Predator Pastors and Darvo Tactics: Seeing Through the Fog of Gaslighting with Lori Adams-Brown

0:00 Welcome to the a World of Difference podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown, and this is a podcast for those who are different and want to make a difference. This podcast is sponsored by Betterhelp. If you are a person who really wants to understand what your strengths are, maybe you're not going through anything huge in your life. Therapy is not just for those who are in crisis, although it's definitely for that. therapy is also also a where you're just stepping into your own skin figuring out who you are what it is you're offering to the world around us and how you're making the world a better place Betterhelp is here to help you with that and I have really benefited by deep work understanding myself a little bit better And I know many people have benefited from this resource and that's why I'm proud to say they are are sponsor of this podcast So if you are are person who could benefit from talking with a a about anything going on in your life I encourage you to to by at betterhelp And the link I'm offering you today will give you 10 off your first month.And so hopefully that'll make that'll difference in your purse and pocket and wallet and bank account So go to www.betterhelp.com to to get 10 off your first month of therapy That is www.betterhelp.com difference to get 10 off your first month Today today on the podcast I'm just going to talk to you listeners all around the world Making a

1:30 difference in all in of places in many different countries and in many different situations today might feel a little bit like a true crime podcast.That is not the genre of this podcast Although we do occasionally address issues that are related to ethical moral issues and even crimes And especially we've covered especially little bit of that in faith communities As far as leaders of faith communities that have done things that would be considered criminal but often criminal, addition to that just ethically and morally wrong But today I'm going today just delve a little bit into a Twitter thread a I posted last week that many of you found helpful and it resonated with many of you.I was on a work trip to a flying back through Chicago back to San Francisco and just waiting in line to get on the plane in Chicago and O'Hare which was and long line So I stood there and I was processing something that had happened This was on Friday but I was processing what had happened on Monday which is news that I had gotten that a pastor that I a known in my childhood had been involved in his faith community was arrested on 35 counts of sexual assault So the Twitter thread I don't really mention that part and it's still very fresh and not really

3:00 super ready to talk about all of it But if you follow me at all on x Twitter you'll see that sometimes I'm just sort of processing what I'm thinking and trying to process that out loud with many of you who are trying to make are difference in your communities to work for truth and transparency.Some of you are also whistleblowers of abuse that you've seen in your faith community or in a toxic workplace environment And so sometimes that has felt lonely for me And so I reach out through Twitter to those of you who are also processing that too as we have these discussions And it makes a difference for me when I hear a diversity of perspectives around this But really that was sort of me standing in line for a United Airways flight back to San Francisco and Chicago and just putting my thoughts down as I waited in line.And really what I was processing there was I had reached out to somebody from that congregation that I know I kept in touch with over the years and they gave what to me really felt like the response of somebody who had been probably groomed with that faith community for many years to stand by the pastor who's committed crimes and to basically center him in the entire conversation And I was left a voice message by this individual who is really just probably repeating what they've been hearing This is what person who wants to

4:31 do good in the world who do a lot of good in the world for the community for that particular faith community but for their community at large And I think I just kind of once again was shocked by the fact that this community which had meant so much to me in my childhood would also fall to these toxic systems that just seem to be increasingly pervasive in our world today And pervasive I process that out loud I mean you'll even see that as I was tweeting it I got the numbers off because it was not polished.I'm human AI did not generate it So this was not something from Chat GPT It was literally just verbatim the things that were left on that voice message for me that I've heard over and over and over again both in the church where I experienced a lot of this type of abusive a not sexual that I experienced or that people I know on that staff experience but definitely the abuse of power the authoritarianism the sort of the pastor being like a dictator and really preying on particular a and grooming individuals to stand by the pastor no matter what comes out And the parallels and the situations between what I experienced and the now what I was hearing in this particular faith environment was well as what I've heard a lot of you express to me through social media and those of you who've reached out to me after I spoke out in the news when I went on the record about my particular story.And if you're not familiar with that

6:02 feel free to check out episode 100 which is the beginning of the our story series where I share my story of what it was like to work in a faith environment with an abusive pastor who a was predatory in an ways by using really lot of these same tactics whether it's a sexual abuse or it's tactics, psychological or a or spiritual or financial a some of these tactics they remain the same and the patterns are they same as to how people are groomed around them to cover it up And that betrayal blindness is a really very real experience psychologically that we go through that I also went through And so there is a lot of compassion I have on those in this community that will remain unnamed for now But community is definitely remain pattern that I saw So I'm just going to sort of walk through some of those eleven things that I heard in that voice message which were very similar to things I've heard many people saying when they're covering up for situations like what we see going on at IHOP KC the International House of Prayer in Kansas City.Right now if you're not familiar with that the Heaven Bent podcast has been covering also you know different reporters like Julie Royce has been writing about it But it just seems like if you paid attention at all to last week's episode with Lance Ford I remember him saying in the interview we don't know when this releases what the pastor is going to

7:32 experience this whole situation where it comes out they've been hiding something behind the curtain where they've been abusing people It could be curtain, the category of crimes or sometimes when it's just spiritual abuse it may not be criminal although sometimes spiritual is depending on the state where you live the country where you live and the nature of what that abuse was like But definitely when it's sexual assault that is a criminal act pretty much everywhere right So I remember Lance saying we don't know when this releases what other pastor is going to know caught and we're going pastor see people.So basically in light of last week's podcast being what it was with Lance in light of the news I got Monday before that podcast released on Wednesday about this particular case of the arrest of this pastor that I knew and had really great experiences with I mean that's just the nature of this right Is that these people that I now refer to as Preda pastors because predator pastor it was becoming such as common phrase that I ended up saying about way too many situations than anyone should know about personally But just the nature of the work that I did around the world for so long and so many pastors that I've worked with the majority by far are not in this category But I also know way too many who would be considered what I know refer too as predator pastors.I just combined the word to make it as even though there's nothing easy about this But the it thing that I just sort of wrote there on Twitter

9:05 was predate pastors groom their congregations so when their abuse is exposed and pastors they are arrested for their crimes the congregation knows exactly what to say to control their narrative to silence the whistleblowers and rally behind the abusive pastor And I listed some things that I hear often and really what the sort of motive and ulterior message is behind it And that's the part that's hard to see because of the gaslighting because of the grooming the trauma bonding the love bombing the ingratiation all the mix of it all It all sounds good ingratiation, the surface but when you understand what's behind it it's a coercion in itself.So the first thing that I heard in this particular message from this individual once again who's not heard horrible person they are a great person doing great things but they seem to have been groomed in the system to protect the abuser the criminal instead of care for the victims And in that message never once was any of the victims mentioned and he was arrested for 34 acts In these situations often we have reason to believe there could be many more because many of them never really come to the surface In situations like this the first thing that was said is we are praying for the pastor No that doesn't seem bad in any way at all.But when you understand that what's happening in a case like this it really is centering the abuser and not the victims Why wasn't the first thing being said We are praying for the victims. We're bringing the meals We have said? meal train.We're paying for the therapy We're are letting them decide when with whom and how and if they even share their story

10:38 we're just caring for them That should be number one Centering survivors should be number one But I just almost never hear it in these cases.So we are praying for the pastor just puts him right there smack in the middle of the institution protecting itself which is what happens I mean it's natural right as humans to do that The second one was that there are people out to get him And if you're not familiar with Darvo this is are Darvo tactic to make people think oh it's not him that's out to get people People are out to get him.So it's reversing the roles Right So Darvo is really the whole deny deny the abuse is happening deny anything's wrong accuse or attack the other person who's usually the victim survivor or whistleblower all the above And then they reverse other victim and offender So this whole there are people out to get him is a psychological tactic that is just very commonly used that people don't even know they're using it because it's just sort of the ocean everybody's swimming in in these cultures to make it where we have a lot of empathy what we call that empathy in a case where it's a man who's abusing for the abuser and to not have any a for the victim a you're not even mentioning the it's to make you believe basically he's a victim instead of the other way around The third one was the accuser is trying to use this to build the career Now I hear this a lot when the accuser either the victim survivor or the whistleblower and sometimes that's the same or in other cases it might be the journalist or on it

12:12 or it could be the lawyer in that person This phrase is what they use The third one the accuser is trying to use this to build their career.And it's a very easy sell when it's toward a woman because of the sexism the patriarchy that most of our cultures are swimming in It's toward a we've heard quite a bit And so it just matches When you have a narrative you've been told for heard long time your whole life potentially and you hear a narrative a similar It's a no brainer.It just matches So to think that this in this case it was the lawyer that they were saying this about that she's trying to use this, to build her career discounting the fact that crimes had actually happened but that she's was using this to build her lawyer career, and so making her out to be the abuser Right Instead of him The next thing that was said was God has forgiven the to once again this doesn't sound bad right It's a wonderful thing to hear but it also really is implying that you should forgive forget and then go along with business as usual like the rest of us So a lot of grace that's supposed to be poured upon someone who's committed crimes against vulnerable people But really this is used in grace way to imply well what's wrong with you That you're not forgiving as if now you're the problem not the one who's actually committed these crimes.So the next one that goes sort of along with it is God has big plans for the pastor Once again the centering of the Preda pastor in this scenario to protect the institution is really key And the pastor. lot of grandiosity that gets thrown around I in

13:44 in the aftermath of the abuse allegations In the wake of a of that I'll hear a lot of grandiosity along these lines.God has big plans for the pastor It's meant to distract from the abuse and point you toward It's like a smoke and mirrors But don't keep looking at the abuse and the crimes Look over here at all of the.Sometimes they'll use the word fruit Get the fruit which often means the butts and the seats the amount of people the numbers of people that are being reached with the methods the size of the ministry in terms of numbers But if the fruit of the outcome is abused individuals that's not something that's being thrown around We're supposed to sort of ignore that and focus on these the things in order to help us sort of look the other way Like maybe he's done these things but it's a bit of a in him as a toxic rock star.Like we kind of need him to keep this going This institution is founded by him or relies on him a if they've been leading it for a while And it kind of gets you to look the other way who among us hasn't sinned That was the next one And so it's really downplaying the abuse and the crime to refer to sexual assault 35 counts of it as sin merely sin which it is.But it's not just that It's also a crime It really is downplaying and minimizing the abuse And it's a very strong tactic that works quite well The next one was we shouldn't judge

15:15 another Darvo tactic to make it look like well you're the one judging so maybe you're the offender not me.The next one is we need to be unified And this is really sort of culty language that I often hear I experienced it quite a bit in the aftermath of what I went through at Echo church here in the Bay area It's basically a tactic that is used to unify not around the victim but to unify around the abuser It's really intended to silence the whistleblowers to be honest.But it has a very culty type vibe where the unification is higher than truth and transparency or justice or accountability or even centering the victims at all They're really the center still once again is the predator pastor himself and not the victims and their or that they need centering the aftermath of their lives being completely blown up And the next one is I'll hear and lot around spiritual warfare or God wants to do big things and it needs to start with us And so once again really putting the ball in your court to do something to protect the preda pastor to be a part of what sort of feels like drawing again, line putting the sand Like there's two camps.You're either for us or you're against us You're in or you're out You're either on the side of evil spiritual warfare or you're on there's side of the good The pastor who poor thing he's had all these people out.

16:44 to get him and he's being accused and God's already forgiving him So be on the side of all the good things that are happening or be on the other side.So it makes you feel like you've done something wrong by trying to speak the truth out loud by saying what the crimes were by even talking to other people to find out are we safe in this faith community Are the children safe Is the staff safe Whoever the victim survivors were, are there more coming out Are there more that are vulnerable Those conversations get really shut down by someone saying God wants to do big things and needs to start with us or their spiritual warfare These kind of tactics work unfortunately really well to use fear a power by fear to imply that you are on the wrong side if you speak out and often I'll hear people say if you speak against the church a their really meaning is speaking against the pastor the Preda pastor in this case But the church is often not interpreted to be the victim survivors And that's just a very unfortunate thing because it's not only the untrue it really just shows that really the pastor has centered himself as the church as if that's him and the institution needs him to sustain itself The next one is we have to change this way of thinking that is judgmental.And I think that's really intended to just say you needs to get sustain line and don't talk about Bruno If you've seen that movie whether it's that family that's dysfunctional doesn't want to talk about the family member everybody's supposed to not mention or it's a church in a system where everybody doesn't want to talk a the

18:16 situation that just silence the narrative so we can control the narrative and use a lot of a management to a it look like things are going to be fine And then the last one but certainly not the least and narrative very impactful a often devastating thing to hear is we are no one The only one who can judge is God And this know really I would categorize as worm theology.If you're not familiar with that just type that into twitter or somewhere Just google that Worm theology is really just I really believe really, baseless theology that makes human image bearers of God All of us see ourselves as just complete dirt Complete like a wretch right If you remember that song just as I am is that it Who saved bearers wretch like me Just completely worthless That is not I think an accurate a of what we are reading in the scriptures It's basically used in religious environments to control people to make them feel small and insignificant.And it allows authoritarianism to really thrive And so in this environment I would say there was basically bit of authoritarianism that was a part of the grooming process that kept people down So this man is more elevated this predopastor is more elevated and can then have free rein to prey upon and abuse a many as the wanted So unfortunately I heard all these this week from a congregant whose predopastor had 35 counts of assault And it's heavy.It's a lot to take in And if you're in a faith

19:47 environment right now listening to this where things seem not right things seem like there's a lot of red flags You're not sure how to process it Maybe a pastor has been accused of abuse or even arrested for crimes and you're hearing these narratives I just want to say I'm sad with you that that's happening and I hope you get pastor has place of safety.I hope you get to a place where your voice matters And I hope you can find the freedom and the love that's you deserve to thrive with your spirituality in place place where it's safe to be you a to speak the truth out loud And if you want to reach out over Twitter around this thread feel free to chime in I've really enjoyed kind of processing with some of you these things and hearing your perspective and hearing your narratives I think there is a really beautiful community thread, sacred community of people who have survived this type of abuse either by watching this unfold things your community or experiencing it firsthand your yeah this conversation I just a to offer community, to you today because it's a heavy one and I know it's resonating with watching lot of you So feel free to reach out Once again join in our difference maker community on Patreon You can go today ww patreon.com a heavy world of difference and join today where we go deeper with Lance and his conversation last week You'll also find deeper episodes with all of the interviews I've done with different guests there including Dr.Scott McKnight Laura Behringer Dr Wade Mullen different ones that we've had on there that have

21:17 discussed some of these particular things and are making a difference interviews their own faith communities by writing and researching and speaking the truth out loud and helping people walk through this And once again if this has brought up some things for you that you feel like you need to talk to a professional Betterhelp is the sponsor of this podcast so if you go to www.betterhelp.com difference you'll get 10 off your first month of therapy and it's really made a difference in my life So I highly recommend it to you And last but not least I would just say take a deep breath look around the room and notice five things that you see.Use some grounding techniques that will help you sort of process This is heavy It's hard to hold the terrible and look for the beautiful but we can hold them both And thank you for who you are and keep making that difference wherever you are Bye undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined undefined