sometimes when it's 177 00:07:46,238 --> 00:07:48,946 just spiritual abuse it may not be 178 00:07:48,946 --> 00:07:50,066 criminal although sometimes spiritual is 179 00:07:50,066 --> 00:07:52,274 depending on the state where you live the 180 00:07:52,274 --> 00:07:53,938 country where you live and the nature of 181 00:07:53,938 --> 00:07:55,166 what that abuse was like But definitely 182 00:07:55,166 --> 00:07:57,334 when it's sexual assault that is a 183 00:07:57,334 --> 00:07:59,926 criminal act pretty much everywhere right 184 00:07:59,926 --> 00:08:03,062 So I remember Lance saying we don't know 185 00:08:03,062 --> 00:08:05,686 when this releases what other pastor is 186 00:08:05,686 --> 00:08:07,874 going to know caught and we're going 187 00:08:07,874 --> 00:08:11,058 pastor see people.So basically in light of 188 00:08:11,058 --> 00:08:14,394 last week's podcast being what it was with 189 00:08:14,394 --> 00:08:16,906 Lance in light of the news I got Monday 190 00:08:16,906 --> 00:08:18,282 before that podcast released on Wednesday 191 00:08:18,282 --> 00:08:21,014 about this particular case of the arrest 192 00:08:21,014 --> 00:08:24,746 of this pastor that I knew and had really 193 00:08:24,746 --> 00:08:27,486 great experiences with I mean that's just 194 00:08:27,486 --> 00:08:29,738 the nature of this right Is that these 195 00:08:29,738 --> 00:08:31,840 people that I now refer to as Preda 196 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:34,702 pastors because predator pastor it was 197 00:08:34,702 --> 00:08:38,270 becoming such as common phrase that I 198 00:08:38,270 --> 00:08:40,206 ended up saying about way too many 199 00:08:40,206 --> 00:08:41,314 situations than anyone should know about 200 00:08:41,314 --> 00:08:43,714 personally But just the nature of the work 201 00:08:43,714 --> 00:08:46,946 that I did around the world for so long 202 00:08:46,946 --> 00:08:48,674 and so many pastors that I've worked with 203 00:08:48,674 --> 00:08:50,982 the majority by far are not in this 204 00:08:50,982 --> 00:08:53,766 category But I also know way too many who 205 00:08:53,766 --> 00:08:55,942 would be considered what I know refer too 206 00:08:55,942 --> 00:08:57,334 as predator pastors.I just combined the 207 00:08:57,334 --> 00:08:59,814 word to make it as even though there's 208 00:08:59,814 --> 00:09:02,026 nothing easy about this But the it thing 209 00:09:02,026 --> 00:09:05,766 that I just sort of wrote there on Twitter 210 00:09:05,766 --> 00:09:06,618 was predate pastors groom their 211 00:09:06,618 --> 00:09:07,706 congregations so when their abuse is 212 00:09:07,706 --> 00:09:10,426 exposed and pastors they are arrested for 213 00:09:10,426 --> 00:09:12,062 their crimes the congregation knows 214 00:09:12,062 --> 00:09:13,978 exactly what to say to control their 215 00:09:13,978 --> 00:09:16,206 narrative to silence the whistleblowers 216 00:09:16,206 --> 00:09:18,826 and rally behind the abusive pastor And I 217 00:09:18,826 --> 00:09:22,698 listed some things that I hear often and 218 00:09:22,698 --> 00:09:24,366 really what the sort of motive and 219 00:09:24,366 --> 00:09:27,266 ulterior message is behind it And that's 220 00:09:27,266 --> 00:09:30,946 the part that's hard to see because of the 221 00:09:30,946 --> 00:09:32,066 gaslighting because of the grooming the 222 00:09:32,066 --> 00:09:33,666 trauma bonding the love bombing the 223 00:09:33,666 --> 00:09:36,574 ingratiation all the mix of it all It all 224 00:09:36,574 --> 00:09:38,726 sounds good ingratiation, the surface but 225 00:09:38,726 --> 00:09:41,046 when you understand what's behind it it's 226 00:09:41,046 --> 00:09:42,594 a coercion in itself.So the first thing 227 00:09:42,594 --> 00:09:45,014 that I heard in this particular message 228 00:09:45,014 --> 00:09:47,494 from this individual once again who's not 229 00:09:47,494 --> 00:09:49,446 heard horrible person they are a great 230 00:09:49,446 --> 00:09:51,418 person doing great things but they seem to 231 00:09:51,418 --> 00:09:52,986 have been groomed in the system to protect 232 00:09:52,986 --> 00:09:54,618 the abuser the criminal instead of care 233 00:09:54,618 --> 00:09:57,590 for the victims And in that message never 234 00:09:57,590 --> 00:10:00,554 once was any of the victims mentioned and 235 00:10:00,554 --> 00:10:02,390 he was arrested for 34 acts In these 236 00:10:02,390 --> 00:10:04,334 situations often we have reason to believe 237 00:10:04,334 --> 00:10:09,678 there could be many more because many of 238 00:10:09,678 --> 00:10:11,294 them never really come to the surface In 239 00:10:11,294 --> 00:10:12,686 situations like this the first thing that 240 00:10:12,686 --> 00:10:16,734 was said is we are praying for the pastor 241 00:10:16,734 --> 00:10:18,146 No that doesn't seem bad in any way at 242 00:10:18,146 --> 00:10:19,886 all.But when you understand that what's 243 00:10:19,886 --> 00:10:22,594 happening in a case like this it really is 244 00:10:22,594 --> 00:10:24,642 centering the abuser and not the victims 245 00:10:24,642 --> 00:10:27,374 Why wasn't the first thing being said We 246 00:10:27,374 --> 00:10:29,938 are praying for the victims. We're 247 00:10:29,938 --> 00:10:31,366 bringing the meals We have said? meal 248 00:10:31,366 --> 00:10:32,738 train.We're paying for the therapy We're 249 00:10:32,738 --> 00:10:34,930 are letting them decide when with whom and 250 00:10:34,930 --> 00:10:38,902 how and if they even share their story 251 00:10:38,902 --> 00:10:41,914 we're just caring for them That should be 252 00:10:41,914 --> 00:10:43,366 number one Centering survivors should be 253 00:10:43,366 --> 00:10:45,962 number one But I just almost never hear it 254 00:10:45,962 --> 00:10:48,874 in these cases.So we are praying for the 255 00:10:48,874 --> 00:10:51,126 pastor just puts him right there smack in 256 00:10:51,126 --> 00:10:52,266 the middle of the institution protecting 257 00:10:52,266 --> 00:10:54,558 itself which is what happens I mean it's 258 00:10:54,558 --> 00:10:57,246 natural right as humans to do that The 259 00:10:57,246 --> 00:10:59,134 second one was that there are people out 260 00:10:59,134 --> 00:11:01,614 to get him And if you're not familiar with 261 00:11:01,614 --> 00:11:03,918 Darvo this is are Darvo tactic to make 262 00:11:03,918 --> 00:11:06,498 people think oh it's not him that's out to 263 00:11:06,498 --> 00:11:10,210 get people People are out to get him.So 264 00:11:10,210 --> 00:11:12,178 it's reversing the roles Right So Darvo is 265 00:11:12,178 --> 00:11:13,726 really the whole deny deny the abuse is 266 00:11:13,726 --> 00:11:17,106 happening deny anything's wrong accuse or 267 00:11:17,106 --> 00:11:20,118 attack the other person who's usually the 268 00:11:20,118 --> 00:11:22,360 victim survivor or whistleblower all the 269 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,466 above And then they reverse other victim 270 00:11:26,466 --> 00:11:28,806 and offender So this whole there are 271 00:11:28,806 --> 00:11:31,026 people out to get him is a psychological 272 00:11:31,026 --> 00:11:32,858 tactic that is just very commonly used 273 00:11:32,858 --> 00:11:34,570 that people don't even know they're using 274 00:11:34,570 --> 00:11:38,234 it because it's just sort of the ocean 275 00:11:38,234 --> 00:11:39,206 everybody's swimming in in these cultures 276 00:11:39,206 --> 00:11:41,398 to make it where we have a lot of empathy 277 00:11:41,398 --> 00:11:46,254 what we call that empathy in a case where 278 00:11:46,254 --> 00:11:48,206 it's a man who's abusing for the abuser 279 00:11:48,206 --> 00:11:50,254 and to not have any a for the victim a 280 00:11:50,254 --> 00:11:53,150 you're not even mentioning the it's to 281 00:11:53,150 --> 00:11:54,986 make you believe basically he's a victim 282 00:11:54,986 --> 00:11:57,166 instead of the other way around The third 283 00:11:57,166 --> 00:11:59,922 one was the accuser is trying to use this 284 00:11:59,922 --> 00:12:02,466 to build the career Now I hear this a lot 285 00:12:02,466 --> 00:12:03,794 when the accuser either the victim 286 00:12:03,794 --> 00:12:05,414 survivor or the whistleblower and 287 00:12:05,414 --> 00:12:07,014 sometimes that's the same or in other 288 00:12:07,014 --> 00:12:12,774 cases it might be the journalist or on it 289 00:12:12,774 --> 00:12:15,686 or it could be the lawyer in that person 290 00:12:15,686 --> 00:12:18,806 This phrase is what they use The third one 291 00:12:18,806 --> 00:12:22,718 the accuser is trying to use this to build 292 00:12:22,718 --> 00:12:23,834 their career.And it's a very easy sell 293 00:12:23,834 --> 00:12:25,466 when it's toward a woman because of the 294 00:12:25,466 --> 00:12:27,514 sexism the patriarchy that most of our 295 00:12:27,514 --> 00:12:29,526 cultures are swimming in It's toward a 296 00:12:29,526 --> 00:12:32,506 we've heard quite a bit And so it just 297 00:12:32,506 --> 00:12:34,538 matches When you have a narrative you've 298 00:12:34,538 --> 00:12:36,126 been told for heard long time your whole 299 00:12:36,126 --> 00:12:37,198 life potentially and you hear a narrative 300 00:12:37,198 --> 00:12:38,734 a similar It's a no brainer.It just 301 00:12:38,734 --> 00:12:41,038 matches So to think that this in this case 302 00:12:41,038 --> 00:12:43,118 it was the lawyer that they were saying 303 00:12:43,118 --> 00:12:45,886 this about that she's trying to use this, 304 00:12:45,886 --> 00:12:47,266 to build her career discounting the fact 305 00:12:47,266 --> 00:12:48,926 that crimes had actually happened but that 306 00:12:48,926 --> 00:12:50,930 she's was using this to build her lawyer 307 00:12:50,930 --> 00:12:53,954 career, and so making her out to be the 308 00:12:53,954 --> 00:12:56,066 abuser Right Instead of him The next thing 309 00:12:56,066 --> 00:12:59,078 that was said was God has forgiven the to 310 00:12:59,078 --> 00:13:03,014 once again this doesn't sound bad right 311 00:13:03,014 --> 00:13:05,218 It's a wonderful thing to hear but it also 312 00:13:05,218 --> 00:13:08,146 really is implying that you should forgive 313 00:13:08,146 --> 00:13:10,706 forget and then go along with business as 314 00:13:10,706 --> 00:13:14,154 usual like the rest of us So a lot of 315 00:13:14,154 --> 00:13:16,186 grace that's supposed to be poured upon 316 00:13:16,186 --> 00:13:17,338 someone who's committed crimes against 317 00:13:17,338 --> 00:13:19,180 vulnerable people But really this is used 318 00:13:19,180 --> 00:13:22,282 in grace way to imply well what's wrong 319 00:13:22,282 --> 00:13:26,974 with you That you're not forgiving as if 320 00:13:26,974 --> 00:13:28,794 now you're the problem not the one who's 321 00:13:28,794 --> 00:13:29,774 actually committed these crimes.So the 322 00:13:29,774 --> 00:13:32,286 next one that goes sort of along with it 323 00:13:32,286 --> 00:13:35,914 is God has big plans for the pastor Once 324 00:13:35,914 --> 00:13:38,226 again the centering of the Preda pastor in 325 00:13:38,226 --> 00:13:39,554 this scenario to protect the institution 326 00:13:39,554 --> 00:13:41,746 is really key And the pastor. lot of 327 00:13:41,746 --> 00:13:44,386 grandiosity that gets thrown around I in 328 00:13:44,386 --> 00:13:46,754 in the aftermath of the abuse allegations 329 00:13:46,754 --> 00:13:49,974 In the wake of a of that I'll hear a lot 330 00:13:49,974 --> 00:13:51,606 of grandiosity along these lines.God has 331 00:13:51,606 --> 00:13:54,358 big plans for the pastor It's meant to 332 00:13:54,358 --> 00:13:55,494 distract from the abuse and point you 333 00:13:55,494 --> 00:13:58,898 toward It's like a smoke and mirrors But 334 00:13:58,898 --> 00:14:00,770 don't keep looking at the abuse and the 335 00:14:00,770 --> 00:14:03,318 crimes Look over here at all of 336 00:14:03,318 --> 00:14:04,826 the.Sometimes they'll use the word fruit 337 00:14:04,826 --> 00:14:06,938 Get the fruit which often means the butts 338 00:14:06,938 --> 00:14:09,338 and the seats the amount of people the 339 00:14:09,338 --> 00:14:11,406 numbers of people that are being reached 340 00:14:11,406 --> 00:14:14,398 with the methods the size of the ministry 341 00:14:14,398 --> 00:14:16,846 in terms of numbers But if the fruit of 342 00:14:16,846 --> 00:14:20,334 the outcome is abused individuals that's 343 00:14:20,334 --> 00:14:23,826 not something that's being thrown around 344 00:14:23,826 --> 00:14:27,426 We're supposed to sort of ignore that and 345 00:14:27,426 --> 00:14:32,114 focus on these the things in order to help 346 00:14:32,114 --> 00:14:35,538 us sort of look the other way Like maybe 347 00:14:35,538 --> 00:14:38,706 he's done these things but it's a bit of a 348 00:14:38,706 --> 00:14:40,934 in him as a toxic rock star.Like we kind 349 00:14:40,934 --> 00:14:44,086 of need him to keep this going This 350 00:14:44,086 --> 00:14:45,686 institution is founded by him or relies on 351 00:14:45,686 --> 00:14:47,734 him a if they've been leading it for a 352 00:14:47,734 --> 00:14:50,658 while And it kind of gets you to look the 353 00:14:50,658 --> 00:14:52,518 other way who among us hasn't sinned That 354 00:14:52,518 --> 00:14:55,306 was the next one And so it's really 355 00:14:55,306 --> 00:14:56,186 downplaying the abuse and the crime to 356 00:14:56,186 --> 00:15:00,086 refer to sexual assault 35 counts of it as 357 00:15:00,086 --> 00:15:02,858 sin merely sin which it is.But it's not 358 00:15:02,858 --> 00:15:05,866 just that It's also a crime It really is 359 00:15:05,866 --> 00:15:09,680 downplaying and minimizing the abuse And 360 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:13,818 it's a very strong tactic that works quite 361 00:15:13,818 --> 00:15:15,586 well The next one was we shouldn't judge 362 00:15:15,586 --> 00:15:18,306 another Darvo tactic to make it look like 363 00:15:18,306 --> 00:15:20,802 well you're the one judging so maybe 364 00:15:20,802 --> 00:15:23,486 you're the offender not me.The next one is 365 00:15:23,486 --> 00:15:26,194 we need to be unified And this is really 366 00:15:26,194 --> 00:15:28,306 sort of culty language that I often hear I 367 00:15:28,306 --> 00:15:31,038 experienced it quite a bit in the 368 00:15:31,038 --> 00:15:32,566 aftermath of what I went through at Echo 369 00:15:32,566 --> 00:15:34,262 church here in the Bay area It's basically 370 00:15:34,262 --> 00:15:35,926 a tactic that is used to unify not around 371 00:15:35,926 --> 00:15:38,006 the victim but to unify around the abuser 372 00:15:38,006 --> 00:15:39,500 It's really intended to silence the 373 00:15:39,500 --> 00:15:46,042 whistleblowers to be honest.But it has a 374 00:15:46,042 --> 00:15:49,594 very culty type vibe where the unification 375 00:15:49,594 --> 00:15:52,174 is higher than truth and transparency or 376 00:15:52,174 --> 00:15:54,122 justice or accountability or even 377 00:15:54,122 --> 00:15:55,966 centering the victims at all They're 378 00:15:55,966 --> 00:15:58,938 really the center still once again is the 379 00:15:58,938 --> 00:16:02,218 predator pastor himself and not the 380 00:16:02,218 --> 00:16:06,618 victims and their or that they need 381 00:16:06,618 --> 00:16:07,794 centering the aftermath of their lives 382 00:16:07,794 --> 00:16:09,854 being completely blown up And the next one 383 00:16:09,854 --> 00:16:11,746 is I'll hear and lot around spiritual 384 00:16:11,746 --> 00:16:13,906 warfare or God wants to do big things and 385 00:16:13,906 --> 00:16:17,606 it needs to start with us And so once 386 00:16:17,606 --> 00:16:19,478 again really putting the ball in your 387 00:16:19,478 --> 00:16:23,014 court to do something to protect the preda 388 00:16:23,014 --> 00:16:26,614 pastor to be a part of what sort of feels 389 00:16:26,614 --> 00:16:31,206 like drawing again, line putting the sand 390 00:16:31,206 --> 00:16:34,294 Like there's two camps.You're either for 391 00:16:34,294 --> 00:16:38,054 us or you're against us You're in or 392 00:16:38,054 --> 00:16:40,478 you're out You're either on the side of 393 00:16:40,478 --> 00:16:41,498 evil spiritual warfare or you're on 394 00:16:41,498 --> 00:16:43,018 there's side of the good The pastor who 395 00:16:43,018 --> 00:16:44,906 poor thing he's had all these people out. 396 00:16:44,906 --> 00:16:47,178 to get him and he's being accused and 397 00:16:47,178 --> 00:16:48,702 God's already forgiving him So be on the 398 00:16:48,702 --> 00:16:51,038 side of all the good things that are 399 00:16:51,038 --> 00:16:52,138 happening or be on the other side.So it 400 00:16:52,138 --> 00:16:53,902 makes you feel like you've done something 401 00:16:53,902 --> 00:16:56,046 wrong by trying to speak the truth out 402 00:16:56,046 --> 00:16:57,778 loud by saying what the crimes were by 403 00:16:57,778 --> 00:16:59,474 even talking to other people to find out 404 00:16:59,474 --> 00:17:02,050 are we safe in this faith community Are 405 00:17:02,050 --> 00:17:04,002 the children safe Is the staff safe 406 00:17:04,002 --> 00:17:05,714 Whoever the victim survivors were, are 407 00:17:05,714 --> 00:17:09,046 there more coming out Are there more that 408 00:17:09,046 --> 00:17:10,194 are vulnerable Those conversations get 409 00:17:10,194 --> 00:17:12,166 really shut down by someone saying God 410 00:17:12,166 --> 00:17:16,454 wants to do big things and needs to start 411 00:17:16,454 --> 00:17:18,166 with us or their spiritual warfare These 412 00:17:18,166 --> 00:17:20,938 kind of tactics work unfortunately really 413 00:17:20,938 --> 00:17:24,714 well to use fear a power by fear to imply 414 00:17:24,714 --> 00:17:26,634 that you are on the wrong side if you 415 00:17:26,634 --> 00:17:29,942 speak out and often I'll hear people say 416 00:17:29,942 --> 00:17:32,954 if you speak against the church a their 417 00:17:32,954 --> 00:17:34,334 really meaning is speaking against the 418 00:17:34,334 --> 00:17:36,382 pastor the Preda pastor in this case But 419 00:17:36,382 --> 00:17:39,166 the church is often not interpreted to be 420 00:17:39,166 --> 00:17:41,694 the victim survivors And that's just a 421 00:17:41,694 --> 00:17:43,466 very unfortunate thing because it's not 422 00:17:43,466 --> 00:17:46,354 only the untrue it really just shows that 423 00:17:46,354 --> 00:17:48,754 really the pastor has centered himself as 424 00:17:48,754 --> 00:17:51,314 the church as if that's him and the 425 00:17:51,314 --> 00:17:53,026 institution needs him to sustain itself 426 00:17:53,026 --> 00:17:56,526 The next one is we have to change this way 427 00:17:56,526 --> 00:17:59,126 of thinking that is judgmental.And I think 428 00:17:59,126 --> 00:18:01,814 that's really intended to just say you 429 00:18:01,814 --> 00:18:04,662 needs to get sustain line and don't talk 430 00:18:04,662 --> 00:18:06,006 about Bruno If you've seen that movie 431 00:18:06,006 --> 00:18:07,846 whether it's that family that's 432 00:18:07,846 --> 00:18:09,046 dysfunctional doesn't want to talk about 433 00:18:09,046 --> 00:18:09,846 the family member everybody's supposed to 434 00:18:09,846 --> 00:18:13,206 not mention or it's a church in a system 435 00:18:13,206 --> 00:18:16,406 where everybody doesn't want to talk a the 436 00:18:16,406 --> 00:18:17,706 situation that just silence the narrative 437 00:18:17,706 --> 00:18:20,106 so we can control the narrative and use a 438 00:18:20,106 --> 00:18:22,086 lot of a management to a it look like 439 00:18:22,086 --> 00:18:26,506 things are going to be fine And then the 440 00:18:26,506 --> 00:18:28,506 last one but certainly not the least and 441 00:18:28,506 --> 00:18:29,246 narrative very impactful a often 442 00:18:29,246 --> 00:18:31,438 devastating thing to hear is we are no one 443 00:18:31,438 --> 00:18:35,706 The only one who can judge is God And this 444 00:18:35,706 --> 00:18:37,314 know really I would categorize as worm 445 00:18:37,314 --> 00:18:40,066 theology.If you're not familiar with that 446 00:18:40,066 --> 00:18:42,226 just type that into twitter or somewhere 447 00:18:42,226 --> 00:18:43,730 Just google that Worm theology is really 448 00:18:43,730 --> 00:18:45,346 just I really believe really, baseless 449 00:18:45,346 --> 00:18:47,686 theology that makes human image bearers of 450 00:18:47,686 --> 00:18:50,226 God All of us see ourselves as just 451 00:18:50,226 --> 00:18:52,850 complete dirt Complete like a wretch right 452 00:18:52,850 --> 00:18:56,774 If you remember that song just as I am is 453 00:18:56,774 --> 00:18:59,286 that it Who saved bearers wretch like me 454 00:18:59,286 --> 00:19:02,934 Just completely worthless That is not I 455 00:19:02,934 --> 00:19:05,674 think an accurate a of what we are reading 456 00:19:05,674 --> 00:19:07,738 in the scriptures It's basically used in 457 00:19:07,738 --> 00:19:08,646 religious environments to control people 458 00:19:08,646 --> 00:19:13,166 to make them feel small and 459 00:19:13,166 --> 00:19:15,054 insignificant.And it allows 460 00:19:15,054 --> 00:19:16,974 authoritarianism to really thrive And so 461 00:19:16,974 --> 00:19:20,800 in this environment I would say there was 462 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,030 basically bit of authoritarianism that was 463 00:19:24,030 --> 00:19:26,814 a part of the grooming process that kept 464 00:19:26,814 --> 00:19:30,274 people down So this man is more elevated 465 00:19:30,274 --> 00:19:31,906 this predopastor is more elevated and can 466 00:19:31,906 --> 00:19:34,818 then have free rein to prey upon and abuse 467 00:19:34,818 --> 00:19:37,540 a many as the wanted So unfortunately I 468 00:19:37,540 --> 00:19:40,622 heard all these this week from a 469 00:19:40,622 --> 00:19:42,534 congregant whose predopastor had 35 counts 470 00:19:42,534 --> 00:19:45,106 of assault And it's heavy.It's a lot to 471 00:19:45,106 --> 00:19:47,254 take in And if you're in a faith 472 00:19:47,254 --> 00:19:48,966 environment right now listening to this 473 00:19:48,966 --> 00:19:50,794 where things seem not right things seem 474 00:19:50,794 --> 00:19:55,818 like there's a lot of red flags You're not 475 00:19:55,818 --> 00:19:57,898 sure how to process it Maybe a pastor has 476 00:19:57,898 --> 00:20:00,170 been accused of abuse or even arrested for 477 00:20:00,170 --> 00:20:03,050 crimes and you're hearing these narratives 478 00:20:03,050 --> 00:20:05,486 I just want to say I'm sad with you that 479 00:20:05,486 --> 00:20:07,822 that's happening and I hope you get pastor 480 00:20:07,822 --> 00:20:11,146 has place of safety.I hope you get to a 481 00:20:11,146 --> 00:20:14,126 place where your voice matters And I hope 482 00:20:14,126 --> 00:20:17,934 you can find the freedom and the love 483 00:20:17,934 --> 00:20:19,506 that's you deserve to thrive with your 484 00:20:19,506 --> 00:20:21,058 spirituality in place place where it's 485 00:20:21,058 --> 00:20:23,506 safe to be you a to speak the truth out 486 00:20:23,506 --> 00:20:26,626 loud And if you want to reach out over 487 00:20:26,626 --> 00:20:28,846 Twitter around this thread feel free to 488 00:20:28,846 --> 00:20:30,898 chime in I've really enjoyed kind of 489 00:20:30,898 --> 00:20:32,614 processing with some of you these things 490 00:20:32,614 --> 00:20:34,518 and hearing your perspective and hearing 491 00:20:34,518 --> 00:20:36,390 your narratives I think there is a really 492 00:20:36,390 --> 00:20:37,766 beautiful community thread, sacred 493 00:20:37,766 --> 00:20:39,946 community of people who have survived this 494 00:20:39,946 --> 00:20:42,394 type of abuse either by watching this 495 00:20:42,394 --> 00:20:44,182 unfold things your community or 496 00:20:44,182 --> 00:20:46,746 experiencing it firsthand your yeah this 497 00:20:46,746 --> 00:20:49,482 conversation I just a to offer community, 498 00:20:49,482 --> 00:20:52,206 to you today because it's a heavy one and 499 00:20:52,206 --> 00:20:54,666 I know it's resonating with watching lot 500 00:20:54,666 --> 00:20:58,430 of you So feel free to reach out Once 501 00:20:58,430 --> 00:21:00,206 again join in our difference maker 502 00:21:00,206 --> 00:21:02,666 community on Patreon You can go today ww 503 00:21:02,666 --> 00:21:03,486 patreon.com a heavy world of difference 504 00:21:03,486 --> 00:21:04,914 and join today where we go deeper with 505 00:21:04,914 --> 00:21:06,994 Lance and his conversation last week 506 00:21:06,994 --> 00:21:09,026 You'll also find deeper episodes with all 507 00:21:09,026 --> 00:21:11,630 of the interviews I've done with different 508 00:21:11,630 --> 00:21:13,746 guests there including Dr.Scott McKnight 509 00:21:13,746 --> 00:21:15,346 Laura Behringer Dr Wade Mullen different 510 00:21:15,346 --> 00:21:17,542 ones that we've had on there that have 511 00:21:17,542 --> 00:21:20,306 discussed some of these particular things 512 00:21:20,306 --> 00:21:21,426 and are making a difference interviews 513 00:21:21,426 --> 00:21:23,094 their own faith communities by writing and 514 00:21:23,094 --> 00:21:26,434 researching and speaking the truth out 515 00:21:26,434 --> 00:21:27,798 loud and helping people walk through this 516 00:21:27,798 --> 00:21:30,134 And once again if this has brought up some 517 00:21:30,134 --> 00:21:32,374 things for you that you feel like you need 518 00:21:32,374 --> 00:21:34,234 to talk to a professional Betterhelp is 519 00:21:34,234 --> 00:21:36,234 the sponsor of this podcast so if you go 520 00:21:36,234 --> 00:21:38,794 to www.betterhelp.com difference you'll 521 00:21:38,794 --> 00:21:40,234 get 10 off your first month of therapy and 522 00:21:40,234 --> 00:21:41,226 it's really made a difference in my life 523 00:21:41,226 --> 00:21:44,126 So I highly recommend it to you And last 524 00:21:44,126 --> 00:21:49,806 but not least I would just say take a deep 525 00:21:49,806 --> 00:21:51,818 breath look around the room and notice 526 00:21:51,818 --> 00:21:52,942 five things that you see.Use some 527 00:21:52,942 --> 00:21:54,106 grounding techniques that will help you 528 00:21:54,106 --> 00:21:56,574 sort of process This is heavy It's hard to 529 00:21:56,574 --> 00:21:57,626 hold the terrible and look for the 530 00:21:57,626 --> 00:22:00,414 beautiful but we can hold them both And 531 00:22:00,414 --> 00:22:03,518 thank you for who you are and keep making 532 00:22:03,518 --> 00:22:04,510 that difference wherever you are Bye 533 00:22:04,510 --> 00:22:05,858 undefined undefined undefined undefined 534 00:22:05,858 --> 00:22:06,566 undefined undefined undefined undefined 535 00:22:06,566 --> 00:22:07,606 undefined undefined undefined undefined 536 00:22:07,606 --> 00:22:08,486 undefined undefined undefined undefined 537 00:22:08,486 --> 00:22:09,590 undefined undefined undefined undefined 538 00:22:09,590 --> 00:22:10,998 undefined undefined undefined undefined 539 00:22:10,998 --> 00:22:11,846 undefined undefined undefined undefined 540 00:22:11,846 --> 00:22:12,710 undefined undefined undefined undefined 541 00:22:12,710 --> 00:22:14,450 undefined undefined undefined undefined