When Pastors Become Dictators: Inside the Leadership Industrial Complex with Lance Ford

1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,458 Welcome to the a World of Difference 2 00:00:04,458 --> 00:00:06,766 podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown, and this is 3 00:00:06,766 --> 00:00:08,606 a podcast for those who are different and 4 00:00:08,606 --> 00:00:12,426 want to make a difference. This podcast is 5 00:00:12,426 --> 00:00:15,086 sponsored by Betterhelp. 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Today on 34 00:01:25,366 --> 00:01:28,694 the podcast, we have a man who is truly 35 00:01:28,694 --> 00:01:30,982 trying to make a difference in faith 36 00:01:30,982 --> 00:01:34,698 communities in ways that are both 37 00:01:34,698 --> 00:01:36,790 difficult to navigate with a lot of 38 00:01:36,790 --> 00:01:38,298 obstacles, but he brings a lot of 39 00:01:38,298 --> 00:01:40,438 research, experience and wisdom to the 40 00:01:40,438 --> 00:01:42,234 conversation. So happy to bring onto the 41 00:01:42,234 --> 00:01:44,986 show today Lance Ford, an author of 42 00:01:44,986 --> 00:01:46,622 multiple books, but he's releasing a new 43 00:01:46,622 --> 00:01:49,758 book called the Atlas Factor, and today 44 00:01:49,758 --> 00:01:51,306 we're going to talk about this book as 45 00:01:51,306 --> 00:01:53,086 it's being released. But I just wanted to 46 00:01:53,086 --> 00:01:55,486 give you a little information about Lance 47 00:01:55,486 --> 00:01:57,346 and why he's qualified to write a book 48 00:01:57,346 --> 00:01:59,362 like this. With over three decades of 49 00:01:59,362 --> 00:02:01,358 experience as a pastor and a church 50 00:02:01,358 --> 00:02:03,582 planner, Lance has been a coach and 51 00:02:03,582 --> 00:02:05,122 consultant who has designed unique 52 00:02:05,122 --> 00:02:07,442 training systems that's currently being 53 00:02:07,442 --> 00:02:09,186 used by network seminaries and leaders 54 00:02:09,186 --> 00:02:11,234 throughout the world. But he's also 55 00:02:11,234 --> 00:02:12,674 written, you may have read some of his 56 00:02:12,674 --> 00:02:14,386 articles in Christianity Today and 57 00:02:14,386 --> 00:02:16,486 Outreach magazine relevant and others, as 58 00:02:16,486 --> 00:02:19,826 well as he co founded the centralized 59 00:02:19,826 --> 00:02:21,978 conference. His books, if you've read 60 00:02:21,978 --> 00:02:24,806 them, ones he's written in the past, are 61 00:02:24,806 --> 00:02:26,666 unleader, the Starfish and the Spirit, 62 00:02:26,666 --> 00:02:28,250 which is the first of his books that I 63 00:02:28,250 --> 00:02:30,842 read back in the day, missional 64 00:02:30,842 --> 00:02:33,774 essentials, the missional quest next door 65 00:02:33,774 --> 00:02:37,054 as it is in heaven and others. But this 66 00:02:37,054 --> 00:02:39,082 book is really important because he's 67 00:02:39,082 --> 00:02:42,190 addressing some issues in the faith 68 00:02:42,190 --> 00:02:44,830 community and especially evangelical 69 00:02:44,830 --> 00:02:47,278 spaces. And around this metaphor of the 70 00:02:47,278 --> 00:02:48,690 Atlas factor, we're going to unpack that 71 00:02:48,690 --> 00:02:51,070 together a little bit. But it's about 72 00:02:51,070 --> 00:02:53,950 shifting leadership onto the shoulders of 73 00:02:53,950 --> 00:02:57,634 Jesus and off of what we often consider a 74 00:02:57,634 --> 00:03:00,246 senior pastor, head pastor, especially at 75 00:03:00,246 --> 00:03:02,294 some of these very large churches, but 76 00:03:02,294 --> 00:03:05,314 even small churches. So I got to meet 77 00:03:05,314 --> 00:03:07,942 Lance back in Chicago when we were both 78 00:03:07,942 --> 00:03:09,954 speaking at a conference, the Restore 79 00:03:09,954 --> 00:03:13,126 conference up in Chicago in October. And I 80 00:03:13,126 --> 00:03:14,986 walked into the speaker room and he's the 81 00:03:14,986 --> 00:03:17,846 first person I met in there. And we really 82 00:03:17,846 --> 00:03:19,754 connected because of some similar spaces 83 00:03:19,754 --> 00:03:22,794 and experiences and really happy to have 84 00:03:22,794 --> 00:03:25,006 him on the show today. If you've not read 85 00:03:25,006 --> 00:03:27,134 any of his books in the past, you are 86 00:03:27,134 --> 00:03:29,418 really in for some insightful 87 00:03:29,418 --> 00:03:31,354 conversation. Because he's a big 88 00:03:31,354 --> 00:03:34,494 researcher, he reads widely, digs deep, 89 00:03:34,494 --> 00:03:36,234 and some of the things he shared at the 90 00:03:36,234 --> 00:03:38,946 Restore conference are things I still 91 00:03:38,946 --> 00:03:41,154 really have kind of mold over in my own 92 00:03:41,154 --> 00:03:43,554 mind. I know a lot of us have as to the 93 00:03:43,554 --> 00:03:45,906 things he was telling us about there and 94 00:03:45,906 --> 00:03:47,886 really have enjoyed getting an advanced 95 00:03:47,886 --> 00:03:49,638 copy of his book. My husband Jason and I 96 00:03:49,638 --> 00:03:52,354 have both been reading it, and it's so 97 00:03:52,354 --> 00:03:54,498 insightful. So happy to introduce you if 98 00:03:54,498 --> 00:03:57,078 you've not yet heard of him or allow you 99 00:03:57,078 --> 00:03:58,618 to hear this man you've been following for 100 00:03:58,618 --> 00:04:01,306 a while and reading his work. So welcome 101 00:04:01,306 --> 00:04:03,958 to the world of Difference podcast today. 102 00:04:03,958 --> 00:04:12,838 Lance Ford. Hi, Lance. I'm so excited that 103 00:04:12,838 --> 00:04:14,638 we're going to have this conversation 104 00:04:14,638 --> 00:04:17,806 today. Welcome to the podcast and thank 105 00:04:17,806 --> 00:04:20,026 you for writing this book. I know that 106 00:04:20,026 --> 00:04:21,838 you've written things in the past, but 107 00:04:21,838 --> 00:04:23,794 this is a particular book I'm very excited 108 00:04:23,794 --> 00:04:26,274 about. So thanks for showing up today. 109 00:04:26,274 --> 00:04:28,494 Well, I appreciate you having me, Laura. 110 00:04:28,494 --> 00:04:31,330 I've been looking forward to having this 111 00:04:31,330 --> 00:04:35,314 conversation. Me too. It was so great to 112 00:04:35,314 --> 00:04:37,762 meet you in person in Chicago a few months 113 00:04:37,762 --> 00:04:41,734 back in the speaker room and just to know 114 00:04:41,734 --> 00:04:43,942 some common experiences that we've had and 115 00:04:43,942 --> 00:04:45,830 some ways we're both trying to make a 116 00:04:45,830 --> 00:04:48,474 difference in faith spaces that have 117 00:04:48,474 --> 00:04:52,730 really formed us and that we care about 118 00:04:52,730 --> 00:04:55,754 getting better and doing better. And so as 119 00:04:55,754 --> 00:04:58,554 you are launching this book into the 120 00:04:58,554 --> 00:05:01,178 world, I wanted to start with just tell us 121 00:05:01,178 --> 00:05:03,126 a little bit about your background and how 122 00:05:03,126 --> 00:05:05,886 that led to this book coming forth. And as 123 00:05:05,886 --> 00:05:07,822 we say in the author community, just 124 00:05:07,822 --> 00:05:10,266 giving birth, even though you're a man, it 125 00:05:10,266 --> 00:05:12,846 feels like a new experience for you. Yeah, 126 00:05:12,846 --> 00:05:17,586 it does feel like well, I was present. 127 00:05:17,586 --> 00:05:20,654 Yeah, I was present for all three of our 128 00:05:20,654 --> 00:05:22,882 children's births. We used, and this goes 129 00:05:22,882 --> 00:05:27,366 way back because it's more commonplace now 130 00:05:27,366 --> 00:05:30,214 in the states than it was then. But 30 131 00:05:30,214 --> 00:05:33,142 something years ago, when we had all our 132 00:05:33,142 --> 00:05:36,934 three kids, we used midwives. And it was 133 00:05:36,934 --> 00:05:40,906 like a new idea, even though it's been 134 00:05:40,906 --> 00:05:43,334 going around for thousands of years. So 135 00:05:43,334 --> 00:05:45,066 everybody's like, what? You're not going 136 00:05:45,066 --> 00:05:48,714 to hospital? So I did see that, but I've 137 00:05:48,714 --> 00:05:51,066 never been one to say, we're pregnant or 138 00:05:51,066 --> 00:05:53,854 we're having a baby, because I saw what 139 00:05:53,854 --> 00:05:58,622 happened. Like, no, we're not pregnant. 140 00:05:58,622 --> 00:06:01,070 But it does feel that way with a book. So, 141 00:06:01,070 --> 00:06:06,340 yeah, I was a pastor for 20 something 142 00:06:06,340 --> 00:06:09,940 years. Kind of went that route that so 143 00:06:09,940 --> 00:06:15,442 many people do as far as was a youth 144 00:06:15,442 --> 00:06:18,950 pastor, then an associate pastor, college 145 00:06:18,950 --> 00:06:23,266 type pastor, and then end up being a 146 00:06:23,266 --> 00:06:26,626 senior guy, planted a church, and we 147 00:06:26,626 --> 00:06:28,986 planted several churches out of it. And 148 00:06:28,986 --> 00:06:32,166 this is back in the mid 90s when we 149 00:06:32,166 --> 00:06:35,658 planted a church in the northwest suburbs 150 00:06:35,658 --> 00:06:38,950 of St. Louis. And that was during a time, 151 00:06:38,950 --> 00:06:44,366 Lori, when it was the height of, I don't 152 00:06:44,366 --> 00:06:47,374 know if you're too young to remember this, 153 00:06:47,374 --> 00:06:50,078 and of course, you were living abroad, so 154 00:06:50,078 --> 00:06:51,966 I don't know how much it was affecting 155 00:06:51,966 --> 00:06:54,046 you, but it was the Seeker movement, the 156 00:06:54,046 --> 00:06:57,874 Seeker church movement. And so that in the 157 00:06:57,874 --> 00:07:02,146 mid 90s was the big rage, and I got caught 158 00:07:02,146 --> 00:07:06,200 up in that. And that was about the time 159 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,754 when what I called the leadership 160 00:07:08,754 --> 00:07:10,966 industrial complex was really starting to 161 00:07:10,966 --> 00:07:15,042 hit its stride. And so everything in the 162 00:07:15,042 --> 00:07:18,346 church was starting to become for pastors. 163 00:07:18,346 --> 00:07:20,134 They didn't call themselves pastors 164 00:07:20,134 --> 00:07:22,140 anymore. They called themselves leaders. 165 00:07:22,140 --> 00:07:25,866 And it was all about leadership stuff. And 166 00:07:25,866 --> 00:07:31,102 so I drank that knew my. There was this 167 00:07:31,102 --> 00:07:34,558 new little company where you could 168 00:07:34,558 --> 00:07:37,086 actually order books on this new thing 169 00:07:37,086 --> 00:07:40,222 called the Internet, and this little 170 00:07:40,222 --> 00:07:43,006 company called Amazon that sold books. 171 00:07:43,006 --> 00:07:48,754 That's all they sold, was mean. I got to 172 00:07:48,754 --> 00:07:51,746 know my Amazon driver by name real well 173 00:07:51,746 --> 00:07:53,378 because he was showing up two or three 174 00:07:53,378 --> 00:07:56,770 times a week, bringing me leadership 175 00:07:56,770 --> 00:08:01,019 books. And so, like so many of my pastor, 176 00:08:01,019 --> 00:08:03,650 we were. We were reading everything on 177 00:08:03,650 --> 00:08:06,358 leadership. We're loading van loads up of 178 00:08:06,358 --> 00:08:09,334 our staff and team to drive to Willow 179 00:08:09,334 --> 00:08:13,242 Creek, Chicago, a couple times a, and so 180 00:08:13,242 --> 00:08:17,306 after several years of that along the way, 181 00:08:17,306 --> 00:08:19,306 it just became really evident to me that 182 00:08:19,306 --> 00:08:21,482 there were a lot of things that I was 183 00:08:21,482 --> 00:08:24,734 reading and that I was seeing, and that 184 00:08:24,734 --> 00:08:27,726 was seeing behind the scenes from pastors 185 00:08:27,726 --> 00:08:31,114 that I was getting to know and rub 186 00:08:31,114 --> 00:08:33,426 shoulders with. It was like, there's a lot 187 00:08:33,426 --> 00:08:37,022 of this stuff that's not adding up it 188 00:08:37,022 --> 00:08:40,114 doesn't sync well with what Jesus said, 189 00:08:40,114 --> 00:08:42,114 and it doesn't sync well with what I'm 190 00:08:42,114 --> 00:08:47,234 seeing in the epistles. And it is kind of 191 00:08:47,234 --> 00:08:51,206 excused under the mantra of leadership. 192 00:08:51,206 --> 00:08:53,430 And then I was feeling the weight of it, 193 00:08:53,430 --> 00:08:57,718 too, of being this great leader and trying 194 00:08:57,718 --> 00:09:00,522 to live up to all that. So over several 195 00:09:00,522 --> 00:09:02,314 years, it finally got to the point where I 196 00:09:02,314 --> 00:09:06,006 just couldn't take it anymore and really 197 00:09:06,006 --> 00:09:09,866 stepped out of my position at the church 198 00:09:09,866 --> 00:09:13,822 that we had planted and ended up stepping 199 00:09:13,822 --> 00:09:17,774 into a leadership position of running a 200 00:09:17,774 --> 00:09:19,466 couple of networks. And one of the 201 00:09:19,466 --> 00:09:21,086 networks was a church planting network 202 00:09:21,086 --> 00:09:23,122 that took me back to the Dallas Fort Worth 203 00:09:23,122 --> 00:09:27,746 area where I had grown up and on staff at 204 00:09:27,746 --> 00:09:30,738 a very large megachurch that also had a 205 00:09:30,738 --> 00:09:35,118 large church planting consortium that I 206 00:09:35,118 --> 00:09:37,542 ended up being the director of. And that 207 00:09:37,542 --> 00:09:40,534 really thrust me into the who's who of 208 00:09:40,534 --> 00:09:44,006 well known pastors. And then I really got 209 00:09:44,006 --> 00:09:49,866 to see how the sausage was made. So that's 210 00:09:49,866 --> 00:09:52,950 what really kind of started me on my 211 00:09:52,950 --> 00:09:58,426 journey of saying, we have to really have 212 00:09:58,426 --> 00:10:01,070 a go at these systems that we have in the 213 00:10:01,070 --> 00:10:04,206 church. I wrote my first book in 2012 on 214 00:10:04,206 --> 00:10:10,122 it. It was a book called Unleader. I don't 215 00:10:10,122 --> 00:10:13,162 feign or say I was a voice crying in the 216 00:10:13,162 --> 00:10:15,474 wilderness. I was one of a few voices, but 217 00:10:15,474 --> 00:10:17,298 there wasn't a lot of people saying 218 00:10:17,298 --> 00:10:20,834 anything or questioning it, especially 219 00:10:20,834 --> 00:10:23,074 with published books at that point. When 220 00:10:23,074 --> 00:10:27,478 my first book was published in 2012, but 221 00:10:27,478 --> 00:10:30,902 then in 2014 was when Mark Driscoll went 222 00:10:30,902 --> 00:10:35,446 down, then by 2018, hyples. And then it's 223 00:10:35,446 --> 00:10:37,734 just been like dominoes ever since then. 224 00:10:37,734 --> 00:10:39,926 Right? And as we're recording this and 225 00:10:39,926 --> 00:10:43,706 we're in the midst of one, that's all in 226 00:10:43,706 --> 00:10:46,182 the scenes right now with Mike Bickle and 227 00:10:46,182 --> 00:10:48,730 ihoP, and you have to wonder who's on 228 00:10:48,730 --> 00:10:54,542 deck. Somebody right now is scurrying and 229 00:10:54,542 --> 00:10:58,158 will be exposed in weeks or months. It's 230 00:10:58,158 --> 00:11:00,798 going to happen. It keeps happening. So, 231 00:11:00,798 --> 00:11:03,086 anyway, that's kind of the nickel tour of 232 00:11:03,086 --> 00:11:05,810 what's brought me to this point of this 233 00:11:05,810 --> 00:11:12,878 next book. Yeah, it can be pretty 234 00:11:12,878 --> 00:11:16,520 disorienting for a lot of people who have 235 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:21,974 seen from within, but maybe not exactly 236 00:11:21,974 --> 00:11:25,014 behind the curtain in ways that you have. 237 00:11:25,014 --> 00:11:27,846 When leaders like this, which, as you 238 00:11:27,846 --> 00:11:29,906 mentioned, are in this particular 239 00:11:29,906 --> 00:11:31,322 evangelical community here in the United 240 00:11:31,322 --> 00:11:33,834 States where we're recording, it does seem 241 00:11:33,834 --> 00:11:36,154 like a constant situation. But for those 242 00:11:36,154 --> 00:11:39,046 who are involved in, for example, maybe a 243 00:11:39,046 --> 00:11:40,538 megachurch right now, or they consider 244 00:11:40,538 --> 00:11:42,094 themselves a white evangelical in the 245 00:11:42,094 --> 00:11:45,246 United States, or they're in maybe Brazil, 246 00:11:45,246 --> 00:11:46,954 and they go to the big christian 247 00:11:46,954 --> 00:11:49,118 conference where one of these authors is 248 00:11:49,118 --> 00:11:52,314 coming to speak or in know where they 249 00:11:52,314 --> 00:11:54,298 don't see necessarily behind the curtain 250 00:11:54,298 --> 00:11:57,726 in ways that you have, it can be 251 00:11:57,726 --> 00:11:59,794 disorienting to hear these kinds of 252 00:11:59,794 --> 00:12:02,162 things. And so when it first happened for 253 00:12:02,162 --> 00:12:04,958 you, my question is, what was your moment 254 00:12:04,958 --> 00:12:07,446 of. Aha. Like, I'm not crazy. This is what 255 00:12:07,446 --> 00:12:10,802 it really is. Yeah. I think it was a 256 00:12:10,802 --> 00:12:16,790 combination of being on staff at this 257 00:12:16,790 --> 00:12:19,702 church. Let me first off say it's not just 258 00:12:19,702 --> 00:12:22,646 megachurches and you know that it can be a 259 00:12:22,646 --> 00:12:25,260 church of 50 people, and you've got this 260 00:12:25,260 --> 00:12:29,274 little dictator that's got his little f. 261 00:12:29,274 --> 00:12:34,346 It can be anywhere. It's just that in the 262 00:12:34,346 --> 00:12:37,582 mega situations, there's more resource and 263 00:12:37,582 --> 00:12:40,942 more power to wield. Right. And there's 264 00:12:40,942 --> 00:12:43,522 more influence. And the bad thing about 265 00:12:43,522 --> 00:12:45,842 that is when these leaders that have these 266 00:12:45,842 --> 00:12:49,726 huge platforms, they are having a huge 267 00:12:49,726 --> 00:12:52,834 influence and multiplying who they are in 268 00:12:52,834 --> 00:12:55,362 all these other young leaders, young 269 00:12:55,362 --> 00:12:58,134 pastors, young church planters. So I think 270 00:12:58,134 --> 00:13:04,514 for me, it was when I then really was on 271 00:13:04,514 --> 00:13:06,834 staff at this large church, and then my 272 00:13:06,834 --> 00:13:09,986 role caused me to do a lot of travel. It 273 00:13:09,986 --> 00:13:12,998 caused me to be literally shoulder to 274 00:13:12,998 --> 00:13:14,406 shoulder. I mean, you could start dropping 275 00:13:14,406 --> 00:13:16,826 names here. And I would probably say yes, 276 00:13:16,826 --> 00:13:19,786 was with that guy, spent a lot of time 277 00:13:19,786 --> 00:13:25,070 with that individual and just seeing 278 00:13:25,070 --> 00:13:31,566 grossness and just excuse and attitudes 279 00:13:31,566 --> 00:13:36,142 that were just so out of bounds and so 280 00:13:36,142 --> 00:13:41,842 anti Jesus that it spun your head. So that 281 00:13:41,842 --> 00:13:44,580 was probably when it all came together for 282 00:13:44,580 --> 00:13:48,022 me, and it just kind of punctuated that. 283 00:13:48,022 --> 00:13:54,406 This is an epidemic. Yeah, you probably 284 00:13:54,406 --> 00:13:56,934 get this question a lot because I do. A 285 00:13:56,934 --> 00:13:58,806 lot from people who are trying to 286 00:13:58,806 --> 00:14:00,858 understand this, which is trying to 287 00:14:00,858 --> 00:14:02,954 understand the unimaginable and something 288 00:14:02,954 --> 00:14:05,020 that can't fully be understood in some 289 00:14:05,020 --> 00:14:08,346 ways. It's one of those, like chicken or 290 00:14:08,346 --> 00:14:09,994 the egg questions that you probably get a 291 00:14:09,994 --> 00:14:12,074 lot. Like, was this leadership culture? 292 00:14:12,074 --> 00:14:13,902 What formed some of these, what we would 293 00:14:13,902 --> 00:14:16,138 often think of as people on the. Whatever 294 00:14:16,138 --> 00:14:19,246 spectrum of narcissism, as these leaders 295 00:14:19,246 --> 00:14:22,286 who can't be questioned, who it feels more 296 00:14:22,286 --> 00:14:25,402 like a cult. So is it that the leadership 297 00:14:25,402 --> 00:14:27,714 culture created this? Were they like this 298 00:14:27,714 --> 00:14:29,394 already? Is that who's surfacing to the 299 00:14:29,394 --> 00:14:30,706 top and then they're giving them skills? 300 00:14:30,706 --> 00:14:33,234 What is your perspective on all that? Yes, 301 00:14:33,234 --> 00:14:34,914 probably a little bit of all of it. I 302 00:14:34,914 --> 00:14:46,246 think that if someone has a. If they're, 303 00:14:46,246 --> 00:14:48,914 like, on the spectrum for a narcissist, 304 00:14:48,914 --> 00:14:52,358 if. If they move towards these type of 305 00:14:52,358 --> 00:14:55,626 positions, then it's like gas on the fire 306 00:14:55,626 --> 00:14:59,162 on the inside of them. And I haven't done 307 00:14:59,162 --> 00:15:01,046 any heavy studies. Maybe you have. I 308 00:15:01,046 --> 00:15:04,526 haven't done any heavy studies on. I've 309 00:15:04,526 --> 00:15:06,686 seen a few statistics, but I can't pull 310 00:15:06,686 --> 00:15:08,798 any of them up, or I can't recall any in 311 00:15:08,798 --> 00:15:11,822 particular right now. But I do know that 312 00:15:11,822 --> 00:15:13,538 from what I have seen in the little 313 00:15:13,538 --> 00:15:15,940 research on that particular, that I've 314 00:15:15,940 --> 00:15:23,278 seen that the church or faith based 315 00:15:23,278 --> 00:15:27,190 organizations, they do draw narcissists 316 00:15:27,190 --> 00:15:32,694 into leadership. There is something about 317 00:15:32,694 --> 00:15:35,286 a person that even may have a little bit 318 00:15:35,286 --> 00:15:38,874 of narcissistic tendencies in them that 319 00:15:38,874 --> 00:15:42,860 they are drawn to opportunity to have 320 00:15:42,860 --> 00:15:46,682 power. And the church is a great place for 321 00:15:46,682 --> 00:15:49,434 that. Right. I mean, it's a great place. 322 00:15:49,434 --> 00:15:53,134 If you have that and you want to be seen 323 00:15:53,134 --> 00:15:56,254 as an expert or you want to be known as a 324 00:15:56,254 --> 00:15:59,866 person who is in charge and be in charge, 325 00:15:59,866 --> 00:16:03,106 you've got a pretty good shot at getting a 326 00:16:03,106 --> 00:16:06,446 chance at living that out in the church 327 00:16:06,446 --> 00:16:12,146 somewhere to one degree or another. Yeah. 328 00:16:12,146 --> 00:16:13,826 If you like to hear yourself talk and you 329 00:16:13,826 --> 00:16:15,246 want a captive audience that can't 330 00:16:15,246 --> 00:16:16,486 interrupt you and can't question you, and 331 00:16:16,486 --> 00:16:19,366 you can talk for 30 minutes on a stage 332 00:16:19,366 --> 00:16:22,226 with a door. Great place to live out your 333 00:16:22,226 --> 00:16:27,858 rock star dreams. Exactly. So, yes, I know 334 00:16:27,858 --> 00:16:30,518 we've seen one or two of those along the 335 00:16:30,518 --> 00:16:33,142 way, but as you were doing research for 336 00:16:33,142 --> 00:16:35,286 this book, and I don't like spoiling 337 00:16:35,286 --> 00:16:36,666 people's books, so don't feel like you 338 00:16:36,666 --> 00:16:37,818 have to do that, because I do want people 339 00:16:37,818 --> 00:16:39,274 to buy your book. And by the way, go buy 340 00:16:39,274 --> 00:16:42,086 his book. Is there anything, as you were 341 00:16:42,086 --> 00:16:43,786 researching it, that sort of surprised you 342 00:16:43,786 --> 00:16:45,658 or you didn't expect or that kind of stood 343 00:16:45,658 --> 00:16:47,514 out to you in any way as you were 344 00:16:47,514 --> 00:16:48,746 researching? Yeah, and I don't know if 345 00:16:48,746 --> 00:16:50,078 we've mentioned the title of the book, but 346 00:16:50,078 --> 00:16:52,910 I sure want to mention it's the Atlas 347 00:16:52,910 --> 00:16:56,094 factor, and the subtitle is shifting 348 00:16:56,094 --> 00:16:57,634 leadership onto the shoulders of Jesus. 349 00:16:57,634 --> 00:17:00,542 So, I tell you one thing, Lori that really 350 00:17:00,542 --> 00:17:06,758 surprised me was one day during the 351 00:17:06,758 --> 00:17:10,326 research for it several years ago, I was 352 00:17:10,326 --> 00:17:12,534 just thinking about the word leadership, 353 00:17:12,534 --> 00:17:16,722 and I thought, well, so I have this Oxford 354 00:17:16,722 --> 00:17:19,430 dictionary that's a giant. It weighs about 355 00:17:19,430 --> 00:17:23,618 30 pounds, literally, and it's a 1955 356 00:17:23,618 --> 00:17:25,970 version of the Oxford Universal 357 00:17:25,970 --> 00:17:30,026 Dictionary. And one of the things that 358 00:17:30,026 --> 00:17:31,918 scholars or researchers like about that 359 00:17:31,918 --> 00:17:34,938 particular dictionary is it goes into the 360 00:17:34,938 --> 00:17:37,806 evolution of a word. So it can tell you, 361 00:17:37,806 --> 00:17:41,466 well, here's what this word meant in 1910. 362 00:17:41,466 --> 00:17:44,626 Here's what it meant in 1845. Here's what 363 00:17:44,626 --> 00:17:48,206 it meant in 1320. So it's very 364 00:17:48,206 --> 00:17:51,922 comprehensive. So it's just assumed that 365 00:17:51,922 --> 00:17:53,874 everybody knows what leadership is. So I 366 00:17:53,874 --> 00:17:56,066 thought, well, should we be assuming this? 367 00:17:56,066 --> 00:17:57,730 I want to go look in the Oxford 368 00:17:57,730 --> 00:18:00,582 dictionary. So I pulled it out, and I 369 00:18:00,582 --> 00:18:03,526 started looking for leadership. Now, I'm 370 00:18:03,526 --> 00:18:06,454 not saying the word leader or lead. I was 371 00:18:06,454 --> 00:18:09,494 looking for the word leadership, and I 372 00:18:09,494 --> 00:18:14,326 couldn't find it. And I was like, am I 373 00:18:14,326 --> 00:18:16,234 missing some pages? Did some pages fall 374 00:18:16,234 --> 00:18:19,626 out of my old 1955 Oxford dictionary here, 375 00:18:19,626 --> 00:18:22,606 or what's going on? And sure enough, it 376 00:18:22,606 --> 00:18:26,110 was not defined. I finally found the word 377 00:18:26,110 --> 00:18:29,518 one time as part of around an eight or 378 00:18:29,518 --> 00:18:33,674 nine word definition for the word lead or 379 00:18:33,674 --> 00:18:36,834 leader. I can't remember which one, but I 380 00:18:36,834 --> 00:18:38,974 was amazed. I was like, the word 381 00:18:38,974 --> 00:18:41,714 leadership is not even defined in this go 382 00:18:41,714 --> 00:18:44,706 to dictionary. Well, then come to find out 383 00:18:44,706 --> 00:18:48,466 in the 1915 Noah Webster dictionary, it 384 00:18:48,466 --> 00:18:51,446 wasn't in there at all. So I was shocked 385 00:18:51,446 --> 00:18:54,422 that, well, wait, this word, which we 386 00:18:54,422 --> 00:18:57,960 hear, it's $87 billion industry, by the 387 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:04,586 way, that's more than media. That's more 388 00:19:04,586 --> 00:19:08,170 than the media industry today is people 389 00:19:08,170 --> 00:19:11,466 spend on books and media of leadership 390 00:19:11,466 --> 00:19:17,434 training, $87 billion a year. But what, 391 00:19:17,434 --> 00:19:19,918 50, you know, 70 years ago, it wasn't even 392 00:19:19,918 --> 00:19:23,446 in the go to dictionary. So the thing that 393 00:19:23,446 --> 00:19:27,298 surprised me was how new leadership is 394 00:19:27,298 --> 00:19:29,634 now. A lot of people immediately jump and 395 00:19:29,634 --> 00:19:31,614 wait. Leadership's been around. The 396 00:19:31,614 --> 00:19:34,034 Chinese were studying leadership. Plato 397 00:19:34,034 --> 00:19:37,254 talked about leadership, sure, but not in 398 00:19:37,254 --> 00:19:40,230 the form that we talk about it today, not 399 00:19:40,230 --> 00:19:42,694 as management. And really, that is the 400 00:19:42,694 --> 00:19:45,910 thing is, most leadership today is 401 00:19:45,910 --> 00:19:48,794 management. And it's management theory. 402 00:19:48,794 --> 00:19:51,114 And management theory really was created 403 00:19:51,114 --> 00:19:54,710 in the early 19 hundreds for the 404 00:19:54,710 --> 00:19:59,626 leadership or for the industrial complex. 405 00:19:59,626 --> 00:20:04,442 And so you had the technology, you had 406 00:20:04,442 --> 00:20:07,774 cars being created, assembly lines, all 407 00:20:07,774 --> 00:20:13,194 this other mechanistic things. When the 408 00:20:13,194 --> 00:20:15,762 industry exploded and they needed to run 409 00:20:15,762 --> 00:20:17,426 these factories, they needed to operate 410 00:20:17,426 --> 00:20:19,326 them. So a guy named Frederick Winslow 411 00:20:19,326 --> 00:20:22,434 Taylor from Bethlehem Steele is really the 412 00:20:22,434 --> 00:20:25,266 one that scholars would say he was the 413 00:20:25,266 --> 00:20:27,078 father of modern day leadership. He wrote 414 00:20:27,078 --> 00:20:31,138 a book called the Scientific Practices of 415 00:20:31,138 --> 00:20:35,350 leadership, and this basically divided the 416 00:20:35,350 --> 00:20:38,170 workers from management. That's when you 417 00:20:38,170 --> 00:20:40,134 got the separation of white collar and 418 00:20:40,134 --> 00:20:43,114 blue collar, and he systematized it. And 419 00:20:43,114 --> 00:20:46,378 then that started being imported straight 420 00:20:46,378 --> 00:20:52,094 into the corporate America. I'm doing all 421 00:20:52,094 --> 00:20:54,126 this research on the term leadership. And 422 00:20:54,126 --> 00:20:57,322 so I started looking to see the history of 423 00:20:57,322 --> 00:21:01,806 books on the term leadership. And there 424 00:21:01,806 --> 00:21:03,806 were barely just a handful of books, even 425 00:21:03,806 --> 00:21:06,466 in the 1930s, with the word leadership in 426 00:21:06,466 --> 00:21:09,214 the title, it started gaining some 427 00:21:09,214 --> 00:21:12,098 traction in the. You started seeing a lot 428 00:21:12,098 --> 00:21:14,034 of books on leadership. So then I thought, 429 00:21:14,034 --> 00:21:16,502 well, let me find Christian. What's the 430 00:21:16,502 --> 00:21:19,126 history of christian books on leadership? 431 00:21:19,126 --> 00:21:21,560 And then I was really blown away, Lori, 432 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:26,022 because prior to the 1960s, you can't find 433 00:21:26,022 --> 00:21:28,730 any books with the term leadership in the 434 00:21:28,730 --> 00:21:33,594 title, and probably at best around ten to 435 00:21:33,594 --> 00:21:37,062 twelve in the 1960s that even had the term 436 00:21:37,062 --> 00:21:40,922 leadership in a Christian titled book. And 437 00:21:40,922 --> 00:21:45,182 so that really took me down a wormhole of 438 00:21:45,182 --> 00:21:47,406 saying, okay, this is really a new thing 439 00:21:47,406 --> 00:21:50,206 in the church. And I was thinking one day, 440 00:21:50,206 --> 00:21:52,978 I thought 40, 50 years ago, if you were in 441 00:21:52,978 --> 00:21:56,126 a coffee shop and there were some local 442 00:21:56,126 --> 00:21:58,050 pastors sitting around a table sharing 443 00:21:58,050 --> 00:22:02,926 together from a few different churches, I 444 00:22:02,926 --> 00:22:05,426 can't prove this with empirical data, but 445 00:22:05,426 --> 00:22:07,314 I just know because I'm an old guy and I 446 00:22:07,314 --> 00:22:09,926 was around back then, you wouldn't even 447 00:22:09,926 --> 00:22:11,734 have heard the word leadership mentioned 448 00:22:11,734 --> 00:22:13,974 around that table. No one would have said 449 00:22:13,974 --> 00:22:15,634 they wouldn't have called theirselves 450 00:22:15,634 --> 00:22:18,154 leaders. None of the local community would 451 00:22:18,154 --> 00:22:19,338 looked at them and called them leaders. 452 00:22:19,338 --> 00:22:21,766 They would have called them pastors, 453 00:22:21,766 --> 00:22:23,338 ministers, probably ministers, which is 454 00:22:23,338 --> 00:22:27,786 the word servant. So leadership as we know 455 00:22:27,786 --> 00:22:33,338 it today, in particular, as is management, 456 00:22:33,338 --> 00:22:35,680 it's a new thing. It really is a new 457 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:40,926 thing. It is a new thing. And I think some 458 00:22:40,926 --> 00:22:43,522 of the conversations that are being had 459 00:22:43,522 --> 00:22:47,502 around this because there's a lot of 460 00:22:47,502 --> 00:22:50,094 deconstruction, disentangling that whole 461 00:22:50,094 --> 00:22:52,034 conversation that's happening both in just 462 00:22:52,034 --> 00:22:55,486 your average church member or people 463 00:22:55,486 --> 00:22:57,694 sitting in the pew or I guess stadium 464 00:22:57,694 --> 00:22:59,654 seating, whatever it may be, as well as 465 00:22:59,654 --> 00:23:01,942 the academic theologian scholar side. 466 00:23:01,942 --> 00:23:03,714 Right. So it's happening in a lot of 467 00:23:03,714 --> 00:23:05,814 spaces. But I think as this conversation 468 00:23:05,814 --> 00:23:08,566 is happening, I do often hear, and you may 469 00:23:08,566 --> 00:23:10,806 hear this, too, people will say, well, 470 00:23:10,806 --> 00:23:13,894 abuses of power have been since 471 00:23:13,894 --> 00:23:14,986 Constantine, like this has been going on 472 00:23:14,986 --> 00:23:16,780 for a while, which we study in church 473 00:23:16,780 --> 00:23:20,302 history. And I agree, abuse of power has 474 00:23:20,302 --> 00:23:22,094 always been something that the church has 475 00:23:22,094 --> 00:23:25,678 had to wrestle with. But there is 476 00:23:25,678 --> 00:23:27,786 something very specific about the 477 00:23:27,786 --> 00:23:29,422 industrial revolution. There is something 478 00:23:29,422 --> 00:23:33,882 very specific about treating church 479 00:23:33,882 --> 00:23:36,158 volunteers or staff as cogs in a wheel of 480 00:23:36,158 --> 00:23:38,114 a factory to produce, like you used the 481 00:23:38,114 --> 00:23:42,286 word fiefdom earlier, that, mixed with 482 00:23:42,286 --> 00:23:45,042 religion, has a whole other type of abuse 483 00:23:45,042 --> 00:23:48,086 of power and burnout culture. It's not 484 00:23:48,086 --> 00:23:50,374 that southern baptist churches forever and 485 00:23:50,374 --> 00:23:52,486 ever haven't had women volunteering to 486 00:23:52,486 --> 00:23:54,086 make casseroles. Yes, that's been going 487 00:23:54,086 --> 00:23:56,966 on. But there is something extra happening 488 00:23:56,966 --> 00:24:01,274 now when a church Christmas service is 489 00:24:01,274 --> 00:24:04,582 like literally having people burn out 490 00:24:04,582 --> 00:24:06,122 immensely in ways that they can't be 491 00:24:06,122 --> 00:24:09,014 available to their families or even find 492 00:24:09,014 --> 00:24:10,714 Christmas triggering in the aftermath of 493 00:24:10,714 --> 00:24:13,118 being on staff at a church. And so, yeah, 494 00:24:13,118 --> 00:24:14,846 explain a little bit about that particular 495 00:24:14,846 --> 00:24:16,880 part of the burnout culture that you've 496 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,026 seen. Well, it ends up putting such a 497 00:24:20,026 --> 00:24:23,678 heavy burden upon, like you said, 498 00:24:23,678 --> 00:24:25,346 volunteers, staff members, and they don't 499 00:24:25,346 --> 00:24:30,738 have a say in it. So nowhere do you find 500 00:24:30,738 --> 00:24:33,522 any construct in the New Testament that 501 00:24:33,522 --> 00:24:37,574 gives permission or even intimates that 502 00:24:37,574 --> 00:24:39,878 one person makes the decisions for 503 00:24:39,878 --> 00:24:42,674 everybody else. You just don't see it. And 504 00:24:42,674 --> 00:24:44,646 Jesus was working to nip this in the bud 505 00:24:44,646 --> 00:24:48,034 with his own disciples because they had 506 00:24:48,034 --> 00:24:53,310 grown up in two iterations of heavy power. 507 00:24:53,310 --> 00:24:57,066 They'd grown up under roman power. I mean, 508 00:24:57,066 --> 00:24:59,954 they were subjugated to it every day under 509 00:24:59,954 --> 00:25:02,686 roman oppression. And so they could see 510 00:25:02,686 --> 00:25:05,918 the symbols, they could see the soldiers 511 00:25:05,918 --> 00:25:08,830 in the streets all the time, right? So, I 512 00:25:08,830 --> 00:25:13,346 mean, they're under this power base then, 513 00:25:13,346 --> 00:25:15,134 the place that they should have some 514 00:25:15,134 --> 00:25:21,118 refuge or some sanctity under the israeli 515 00:25:21,118 --> 00:25:23,486 religion at the time, they're under this 516 00:25:23,486 --> 00:25:26,546 heavy handed priesthood that wields power 517 00:25:26,546 --> 00:25:29,534 and is full of corruption and is a 518 00:25:29,534 --> 00:25:31,078 constant threat to anybody that stepped 519 00:25:31,078 --> 00:25:32,866 out of the bounds. Then you also had the 520 00:25:32,866 --> 00:25:34,406 scribes and the Pharisees that are always 521 00:25:34,406 --> 00:25:36,854 trying to keep everybody in order as they 522 00:25:36,854 --> 00:25:43,002 saw it. So these guys, their whole concept 523 00:25:43,002 --> 00:25:47,514 of any type of government is power and 524 00:25:47,514 --> 00:25:51,566 okay, and threat and strong arming. And so 525 00:25:51,566 --> 00:25:54,990 when you see James and John's mom go to 526 00:25:54,990 --> 00:25:57,866 Jesus and say, hey, once you set your 527 00:25:57,866 --> 00:26:00,990 kingdom up, can my boys know some really 528 00:26:00,990 --> 00:26:06,834 good positions? Secretary of the Navy or 529 00:26:06,834 --> 00:26:08,706 be the speaker of the house or whatever? 530 00:26:08,706 --> 00:26:12,754 And the other disciples get mad, but they 531 00:26:12,754 --> 00:26:16,342 were jockeying for position, know, they 532 00:26:16,342 --> 00:26:18,982 were arguing about who was the best among 533 00:26:18,982 --> 00:26:21,970 them. And so Jesus finally, and Jesus is 534 00:26:21,970 --> 00:26:24,242 literally talking to them about his 535 00:26:24,242 --> 00:26:27,746 crucifixion, and they're worried, know 536 00:26:27,746 --> 00:26:30,054 who's going to get the best? Get the 537 00:26:30,054 --> 00:26:33,546 corner office. And Jesus at one point sets 538 00:26:33,546 --> 00:26:36,934 them down and says, hey, the Gentiles 539 00:26:36,934 --> 00:26:39,030 exercise dominion over one another. They 540 00:26:39,030 --> 00:26:41,946 exercise lordship over one another. And 541 00:26:41,946 --> 00:26:44,314 the word gentiles there, I mean, that's a 542 00:26:44,314 --> 00:26:46,634 metaphor. If it had been in one of the Old 543 00:26:46,634 --> 00:26:48,718 Testament prophets saying this, it would 544 00:26:48,718 --> 00:26:51,114 have said the Babylonians or said, the 545 00:26:51,114 --> 00:26:53,838 Egyptians do this. So gentiles a metaphor 546 00:26:53,838 --> 00:26:56,386 for the world system. And so Jesus saying, 547 00:26:56,386 --> 00:26:58,926 hey, I know you've seen it that way. 548 00:26:58,926 --> 00:27:00,866 That's what's filled your head and filled 549 00:27:00,866 --> 00:27:03,266 your imagination. And now you think, I'm 550 00:27:03,266 --> 00:27:05,106 going to start something like that. And 551 00:27:05,106 --> 00:27:06,886 then he emphatically says, it will not be 552 00:27:06,886 --> 00:27:10,806 this way among you. He forbids them. And 553 00:27:10,806 --> 00:27:13,846 then this is where he says, you don't get 554 00:27:13,846 --> 00:27:17,534 it. My kingdom is completely different, is 555 00:27:17,534 --> 00:27:20,666 antithical to that. The first will be 556 00:27:20,666 --> 00:27:23,786 last, which was what he was saying, in 557 00:27:23,786 --> 00:27:27,930 fact, in Matthew 20, right before he says, 558 00:27:27,930 --> 00:27:33,298 that is where we get the parable of the 559 00:27:33,298 --> 00:27:36,474 vine dresser and the one that owns this 560 00:27:36,474 --> 00:27:39,934 vineyard that calls these workers and pays 561 00:27:39,934 --> 00:27:41,598 one at the end of the day, the same that 562 00:27:41,598 --> 00:27:43,822 he paid the one in the morning, basically 563 00:27:43,822 --> 00:27:46,594 saying, equality here, he's saying, the 564 00:27:46,594 --> 00:27:48,194 first will be last and the last will be 565 00:27:48,194 --> 00:27:50,420 first. In other words, I'm flattening this 566 00:27:50,420 --> 00:27:53,826 thing. And he says, the greatest will be 567 00:27:53,826 --> 00:27:56,694 the servant. And then he punctuates it by 568 00:27:56,694 --> 00:27:59,350 saying, the son of man comes as one who 569 00:27:59,350 --> 00:28:02,006 serves. You guys have got it all wrong. 570 00:28:02,006 --> 00:28:05,538 This is not about power. This is about 571 00:28:05,538 --> 00:28:10,346 letting go of power. And so Jesus had to 572 00:28:10,346 --> 00:28:12,362 deal with this with the disciples from the 573 00:28:12,362 --> 00:28:16,682 very beginning. And the question we need 574 00:28:16,682 --> 00:28:20,202 to be asking ourselves is, why is it so 575 00:28:20,202 --> 00:28:24,430 very, so much among us today? And it's not 576 00:28:24,430 --> 00:28:27,306 enough for us just to deal with the 577 00:28:27,306 --> 00:28:29,562 symptoms. We have to point out the 578 00:28:29,562 --> 00:28:31,630 symptoms. We have to talk about the 579 00:28:31,630 --> 00:28:33,774 symptoms, but at some point, we have to be 580 00:28:33,774 --> 00:28:36,130 talking about the system, because the 581 00:28:36,130 --> 00:28:37,966 system is what's creating all these 582 00:28:37,966 --> 00:28:41,122 symptoms of abuse that we have and just 583 00:28:41,122 --> 00:28:44,114 doing the same thing over and over again 584 00:28:44,114 --> 00:28:46,846 or doing it better. The famous Einstein 585 00:28:46,846 --> 00:28:48,606 quote. Right? What's that? That's the 586 00:28:48,606 --> 00:28:51,594 definition of insanity. But Edwards 587 00:28:51,594 --> 00:28:54,834 Dimming said 50 years ago, every system is 588 00:28:54,834 --> 00:28:56,294 perfectly designed to create the results 589 00:28:56,294 --> 00:28:59,882 it gets. And so it shouldn't surprise us 590 00:28:59,882 --> 00:29:03,078 that we see this continual leadership 591 00:29:03,078 --> 00:29:04,966 abuse, because we have a system that 592 00:29:04,966 --> 00:29:07,370 protects the abusers and empowers the 593 00:29:07,370 --> 00:29:12,422 abusers, and it's all in the name of 594 00:29:12,422 --> 00:29:14,074 leadership, and it's all in the name of 595 00:29:14,074 --> 00:29:16,366 management. And in those systems that 596 00:29:16,366 --> 00:29:18,734 gives these leaders immunity or gives them 597 00:29:18,734 --> 00:29:20,222 the right, they feel like they have the 598 00:29:20,222 --> 00:29:23,554 right to exercise this form of power, and 599 00:29:23,554 --> 00:29:30,846 they don't. Absolutely, yes. And it 600 00:29:30,846 --> 00:29:35,678 crushes these whistleblowers. It crushes 601 00:29:35,678 --> 00:29:39,640 women in particular, because the system 602 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,630 is. There are so many good men in the 603 00:29:42,630 --> 00:29:44,806 world, but unfortunately, some of the men 604 00:29:44,806 --> 00:29:48,338 that made this system had a level of toxic 605 00:29:48,338 --> 00:29:50,106 masculinity involved in it. Systems made 606 00:29:50,106 --> 00:29:52,246 by men for men. But even men are being 607 00:29:52,246 --> 00:29:55,370 crushed in it, men who are speaking up. 608 00:29:55,370 --> 00:29:58,394 But because of the way social hierarchy is 609 00:29:58,394 --> 00:30:01,446 in this system, especially christian 610 00:30:01,446 --> 00:30:03,054 patriarchy, is embedded in all of it. And 611 00:30:03,054 --> 00:30:06,526 so, as we look at the system, you have 612 00:30:06,526 --> 00:30:07,902 this book that you've written, right, 613 00:30:07,902 --> 00:30:10,298 about the atlas factors. Tell us, without 614 00:30:10,298 --> 00:30:12,978 ruining too much of the book, why atlas? 615 00:30:12,978 --> 00:30:15,186 What is the Atlas factor? And how can it 616 00:30:15,186 --> 00:30:18,900 help us overcome these obstacles? Yeah, 617 00:30:18,900 --> 00:30:25,314 well, it's a metaphor. And I had, in fact, 618 00:30:25,314 --> 00:30:27,382 a book that came out about three years 619 00:30:27,382 --> 00:30:29,174 ago, called the starfish in the spirit, 620 00:30:29,174 --> 00:30:32,150 which is really about decentralized 621 00:30:32,150 --> 00:30:36,040 leadership. I had put a metaphor in there 622 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,514 about atlas, as we know immediately. You 623 00:30:39,514 --> 00:30:43,462 think about the picture of this hulking 624 00:30:43,462 --> 00:30:46,778 lone figure that's trying to hold up the 625 00:30:46,778 --> 00:30:48,966 world, right? Which was, he had been 626 00:30:48,966 --> 00:30:50,698 cursed by Zeus to hold up the weight of 627 00:30:50,698 --> 00:30:53,726 the world over his shoulders. And so I'd 628 00:30:53,726 --> 00:30:56,606 use that metaphor in this other book about 629 00:30:56,606 --> 00:30:59,086 what it's like to try to be a pastor, to 630 00:30:59,086 --> 00:31:01,470 be this solo, heroic pastor and 631 00:31:01,470 --> 00:31:03,246 everything. And I experienced this. 632 00:31:03,246 --> 00:31:07,358 Everybody expects you to be, to give 45 to 633 00:31:07,358 --> 00:31:12,734 50 fantastic talks a year. Who do you 634 00:31:12,734 --> 00:31:14,998 think you are? I mean, come on. Nobody's 635 00:31:14,998 --> 00:31:16,934 that good. So you're supposed to be the 636 00:31:16,934 --> 00:31:19,078 top theologian, the top speaker, the face 637 00:31:19,078 --> 00:31:23,602 of the church, the fundraiser, the 638 00:31:23,602 --> 00:31:27,222 marriage expert, the family expert, right? 639 00:31:27,222 --> 00:31:31,146 All this stuff. Who do you think you are, 640 00:31:31,146 --> 00:31:33,866 and who does everybody else think can live 641 00:31:33,866 --> 00:31:35,786 up to that? No one can live up to that. No 642 00:31:35,786 --> 00:31:39,340 one was ever called or formulated. You see 643 00:31:39,340 --> 00:31:42,698 no picture of that whatsoever in the New 644 00:31:42,698 --> 00:31:47,262 Testament. You can't come up with it. The 645 00:31:47,262 --> 00:31:51,514 thing is, even these pastors, so many 646 00:31:51,514 --> 00:31:53,390 pastors, they're being victimized by the 647 00:31:53,390 --> 00:31:54,866 system, too, because they're expected to 648 00:31:54,866 --> 00:31:56,946 be atlas. So I kind of had that in my mind 649 00:31:56,946 --> 00:31:59,682 for a long time. And one day, I had made a 650 00:31:59,682 --> 00:32:05,338 post on social media somewhere about 651 00:32:05,338 --> 00:32:07,522 leadership in the church being 652 00:32:07,522 --> 00:32:09,126 problematic. And I said something along 653 00:32:09,126 --> 00:32:14,194 the lines of, it's problematic because it 654 00:32:14,194 --> 00:32:17,250 disjoints the body of Christ from her true 655 00:32:17,250 --> 00:32:22,986 head. Jesus and I had a buddy that shared 656 00:32:22,986 --> 00:32:27,606 that post. I made his chiropractor, 657 00:32:27,606 --> 00:32:30,654 commented on it, and it came back to me. 658 00:32:30,654 --> 00:32:33,626 It popped up in my feed where he had 659 00:32:33,626 --> 00:32:37,982 commented on it. He said, oh, yeah, that's 660 00:32:37,982 --> 00:32:41,454 like supplexation with the c one and the c 661 00:32:41,454 --> 00:32:47,006 two vertebra, the atlas vertebra and the 662 00:32:47,006 --> 00:32:49,794 axis vertebra. Well, it triggered me. I 663 00:32:49,794 --> 00:32:53,620 was like, whoa. Because he said atlas. And 664 00:32:53,620 --> 00:32:59,602 so I started looking this up and this term 665 00:32:59,602 --> 00:33:01,906 subluxation. In fact, this particular 666 00:33:01,906 --> 00:33:03,926 chiropractor, a guy named Eddie Weller out 667 00:33:03,926 --> 00:33:06,294 of St. Louis, had written a little book 668 00:33:06,294 --> 00:33:09,274 called it just makes sense. And I ordered 669 00:33:09,274 --> 00:33:12,314 that book, and I was fascinated. I ended 670 00:33:12,314 --> 00:33:14,694 up reading four more books on 671 00:33:14,694 --> 00:33:17,834 chiropractic, Lori So there you go. That's 672 00:33:17,834 --> 00:33:21,694 how this wormholes will open up. So the 673 00:33:21,694 --> 00:33:24,602 deal is, there's a very limited group of 674 00:33:24,602 --> 00:33:27,274 chiropractors that practice what they call 675 00:33:27,274 --> 00:33:31,566 upper cervical care. So they only focus on 676 00:33:31,566 --> 00:33:33,842 the top two vertebra, the c one and the c 677 00:33:33,842 --> 00:33:37,220 two. Once again, the atlas and the axis. 678 00:33:37,220 --> 00:33:40,942 And the atlas vertebra is the first 679 00:33:40,942 --> 00:33:42,674 vertebra, and it doesn't look like the 680 00:33:42,674 --> 00:33:46,626 others. It's more that concave where it 681 00:33:46,626 --> 00:33:49,286 holds the brain stem. It's what gives your 682 00:33:49,286 --> 00:33:52,562 head the swivel and all that. But its 683 00:33:52,562 --> 00:33:55,286 importance is that if anything below it, 684 00:33:55,286 --> 00:33:57,454 if there's a disconnection or a 685 00:33:57,454 --> 00:34:03,286 disjointedness, a disalignment, then it 686 00:34:03,286 --> 00:34:06,186 shuts off the information that the brain 687 00:34:06,186 --> 00:34:08,794 is trying to send down into the body. And 688 00:34:08,794 --> 00:34:11,260 so he made this statement in his book. In 689 00:34:11,260 --> 00:34:14,602 fact, he said, we that practice upper 690 00:34:14,602 --> 00:34:18,542 cervical care, we don't snap, crackle, and 691 00:34:18,542 --> 00:34:20,558 pop all the other vertebra. When you come 692 00:34:20,558 --> 00:34:23,102 to see us, we just focus on these two 693 00:34:23,102 --> 00:34:25,342 because we believe if we get that 694 00:34:25,342 --> 00:34:27,106 connection right, get that alignment 695 00:34:27,106 --> 00:34:29,122 right, everything else will come into 696 00:34:29,122 --> 00:34:31,826 place. And then he named many maladies 697 00:34:31,826 --> 00:34:33,826 that he had seen in his own practice. I 698 00:34:33,826 --> 00:34:36,614 mean, everything from high blood pressure, 699 00:34:36,614 --> 00:34:38,966 believe it or not, some, in fact, my buddy 700 00:34:38,966 --> 00:34:41,414 that he was, his chiropractor has a rare 701 00:34:41,414 --> 00:34:46,742 form of cancer, and his t counts and 702 00:34:46,742 --> 00:34:50,634 everything have totally changed through 703 00:34:50,634 --> 00:34:53,162 the chiropractic work. It's just amazing 704 00:34:53,162 --> 00:34:55,414 what happens. And so he made this 705 00:34:55,414 --> 00:34:58,620 statement. He said, the brain is in the 706 00:34:58,620 --> 00:35:02,654 body. It just needs no interruption. Well, 707 00:35:02,654 --> 00:35:05,294 you start taking what Paul had to say 708 00:35:05,294 --> 00:35:07,802 about the head and the body. Just read 709 00:35:07,802 --> 00:35:10,080 Ephesians. Read Ephesians four in 710 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,426 particular, where Paul talks about the 711 00:35:12,426 --> 00:35:14,146 gifts that the Lord has poured out into 712 00:35:14,146 --> 00:35:16,702 the apostle, prophet, shepherd, and 713 00:35:16,702 --> 00:35:19,138 teacher. Which is not a leadership text, 714 00:35:19,138 --> 00:35:22,274 by the way. It's a body text. So he's not 715 00:35:22,274 --> 00:35:24,482 talking about professional ministry. He's 716 00:35:24,482 --> 00:35:26,946 talking about the body of Christ. You may 717 00:35:26,946 --> 00:35:29,366 be a second grade elementary teacher. You 718 00:35:29,366 --> 00:35:31,446 may be a plumber. You may be a doctor. You 719 00:35:31,446 --> 00:35:35,314 may be a lawyer. You've been gifted. The 720 00:35:35,314 --> 00:35:37,994 Lord has these gifts poured out into his 721 00:35:37,994 --> 00:35:40,874 body. But the problem is, when men try to 722 00:35:40,874 --> 00:35:44,282 act like Atlas, when they try to take the 723 00:35:44,282 --> 00:35:46,970 place of Jesus, some of them even call 724 00:35:46,970 --> 00:35:51,622 themselves the head pastor. You're taking 725 00:35:51,622 --> 00:35:52,738 Jesus'place. There's nowhere in the 726 00:35:52,738 --> 00:35:54,570 scripture where any man's called head 727 00:35:54,570 --> 00:35:56,894 pastor. Jesus is the head pastor. There's 728 00:35:56,894 --> 00:35:58,622 no place in the scripture where anyone's 729 00:35:58,622 --> 00:36:01,214 called senior pastor. There's one place 730 00:36:01,214 --> 00:36:03,026 where Peter says, the chief shepherd. And 731 00:36:03,026 --> 00:36:06,002 guess who it is? Jesus. That position's 732 00:36:06,002 --> 00:36:09,554 already taken. Guys, don't even fill out 733 00:36:09,554 --> 00:36:12,146 the application. We don't have the opening 734 00:36:12,146 --> 00:36:15,874 right now, okay? We never will. So we just 735 00:36:15,874 --> 00:36:19,282 come up with all this stuff that is so 736 00:36:19,282 --> 00:36:21,106 distant from the scripture, and it's 737 00:36:21,106 --> 00:36:22,694 antithical to the things that Jesus and 738 00:36:22,694 --> 00:36:25,894 the apostles had to say. But we formulated 739 00:36:25,894 --> 00:36:30,070 it, and we've amalgamated it through 740 00:36:30,070 --> 00:36:32,998 cognitive dissonance with our ideas about 741 00:36:32,998 --> 00:36:34,826 leadership, and we believe it to be true, 742 00:36:34,826 --> 00:36:38,022 and we just accept it ad nausea without 743 00:36:38,022 --> 00:36:40,702 investigating it and being good bereans 744 00:36:40,702 --> 00:36:43,406 and really taking a good look at it. And 745 00:36:43,406 --> 00:36:47,834 once again, it's the system. I'm sorry, I 746 00:36:47,834 --> 00:36:51,978 ranted right there. Oh, I love a good 747 00:36:51,978 --> 00:36:54,106 rant. This was the funnest part of 748 00:36:54,106 --> 00:36:55,426 podcasting, is hearing a good rant once in 749 00:36:55,426 --> 00:37:00,882 a while. Yeah, no, I'm with you here as a 750 00:37:00,882 --> 00:37:02,914 family who's done a lot of chiropractic. 751 00:37:02,914 --> 00:37:06,174 All five of us and my family have 752 00:37:06,174 --> 00:37:07,622 benefited from chiropractors. In fact, I 753 00:37:07,622 --> 00:37:09,574 think as a baby, the first place I was 754 00:37:09,574 --> 00:37:12,006 ever taken to was a chiropractor, even 755 00:37:12,006 --> 00:37:16,040 from my family of origin. And we do 756 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,154 understand the brain and how it does 757 00:37:19,154 --> 00:37:21,526 impact the entire nervous system. Having 758 00:37:21,526 --> 00:37:23,274 walked through a lot of therapy over the 759 00:37:23,274 --> 00:37:25,034 last couple of years from my own toxic 760 00:37:25,034 --> 00:37:28,742 work environment in Omega church, 761 00:37:28,742 --> 00:37:30,822 understanding the way our nervous systems 762 00:37:30,822 --> 00:37:34,250 react to different things. And it's 763 00:37:34,250 --> 00:37:36,606 chiropractic, it's amazing how it can help 764 00:37:36,606 --> 00:37:38,586 so many things. But I think that in 765 00:37:38,586 --> 00:37:40,826 addition to that, just having, being a 766 00:37:40,826 --> 00:37:44,366 woman who worked as a woman pastor as 767 00:37:44,366 --> 00:37:45,954 well, and having gone to seminary, the 768 00:37:45,954 --> 00:37:48,146 word study I did many years ago on kefale, 769 00:37:48,146 --> 00:37:49,694 the word that's translated head into 770 00:37:49,694 --> 00:37:54,180 English in a lot of the versions, we 771 00:37:54,180 --> 00:37:56,546 understand that word head in English in 772 00:37:56,546 --> 00:37:58,886 the United States in 2024 to mean certain 773 00:37:58,886 --> 00:38:00,434 things that it may not have necessarily 774 00:38:00,434 --> 00:38:03,202 meant, even in the original, ancient 775 00:38:03,202 --> 00:38:04,966 context. It could mean source, like head 776 00:38:04,966 --> 00:38:07,846 of a river. And when it's seen in that 777 00:38:07,846 --> 00:38:11,478 way, God is a source for us. It is where 778 00:38:11,478 --> 00:38:14,474 things are. We want that source to have a 779 00:38:14,474 --> 00:38:16,586 beautiful flow without any inhibition, in 780 00:38:16,586 --> 00:38:19,050 the way that a chiropractor would want 781 00:38:19,050 --> 00:38:20,698 everything signaling from the brain all 782 00:38:20,698 --> 00:38:22,810 the way down to the toes to have a very 783 00:38:22,810 --> 00:38:25,934 straight path without any inhibitions. And 784 00:38:25,934 --> 00:38:29,614 so, like you said, understanding that word 785 00:38:29,614 --> 00:38:31,934 in ways we might use it in business in the 786 00:38:31,934 --> 00:38:34,754 United States, and English is not what it 787 00:38:34,754 --> 00:38:38,820 was ever intended for to be in the church. 788 00:38:38,820 --> 00:38:42,930 So we're putting our current language and 789 00:38:42,930 --> 00:38:45,970 culture mix in with post industrial 790 00:38:45,970 --> 00:38:48,534 evolution understanding of that word in 791 00:38:48,534 --> 00:38:50,214 ways that it wasn't intended. That's why 792 00:38:50,214 --> 00:38:52,834 not only is language important here, but 793 00:38:52,834 --> 00:38:55,206 cultural exegesis is important. But I 794 00:38:55,206 --> 00:38:57,554 think that the average church goer, I'm 795 00:38:57,554 --> 00:39:01,146 thinking of white evangelical attendant 796 00:39:01,146 --> 00:39:04,122 that may listen to this podcast, or 797 00:39:04,122 --> 00:39:05,814 somebody, maybe in a megachurch in 798 00:39:05,814 --> 00:39:07,850 Singapore, who's been heavily influenced 799 00:39:07,850 --> 00:39:11,002 by maybe the teachings of Joel Olstein or 800 00:39:11,002 --> 00:39:12,858 different authors who have sold lots and 801 00:39:12,858 --> 00:39:14,986 lots of copies of their books in this 802 00:39:14,986 --> 00:39:17,006 evangelical industrial complex. Listening 803 00:39:17,006 --> 00:39:19,546 to this may cause a lot of cognitive 804 00:39:19,546 --> 00:39:22,094 dissonance, where one thing is being said 805 00:39:22,094 --> 00:39:23,998 here and portrayed here, and it's 806 00:39:23,998 --> 00:39:26,266 beautiful. And look at the beautiful 807 00:39:26,266 --> 00:39:28,640 Christmas pageants that happen and all 808 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,314 these, that what we often hear, and you've 809 00:39:31,314 --> 00:39:33,422 probably heard this, too, is look at the 810 00:39:33,422 --> 00:39:36,402 fruit. And so as you answer some of those 811 00:39:36,402 --> 00:39:38,902 questions that people might have, why is 812 00:39:38,902 --> 00:39:41,046 there such a disconnect between what 813 00:39:41,046 --> 00:39:42,706 should be happening and what looks like 814 00:39:42,706 --> 00:39:44,838 it's happening and what's actually 815 00:39:44,838 --> 00:39:46,854 happening? And how can people see those 816 00:39:46,854 --> 00:39:49,100 red flags when they're not meant to be 817 00:39:49,100 --> 00:39:54,220 seen? Yeah, well, that's a big, good 818 00:39:54,220 --> 00:39:58,358 question. But first of all, I think you 819 00:39:58,358 --> 00:40:00,540 described it really good there, Lori is 820 00:40:00,540 --> 00:40:04,350 that for the most part, it's all that 821 00:40:04,350 --> 00:40:07,182 anyone has ever experienced or known or 822 00:40:07,182 --> 00:40:11,018 seen. So when you grow up in this or even, 823 00:40:11,018 --> 00:40:13,966 let's say, you become a Christian at 25 or 824 00:40:13,966 --> 00:40:16,206 30, you're immediately put into this, and 825 00:40:16,206 --> 00:40:19,682 that's all you ever see. And I know as a 826 00:40:19,682 --> 00:40:22,258 young leader, as a young pastor, even when 827 00:40:22,258 --> 00:40:24,046 I would have these little red flags 828 00:40:24,046 --> 00:40:26,034 popping up in me, and I bet you experience 829 00:40:26,034 --> 00:40:28,286 this, too. You and Jason probably 830 00:40:28,286 --> 00:40:30,406 experienced this, too, you shove them down 831 00:40:30,406 --> 00:40:32,726 and push them down, because everybody does 832 00:40:32,726 --> 00:40:35,094 it this way and everybody's saying it, and 833 00:40:35,094 --> 00:40:36,886 all the ones that are writing the books 834 00:40:36,886 --> 00:40:39,500 and doing all the talking. So it must be 835 00:40:39,500 --> 00:40:42,522 me. I'm probably the one that's wrong on 836 00:40:42,522 --> 00:40:45,514 here. Okay? So my first thing would say 837 00:40:45,514 --> 00:40:47,642 is, no, you're not wrong with those little 838 00:40:47,642 --> 00:40:52,902 red flags. And when you go to the 839 00:40:52,902 --> 00:40:55,838 scripture again, you start seeing it. And 840 00:40:55,838 --> 00:40:57,726 one of the hardest things for us to do is 841 00:40:57,726 --> 00:41:00,826 to pick the Bible up and read it like 842 00:41:00,826 --> 00:41:02,846 we've never read it before. And that's one 843 00:41:02,846 --> 00:41:04,734 of the things I challenge people to do. I 844 00:41:04,734 --> 00:41:06,938 say, look, even get a translation that 845 00:41:06,938 --> 00:41:09,026 you're not used to. Pick it and read 846 00:41:09,026 --> 00:41:10,850 through the New Testament three or four 847 00:41:10,850 --> 00:41:14,098 times and see what you see. But look at it 848 00:41:14,098 --> 00:41:16,558 without overlaying, which is called 849 00:41:16,558 --> 00:41:19,094 isegesis, right. Rather than exegesis, 850 00:41:19,094 --> 00:41:22,022 rather than really going to the source, 851 00:41:22,022 --> 00:41:24,674 put all your tradition and your experience 852 00:41:24,674 --> 00:41:26,854 aside and try to read it like you're 853 00:41:26,854 --> 00:41:29,660 seeing it for the first time. Then compare 854 00:41:29,660 --> 00:41:33,738 that with what you see every day or every 855 00:41:33,738 --> 00:41:36,154 week in the church that you're a part of 856 00:41:36,154 --> 00:41:39,130 and see if they look alike. And 857 00:41:39,130 --> 00:41:40,894 unfortunately, a lot of times, they don't 858 00:41:40,894 --> 00:41:45,402 look much alike. So going back to the 859 00:41:45,402 --> 00:41:48,814 source is vital. And important. But I 860 00:41:48,814 --> 00:41:50,894 think that one of the big reasons that we 861 00:41:50,894 --> 00:41:53,554 have this also another factor that comes 862 00:41:53,554 --> 00:42:00,066 into play is that we've had about 50 years 863 00:42:00,066 --> 00:42:03,714 of church growth industry in the church 864 00:42:03,714 --> 00:42:05,954 and the church growth movement really? 865 00:42:05,954 --> 00:42:07,686 Well, it's really about 60 years. But then 866 00:42:07,686 --> 00:42:11,222 it started gaining traction publicly in 867 00:42:11,222 --> 00:42:14,754 around 1969, around 1970 with the church 868 00:42:14,754 --> 00:42:17,526 growth movement. And then that evolved, as 869 00:42:17,526 --> 00:42:20,090 I mentioned earlier, the Seeker church 870 00:42:20,090 --> 00:42:24,202 movement. And then the leadership complex 871 00:42:24,202 --> 00:42:27,082 started coming into play into it. So the 872 00:42:27,082 --> 00:42:32,046 thing is that really the prevailing. I'm 873 00:42:32,046 --> 00:42:35,102 doing a generalization here, but it's a 874 00:42:35,102 --> 00:42:38,702 strong majority. Is that the prevailing 875 00:42:38,702 --> 00:42:41,774 model of church and leader you see today? 876 00:42:41,774 --> 00:42:44,170 They grew up in this. Now, they were 877 00:42:44,170 --> 00:42:46,514 trained in all this. They went to seminary 878 00:42:46,514 --> 00:42:49,022 with no other model than this. All the 879 00:42:49,022 --> 00:42:50,546 leadership stuff and the conferences that 880 00:42:50,546 --> 00:42:53,602 they went to, it all comes out of this. 881 00:42:53,602 --> 00:42:57,042 And so there's really not been hardly 882 00:42:57,042 --> 00:42:59,062 anybody that's practiced. I'll tell you 883 00:42:59,062 --> 00:43:02,374 about the only notable christian group 884 00:43:02,374 --> 00:43:04,646 that has practiced something other than 885 00:43:04,646 --> 00:43:06,166 this. And I'm saying notable. So I'm not 886 00:43:06,166 --> 00:43:08,074 saying that they're the only ones, but the 887 00:43:08,074 --> 00:43:10,810 most notable would be the Quakers or the 888 00:43:10,810 --> 00:43:16,726 Friends churches. They operate in a 889 00:43:16,726 --> 00:43:19,814 flattened leadership. They operate as 890 00:43:19,814 --> 00:43:22,430 siblings, as brothers and sisters with 891 00:43:22,430 --> 00:43:27,150 equality. The term servant leadership came 892 00:43:27,150 --> 00:43:31,726 from a guy named Robert Greenleaf. He was 893 00:43:31,726 --> 00:43:36,130 a Quaker. Okay? So that was a big part of 894 00:43:36,130 --> 00:43:39,794 his background that helped him look at 895 00:43:39,794 --> 00:43:42,514 what leadership should be and formulate it 896 00:43:42,514 --> 00:43:44,970 from more what we would see in a New 897 00:43:44,970 --> 00:43:48,066 Testament way because of what he 898 00:43:48,066 --> 00:43:50,950 experienced among, in his form of 899 00:43:50,950 --> 00:43:53,762 Christianity. But when you are 900 00:43:53,762 --> 00:43:56,274 indoctrinated over and over and over by a 901 00:43:56,274 --> 00:43:59,830 false doctrine, then you look like the 902 00:43:59,830 --> 00:44:01,658 crazy one. If you're the one that's 903 00:44:01,658 --> 00:44:03,910 speaking against it, and that's that old 904 00:44:03,910 --> 00:44:05,706 adage, the day will come when those who 905 00:44:05,706 --> 00:44:07,958 are mad will think you're mad because 906 00:44:07,958 --> 00:44:11,286 you're not mad like them. The old british 907 00:44:11,286 --> 00:44:13,706 term mad, meaning crazy. And that's kind 908 00:44:13,706 --> 00:44:15,966 of what happens today. Now, I would say 909 00:44:15,966 --> 00:44:17,326 that there's been more of a breakthrough 910 00:44:17,326 --> 00:44:19,950 the last few years with the fall of all 911 00:44:19,950 --> 00:44:22,554 these notable leaders. I can talk more 912 00:44:22,554 --> 00:44:25,134 openly about it. I get more invitations to 913 00:44:25,134 --> 00:44:27,486 talk and teach and train and consult and 914 00:44:27,486 --> 00:44:29,746 coach on it, because finally we're getting 915 00:44:29,746 --> 00:44:32,450 to a place where a few people are going, 916 00:44:32,450 --> 00:44:33,838 maybe something is wrong with the way 917 00:44:33,838 --> 00:44:36,966 we're doing leadership. It's like, well, 918 00:44:36,966 --> 00:44:40,582 do you think, you think there might be. So 919 00:44:40,582 --> 00:44:42,646 there are starting to be more cracks to 920 00:44:42,646 --> 00:44:45,974 have the conversation now, thankfully, and 921 00:44:45,974 --> 00:44:48,646 with some wonderful books like Chuck 922 00:44:48,646 --> 00:44:50,746 DeGrot's work on narcissism in the church 923 00:44:50,746 --> 00:44:54,134 or you think about Scott and Laura 924 00:44:54,134 --> 00:44:58,342 Behringer and Tove and these things, the 925 00:44:58,342 --> 00:45:01,214 conversation is more open today than it 926 00:45:01,214 --> 00:45:06,366 was even ten years ago. It is. Absolutely, 927 00:45:06,366 --> 00:45:09,774 it is. We have a lot more understanding 928 00:45:09,774 --> 00:45:14,498 now and more people. I thank you. Social 929 00:45:14,498 --> 00:45:16,866 media, as terrible as it is, especially x, 930 00:45:16,866 --> 00:45:19,374 which has been a space for the hashtag 931 00:45:19,374 --> 00:45:22,130 church, two movement and spaces where 932 00:45:22,130 --> 00:45:24,180 especially women were not being listened 933 00:45:24,180 --> 00:45:26,630 to, where their voice can be heard by 934 00:45:26,630 --> 00:45:29,686 some, at least. But there's so much work 935 00:45:29,686 --> 00:45:35,622 to be done. So as we kind of sort of land 936 00:45:35,622 --> 00:45:38,230 this a little bit for people, is there 937 00:45:38,230 --> 00:45:41,238 anything else that you're hoping people 938 00:45:41,238 --> 00:45:43,906 will get out of your book or anything we 939 00:45:43,906 --> 00:45:45,382 haven't addressed that you think is really 940 00:45:45,382 --> 00:45:47,094 important for people to understand in this 941 00:45:47,094 --> 00:45:50,446 whole conversation before we kind to wrap 942 00:45:50,446 --> 00:45:52,190 it up. And also, at the end of your 943 00:45:52,190 --> 00:45:54,174 answer, I'd love for you to give people 944 00:45:54,174 --> 00:45:56,526 how they can find you, and we'll link your 945 00:45:56,526 --> 00:45:58,506 book and everything, the Atlas factor. But 946 00:45:58,506 --> 00:45:59,854 what's the last thing you want to leave 947 00:45:59,854 --> 00:46:01,566 people with? Is either a call to action or 948 00:46:01,566 --> 00:46:02,730 something you want them to understand, and 949 00:46:02,730 --> 00:46:05,186 then how can they find you? Yeah, well, 950 00:46:05,186 --> 00:46:07,794 the first thing I would say is just know 951 00:46:07,794 --> 00:46:12,546 that you're not crazy, that you're not off 952 00:46:12,546 --> 00:46:16,994 on what you're feeling. And if you are a 953 00:46:16,994 --> 00:46:22,054 church member that has suffered under some 954 00:46:22,054 --> 00:46:25,686 form of abuse, whether it be sexual abuse 955 00:46:25,686 --> 00:46:28,854 by one in power, whether it be power 956 00:46:28,854 --> 00:46:32,566 abuse, bullying, it seems like that 957 00:46:32,566 --> 00:46:35,802 there's narcissism in the leadership 958 00:46:35,802 --> 00:46:37,978 system or the leaders that you're among, 959 00:46:37,978 --> 00:46:41,050 if you're a staff member, if you're a 960 00:46:41,050 --> 00:46:43,750 volunteer. When I wrote the Atlas Factor, 961 00:46:43,750 --> 00:46:46,554 I was thinking about you, and I was 962 00:46:46,554 --> 00:46:49,326 writing this for you. First of all, to let 963 00:46:49,326 --> 00:46:51,086 you know that you're not crazy. Second of 964 00:46:51,086 --> 00:46:54,478 all, to give you some language to apply to 965 00:46:54,478 --> 00:46:57,514 it that maybe you've not been able to 966 00:46:57,514 --> 00:46:59,026 formulate in words what you're feeling, 967 00:46:59,026 --> 00:47:00,850 what you're seeing, and then give you some 968 00:47:00,850 --> 00:47:04,786 theology to back it up and to walk it out. 969 00:47:04,786 --> 00:47:10,786 And then the book gets really. I have very 970 00:47:10,786 --> 00:47:13,990 practical applications in there as far as 971 00:47:13,990 --> 00:47:17,480 systems that can be adapted for churches 972 00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,026 that really do want to change. And I would 973 00:47:20,026 --> 00:47:24,266 say this. I think the majority of pastors 974 00:47:24,266 --> 00:47:28,714 out there are good people that want to do 975 00:47:28,714 --> 00:47:31,302 it right, but I think that their 976 00:47:31,302 --> 00:47:33,534 imaginations have been held captive by 977 00:47:33,534 --> 00:47:35,086 these systems, and they just don't know 978 00:47:35,086 --> 00:47:38,126 how to think outside those boxes. So I 979 00:47:38,126 --> 00:47:42,126 think that the majority are good. Even 980 00:47:42,126 --> 00:47:43,694 some of the worst abusers that we could 981 00:47:43,694 --> 00:47:45,662 name today, you look back at their 982 00:47:45,662 --> 00:47:47,294 history, you talk to the witnesses that 983 00:47:47,294 --> 00:47:48,802 were around in the early days. They 984 00:47:48,802 --> 00:47:50,798 started out good. They started out good 985 00:47:50,798 --> 00:47:52,866 hearted. I mean, if you listen to some of 986 00:47:52,866 --> 00:47:55,910 the quotes or go back to the Mars Hill 987 00:47:55,910 --> 00:47:59,798 podcast, you'll hear Mark Driscoll saying 988 00:47:59,798 --> 00:48:04,182 things 20 years ago that then in his last 989 00:48:04,182 --> 00:48:07,606 years, he was saying the very opposite. 990 00:48:07,606 --> 00:48:10,786 And that's one of the things about this 991 00:48:10,786 --> 00:48:12,826 addiction to power can really change you. 992 00:48:12,826 --> 00:48:14,794 And I mean David, that happened to David. 993 00:48:14,794 --> 00:48:17,146 So David was a man after God's own heart 994 00:48:17,146 --> 00:48:19,418 and he abused his power. So that means any 995 00:48:19,418 --> 00:48:23,054 of us could do it. That's why no man is 996 00:48:23,054 --> 00:48:25,530 made to be king. It was never God's 997 00:48:25,530 --> 00:48:27,840 intention. So anyway, the book offers 998 00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:31,854 hope. We have a website, 999 00:48:31,854 --> 00:48:33,970 theatlasfactor.com. I can be reached 1000 00:48:33,970 --> 00:48:38,306 directly email info@theatlasfactor.com 1001 00:48:38,306 --> 00:48:39,746 theatlasfactor.com we do coaching 1002 00:48:39,746 --> 00:48:43,006 consulting We do all that kind of stuff 1003 00:48:43,006 --> 00:48:44,894 But hopefully the book can be some help to 1004 00:48:44,894 --> 00:48:50,630 get you started Thank you so much for 1005 00:48:50,630 --> 00:48:53,240 researching for pouring your heart and 1006 00:48:53,240 --> 00:48:56,054 time and soul into this book It's not an 1007 00:48:56,054 --> 00:48:58,666 easy book to put out there because it 1008 00:48:58,666 --> 00:49:01,286 requires you to dig deep into some things 1009 00:49:01,286 --> 00:49:04,540 that aren't easy to say And nobody wants 1010 00:49:04,540 --> 00:49:10,086 to be the person who shines a light on 1011 00:49:10,086 --> 00:49:12,166 toxic systems But you've not only done 1012 00:49:12,166 --> 00:49:14,380 that you've helped to see the terrible and 1013 00:49:14,380 --> 00:49:16,366 the beautiful and that there can beauty 1014 00:49:16,366 --> 00:49:18,446 beauty from the ashes But it takes work 1015 00:49:18,446 --> 00:49:20,586 and it takes opening our eyes So thank you 1016 00:49:20,586 --> 00:49:22,686 for opening our eyes Thank you for digging 1017 00:49:22,686 --> 00:49:25,066 into not only the research but theology, 1018 00:49:25,066 --> 00:49:26,894 theology helping us with the metaphor of 1019 00:49:26,894 --> 00:49:29,842 the Atlas factor and just framing it in 1020 00:49:29,842 --> 00:49:32,126 way way where people can know they're not 1021 00:49:32,126 --> 00:49:34,626 crazy they're not alone and we can link 1022 00:49:34,626 --> 00:49:36,066 arms and do this together And thank you 1023 00:49:36,066 --> 00:49:39,206 for not only writing the book but offering 1024 00:49:39,206 --> 00:49:42,658 to be available to coach and walk 1025 00:49:42,658 --> 00:49:43,958 alongside churches that want to get better 1026 00:49:43,958 --> 00:49:46,038 Thank you for this I'm sure it's going to 1027 00:49:46,038 --> 00:49:48,466 a a difference I've enjoyed getting 1028 00:49:48,466 --> 00:49:49,974 advanced advanced copy of it My husband 1029 00:49:49,974 --> 00:49:53,546 has also been in your pre release group 1030 00:49:53,546 --> 00:49:55,194 reading it and telling me about it too as 1031 00:49:55,194 --> 00:49:58,266 he's read it It's really good So I do hope 1032 00:49:58,266 --> 00:49:59,946 listeners will a a copy of it and that 1033 00:49:59,946 --> 00:50:01,226 you'll get some people that reach out to 1034 00:50:01,226 --> 00:50:03,226 you from this Thanks for this conversation 1035 00:50:03,226 --> 00:50:06,314 today Lance and just for being who you are 1036 00:50:06,314 --> 00:50:08,702 I appreciate the work you are doing Lori 1037 00:50:08,702 --> 00:50:11,406 It's hard brave work I appreciate it and 1038 00:50:11,406 --> 00:50:14,718 thanks for having me You're welcome I'm 1039 00:50:14,718 --> 00:50:16,746 going to have you stick around for our 1040 00:50:16,746 --> 00:50:18,210 difference maker community and ask you 1041 00:50:18,210 --> 00:50:20,594 another question But for today just thanks 1042 00:50:20,594 --> 00:50:22,786 for being on the show and hope the release 1043 00:50:22,786 --> 00:50:24,594 of your book goes really well Lots of 1044 00:50:24,594 --> 00:50:29,430 people read it Thanks One of the things I 1045 00:50:29,430 --> 00:50:32,454 appreciate about Lance is not only is he 1046 00:50:32,454 --> 00:50:35,702 man man who's researching and synthesizing 1047 00:50:35,702 --> 00:50:38,374 his own experience of anecdotal 1048 00:50:38,374 --> 00:50:41,340 information of in in the spaces he's 1049 00:50:41,340 --> 00:50:44,618 writing about and meeting lots of people 1050 00:50:44,618 --> 00:50:46,346 in in the conversations he's having where 1051 00:50:46,346 --> 00:50:48,838 he's trying to move the needle forward a 1052 00:50:48,838 --> 00:50:50,874 healthier healthier type of faith 1053 00:50:50,874 --> 00:50:53,326 community in these evangelical spaces here 1054 00:50:53,326 --> 00:50:57,326 in the US or just the church here in the 1055 00:50:57,326 --> 00:51:00,206 west and really globally his work is 1056 00:51:00,206 --> 00:51:02,302 global But since he's based in the He's 1057 00:51:02,302 --> 00:51:03,838 you know seeing a lot of patterns here a a 1058 00:51:03,838 --> 00:51:05,338 lot of us are seeing But one of the things 1059 00:51:05,338 --> 00:51:08,306 I really appreciate about Lance is he's 1060 00:51:08,306 --> 00:51:10,194 able to synthesize a lot of that research 1061 00:51:10,194 --> 00:51:13,074 and information and put it into words that 1062 00:51:13,074 --> 00:51:15,570 help us understand it to give language to 1063 00:51:15,570 --> 00:51:18,470 it And he also is a person who deeply 1064 00:51:18,470 --> 00:51:23,174 cares and listens to those who are on the 1065 00:51:23,174 --> 00:51:25,746 margins who have been oppressed by some of 1066 00:51:25,746 --> 00:51:28,186 these systems that he's been part part of 1067 00:51:28,186 --> 00:51:30,666 and that he's giving language to it in way 1068 00:51:30,666 --> 00:51:35,034 way that can help really set people free 1069 00:51:35,034 --> 00:51:38,426 When our souls are held captive by toxic 1070 00:51:38,426 --> 00:51:40,774 environments or leaders creating empires 1071 00:51:40,774 --> 00:51:43,742 and fiefdoms as he mentioned that is not 1072 00:51:43,742 --> 00:51:46,202 space space where our souls are safe It's 1073 00:51:46,202 --> 00:51:48,190 not psychologically safe It's not 1074 00:51:48,190 --> 00:51:51,326 spiritually safe And if you're listening 1075 00:51:51,326 --> 00:51:52,782 to this and you're in space space like 1076 00:51:52,782 --> 00:51:55,534 that today I hope that it has given you 1077 00:51:55,534 --> 00:51:57,406 some information you needed to hear some 1078 00:51:57,406 --> 00:52:00,494 hard truths Our brains are not wired to 1079 00:52:00,494 --> 00:52:01,966 handle cognitive dissonance very well So 1080 00:52:01,966 --> 00:52:03,726 if you're seeing these beautiful in in 1081 00:52:03,726 --> 00:52:05,186 your faith environment and you're also 1082 00:52:05,186 --> 00:52:07,718 seeing these really terrible things it can 1083 00:52:07,718 --> 00:52:10,600 a a lot of havoc on your brain your body 1084 00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:15,526 your system It's not place place that's 1085 00:52:15,526 --> 00:52:17,158 healthy And so hopefully he's helped you 1086 00:52:17,158 --> 00:52:20,166 see some of those red flags Really I 1087 00:52:20,166 --> 00:52:21,606 absolutely urge you to pick up his book 1088 00:52:21,606 --> 00:52:24,890 the Atlas Factor It'll help give insight 1089 00:52:24,890 --> 00:52:28,620 into maybe why things haven't seemed right 1090 00:52:28,620 --> 00:52:30,826 And also I really appreciate the fact that 1091 00:52:30,826 --> 00:52:32,598 he not only synthesizes this information 1092 00:52:32,598 --> 00:52:34,446 but he's just real real straight shooter 1093 00:52:34,446 --> 00:52:37,214 Not in harsh harsh way but in way way 1094 00:52:37,214 --> 00:52:39,134 that's really caring and in in my 1095 00:52:39,134 --> 00:52:41,758 experience with him both in this interview 1096 00:52:41,758 --> 00:52:43,566 and in the speaker room and just 1097 00:52:43,566 --> 00:52:45,166 interacting with him at the conference in 1098 00:52:45,166 --> 00:52:46,914 Chicago which a real real delight to get 1099 00:52:46,914 --> 00:52:50,366 to know him So happy to introduce this 1100 00:52:50,366 --> 00:52:52,114 difference maker to you If you've not 1101 00:52:52,114 --> 00:52:54,834 known him before and hopefully you'll go 1102 00:52:54,834 --> 00:52:57,586 to his website order his book read it and 1103 00:52:57,586 --> 00:53:00,018 let us know because I would love to hear 1104 00:53:00,018 --> 00:53:02,134 how you're interacting with it And once 1105 00:53:02,134 --> 00:53:03,746 again he hangs out with us in the 1106 00:53:03,746 --> 00:53:05,606 difference maker community and we go a 1107 00:53:05,606 --> 00:53:07,366 little bit deeper about his experience 1108 00:53:07,366 --> 00:53:09,910 behind the scenes a a person who has been 1109 00:53:09,910 --> 00:53:12,150 consultant consultant in some of these 1110 00:53:12,150 --> 00:53:15,706 church environments who can speak into 1111 00:53:15,706 --> 00:53:17,306 what it looks like behind the scenes and 1112 00:53:17,306 --> 00:53:21,082 what the reality of that is and why a hard 1113 00:53:21,082 --> 00:53:23,866 hard call isn't easy but is necessary for 1114 00:53:23,866 --> 00:53:26,106 us to move forward in healthy healthy way 1115 00:53:26,106 --> 00:53:27,786 So if you're in that space or you know 1116 00:53:27,786 --> 00:53:29,226 someone who's in that space who could 1117 00:53:29,226 --> 00:53:30,526 really benefit from the conversation we 1118 00:53:30,526 --> 00:53:32,094 have with him and the difference maker 1119 00:53:32,094 --> 00:53:33,774 community please let them know about it 1120 00:53:33,774 --> 00:53:35,438 Once again you can join our difference 1121 00:53:35,438 --> 00:53:39,154 maker community for as little as 5 a month 1122 00:53:39,154 --> 00:53:41,058 which is less than the amount of money I 1123 00:53:41,058 --> 00:53:43,746 spent on my local coffee shop getting my 1124 00:53:43,746 --> 00:53:45,346 coffee this morning because unfortunately 1125 00:53:45,346 --> 00:53:49,718 I broke our coffee maker But yes So join 1126 00:53:49,718 --> 00:53:51,446 us in the difference maker community You 1127 00:53:51,446 --> 00:53:56,614 can go to ww patreon.com a a world of 1128 00:53:56,614 --> 00:53:59,166 difference and in in on this conversation 1129 00:53:59,166 --> 00:54:00,806 with Lance That's exclusive for our 1130 00:54:00,806 --> 00:54:02,902 difference maker community and all the 1131 00:54:02,902 --> 00:54:03,994 previous conversations that are available 1132 00:54:03,994 --> 00:54:08,854 to you there that are just categorized in 1133 00:54:08,854 --> 00:54:10,058 different sections now because there's so 1134 00:54:10,058 --> 00:54:12,526 many of them So when you join in you get 1135 00:54:12,526 --> 00:54:14,894 access to all these different exclusive 1136 00:54:14,894 --> 00:54:17,630 interviews and you can also vote in polls 1137 00:54:17,630 --> 00:54:20,622 where we want to hear from you Your voice 1138 00:54:20,622 --> 00:54:22,858 matters and your perspective matters 1139 00:54:22,858 --> 00:54:24,654 Obviously that's the point of this podcast 1140 00:54:24,654 --> 00:54:26,798 and we love it when difference makers 1141 00:54:26,798 --> 00:54:28,498 speak into what you want to hear Are there 1142 00:54:28,498 --> 00:54:30,334 guests that you want us to bring on Are 1143 00:54:30,334 --> 00:54:32,254 there topics you want us to cover So we a 1144 00:54:32,254 --> 00:54:35,186 a poll going on until I think February 25 1145 00:54:35,186 --> 00:54:36,994 where you can join difference maker and 1146 00:54:36,994 --> 00:54:40,374 speak into that Let us know You can also 1147 00:54:40,374 --> 00:54:42,694 do a free trial for a week to see if you 1148 00:54:42,694 --> 00:54:45,606 like it and then join if you want to But 1149 00:54:45,606 --> 00:54:47,894 I'd love to have you there in in this 1150 00:54:47,894 --> 00:54:49,670 conversation with Lance because it's a 1151 00:54:49,670 --> 00:54:52,166 very special one And all other other ones 1152 00:54:52,166 --> 00:54:53,658 I love them all It's hard to choose like 1153 00:54:53,658 --> 00:54:55,626 what's your favorite child I don't know I 1154 00:54:55,626 --> 00:54:57,366 love all our exclusive in in the 1155 00:54:57,366 --> 00:54:58,986 difference maker community and I love it 1156 00:54:58,986 --> 00:55:01,834 when new people join It makes me happy to 1157 00:55:01,834 --> 00:55:04,078 have new perspectives in in and you can dm 1158 00:55:04,078 --> 00:55:07,486 me on the platform you can comment you can 1159 00:55:07,486 --> 00:55:10,526 give us your two cent worth to help us a a 1160 00:55:10,526 --> 00:55:11,758 difference together bring your differences 1161 00:55:11,758 --> 00:55:13,374 around the table So pull up chair chair 1162 00:55:13,374 --> 00:55:15,054 with us in the difference maker community 1163 00:55:15,054 --> 00:55:16,258 would love to have you join us there where 1164 00:55:16,258 --> 00:55:19,950 we go a little bit deeper And I know that 1165 00:55:19,950 --> 00:55:21,234 this conversation can bring up a lot of 1166 00:55:21,234 --> 00:55:25,154 things for people And so if it has for you 1167 00:55:25,154 --> 00:55:28,854 just a a deep breath maybe several deep 1168 00:55:28,854 --> 00:55:31,958 breaths Look around and engage your senses 1169 00:55:31,958 --> 00:55:33,846 in way way that helps you be mindful and 1170 00:55:33,846 --> 00:55:36,390 care for your brain and your body Because 1171 00:55:36,390 --> 00:55:38,918 you matter and you are loved And I know 1172 00:55:38,918 --> 00:55:41,094 many of you are spreading love all around 1173 00:55:41,094 --> 00:55:43,290 the world by caring so deeply for people 1174 00:55:43,290 --> 00:55:45,818 and working hard for people And I just 1175 00:55:45,818 --> 00:55:47,626 want you to know that you matter today and 1176 00:55:47,626 --> 00:55:49,866 you are worth taking care of And when you 1177 00:55:49,866 --> 00:55:52,730 take care of yourself a a person who's a 1178 00:55:52,730 --> 00:55:54,190 difference maker you're taking care of 1179 00:55:54,190 --> 00:55:57,242 others too So please do that for yourself 1180 00:55:57,242 --> 00:56:00,686 You deserve to be healthy and you deserve 1181 00:56:00,686 --> 00:56:03,758 space to just be And I just want you to 1182 00:56:03,758 --> 00:56:05,646 know that you cared cared for today as you 1183 00:56:05,646 --> 00:56:07,346 listen to this podcast because it can 1184 00:56:07,346 --> 00:56:09,746 bring up some things for people So do take 1185 00:56:09,746 --> 00:56:11,950 care of yourself because you matter and 1186 00:56:11,950 --> 00:56:13,906 you're loved And as all of you around the 1187 00:56:13,906 --> 00:56:17,090 world are doing so many incredible 1188 00:56:17,090 --> 00:56:19,478 inspiring spectacular amazing outstanding 1189 00:56:19,478 --> 00:56:21,814 things or you're just loving the people 1190 00:56:21,814 --> 00:56:23,926 right where you are in your own home which 1191 00:56:23,926 --> 00:56:28,390 is also and and spectacular and amazing 1192 00:56:28,390 --> 00:56:30,870 Thank you for the work that each of you do 1193 00:56:30,870 --> 00:56:35,734 and for just being yourself spreading your 1194 00:56:35,734 --> 00:56:36,918 differences around the world in ways that 1195 00:56:36,918 --> 00:56:39,014 make our world a better place just by 1196 00:56:39,014 --> 00:56:42,330 being you Keep a a difference wherever you